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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:35   #101
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Re: donation whores

Don't cry JBG
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:38   #102
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It's only unfair if it's against the rules. It's a worse than meaningless word in any other circumstances.
Rules dont define what is unfair or fair, The new private galaxy system is unfair for new players and will likely be changed back next round but its allowed this round.

If the donation rules are changed next round, would it make it unfair?

Quote:
Yes, it is.
No it isnt.

Quote:
See what I mean by 'arbitrary'?
Nope.

Quote:
First off all, this is a logical fallacy. I don't have to do the stuff I advocate in order for my points to be valid. Secondly, you picked just about the worst person to pull it on. I did XP in r16 in ROCK. I was personally involved with the no roid cov op strategy in r22. I was in the mass-dist galaxy in r24 (the round before Ascendancy as an alliance tried it). I have probably introduced or participated in more revolutionary strategies than anyone in the last 20 rounds. So, er, **** off.
Congratulations on your revolutionary strategies. However, none of those strategys directly resulted in you being well ahead of everyone and all had major drawbacks stopping you.

Quote:
The funny thing is, whenever someone introduces a new strategy, it invariably gets destroyed the round after. XP? Ruined after r16. Dists? Ruined after r25. Cov ops? Ruined after r22. Donations? Probably ruined after this round. And invariably, it's not people like me that ruin them. It's people like you.
or you ruin them by taking them to the extremes which no-one else had yet thought of so they got nerfed.

Quote:
]
Do X or Y but not Z! But thank God you're not being arbitrary.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
You haven't, at any point, given an even vaguely objective definition of "unfair". So yes, your argument does boil down to "I don't like this".
When someone is allowed to gain a 2x+ value lead over everyone else.

or in a broad sense

Unfair is when someone is allowed to gain a huge lead over someone else through other means than the core gameplay or by means that havent yet been thought of within the core gameplay which offer them a major advantage over everyone else.
Core Gameplay: Attacking, Defending, Cov-ops, Scanning.

Quote:
This is an insane use of the word unfair. Purely in the context in which you use it you could replace "didn't have donation whores" with didn't get alliance def or anything else. Note that I'm not saying that they're exactly the same thing here, I'm just saying the actual argument is completely meaningless.
How is it completly meaningless, the game is based around alliance or galaxy play it is not based around getting people to donate to you.

Quote:
This isn't an argument. It's a statement.
A correct statement.

Quote:
This is almost an argument but you still don't provide any reasons for why you shouldn't be able to achieve high value through donation whoring.
As its an unfair advantage to allow one planet to be donated so many resources and gain the #1 rank just through donations. We dont allow planets crashing on purpose, we dont allow planets donation there roids, we shouldnt allow planets donating there resources either.

Quote:
Edit: Seriously light, it's not a coincidence that mz and my response's are almost exactly the same. At this point I'd advise just going out and looking up what most of the words you're using actually mean, and then try to apply them to pa and figure out how they fit in.
You're in the same alliance which i highly suspect has spoked about this thread and my replys. You've also probably discussed this donation system in great deal and came up with your own lines or reasonings.

o the discussion of arbitary lines though, anything could be it? Why stop at 50mil max? thats just a line in the sand. Why not allow those 7 planets to donate all there resources to him all round?
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:47   #103
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Rules dont define what is unfair or fair, The new private galaxy system is unfair for new players and will likely be changed back next round but its allowed this round.

If the donation rules are changed next round, would it make it unfair?
Yes. Arguably, the new private galaxy system is unfavourable for new players, but fairness doesn't come into it. Everyone starts with the same amount of resources. What they do with it after the first tick is entirely (within the rules and game mechanics) up to them.

Honestly, I don't understand what the word "fair" in this context even means. Since others have made similar statements, perhaps you could define it for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Congratulations on your revolutionary strategies. However, none of those strategys directly resulted in you being well ahead of everyone and all had major drawbacks stopping you.
I refer to earlier in the thread, where I mention the drawbacks this has for BlueArmy as well as for the rest of the galaxy, and where I point out we haven't yet seen tick 100; altogether perhaps a bit too early to be declaring winners?

On a sidenote, I ended 13th during the dist round (and Benneh ended 9th) and would have ended top40 during the cov op round if I hadn't ****ed up. I doubt BlueArmy will be doing much better than that, but we'll see!

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
o the discussion of arbitary lines though, anything could be it? Why stop at 50mil max? thats just a line in the sand. Why not allow those 7 planets to donate all there resources to him all round?
No objections from me.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:49   #104
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
When someone is allowed to gain a 2x+ value lead over everyone else.

Unfair is when someone is allowed to gain a huge lead over someone else through other means than the core gameplay or by means that havent yet been thought of within the core gameplay which offer them a major advantage over everyone else.
Core Gameplay: Attacking, Defending, Cov-ops, Scanning.
How fantastically arbitrary. But you don't need that many words my dear. What you're trying to ban is called "creativity". It's worth pointing out that cov-ops, xp-whoring and scanning have all been considered exploits at various points due to their strength.

Quote:
How is it completly meaningless, the game is based around alliance or galaxy play it is not based around getting people to donate to you.
And I quote the front page of planetarion

Quote:
For many eons the Planetarion universe has been rife with war and destruction. Five dominant races fight side by side or kin against kin, galaxy against galaxy, planet against planet in the ever growing struggle for dominance. Alliances clash with one another, and the valuable resource asteroids are stolen and reclaimed. It is your task to join this chaotic system, and survive.
I saw planets, races, alliances and galaxies mentioned there. Nothing about core gameplay or you have to based your round around alliance or galaxy play.

