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Unread 11 Feb 2011, 02:11   #1
tulsa
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Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

There are 625 planets in the top 10 alliances, and in my opinion this is not enough. A simple piece of the solution in my eyes is to bring back the farms. There are several universal benefits to farming:

1) We could do away with MH's (they're kind of pointless, as I have noticed some people are still farming in limited capacity under the radar anyhow).
2) This protects the new players from constant bashing. They're still going to get hit as soon as they're too 'juicy', but actives would have a better option.
3) More roids = more fun. I missed quite a few rounds, but noone has actually achieved the 5000 roids quest since I've been back.
4) Jagex makes more $ when I pay for my battle planet and my scan planet.
5) This takes away the necessity for alliance scanners. What a useless waste of actives, and what an unneccesary disadvantage for new players and new alliances. They fill the very definition of a support planet fs.
6) It does take skill to properly manage and protect your farms, adding yet another wrinkle of complexity to the game.

Any other thoughts, pro or con, are both welcomed and encouraged! Flame on trolls!
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Unread 11 Feb 2011, 04:36   #2
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

Allowing a second planet is a good solution. Then people can chose if they want to farm it, make it a scan planet or whatever.
But I would calculate the ranking score of a player with the average score of his 2 planets.
I'd prefer if the 2nd planet is the same race as the the first.
2nd planet would have to be in another cluster.
I see then no need for any limitation in def/attack.
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Unread 11 Feb 2011, 11:57   #3
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

tulsa, I kind of resent you showing up in January 2011 and preaching a load of shit which has already been extensively discussed in the past as if they're "new ideas".

You're not original, your ideas aren't original; please stop talking to us as if we haven't already had every idea imagineable shot down or outright ignored in the last 11 years.
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Unread 11 Feb 2011, 13:19   #4
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

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tulsa, I kind of resent you showing up in January 2011 and preaching a load of shit which has already been extensively discussed in the past as if they're "new ideas".

You're not original, your ideas aren't original; please stop talking to us as if we haven't already had every idea imagineable shot down or outright ignored in the last 11 years.
My bad, I didn't realize everyone had given up. I can live with unoriginal. Thanks for the feedback.
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Unread 11 Feb 2011, 13:49   #5
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

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My bad, I didn't realize everyone had given up. I can live with unoriginal. Thanks for the feedback.
If you'd have been around for even the last 2 years participating in the online discussions, you'd have given up too. Comments on the suggestions forums generally get ignored. And when I say generally, I mean almost always. Most suggestions (beyond the really really minor tweaking) that might help improve the game fall into 1 of 2 categories: suggestions that everyone likes (rare) but are beyond the capability of PATeam to implement OR suggestions that are beyond the capability of PATeam and people can't agree whether they're a good idea or not.

Ultimately, most changes - whilst a lot would change the dynamic of the game (whether for the better or not is another issue, but some would argue that any change would at least keep the game a little fresh) - the extent to which the code would need to be redesigned represents a workload too great to justify the time taken. Especially considering PATeam is mostly volunteers doing shit in their spare time.

This suggestion in particular (yours) has been brought up many times. Scan planets, 'moons' (similar thing), multiple accounts in general, are all things that have been talked about extensively. Not only have most of the discussions been completely ignored by anyone even remotely connected to the decision making progress, but the ones that weren't were dismissed.

The multihunters are f*cking awful. They are nothing more now than the fun police. They are all that is wrong with the world of the politically corrent police and rule PA with a totalitarian whim. Planetarion is private property, it's owned by Jagex and all they need to do to avoid comeuppance is put a disclaimer in the EULA saying "All characters and events in this game-- even those based on real people-- are entirely fictional. The following two months will contain coarse language, and due to its content should not be played by anyone" or something and they could relax a little.

But no.

Multihunters will continue to be overbearing, humourless and excessively sensitive ninnies who baulk at the possibility that sometime, somewhere in the world, people will be offended by something they read on the internet. BUT, the truly unfortunate thing is not that we half these halfwits policing the game incase something is said or written that somebody might get offended by, but instead that there are people who would actually get upset by something they see or read on the internet.

