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Unread 22 Jun 2007, 23:09   #1
Appocomaster
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Round 22 Explained

This thread will cover most of the bigger changes for this round.

Feel free to ask questions / post additional vital explanations you want to share.

I know it's a bit late, sorry

This round, Research, Construction and Production are all calculated "tick by tick".


Firstly, Research, Construction and Population - they're more simple!


##########################
RESEARCH
##########################

Each race has a certain amount of "Research Points". These are 100,120,85,100 and 100 (for Ter,Cath,Xan,Zik and Etd).

Each tick, the planet "researches" this amount, plus a bonus based on research labs and population and government bonuses.

This is the "base" number above, multiplied by the bonuses as follows:
Amount researched = base_number*(1+(% population researchers + %constructions research labs + %government bonus)/100)

The %construction research labs is the % of constructions already built that are research labs. It has a maximum limit of 20%, and does not include constructions being queued or currently being constructed.

As the % of research labs changes and the % of population changes, the research output changes tick by tick. If you alter the population in the middle of a research, this affects the research output and therefore the rate at which you research.

It's now possible to pause researches and continue other ones. Also, any research points "left over" after you've finished one research will carry on to the next research.

These points are signified in the brackets when researching:
This research is 25% complete. 300(0)/1200


##########################
CONSTRUCTION
##########################

This is similar to Research.
The base construction output is 130,90,115,100,115 (for Ter,Cath,Xan,Zik and Etd).

Each tick the planet "constructs" this amount. ALL constructions are 1000 Construction Units, and all constructions are 1000*number_of_current_constructions of each resource.

The output is given by:
Amount constructed = base_number*(1+(% population construction workers + %government bonus)/100).

Again, the left over amount "rolls over" to the next construction, and any changes to the construction workers or setting of a government has an IMMEDIATE effect.


You can also pause constructions like you can pause researches. This allows you to, for example, "almost" construct a factory and then leave it safe, incase you have a factory knocked out.
EDIT: Apparently, you can't pause constructions. I'm wrong


#########################
POPULATION
#########################

Population can now be changed at any time. This allows for more dynamic options. As a general note, security doesn't have any affect within the tick, but increases the maximum alert level (and the rate at which you rate it) each tick.


#########################
PRODUCTION
#########################

Unargably, the most controversial of the changes.

When an order is placed, a certain amount of "production units" are calculated for it. The more resources, the bigger the amount of production units.
This is split up into three sections - one for the light factory ships, one for the medium factory ships, and one for the heavy factory ships.
When an order is being placed, you can choose to allocate factories to it, or to add it to an already open order.

There is no longer any limit on the number of concurrent orders. However, each order has to be supported by one or more factories.

An order is NOT COMPLETE until ALL ships have been completed.
The more factories on an order, the quicker the order is completed. Population, government and race bonuses also help with this.

The formulae are in the manual but in general not much use for the average player to analyse. As you add the resources and factories, the production page automatically calculates the amount of time taken to produce an order. This is FAR MORE predictable than earlier versions of this system.
We will also place a page up in the near future where you can input settings and test to see what production times you get. In general the production times are between 6-20 ticks, depending on the size of the order and population, race, government and factory variables.

If all your factories of a particular type are blown up, the order is paused until it can be completed.


#######################
SCANS
#######################

The scans page has been largely recoded. The format of the planet scan has changed slightly (Edit: Example here).There are also some new features. These include alliance scanners being able to scan up to a whole galaxy at once, and the ability to group scans together.

The grouping of scans allows several scans to be displayed on one page. The [scan][/scan] tags have also been emphasised, as they allow you to easily link other people to your scans on the forums and in pa-mails instead of pasting whole addresses.


######################
MISC
######################

Structure killers can now only kill 5% of structures on a planet in any tick.
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Last edited by Appocomaster; 23 Jun 2007 at 11:53.
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Unread 22 Jun 2007, 23:23   #2
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Apparently I have to spread more love before reping you again, so!