Quote:
A correct statement.
Why? You don't just get to randomly assert things and demand everyone else accept them as true.


Quote:
As its an unfair advantage to allow one planet to be donated so many resources and gain the #1 rank just through donations. We dont allow planets crashing on purpose, we dont allow planets donation there roids, we shouldnt allow planets donating there resources either.
But we do. We ban all forms of farming, even if the planets benefiting are smaller ones. We're not doing that here. Clearly it's different.

Quote:
You're in the same alliance which i highly suspect has spoked about this thread and my replys. You've also probably discussed this donation system in great deal and came up with your own lines or reasonings.
No. Certainly not with mz about what he was actually saying. Most of it (being honest) has consisted of various people calling you stupid and laughing about attacking you.

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o the discussion of arbitary lines though, anything could be it? Why stop at 50mil max? thats just a line in the sand. Why not allow those 7 planets to donate all there resources to him all round?
Indeed. I'd allow that.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:51   #105
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
It gives an unfair advantage to a planet...
Most of ur arguments focus on how unfair this is by giving an unfair advantage to a single planet when really at this early stage individual ranks are well nigh irrelevent, the spirit of this game is about groups until the last week or two, their trick is only a simple redistribution amongst a group, they will all continue to play as they normally would have.
It is quite usual for booji or I to get to the middle of the round and realise we are not getting anywhere and dedicate their round to pushing the other up; If U recall r29 booji did it for me but by pushing me up because i was the more solid planet less likely to loose roids, nevertheless I ultimately managed to swing it by pulling him up with xp lands at the end, he didnt sacrifice a chance for a higher rank by supporting me in the middle because he then wouldnt have gotten the boost at the end, we would both have ended lower.
I dont see why this is different at all save for being on a grander scale and through donations rather than letting one person of a partnership land; they hope to improve everyones chances not just the donation recipient, they are supporting him to support themselves that is the very core of this game.

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
.... but instead of being bitter for once, I thought to myself hey, we can take this idea ....
Golan wasn't bitter, this is earth shattering news! How did it pass the world by?
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:52   #106
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Re: donation whores

I actually didn't know the Ministry folks were planning this until I saw a planet at #1 with way more value than I thought possible. As for talking to JBG about this thread:

03-23 16:30:07 <@mz> yeah jbg, that is scarily alike
03-23 16:30:09 <@mz> get out of my head etc!
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 18:58   #107
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
How fantastically arbitrary. But you don't need that many words my dear. What you're trying to ban is called "creativity". It's worth pointing out that cov-ops, xp-whoring and scanning have all been considered exploits at various points due to their strength.
The main difference here though is that now several people think its considered cheating, and are pissed at the ones doing it, rather than being pissed at shit code from the PA team?

I cant remember anyone being pissed at people xp hoeing, just annoyed that it was possible as they didnt think thats how PA should be. Same with cov ops....
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 19:17   #108
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
I cant remember anyone being pissed at people xp hoeing, just annoyed that it was possible as they didnt think thats how PA should be. Same with cov ops....
I can remember getting told multiple times in round 16 that I was cheating by playing for xp (although being #1 was obviously the main thing as god knows nobody cared before that), and there were far more people who accused me/ascendancy of ruining the game through our choices (tons of the latter, less of the former). There were also other hilarious bits in r16 like when Fish called for jester to be banned from the game. I don't really remember cov-ops being called out as cheating (although the accusation of ruining the game was definitely leveled). (Ab)using scans, in r10/10.5 you gained more score through scanning than through producing ships as far as I recall, was definitely considered cheating at the time (in fact I think pateam might have nerfed it midround).


They were wrong then. Anyone thinking this is cheating is wrong now. You have to break the rules for it to be cheating. (And yes every spastic who whined about exilition and support planets in r15 was wrong then as well).

Edit: Found the scans one in case anyone feels like boring themselves to death http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=177464
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Last edited by JonnyBGood; 23 Mar 2010 at 19:26.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 20:17   #109
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I refer to earlier in the thread, where I mention the drawbacks this has for BlueArmy as well as for the rest of the galaxy, and where I point out we haven't yet seen tick 100; altogether perhaps a bit too early to be declaring winners?
By that logic, we should allow:
1. Alliance funds to be donated as they want, with no limits. An ally should be able to do what they want, if they want to sacrifice there start in order to build up one planet, they should be able to!
2. Allow alliances to attack within there tag so that they can donate ships to Ziks or salvage. One person will sacrifice his ships for a planet to grow!
3. Allow alliances to attack within there tag so that they can donate roids to each other. One person should be able to sacrifice his roids to give them to another planet.

Those drawbacks you listed all apply to those rules, thats basically what the 'for' resource donations amounts to.

We've got rules in place at the moment to stop roid donations and ship donations, why not resource donations?

Im fairly sure that resource donations were not intended to be used to give someone a huge value lead over everyone else, instead they was to allow you to donate to lowbies, late signups and/or people who have recently been hit/took one for the team.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 20:25   #110
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
.

We've got rules in place at the moment to stop roid donations and ship donations, why not resource donations?