All I'm saying is read over previous threads and get a feel for a) the efforts the community has made to date to change the game for the better and b) the complete and utter lack of response/results the community has gotten from such discussions. Your posting suggests you've clearly not done this and as a result your suggestion and attitude comes across as naive and excessively patronizing.
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Unread 11 Feb 2011, 14:01   #6
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

Well Kenny, you've not made any negative comments on my ideas (outside of my being unoriginal) so I must assume you agree with them. And I know I'm not the first to suggest the idea of bringing back multiplicty, I just think it's an idea worth fighting for so please don't give up on it.

I asked for 2 cents and I got 5...thanks!
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Unread 11 Feb 2011, 15:12   #7
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

I'd say you are the most humble poster I have ever seen on these forums Tulsa. cudos for that. You made Kenny mellow down and actually explain what he was trying to bluntly blurt out. That's an achievement.
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Unread 11 Feb 2011, 16:18   #8
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

Well he wasn't being rude, so figured that I'd give him the time of day. I'd say that perhaps "humblest poster ever" is a bit premature at only 13 posts (true at the time of writing) though.

tulsa, sorry - most people have given up. I stick around on the forums for the banter of some of the people who I've been having banter with for over 5 years in PA, and some even as much as 8 years over various other PA clones. That's a long time to be talking to any group of people, and even if the hobby we all used to have in common is now nothing more than a shadow of its former self, the people can sometimes be ok to talk to.

I can guarantee you there is probably fewer than 200 people that play the game because they actually enjoy it. The people not in top 10 alliances play to kill time/are bored/have nothing better to do/are curious. Then of the people in the top 10 alliances, they play for the community aspect. It's about sharing in victories or consoling in defeats. Mostly it's just about hanging around on IRC telling knock-knock jokes or whatever.

The game itself is shit and I can't wait until its replacement comes along (in the form of Spinner's new game).
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Unread 11 Feb 2011, 22:43   #9
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

No offense taken. I played rounds 2-12ish and came back about 5 rounds ago to find the game a shell of its former self. I can see why those who stuck around might be bitter.

I'm not suggesting that 1 line of code is written to make this change. I am simply suggesting that we're allowed to own as many counts as we choose. Take some workload off of the MH's, take some pressure off of new players, level the scanning advantages, rejuvenate the universe, and let us farm. The game will not turn into a complete farmfest as long as xp whores like myself are still around.

I'll try to devote some time this weekend to finding old posts on the topic and studying what others have had to say in the past. I've never been much for online forums, so please excuse the n00b.
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Unread 12 Feb 2011, 02:33   #10
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

I do understand what kenny is saying I've mainly stayed around and active for the communial irc aspect rather then the game as I guess I'm in kennys 8 year window if not longer.

But I would like changes as otherwise when spinner game comes out most players will just go there for something fresh ill personally play both brutality of gamers will only play 1 game at a time.

So keep up fighting tulsa my good mate and who knows.
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Unread 7 Mar 2011, 03:15   #11
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

Once you win this game or your gal does it's all about the mates you have made along the way and the enmies begging in irc to stop owning them cause there active funny times this game was great I'm thinking of bringing myself back but to truly play this hardcore you can't have a job so it would be hard to make a real come back to this game but I might part take for 13 posts his point were same point I've seen before farms still go on,but I agree humble , honest post, I just cant believe I remembered my login after ten years p m s l
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Well he wasn't being rude, so figured that I'd give him the time of day. I'd say that perhaps "humblest poster ever" is a bit premature at only 13 posts (true at the time of writing) though.

tulsa, sorry - most people have given up. I stick around on the forums for the banter of some of the people who I've been having banter with for over 5 years in PA, and some even as much as 8 years over various other PA clones. That's a long time to be talking to any group of people, and even if the hobby we all used to have in common is now nothing more than a shadow of its former self, the people can sometimes be ok to talk to.

I can guarantee you there is probably fewer than 200 people that play the game because they actually enjoy it. The people not in top 10 alliances play to kill time/are bored/have nothing better to do/are curious. Then of the people in the top 10 alliances, they play for the community aspect. It's about sharing in victories or consoling in defeats. Mostly it's just about hanging around on IRC telling knock-knock jokes or whatever.

