Its time for another theology debate based on something utterly unprovable.

[Kurashima]

Sitting there trying to sleep tonight, and this little gem came across me. Its pointless, unprovable, and its the best way i can think of to get those little lights burning in the minds of GD'ers and bring out all the religious types to once again defend their Lord and Saviour against the Atheists.

I give you

God Kills

If the prophets and the priests are to be believed, then there is a single all powerful force in charge of all our lives. That entity, be what it may, is responsible for the life, and more importantly, the death of every living thing on this planet, and by the reckoning that hes omnipotent, the life and death of every living thing in the universe.

God Kills

Hundreds of thousands of millions of people every day pray to God, in some way shape or form. Yet theyre worshipping the single greatest mass murdering being ever to have lived. So when an omnipotent being decides to crank up an earthquake on an underdeveloped third world country, or not bother about the drunk guy in the car whos about to mow down an immediate family member,or even allow countries to invade each other and wipe out millions, why dont people blame God?

God Kills

I mean, youre given life right at the start, but the only experience youre ever going to have of God in your life us when he kills anyone and everyone around you, and then eventually wipes you out. God cant be reasoned with. He cant be debated with. You woke up this morning to find out another group of people died in a bus crash in a country people cant pronounce. Im sure thats pretty much down to God. Im sure he could have let em Zig instead of Zag. Instead he racked up another few frags for the Almighty.

God Kills

Think about it. When did you last see God raise someone from the dead. Say "Hey, you know what, maybe i ****ed up on that one. Im almighty, but im not infallible. Nice guy, did what i told him his whole life, so he deserves a second chance. Ill just put the roof back on his trailer, reconnect his cable TV (tuned into the God channel, obviously) and ill say sorry for the inconvenience. Heck, ill even sort that whole infertility thing, because hes going to raise his kids to be just like him". Doesnt happen, does it. Its all about Faith. A tool thats manipulated millions for the lifespan of the planet. If a cult can tell 500 people theyre going to heaven when a comet passes, because Gods not going to tell them otherwise, well shit, hes not doing a very good job.

God Kills. Man just kills in his image.

[Phang]

Why the sweet jesus cnuting feck did you actually take the time to write this?

[Kurashima]

Originally Posted by Phang

Why the sweet jesus cnuting feck did you actually take the time to write this?

I cant sleep.

[queball]

Death is great. Murder is only bad because it's playing God. And similarly, suicide is cheating.

[Phang]

here's the thnig. You've taken a small dribble of rarely-held views nd threaded them together and pronounced this to be the ultimate truth of theism. You've essentially claimed that all the friendly Jesus-lovin' types are bizarre fundamentalists who have never read the Bible, then created a bizarre, vaguely coherent strawman and asked the thiests to argue round it, secure in the knowledge that you have made a near-impossible proposition. The problem is that you are forcing Christians and the like to accept alien beliefs as their own and defend them

[Stew]

Originally Posted by Kurashima

I cant sleep.

Me neither recently. But lets not turn this into a thread about insomnia (or faithless!)

On the actual subject - ur not sayin anythin thats not been said before. Everything happens for a reason Kura.

[Kurashima]

Originally Posted by Stew

Me neither recently. But lets not turn this into a thread about insomnia (or faithless!)

On the actual subject - ur not sayin anythin thats not been said before. Everything happens for a reason Kura.

Prove it.

No, wait, if you based your reality on God, or the "Everything happens for a reason" theology, then you cant. And God will still eventually kill you.

[Stew]

Like yours, I cant prove it.
And I wouldnt say God kills me, I'd say he decided its ime for me to move on and be reincarnated as a bra (well fingers crossed!)