Im fairly sure that resource donations were not intended to be used to give someone a huge value lead over everyone else, instead they was to allow you to donate to lowbies, late signups and/or people who have recently been hit/took one for the team.
as stated earlier in the thread it was done (within game rules) to highlight how bad resource donations are and that they need to be fixed

if your going to continue sulking may i suggst a new game for you , you may have heard of it already but i believe it's perfect for you its called solitaire
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 20:28   #111
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Im fairly sure that resource donations were not intended to be used to give someone a huge value lead over everyone else, instead they was to allow you to donate to lowbies, late signups and/or people who have recently been hit/took one for the team.
It is a sad reflection on the state of the game that something as awesome as the jonka attack would almost unquestionably be considered an exploit these days. It's a good thing you're only involved in pa though. Lord knows if you'd been involved in the development of the game of chess or something you'd have changed the rules every time a new gambit was thought up just because it wasn't the "intention" for the game to be resolved that way.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 20:29   #112
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Re: donation whores

The difference Light, is that they used a limited feature called galfund. Because of those limits, the galfund is at the galaxy's disposal to do whatever they want with it. WHATEVER THEY DO ITS LEGAL!

This applies to every single feature ever created in the history of man kind. If it has limits, you can per definition not cheat unless you exceed the limits, which in the case of the galfund is hardcoded into the game.

If lets say they hacked the game, and removed the limits, they could donate resources all round long. THEN it would be really unfair, and according to the rules, cheating.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 20:29   #113
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
It is a sad reflection on the state of the game that something as awesome as the jonka attack would almost unquestionably be considered an exploit these days. It's a good thing you're only involved in pa though. Lord knows if you'd been involved in the development of the game of chess or something you'd have changed the rules every time a new gambit was thought up just because it wasn't the "intention" for the game to be resolved that way.
Are you implying that PA rules should never change?
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 20:36   #114
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
By that logic, we should allow:
1. Alliance funds to be donated as they want, with no limits. An ally should be able to do what they want, if they want to sacrifice there start in order to build up one planet, they should be able to!
2. Allow alliances to attack within there tag so that they can donate ships to Ziks or salvage. One person will sacrifice his ships for a planet to grow!
3. Allow alliances to attack within there tag so that they can donate roids to each other. One person should be able to sacrifice his roids to give them to another planet.

Those drawbacks you listed all apply to those rules, thats basically what the 'for' resource donations amounts to.
The problem I have with these suggestions is that they fail to take into account the meaning of tags, which are representations of groups of people playing together. As such, in-tag attacking (by definition a hostile action) seems like a bad idea to me, you can't have your cake and eat it: you can either have their score in your tag or you can attack them. But sure, if someone wants to donate their ships, as far as I'm concerned he's free to leave the tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
We've got rules in place at the moment to stop roid donations and ship donations, why not resource donations?
I believe I've just said that I would remove those first two as well, so I fail to see the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Im fairly sure that resource donations were not intended to be used to give someone a huge value lead over everyone else, instead they was to allow you to donate to lowbies, late signups and/or people who have recently been hit/took one for the team.
Honestly? I don't give a shit what they were "intended" to do.

By the way, how's that definition of "fair" coming along?
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 20:37   #115
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Are you implying that PA rules should never change?
No. I was also not implying the moon was made of cheese in case you thought I was for some equally bizzare reason.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 21:18   #116
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Re: donation whores

Put simply, the support planet rule dilutes the effect of the no farming, no donations and no multis rules.

By saying that OOGOOA support is bad, it inherently implies that 'support' in galaxy is fine. If people think donations are things that should happen, they're just plain wrong. It is far better to have strong rules against farming, donations and multis than have rules that attack legitimately-run planets dedicated to defence, while destroying the rules that are key to having a proper game of Planetarion.

As with Greenhills in r21, the support planet rule has made what BlueArmy has done into a perfectly legitimate tactic. Without the support planet rule existing, both would be deleted near instantly. In fact, the rules would be so crystal clear, neither would attempt it.

Essentially they are doing what the likes of Videer and Singularity did in the early rounds, which was pretty much riding off other people's charity and why we need strong rules on multiing, farming and donations. At least defending requires effort, manpower and planning for goodness sake.

Incidents like this are exactly what happen when you listen to a rabble of people who dislike a particular tactic while having zero appreciation, understanding and respect for the game. So yeah, to the proponents of the support planet rule, you reap what you sow pretty much. You were all idiots when you brought this rule upon us and you're still idiots now.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 23:03   #117
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
As with Greenhills in r21, the support planet rule has made what BlueArmy has done into a perfectly legitimate tactic. Without the support planet rule existing, both would be deleted near instantly. In fact, the rules would be so crystal clear, neither would attempt it.
Incidentally, you can't probably put blame on Greenhills for anything apart from Elviz having his "sister/brother/monkey/dog" attend a scan planet. I think this is the round no ****.

Forget it. It's the wrong dicking round. God time passes.

Who won this one?
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 23:55   #118
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Re: donation whores

I like how Keizari basically comes up here every couple of months, drags up some 20 round old story and goes awol again.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 00:10   #119
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Re: donation whores

Light: How is the definition of 'fair' or 'fairness' going?
Also, have you looked up 'arbitrarily' up in the dictionary and do you understand what it means?
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 00:21   #120
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
Light: How is the definition of 'fair' or 'fairness' going?
I defined it ages ago. Maybe read the thread.