The game itself is shit and I can't wait until its replacement comes along (in the form of Spinner's new game).
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Unread 7 Mar 2011, 16:19   #12
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

If you want to multi just do it anyway.
I'm sure loads of people are.

It is not rocket surgery to figure out how to acquire another ip address to proxy a second web connection through so that the MH don't know it is the same person.

Then all you have to do is ensure that the interaction between the two planets isn't too suspicious.
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Unread 8 Mar 2011, 10:29   #13
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tulsa View Post
There are 625 planets in the top 10 alliances, and in my opinion this is not enough. A simple piece of the solution in my eyes is to bring back the farms. There are several universal benefits to farming:

5) This takes away the necessity for alliance scanners. What a useless waste of actives, and what an unneccesary disadvantage for new players and new alliances. They fill the very definition of a support planet fs.
No they don't, read the rules.
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Unread 8 Mar 2011, 11:18   #14
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

The rules are useless. Not because I don't agree with them (I don't, but that's another story), but because they are ambiguous enough to allow or disallow anything and everything, completely dependent on the whims of whatever MH happens to have glanced over your planet first.
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Unread 8 Mar 2011, 15:11   #15
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

i know.

What i was trying to point out is, that planets in tag supporting the tag members with their service, is not a support planet as far as the rules of Planetarion are concerned.
  1. Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy.
The keyword is unfair. It is in no way unfair to have scan planets in your tag. The game mechanics even support scan planets as a normal part of an alliance. Every alliance can have scan planets in tag, so no single alliance is treated unfair.
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Unread 8 Mar 2011, 15:30   #16
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

There are several universal benefits to farming:

1) We could do away with MH's (they're kind of pointless, as I have noticed some people are still farming in limited capacity under the radar anyhow).

Why could we do away with Multihunters? Your point is invalid. There would be people farming other planets then their own, or having more then the allowed number of secundary planets, or all kinds of other abuse.

2) This protects the new players from constant bashing. They're still going to get hit as soon as they're too 'juicy', but actives would have a better option.

Nonsense. First of all new players are not neccesarily owners of weak planets. Second, assuming you mean weak planets that are bashed, the game mechanics dont allow to hit small planets, so they are already protected. Third, the farm planets would usually be smaller, and thus be able to attack the weak players and newbies, and then the main lpanets would farm the secundary planet(s). Weak players and newbies would as a result get MORE bashing, simply because the main planets can bash below the the bash limit 'by proxy'.

3) More roids = more fun. I missed quite a few rounds, but noone has actually achieved the 5000 roids quest since I've been back.

How does more roids make more fun? Thats's like thinking that cheaper ships = more ships = more fun. In the end, the battles are the same.

4) Jagex makes more $ when I pay for my battle planet and my scan planet.

You really want Jagex to earn more from you while they do nothing to make the game better?

5) This takes away the necessity for alliance scanners. What a useless waste of actives, and what an unneccesary disadvantage for new players and new alliances. They fill the very definition of a support planet fs.

I somehow doubt that people would make scan planets out of their secundary planet(s). They have alliance scanners, so it would be more profitable to develop a strong secundary planet, to get more roids, ships and XP from it/them.

6) It does take skill to properly manage and protect your farms, adding yet another wrinkle of complexity to the game.

The game doesn't require much skill to start with, and it would not require more skill, just more time.

Aside from my comments on your reasons, there are several other reasons why having more then one planet is unwise. Let's name a few (some might be theoretical):
  • You could signup free planets en masse and form alliances with them
  • Free planets don't increase Jagex revenue
  • Real wars would be less likely to occur, you can simply farm your planets
  • Danger of people farming their planets to top 20
  • Massive abuse in general is possible, i'm sure, for those who are able to think up some ways. (For instance: sign up 4 planets, BP them, 3 of them donate one of them, then exile the main planet to a better galaxy)
  • Multiple planets will not result in more players. So how is a bigge runiverse iwth more planets more fun? We need more PLAYERS.
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Unread 8 Mar 2011, 16:41   #17
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

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The keyword is unfair. It is in no way unfair to have scan planets in your tag. The game mechanics even support scan planets as a normal part of an alliance. Every alliance can have scan planets in tag, so no single alliance is treated unfair.
You missed my point. We all know roughly what is allowed and what is not. However, that knowledge is based on which actions are punished and which are not, as well as on statements made by indivudual (head) multihunters on the forums and irc, not on the one true interpretation of the rules.