Nice post explaining some of the more confusing and in the air topics and changes

It all makes sense now! Kinda..
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Unread 22 Jun 2007, 23:32   #3
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Re: Round 22 Explained

by lack of responce to this nice thread i got a Q , how will this improve the gameplay apoc?
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Unread 22 Jun 2007, 23:35   #4
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Re: Round 22 Explained

The thread has been going for like, 20 minutes. Give it time, everyone has to read and digest.

It's paving the way to have things like population and micromanagement able to have more of an effect on your planet.

The production is admittedly perhaps overly complicated still

The waves feature just makes it easier to handle several waves - if you want lots of information on a planet, having it on one page not several makes it easier to read, and if you're doing a raid on a galaxy, having all the scans on a few pages instead of 200 scan URLS just makes it easier to read.
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Unread 22 Jun 2007, 23:46   #5
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Just as a suggestion for next time. Make a few screenshots of this in action so that people dont simply have to imagine the things. With some screenshots they will see how things work.
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Unread 22 Jun 2007, 23:48   #6
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Beta is still up
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 00:13   #7
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Your explanations completely messed up my tickplan.

Quote:
There is no longer any limit on the number of concurrent orders.
If you have more orders than factories, what decides which order gets produced?
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 00:14   #8
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
Your explanations completely messed up my tickplan.
Sorry

Quote:
If you have more orders than factories, what decides which order gets produced?
You can't create an order until you have a factory for it. You can add it to another order though.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 00:20   #9
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Why the SK change? SKs weren't (imo) problematic in any way before, and reducing the % is that low is pretty lame, esp. when the SK effectiveness remained steady
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 00:24   #10
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Constructions, especially factories, are now a bit more important.
trashing someone's factories and doubling their production time when they're trying to produce 30 mil ships, removing their ability to defend themselves effectively, is pretty powerful is it not?
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 00:31   #11
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
You can't create an order until you have a factory for it. You can add it to another order though.
I can create as many orders as I want in the beta version. Or is that because I already have a few dozen orders set to NEVER be completed?
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 00:41   #12
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
all constructions are 1000 of each resource.
Am I reading this correctly?
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 00:42   #13
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
all constructions are 1000 of each resource.
Am I reading this correctly?
yeah ok, I made a mistake sec

Edit: Fixed
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 02:36   #14
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
The formulae are in the manual but in general not much use for the average player to analyse.
Honestly who did create those formulas?

Production Units = (total_resources_spent^1/2)*LN(total_resources_spent^2)

total_resources_spent^2 - so if anyone wants to code a calc for his alliance he would have to handle VERY large numbers - 10.000.000 * 10.000.000 = 100.000.000.000.000 - nuts.
Besides drawing the graph of this formula shows it's pretty much a linear function (for large numbers - and it will be mainly large numbers).
So Production Units = total_resources_spent / 10000 or summin would have done the trick.

Output = int(((4000 * # factories)^0.98) * (1 + (pop_bonus + gov_bonus + race_bonus) / 100))

So basically you multiply a larger number with factories to reduce the overall result with some strange exponent - why not just use 3500 * # factories?

What exactly is the reason many game formulas are so complicated - you need to stress the server CPUs a bit? :P

As for the rest of the thread - nice infos - just a tad late ;(
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 08:54   #15
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Re: Round 22 Explained

the new layout is not as "user friendly" as before. My brain gets confuuzzled easily. I need to be able to differentiate buttons at a glance. Like the research page: FAT BOLD TITLE and a Definition colred gray...then a big button.....not an intstruction manual for a T180 scientific calculator.

Maybe its the 7th pint of Bass ale that is hindering my cognitive abilities. I'll know in the morning.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 12:35   #16
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
When an order is placed, a certain amount of "production units" are calculated for it. The more resources, the bigger the amount of production units.
So, this means that Feudalism, which alters the resource cost of ships, results in a 20% reduction in production time for the resource cost aspect of the formula, and Unification which has +15% mining (ie, +15% resources) with 20% slower construction (ie, fewer factories) is trying to jam more ships down fewer factories resulting in much longer ETAs for their production?