Quote:
Also, have you looked up 'arbitrarily' up in the dictionary and do you understand what it means?
Yes and i also pointed out alot of arbitrary rules in the game, there has to be a line somewhere.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 00:34   #121
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Re: donation whores

A wonderful definition which, amusingly enough, wouldn't have even vaguely applied to the situation for which the support planets rule, and that horrible phrase "unfair benefit", was introduced. In detail though, considering I didn't bother going into it much at all bar pointing out how horribly arbitrary it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
Unfair is when someone is allowed to gain a huge lead over someone else through other means than the core gameplay or by means that havent yet been thought of within the core gameplay which offer them a major advantage over everyone else.
Core Gameplay: Attacking, Defending, Cov-ops, Scanning.
A huge lead? You seem to imply that, for you, this is a 100% lead. So I'd take it that if they delayed it until say sunday evening, when the #2 planet was 470k score, and donated the resources to him you'd have no problem with it?

Ignoring the fact that you just invented the phrase "core gameplay" in terms of PA, and that all of those parts of the game were not in fact considered equally significant, or even in the same category of significance...actually wait I'd rather not ignore that. Regardless of the "intentions" of the game designers I'm pretty sure you don't get to decide which bits of the game are "core" elements.

Christ alone only knows what you mean by "or by means that havent yet been thought of within the core gameplay". Sounds exactly like the sort of wording someone would include in order to ban xp-whoring to be honest. Or anything creative or original whatsoever. You must be a pretty boring human being. Do you perhaps have a job in the civil service?
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 01:03   #122
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
A wonderful definition which, amusingly enough, wouldn't have even vaguely applied to the situation for which the support planets rule, and that horrible phrase "unfair benefit", was introduced. In detail though, considering I didn't bother going into it much at all bar pointing out how horribly arbitrary it was.
everythings arbitrary.

Quote:
A huge lead? You seem to imply that, for you, this is a 100% lead. So I'd take it that if they delayed it until say sunday evening, when the #2 planet was 470k score, and donated the resources to him you'd have no problem with it?
I would still have a problem with it but yes, i'd have less of a problem with it the less he gained compared to everyone else. As i previous said, I would like donations to only be allowed to players under the galaxy score and the amount allowed to be donated is only enough to take them up to the average galaxy score.

Quote:
Ignoring the fact that you just invented the phrase "core gameplay" in terms of PA, and that all of those parts of the game were not in fact considered equally significant, or even in the same category of significance...actually wait I'd rather not ignore that. Regardless of the "intentions" of the game designers I'm pretty sure you don't get to decide which bits of the game are "core" elements.
I said what i'd consider to be the core of PA? It was the simplest way to explain it and No i dont get to decide which bits of the game are "core" elements but you asked numerous times for my opinion and i gave it.

Quote:
Christ alone only knows what you mean by "or by means that havent yet been thought of within the core gameplay". Sounds exactly like the sort of wording someone would include in order to ban xp-whoring to be honest. Or anything creative or original whatsoever. You must be a pretty boring human being. Do you perhaps have a job in the civil service?
Why would you be able to ban xp-whoring? you gain XP via attacking? Might as well say ban roid-whoring lol.

Some creativity is obviously good in the game but you're trying to imply that any creativity is good no matter the effects on the game/rankings. Just bcus someone has done something no-one else thought of doesnt mean that its a good thing which should be kept, This is one of those things which should be stopped next round.

What exactly are the reasons for allowing donation whoring?
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 01:30   #123
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
everythings arbitrary.
You may as well have just said everything is turquoise for all the sense it would have made. Everything is not arbitrary. Some things are arbitrary. Here is a dictionary.com link to the word arbitrary.

Quote:
I would still have a problem with it but yes, i'd have less of a problem with it the less he gained compared to everyone else. As i previous said, I would like donations to only be allowed to players under the galaxy score and the amount allowed to be donated is only enough to take them up to the average galaxy score.
This sort of logic makes no sense. It's akin to saying you care less about farming if the planet farming benefits less. Obviously the impact is less but the actual rule broken is the exact same. And yes I'm supporting your proposal (or golan's, both seem fine to me as it's just not really that important a part of the game). However the question is over the definition of the word "unfair" at this point and whether or not it's possible to apply it in future cases. At this stage your definition is so loose I feel like I'm having sex with theamion's mother.

Quote:
I said what i'd consider to be the core of PA? It was the simplest way to explain it.
Rereading what you said yourself here can you seriously not understand why we're saying that your "arguments" against this are based on nothing more than personal preference.

Quote:
Why would you be able to ban xp-whoring? you gain XP via attacking? Might as well say ban roid-whoring lol.
At one point in this game xp whoring was not a tactic that had been "thought of within the core gameplay". Admittedly that's really, really terrible English so maybe you don't actually mean what I think you do. I thought that you were trying to say that there might be actions that you can take, while staying within your core elements group, that still provide an "unfair benefit".

Quote:
Some creativity is obviously good in the game but you're trying to imply that any creativity is good no matter the effects on the game/rankings. Just bcus someone has done something no-one else thought of doesnt mean that its a good thing which should be kept, This is one of those things which should be stopped next round.
I wasn't implying "any creativity is good". I was implying that any legal (as in does not break the rules) creativity is good within the context of the round. If you want to talk about evolving game design then you need to talk about evolving game design.