Besides, what is unfair and what is fair is a judgement that can only be made by people who have been in the community for years. If you disregard that experience (be a newbie), depending on the way you interpret the rules, having a scan planet could be legal or illegal, escorting could be legal or illegal, defwhoring could be legal or illegal. That's why the rules are useless.

P.S. Use the quote tags.
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Unread 8 Mar 2011, 16:48   #18
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

I was merely reacting to the use of the words: support planet. Nothing else :-)
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Unread 18 Dec 2011, 06:41   #19
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

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There are several universal benefits to farming:

1) Why could we do away with Multihunters? Your point is invalid. There would be people farming other planets then their own, or having more then the allowed number of secundary planets, or all kinds of other abuse.[/list]
My suggestions wasn't that players are allowed one extra planet, but unlimited planets. If you're referring to all the other censorship and player control, well, they'll need to get a new name. Seems silly to me that 'multihunter' is the blanket term for those enforcing the rules.
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2) Nonsense. First of all new players are not neccesarily owners of weak planets. Second, assuming you mean weak planets that are bashed, the game mechanics dont allow to hit small planets, so they are already protected. Third, the farm planets would usually be smaller, and thus be able to attack the weak players and newbies, and then the main lpanets would farm the secundary planet(s). Weak players and newbies would as a result get MORE bashing, simply because the main planets can bash below the the bash limit 'by proxy'.[/list]
First - agreed. Second - Game mechanics don't effectively prevent bashing imo. Third - A good farmer keeps his farm within striking range of his top planet, and in my experiences farms were generally used to give a planet a roid boost early and then used for scans later.
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3) How does more roids make more fun? Thats's like thinking that cheaper ships = more ships = more fun. In the end, the battles are the same.[/list]
If size didn't matter, people wouldn't share news of LOL waves to wow one another.
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4) You really want Jagex to earn more from you while they do nothing to make the game better?[/list]
I'd rather they not charge at all, but they're going to either way aren't they? And it's not a requirement, it's an option that some would choose.
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5) I somehow doubt that people would make scan planets out of their secundary planet(s). They have alliance scanners, so it would be more profitable to develop a strong secundary planet, to get more roids, ships and XP from it/them.[/list]
Every farm I owned in the olden days had excellent scanning capabilities. I'd rather have my own scan planet than rely on someone else to always be online and available - especially if I'm a new player in a small alliance. How much does an alliance spend on scans in a round anyhow? Another system where the bigger, more experienced alliances maintain a significant advantage and growth of the game is stunted.
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6) The game doesn't require much skill to start with, and it would not require more skill, just more time.[/list]
Successful farming is more difficult than you might think.

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Aside from my comments on your reasons, there are several other reasons why having more then one planet is unwise. Let's name a few (some might be theoretical):
  • [A]You could signup free planets en masse and form alliances with them
    [b]Free planets don't increase Jagex revenue
    [C]Real wars would be less likely to occur, you can simply farm your planets
    [D]Danger of people farming their planets to top 20
    [E]Massive abuse in general is possible, i'm sure, for those who are able to think up some ways. (For instance: sign up 4 planets, BP them, 3 of them donate one of them, then exile the main planet to a better galaxy)
    [F]Multiple planets will not result in more players. So how is a bigge runiverse iwth more planets more fun? We need more PLAYERS.
[A] True, but how far can that really get you? We both know that is ultimately a failed plan.
[b] LOL - what's their revenue now, a few hundred euros?
[C] I think there is enough political animosity and desire to win to keep wars alive.
[D] If it's legal, where's the danger? I can see the farmer/warrior conflicts and battles now.
[E] Get rid of donations or decrease the donation ceiling. That system gets abused now!
[F] Unless you're paying considerable attention to your farm, you can't just init and hit every night. A bigger universe with more planets means more targets and more transfer of asteroids. If collecting and protecting your asteroids is the point of the game, then why not make more of that happen? The majority of people prefer to see a 4-3 football match to a nil-nil match...offense is sexeh!
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Unread 18 Dec 2011, 10:10   #20
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

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Seems silly to me that 'multihunter' is the blanket term for those enforcing the rules.
It's just history, from back when little else was illegal.