Effectively, what i'm saying is that because you've elected to use resource cost, as opposed to fleet score, you're giving (perhaps unintentional) benefits to one system of government over another.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 12:44   #17
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Re: Round 22 Explained

For once I like these changes - they're far friendlier to the more casual player.

The old days of getting up in the middle of the night because my research has finished has finally gone!
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 12:58   #18
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
The old days of getting up in the middle of the night because my research has finished has finally gone!
I'm not sure that these changes will actually let you do this - there is no "queing" of research as you can with Constructions. However i suppose you can alter your population to make the present research take longer to do, thus be complete when you expect to wake up.

Is that what you meant?
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 15:02   #19
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I'm not sure that these changes will actually let you do this - there is no "queing" of research as you can with Constructions. However i suppose you can alter your population to make the present research take longer to do, thus be complete when you expect to wake up.

Is that what you meant?
There's no point in that though, might as well let it finish at 3am and let your researchers be idle for a few hours.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 15:21   #20
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
There's no point in that though, might as well let it finish at 3am and let your researchers be idle for a few hours.
But that population you 'save' from not having them working on research as much can then be directed to mining, or to Construction which you can actually que. So, its more useful in that regard.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 15:23   #21
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I'm not sure that these changes will actually let you do this - there is no "queing" of research as you can with Constructions. However i suppose you can alter your population to make the present research take longer to do, thus be complete when you expect to wake up.

Is that what you meant?
If my current research finishes in 2 hours and the next time I can play is in 8 hours time then I can pause the one that's close to finish and start a longer research. It means I won't have 6 hours of wasted time where my planet isn't doing any research.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 15:29   #22
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
If my current research finishes in 2 hours and the next time I can play is in 8 hours time then I can pause the one that's close to finish and start a longer research. It means I won't have 6 hours of wasted time where my planet isn't doing any research.
Its times like these when i just point at my nickname, and smile.


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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 15:33   #23
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Re: Round 22 Explained

What about cluster/para's and so on?
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 16:04   #24
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Hmm, that's something I hadn't thought of yet either.

Zhukov:
No changes since last round, assuming beta is using the same parameters as the endurance round. So eta -1 in-c attacks, eta -2 in-c defence, no advantages for parallels.



P.S.
Speaking of beta, damn you (general you) for taking it down. I'd almost won it!



P.P.S.
Appoco's explanation is exactly the sort of thing that should be put on the portal, and not on the forums.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 23 Jun 2007 at 16:21.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 16:36   #25
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
If my current research finishes in 2 hours and the next time I can play is in 8 hours time then I can pause the one that's close to finish and start a longer research. It means I won't have 6 hours of wasted time where my planet isn't doing any research.
You can't pause your current research and pick another. Not afaik.
EDIT: You can! I am going to sleep much better this round
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 20:25   #26
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Re: Round 22 Explained

I got a question: when building a structure, why is it added to your number of buildings?

in example: I have a research centre, a metal mine and a crystal mine. I'm building an eonium mine and another research center. On the list of buildings it says I now have 20% research centres, while I only have 3 complete buildings of witch one is a research center, so I should have 33%.

please don't comment on the buildings I am, or am not, building at the moment

oh and I know research bonus is capped at 20% so in this case it doesn't matter, but still I'd like to understand why I don't have 33% research centres at this moment.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 20:50   #27
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Re: Round 22 Explained

The displayed percentages when you have constructions in queue is incorrect. The actual percentages is based solely on the number of buildings you already have.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 20:57   #28
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
The displayed percentages when you have constructions in queue is incorrect. The actual percentages is based solely on the number of buildings you already have.
I believe they display the amount of constructions you will have when those already ordered are completed as a means to help people pick what construction to put in the queue. So when they are going to have 20% research laboratories, this percentage will make it clear that the next thing to pick is another research laboratory.
Actual percentages used for calculating progress are indeed not based on the percentages displayed here.