Quote:
What exactly are the reasons for allowing donation whoring?
Ah no. Unfortunately you don't get to shift the burden of proof. If you want to change something, you have to provide the arguments. Obviously the most straightforward argument would be that the more options, and the more room for creativity there is in a game, the more interesting it is to play. This is about as basic a principle of gameplay as you can find.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 01:41   #124
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
everythings arbitrary.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 02:31   #125
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
You may as well have just said everything is turquoise for all the sense it would have made. Everything is not arbitrary. Some things are arbitrary. Here is a dictionary.com link to the word arbitrary.
No, arbitrary seems to be your 'new word of the day'. PA has alot of arbitrary rules which ive already explained yet they are in the game, you cant keep using that as a reason not to do something as we've done it with almost every rule limit in the game; The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Quote:
This sort of logic makes no sense. It's akin to saying you care less about farming if the planet farming benefits less. Obviously the impact is less but the actual rule broken is the exact same. And yes I'm supporting your proposal (or golan's, both seem fine to me as it's just not really that important a part of the game). However the question is over the definition of the word "unfair" at this point and whether or not it's possible to apply it in future cases. At this stage your definition is so loose I feel like I'm having sex with theamion's mother.
Yes, i'd still care about it but if its less of a damaging impact then i wouldnt care as much as its not as much of an advantage. As ive said, if you'd like to see this sort of play in the future, why not do it via goverments allowing it to be properly balanced (giving a one-off resource bonus but sacrificing something else for the short term gain).

I tried to define what i regard as unfair in as broad a sense as i could.

Quote:
Rereading what you said yourself here can you seriously not understand why we're saying that your "arguments" against this are based on nothing more than personal preference.
Everyones arguments are based on nothing more than personal preference so far in this thread has been based on personal preference backed up by gameplay reasons why it shouldnt or should be in the game.

Quote:
At one point in this game xp whoring was not a tactic that had been "thought of within the core gameplay". Admittedly that's really, really terrible English so maybe you don't actually mean what I think you do. I thought that you were trying to say that there might be actions that you can take, while staying within your core elements group, that still provide an "unfair benefit".
It depends what you mean by XP whoring, In its current incarnation or in its previous states?

Quote:
I wasn't implying "any creativity is good". I was implying that any legal (as in does not break the rules) creativity is good within the context of the round. If you want to talk about evolving game design then you need to talk about evolving game design.
Ive said before, i dont mind it in this round.. Its perfectly fine this round, i highly disagree with it but its within the rules. All ive been arguing for is that its changed for next round as this 'creativity' gives too much of an advantage with little drawbacks for the planet in question. I even stated before that if you like this new tactic have it balanced within a goverment rather than through group donations.

Quote:
Ah no. Unfortunately you don't get to shift the burden of proof. If you want to change something, you have to provide the arguments. Obviously the most straightforward argument would be that the more options, and the more room for creativity there is in a game, the more interesting it is to play. This is about as basic a principle of gameplay as you can find.
I didnt realise this was a science debate, i thought it was a game design debate where by both sides for and against should give there reasons. In this instance the game design in question hasnt been debated and implemented, so its a debate weither we should keep this unintended consequence of the donation system or not.

As ive stated, you can keep this style of play where by you gain a early value lead but change it to goverments rather than donations. So realistically anyone can do it if they choose (rather than having to find 7 other people) and it can be balanced with other drawbacks directly related to the planet.

For example, A goverment which gives you a one-off bonus of X amount of resources at tick 1 (it has to tick, so you cant get the bonus then change goverment ) and the drawback is a much lower (if any) income bonus, so while you start with a nice value lead, you have to carry that through the round via staying ahead of everyone roid wise with your value/ships.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 02:57   #126
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
No, arbitrary seems to be your 'new word of the day'. PA has alot of arbitrary rules which ive already explained yet they are in the game, you cant keep using that as a reason not to do something as we've done it with almost every rule limit in the game; The line has to be drawn somewhere.
The dictionary called Light, they want their word back. PA does indeed have a lot of arbitrary rules. I am against all of them. I am pro-features, not limitations.

Quote:
Yes, i'd still care about it but if its less of a damaging impact then i wouldnt care as much as its not as much of an advantage. As ive said, if you'd like to see this sort of play in the future, why not do it via goverments allowing it to be properly balanced (giving a one-off resource bonus but sacrificing something else for the short term gain).

I tried to define what i regard as unfair in as broad a sense as i could.
I'd be pro that as well. But you fail to understand. I'm pro as many different possible ways of getting from A to B as are possible to fit into the game.


Quote:
Everyones arguments are based on nothing more than personal preference so far in this thread has been based on personal preference backed up by gameplay reasons why it shouldnt or should be in the game.
No, you haven't stated a single gameplay-related reason at any point in this thread. 'I don't like this' or 'it's unfair' aren't gameplay reasons. Do you actually know what gameplay means? I'll assume you don't, considering previous history. So I'll quote from wikipedia (don't worry, what I'm about to quote is all cited!)

Quote:
A review of game design literature reveals numerous definitions among computer and video game developers. For instance:

* "A series of interesting choices." -Sid Meier [1]
* "The structures of player interaction with the game system and with other players in the game."[2]
* "One or more causally linked series of challenges in a simulated environment."[3]
* "A good game is one that you can win by doing the unexpected and making it work."[4]
* "The experience of gameplay is one of interacting with a game design in the performance of cognitive tasks, with a variety of emotions arising from or associated with different elements of motivation, task performance and completion."[5]
Now, I'm not going to point at any particular element BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WOMAN CAN YOU MEET ME HALFWAY HERE?

Quote:
It depends what you mean by XP whoring, In its current incarnation or in its previous states?
Er, xp whoring is the same now as it was in round whatever the ****. The only thing different now is the xp formula, which means it's less effective in terms of long-term score accumulation.