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If size didn't matter, people wouldn't share news of LOL waves to wow one another.
Absolute size does not matter, but relative size does. Giving everyone 10 times more roids will not make the game any better but in fact has effects you would not expect.

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I'd rather have my own scan planet than rely on someone else to always be online and available - especially if I'm a new player in a small alliance.
Indeed. Scanning has been broken for a long time.

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Originally Posted by tulsa View Post
How much does an alliance spend on scans in a round anyhow?
Alliance taxes are usually 4 or 5 percent in the early round (scans are relatively expensive when incomes are low, and no one scans for themselves) and go down to 2 or 3 percent in the late round. That's basically a top 3 planet worth of scans. Consider the length alliances go to to defend their top 3 planets. So yes, scans cost quite a lot.



Me, I'm pro-farming. Ideally, I'd like to see it incorporated in the game, as opposed to just allowing people to have an unlimited number of accounts which they have to log into and out of. There are a number of caveats, though.

First and foremost: no botting. I realize this is just as unenforceable as the no farming rule, but the game should be played by humans, not computer programs. Thankfully, botting has long been extinct, so it seems that enforcement is not actually necessary.

Second, it should not be possible to init 1000 roids on your farm the tick before you land. To that end, the entire roid initing system would have to be overturned and changed so that you can only find init a certain number of roids every tick, reversely proportional to the number of roids you already have. I'd automate finding roids (introduce a building for it? ships? research?), but keep initing a manual process, in which you can have a backlog of a certain number of uninitiated roids (more than 10, less than 100), but if you don't initiate them, the overrun is lost forever.

This makes sure your farm isn't actually just your farm, everyone would be able to attack it. Managing multiple planets should take more effort than signing up 4 planets at round start, attacking the smallest 3 every night and initing roids for them a minute before landing.

Third, people should not be allowed to have multiple planets in the same galaxy, in order to cut off defense by farms. Defense is a social construct in PA, and giving people the option to defend themselves with their own planets would be a big nail in PA's coffin. Of course there's no reason why I should not be allowed to defend Benneh with my farms, just not myself.

Not allowing people to have multiple planets in the same galaxy would also make it much less likely that a galaxy would be crippled because there's 4 farms in them, all owned by the same person. No buddypacking for farms either, for the same reason: 4 farms in a single galaxy, except now owned by 4 different people. It would be best if this were hard-coded into the game, but farms should be fairly easy to recognize, so I wouldn't be dead set against allowing the MHs to enforce it. On a side-note, I see no reason why farms should not be allowed to join tags.

Fourth, ship stealing might be a problem. Setting your farms to attack your main (Zikonian) planet with useful Cathaar ships would very quickly turn your main planet into a impenetrable fortress. Banning ship but not roid farming is just another arbitrary limitation, like the ban on farming itself that we're so busy getting rid of in this thread, except that the ban on ship farming has some justification: it would make ship stealing so much more powerful that it would destroy the race balance. Right now, I can't think of any way to prevent that other than a complete ban on ship farming. I'm not happy with that either, though.

Fifth, the round would need to be made longer. Already, the first 500 ticks are basically just an introduction for the round proper. We saw it again this round, when Ultores got banged hard in the early round, but still got into the lead in the late round. With the introduction of farming, there would be even less reason to go to war than there is now. The shorter the "proper round" is, and the fewer wars there are, the less skill matters. Roid race rounds are no fun. If r44 had been 200 ticks shorter, ND would've won.

Making rounds longer would cut right into PA's revenue (which, in answer to your earlier question, I'd estimate around 3000 GBP a round) though, so it's unlikely to actually be done. (But I guess that goes for everything I've said in this post, so heh.)


I'm sure there are things I haven't thought of in this past half hour, but these are the things I could come up with off the top of my head.
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Unread 22 Dec 2011, 04:44   #21
tulsa
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Re: Protect the Newbs & Grow the Game, Bring Back Farms!!!

Bah, Tek was right. This is a played out topic and I had my answer before I ever posed the question. I haven't been around for a while and upon return found Remy had provided a quality response and thought is deserved like kind. Apologies for the bump.
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