Last edited by Gerbie2; 23 Jun 2007 at 21:10.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 21:02   #29
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Exactly. Personally, I would prefer this info to be displayed in another way, but that was probably the idea behind it.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 21:11   #30
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Re: Round 22 Explained

I'm not sure if this actually affects things but when you build a research lab it doesn't count until it's finished. So i have 3 refineries, 1 res lab, one refinery building and one res lab in queue but my res lab % is only 16%. It's not currently affecting my research times but I'd rather not lose res ticks over something as gay as that to be honest.
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Unread 23 Jun 2007, 22:07   #31
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm not sure if this actually affects things but when you build a research lab it doesn't count until it's finished. So i have 3 refineries, 1 res lab, one refinery building and one res lab in queue but my res lab % is only 16%. It's not currently affecting my research times but I'd rather not lose res ticks over something as gay as that to be honest.
yeah, that's why i asked the question... rather be sure than sorry
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 13:25   #32
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Also, any research points "left over" after you've finished one research will carry on to the next research.
Does this also mean that if i miss 2 ticks of research then i'll have 2 ticks of research points saved up for the next research, or is it just the remaining percentage from the last active research tick?

Example
(Tick - RP per Tick - Used RP - RP towards next research)
1 - 100 - 50 - 50 (Current research finishes this tick using only 50 RP)
2 - 100 - 0 - 50
3 - 100 - 0 - 50

or
1 - 100 - 50 - 50 (Current research finishes this tick using only 50 RP)
2 - 100 - 0 - 150
3 - 100 - 0 - 250
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 14:04   #33
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJet
Does this also mean that if i miss 2 ticks of research then i'll have 2 ticks of research points saved up for the next research, or is it just the remaining percentage from the last active research tick?
The latter.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 15:21   #34
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Re: Round 22 Explained

I have been trying to write a production calc and can't get the numbers from the formula to match the actual game here is an example

Race Etd
Gov Dict
Factories 1
Prod Bonus 60
Ship Mercenary (52 of each res with Dict penalty)
Num to build 1

The formula from the Manual

PU = (total_resources_spent^1/2)*LN(total_resources_spent^2)
Output = int(((4000 * # factories)^0.98) * (1 + (pop_bonus + gov_bonus + race_bonus) / 100))
PT = (Required Production Units + (10000*# factories))/Output

PU = (156^1/2)*LN(156*156) = 12.489995996797*10.099712014499 = 126.14536262989
Output = int (((4000*1)^.98) * (1 + (60 + 10 + 0) / 100)) = int ((3388.588179147) * (1.7)) = 5760
PT = (126.14536262989 + (10000 * 1)) / 5760 = 1.7580113476788 = 2

As you can see this gives a value of 2 but the beta gives a value of 3, can anyone see what the problem is ?

Any pointers would be appreciated

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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 15:49   #35
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Minimum production eta is 3, haven't checked ur calc though, but i guess u r right. It's just that production times can't be lower then 3 ticks.
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 15:55   #36
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Re: Round 22 Explained

its one out on larger orders also, always lower if its wrong.
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 16:06   #37
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Think I have it now
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 16:18   #38
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Its a bit crude but it appears to work correctly, if you have a beta account still then I would be grateful if you could check it against your race and gov settings.

http://bcalc.thrud.co.uk/prodcalc.php

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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 17:14   #39
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Re: Round 22 Explained

would be useful to have more than just terran shipies in the dropdown list, either that or it isn't updating in FF 2.0.0.4


edit - nevermind, race updates after you've submitted it
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 17:39   #40
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Like I said it is a bit crude

Have added number of ticks to allow it to calculate how many ships you can build in a number of ticks, I don't know how accurate it is, but I've tried to ensure that it errs on the low side to ensure that its always possible to build that number of ships in the time. This is not a straight calc due to the (total_resources_spent^1/2)*LN(total_resources_spent^2) part, if any math wiz can come up with a non-interrative solution to this, I'd be mighty impressed.
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 17:48   #41
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Constructions, especially factories, are now a bit more important.
trashing someone's factories and doubling their production time when they're trying to produce 30 mil ships, removing their ability to defend themselves effectively, is pretty powerful is it not?
Yet with the population changes, it's near impossible for a large planet to get covert operations immunity from all planets--and hence a factory destroying covert operation just grew exponentially more useful. Why fix one (SKs) and not the other (Cov Ops) if that indeed was your intention. I bet I could take out about 5 factories on some planets before landing.
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 18:35   #42
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Pause Research?