Quote:
Ive said before, i dont mind it in this round.. Its perfectly fine this round, i highly disagree with it but its within the rules. All ive been arguing for is that its changed for next round as this 'creativity' gives too much of an advantage with little drawbacks for the planet in question. I even stated before that if you like this new tactic have it balanced within a goverment rather than through group donations.
Actually in post #65 in this very thread you argued that this fell within the remit of the support planets rule, and continued that argument in subsequent posts.

Quote:
I didnt realise this was a science debate, i thought it was a game design debate where by both sides for and against should give there reasons. In this instance the game design in question hasnt been debated and implemented, so its a debate weither we should keep this unintended consequence of the donation system or not.
You've rather failed to see the point. Absolutely none of your points have had anything to do with game design. If this thread was on the development forum (god forbid) by this stage I'd have asked pateam to either kick you for posting such irrelevant tripe over and over or kick me to save me from having to read someone pretending that talking about "fairness" and "exploits" has anything to do with improving a game.

Quote:
As ive stated, you can keep this style of play where by you gain a early value lead but change it to goverments rather than donations. So realistically anyone can do it if they choose (rather than having to find 7 other people) and it can be balanced with other drawbacks directly related to the planet.

For example, A goverment which gives you a one-off bonus of X amount of resources at tick 1 (it has to tick, so you cant get the bonus then change goverment ) and the drawback is a much lower (if any) income bonus, so while you start with a nice value lead, you have to carry that through the round via staying ahead of everyone roid wise with your value/ships.
Yes, this is a different option and no, I have no objection to this being introduced. However no, it is not the same option. No, it does not make sense to say you're "keeping this style of play". This style of play was a choice made by a group of planets who were attempting to boost one of their number while sacrificing, to some extent, the rest. Your proposed alternative sacrifices one part of a single planet's round to benefit another aspect of that same planet's round. It's in no way the same thing.

I would expect my six year old cousin to understand this.

He eats worms.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 04:18   #127
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Re: donation whores

in the spirit of not reading the thread, if you have such a problem with it, Light, why don't you attack him?
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 06:24   #128
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Re: donation whores

She already said she wouldn't because it'd be suicide. which is true, however i'm sure if an alliance could organize an attack it'd be more feasible. unfortunately people would rather complain than do something about it.

i think light's just saying that it's not fair because no one else could do it (wait i'm getting there) therefore he's the only one in the universe with that kind of a res 'bonus', thus propelling him way ahead of the #2 planet. what she's saying is that this should not be possible unless the option is available for everyone to do. hence her gov't idea, which would make it well known and available to everyone. though really a bunch of people choosing this gov't and getting extra bonus wouldn't be that much of a difference between upgrade/non-upgrade imho.

on the other side, many people knew about this possibility, but BA was the only one to actually do it. he did not break any rules, and the planets involved did not quit afterwards. this was not their only reason for signing up, the galaxy is attacking/defending like normal and (afaik) has no intentions of doing this again this round or doing a donate/quit scenario. so.. no one here cheated, this option has been available to do for a while, just no one else bothered to organize it.

in my opinion, BA's res bonus while pretty funny and looks awesome, probably doesn't help him much in the long term. if he could keep that lead the entire round and win, then yes i'd jump on the 'unfair' bandwagon. but it's still way early in the round to see how long he can maintain this lead, and how it will affect his galaxy this round. yah it sucks for the next couple ranks, as they're the only ones he can attack, but soon there will be too many for him to handle.

no rules were broken, so again in my opinion, no harm, no foul.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 07:00   #129
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Re: donation whores

Here's another angle I would've respected if you'd taken it:

This strategy, while entirely legit, is wholly overpowered when compared to other strategies. I am not against it in principle, but I am of the belief that the various possible approaches to PA should be vaguely balanced.

To which, of course, my response would be "BA is currently 34th on size and 234th on value growth since midnight".
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 07:43   #130
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I like how Keizari basically comes up here every couple of months, drags up some 20 round old story and goes awol again.
Well dude it's a very long thread and I gave my best to read it since it actually appeared vaguely interesting to begin with, but then I came to realize just how much text there was to it and figured it'd be better to just grab the familiar name on it.

That said, I'm sure this is again a subject that has been discussed thoroughly and while it may sound like dumbing down the game but I reckon we could just remove the donation features and be done with it.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 08:15   #131
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Well dude it's a very long thread and I gave my best to read it since it actually appeared vaguely interesting to begin with, but then I came to realize just how much text there was to it and figured it'd be better to just grab the familiar name on it.

That said, I'm sure this is again a subject that has been discussed thoroughly and while it may sound like dumbing down the game but I reckon we could just remove the donation features and be done with it.
I'd actually... do the same, donations are useless.. I have never gained any... never ever.. so why should others.

tbh I dislike the fact of hiding galaxy resources to gal fund aswell.. to get end of round jump.. It's same stuff in my books.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 08:42   #132
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Re: donation whores

Yet another depressing argument between those who wish to play in the spirit of the rules and those who just want to lever every advantage possible within the scope of the precise wording of the rules.