Is it just me or can anyone else NOT find a <pause> button and only a cancel?
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 18:50   #43
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
Pause Research?

Is it just me or can anyone else NOT find a <pause> button and only a cancel?
and that's the button you use...when you cancel a research the "progress" you've done in it so far will be "saved"...so you can continue it at any time...
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 20:15   #44
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Wouldn't something like "Stop" or "Hold" be a more accurate description?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 20:55   #45
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Wouldn't something like "Stop" or "Hold" be a more accurate description?
probably...now at least.
at the time of coding the "feature" wasn't fully decided as something we should keep, it were just one that were considered as something rather likely to be added, and that would be quite useful, so the actual button never really go renamed.
i'll make some "adjustments" to it so that the button itself got a more "correct" text.
the "start" button already have a more correct, having 'start' for a new research and 'continue' for research that's already "put on hold".
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Unread 24 Jun 2007, 21:35   #46
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Re: Round 22 Explained

man im a normal iq guy but like hell i get the new stuff and no i doesnt get it even then ppl explain it to me either how the fcuk should a new guy get anything?

damn code geeks :/
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Unread 25 Jun 2007, 03:29   #47
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrud
Like I said it is a bit crude

Have added number of ticks to allow it to calculate how many ships you can build in a number of ticks, I don't know how accurate it is, but I've tried to ensure that it errs on the low side to ensure that its always possible to build that number of ships in the time. This is not a straight calc due to the (total_resources_spent^1/2)*LN(total_resources_spent^2) part, if any math wiz can come up with a non-interrative solution to this, I'd be mighty impressed.
Whilst i dont know how to fix this, i was wondering if you could improve your prod calc by permitting either more than 1 type of ship to be ordered at once, and/or have a place to add the total resource cost directly (ie, go to the Production page ingame, see the calc from the resources, go t oyour calc and input, get eta, and then tweak ).

Atm i;m using excel to work it out, and it seems to be giving sensible answers. When my factory actually completes, i'll be able to play with it more .
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Unread 25 Jun 2007, 05:59   #48
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrud
if any math wiz can come up with a non-interrative solution to this, I'd be mighty impressed.
...

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Unread 25 Jun 2007, 06:10   #49
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Re: Round 22 Explained

I have a question somewhat related to the production issue. How does this work out in value of the ships produced? Is this value based on:
1. the amount of resources you put in (you get more ships with the same amount of value, making feudalism good for getting xp and giving a bonus on the 40% attack limit)
2. the amount of resources ships would normally cost (the extra ships you get for your resources means that you get extra value for the same amount of resources)

I would have picked feudalism if #1 was true, but hadn't thought of this possibility before.
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Unread 25 Jun 2007, 06:21   #50
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Re: Round 22 Explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
I have a question somewhat related to the production issue. How does this work out in value of the ships produced? Is this value based on:
1. the amount of resources you put in (you get more ships with the same amount of value, making feudalism good for getting xp and giving a bonus on the 40% attack limit)
2. the amount of resources ships would normally cost (the extra ships you get for your resources means that you get extra value for the same amount of resources)

I would have picked feudalism if #1 was true, but hadn't thought of this possibility before.
Its #1 (resource cost), which is why there was that whole panic over the governments being reset and/or changed (feudalism altered to neutralise the production eta bonus of their cheap ships) or whatever during protection. I fear i might have pointed it out earlier in the thread, and been the cause of all that misery .

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