Should've just reset his planet without warning/appeal tbh.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 09:51   #133
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Re: donation whores

MZ you agreeing with yourself or being convinced by your own demonstration is not surprising.
The debate about the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law is old and won't be solved here. We could argue until Appocco turns gay, without any progress.
So i'll move on and ask: what about next round ? should this "feature" be kept and encouraged (would it be good for the game) or should it be scrapped (implicitly acknowledging there's something wrong with it).
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 09:57   #134
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Re: donation whores

How very boring this game must be for you people who are not interested in in finding new things to do in it. PA is mind numbingly repetitive it needs these things too keep it interesting. Particularly since politics has been depressingly similar for ages.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 10:37   #135
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAKHIL View Post
MZ you agreeing with yourself or being convinced by your own demonstration is not surprising.
Well, someone has to come up with actual points for me to argue against. If you people won't do it, I guess I have to do it myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAKHIL View Post
The debate about the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law is old and won't be solved here. We could argue until Appocco turns gay, without any progress.
The whole problem here is that the law (specifically, the support planet rules) is so vague that literally anything I do more than once is illegal. This in turn causes people to invent conceptions about "the spirit of the law", which, while understandable, is entirely the wrong approach. If the rules are unclear, they should be clarified, not guessed at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAKHIL View Post
So i'll move on and ask: what about next round ? should this "feature" be kept and encouraged (would it be good for the game) or should it be scrapped (implicitly acknowledging there's something wrong with it).
I'll repeat (again) what I've been saying all along. If it turns out that this strategy is vastly overpowered (and we won't be able to tell whether it is until at least halfway through the round, though at this point I'm thinking it isn't), then it should be nerfed somewhat. In either case, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to ban it.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 10:41   #136
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowly View Post
Yet another depressing argument between those who wish to play in the spirit of the rules and those who just want to lever every advantage possible within the scope of the precise wording of the rules.
Yet another sad post by those who get outsmarted regularly one way or the other. You guys had fortress gals sort of banned (until priv gals got introduced *giggles* ). You had out of tag defending banned, using the argument of the support planet rule in a case of ally cooperation (which is now allowed again). Rather amusing to see things allowed ( hardcoded)you fought against so badly before. Just because we actually did them.

Quote:
Should've just reset his planet without warning/appeal tbh.
Thank god you´re in no position whatsoever to delete a planet except for your own. I sure hope you´ll never get into any position of power where "the public" (I realise you are in a position of power in your alliance, but that´s really a private thing) is concerned. You´d probably fit in nicely into the north korean leadership with that attitude.
Keep in mind, BA did in no way break any rules. There is no actual ground to delete or reset him.

Though I could settle with having everyone above me in the rankings reset at the last tick so I get a chance of finishing #1 without worrying about competition.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 11:01   #137
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The whole problem here is that the law (specifically, the support planet rules) is so vague that literally anything I do more than once is illegal.
Jesus fvcking Christ we're still stuck to the same retarded support planet rule? I mean, genious. That's another piece of pixels that should be squashed and have some of it's nasty cavities penetrated by unspeakable things.

The problem is that literally anything you do (once is enough) or you don't do, or someone else does, can or can not be "illegal", or you've broken EULA if Assassin has a bad hair day, or if someone's into someone's ass too deep. The ridiculous thing that is the enforcement of the more or less imaginary set of rules this game has is just. I mean words fail me.

I hereby suggest changing the game rules.

Rule #1. You may not access more than one planet.
Rule #2. Don't be a dribbling idiot.
Rule #3. Please, just. Don't.
Rule #4. To enforce rules #2 and #3 we've stopped recruiting retarded "multihunters" (a list of names included).
Rule #5. Have a nice game, and if it's a feast for who abuses a specific feature most, then so be it.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 11:36   #138
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Re: donation whores

Yes, yes, we are. There are a bunch of unofficial rules on the forums somewhere, but they're not in the EULA.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 13:51   #139
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Re: donation whores

The nice thing is is that this is the result of a team effort, not just one person. Believe it or not, the plan was cooked within a few minutes. But finding a person that would want to play the superplanet took about a week. Noone wanted, so BlueArmy said 'well, I'll do it then'.

Oh by the way Light, started a new HCT research yet?
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 20:27   #140
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Yes, yes, we are. There are a bunch of unofficial rules on the forums somewhere, but they're not in the EULA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theamion
The nice thing is is that this is the result of a team effort, not just one person.


Okay. Simply because I have a bored moment at my hands I'm going to grace you with some of my infinite wisdom. I'll start with this: the fact that we're trying to play (I'm not, but I wrote we so that you get the feeling that I'm somehow involved in all this garbage) with dodgy rules that are at best defined by the very menstrual cycle of the game administrator in question is about like trying to shop pyjamas for a kitten. It's just vain.

Now a lot of time gets spent in wondering how to prevent culprits from coming out with bizarre round victories that do not please the administrator in reign and his playing friends. Over the rounds, a bunch of rules have been established, removed, re-established, modified, only dropped to be invoked again. Theamion makes a great point about the plan's establishment. It was a team effort. What we should think, is, whether we want to create rules to restrict the players' ability to come out with different "team tricks" to win games or do we want less of a limited an atmosphere.



A good real life analogy here goes as follows: many would have the perception that a culprit in the financial crisis was in fact the level of complexity involved in certain market instruments. Afterwards, banks like RBS and Barclays reported high bonus turnovers for their workers in investment banking departments (read: the people who build and deliver the complex instruments). While supervision is a good thing by idea an insight needs to be made to just what the effects of it are.

First, what's the value added of these financial instruments. They're complex, and their volatility and expected return figures are generally not going to be as good as a good stock market portfolio's would be. Initially, they may seem just a made up bunch of garbage sold as garbage. But there is a very strong demand for them: it's not private investors or market speculators, or wealthy businessmen. It's insurance companies, banks, pension funds, and so so: generally, those institutional investors that are required by supervision to have higher liquidity standards (see: what fails in Basel II and what is going to horribly fail in Basel III too). These financial instruments are an answer to a demand created by poorly planned supervision, which in turn ended up slapping the supervision mentioned, in the face. Surely, when liquidity requirements and Basel rulings were enforced upon the pension funds, nobody thought this would lead to a demand for simply more elaborate "by Basel" better rating instruments?



All right, the connection is here. The generic perspective of rules enforcement in this game has long been that players' style of play needs to be restricted so that only "certain accepted ways of winning a round are okay to happen". Every so often, someone comes with a creative plan, and they're quickly dismissed as cheaters, culprits, and filth of this game where instead we should look at them perhaps as innovators giving direction to the game. We've seen the "good legal style" Planetarion for a few rounds now, and frankly, they're all the same to me. 1up's tactics in round 17 struck as inspirational, just as eXilition's round 13 did. The problem is, every time someone pulls a stunt like this, it gets banned for the next round, and at some point a spiced up flow of multihunter bias is poured into the mixture to generate a soup nobody really wants to smell, even less eat.

We should consider if it would be time to lapse on some rules, allow players to come up with these plans, and simply nod them as creative efforts. This one, in particular, has apparently required the players to uphold one of the things the game thrives on, team effort, to strike into practise. Now, do we want to keep banning these, and creating support planet rules and whatnot, or should we encourage the game to develop from itself rather than simply from inside the box development plan? Some dynamics and refreshing changes in the general plot surely can't be bad. Sometimes rules enforcement becomes a cause of stagnation and problems when no careful thought is put into the whys of the status quo: is the aim to restrict unfair competition (multi planets, account sharing) or to limit creative ideas in team play and force the game plot into a certain model for the 48th round in a row?



Just a thought.

ps. I'm certain this pleased you, Mzyxptlk.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 20:46   #141
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Re: donation whores

I fail to see what the link is between the "analogy" and PA, probably because half the words you use are absolutely meaningless to me and Wikipedia is down, but the conclusion you arrive at I agree with, sure! (Even though it's not actually a conclusion, just a provocative but unanswered question.)
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 20:50   #142
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Re: donation whores

The point of the analogy is, that, the game's rule generation is dysfunctional. It does aim to provide a more equal playing ground for players, but at the same time, it leads to stagnation and unwanted side-effects: the intent is good and noble (just as financial supervision), but nobody's simply thought what the actual results of generating such rules are. It sounds like a good idea initially, but is it really? Edit: It's not an argument to remove rules enforcement from the game at large, that is, it's simply that perhaps some time should be spent considering why the rules are as they are and what incentives they're supposed to create.
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Unread 24 Mar 2010, 20:53   #143
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Re: donation whores

I am glad to say that I now agree even more with you. Let's just have sex and get it over with.
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Unread 25 Mar 2010, 13:01   #144
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Re: donation whores

*Note the comments below are my own opinion not the view of an official position within the game* (not that I have any official position)

This strategy for want of a better word has become possible due to a set of circumstances that have been arrived at through the introduction of exclusive private galaxies, in past (normal) rounds there never was the possibility of having a group of players in a galaxy from Tick 1 that could undertake this or even consider it.

Fortress Galaxies evolved but they were not in place from the first tick and with the buddy packs being a maximum of 3 members the donations that were possible were limited by that factor.

It simply was not a viable strategy prior to the changes this round.

In respect of the statements made by BA and his galaxy that they wished to highlight the "Whole Donation Issue" I would dispute that, in that as for the reasons above it was never an option (at round start).

How is it possible to highlight an issue that simply never existed?

Kudos to the guys in that Galaxy for seeing that this was possible, and I suspect that 99% of the whiners on the forum are just gutted because they failed to see it or implement it and the other 1% just like to whine for the sake of it.

As to whether any rules were broken, that would be for the Admin team to decide, the MH team enforce the rules not make them.

But from the comments I have seen it appears not.

From what I can see, I suspect that if next rounds format remains the same as this one, we will in all probability see a spate of galaxies undertaking the same strategy.

I wonder how that will pan out ?
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Unread 25 Mar 2010, 16:54   #145
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by Judge View Post
I suspect that 99% of the whiners on the forum are just gutted because they failed to see it or implement it and the other 1% just like to whine for the sake of it.
You're missing the whole point, go back to check gal banners.
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Unread 25 Mar 2010, 16:56   #146
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Re: donation whores

I'm having round 4 flashbacks.
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Unread 25 Mar 2010, 18:43   #147
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Re: donation whores

With 4 or 5 man bp's it would've still been viable. The boost would've been less, but with a dedicated cov-opper it would still be doable.
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Unread 25 Mar 2010, 22:22   #148
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
With 4 or 5 man bp's it would've still been viable. The boost would've been less, but with a dedicated cov-opper it would still be doable.
In that case the guy would've actually been able to attack someone after the donation.
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Unread 25 Mar 2010, 22:32   #149
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
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In that case the guy would've actually been able to attack someone after the donation.
Indeed.
Might be better! Or if you go for personal rank, you first let someone like that get roids while not building up and then donate to him!
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Unread 26 Mar 2010, 00:35   #150
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
You're missing the whole point, go back to check gal banners.
The point was you failed to see it coming, and didn't implement it now you have missed the boat.

Would you like some cheese perhaps?
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