[Perfection]

Im not religious but

Nobody seems to consider the possibility that those 'innocent' people who were killed were the next group of mass murderers etc. As well as the possibility that when you die its because you have, in some way at least though this may not be the best way to express it, reached your 'peak' or 'limit' and its time to move on - just like when we all gave up trying to be professional footballers because wed realised we werent that good and moved onto other careers instead. As well as the possibility that several times in your life, hes saved you because you hadnt reached your peak - by making sure you didnt trip over that pavement and that you didnt burn the house down whilst cooking etc... Moreover, i dont believe an omnipotent being can ever be fallible. And finally, wars waged on religious grounds might be down to human weakness and not weakness within the bible.

Like i said, im not religious but i just thought id mention the counter points.

[JBOY]

Originally Posted by Kurashima

Say "Hey, you know what, maybe i ****ed up on that one. Im almighty, but im not infallible.

The one with the skeeball and the roller hokey playing demons.
Oh, and the holy golf club....

[MrL_JaKiri]

You're kind of missing the whole 'Free Will' thang that Christianity has going. Like Phang says, it's just a Strawman.

There's also the argument that God cannot exist as a temporal entity (do to omniscience) and therefore is entirely determined at any point in time, and therefore cannot 'choose' to do anything.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by JBOY

The one with the skeeball and the roller hokey playing demons.
Oh, and the holy golf club....

Dogma

[nickhall]

i really cannot believe you bothered to write this although saying that you are right but then i dont believe in a god anyway.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by nickhall

you are right

If he's talking about the christian god, no he isn't.

[lokken]

Surely God would do what he wants, for the right reason, being God and knowing all and that.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Here's a couple of words for people who doubt that the Christian (and Jewish, if the same Genesis applies) allows humans free will:

Original Sin.

[Deepflow]

like poking a badger with a spoon.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Also refer to the works of St Augustine, and more latterly St Thomas Aquinas.

[Deepflow]

and eddie izzard

[Sandsnake]

it's also an argument based on the idea that mankind is somehow above the natural cycle of things and that death is necessarily evil.... Cute though.

Ps. most religions do not view death as evil or bad, but rather a transition...the entire argument is you forcing your angry views onto someone else and expecting them to defend your twisted inaccuracies. Where's Davin Braihm (or whatever his name was) when you need him, huh?

[Deepflow]

you have eddie in your sig!

[Dante Hicks]

There's also the Russell argument that terms like "good" and "evil" are meaningless when applied to an all-powerful God. If God created everything then he also created the notions of Godo and Evil, and therefore it's stupid to try and judge God as good.

If there is some external moral framework in which to judge God then obviously God is therefore no longer the supreme creator. Or something.

On the whole issue of "death" in general, I thought heaven was supposed to be great and all, so who cares about dying?

p.s. The Lord works in mysterious ways.

[ChubbyChecker]

God isn't here to be your nanny. He is here to judge you, nothing more. Determining how much time he has to judge you in is up to you.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

God isn't here to be your nanny. He is here to judge you, nothing more. Determining how much time he has to judge you in is up to you.

obviously it isnt. The whole point of this thread was based around accidental and unexpected death.

[roadrunner_0]

the problem with this whole thread is that it posits the existence of a god :/

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

obviously it isnt. The whole point of this thread was based around accidental and unexpected death.

God is interested in how you deal with the challenges you face, not how they came about.

[Deciduous]

You been chatting to god about his agenda lately?

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

You been chatting to god about his agenda lately?

It helps if you read The Bible.

[Deciduous]

How many of the people who wrote it actually spoke to god then

[JonnyBGood]

I tried explaining myself to a ****roach the other day. But no matter how ****ing long and hard I tried it didn't change it's evil ways. So I killed it because it was getting too close to my food.



Am I a bad man now? :(

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

How many of the people who wrote it actually spoke to god then

So the only people who should discuss theology are people who have spoken directly to God?
That's some tough criteria there.

Although in that case you may want to read the Qur'an, it was written by God (through Muhammed). It's all pretty much the same religion anyway.

[Deciduous]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

So the only people who should discuss theology are people who have spoken directly to God?
That's some tough criteria there.

Well it is basically an argument that boils down to
"Gods exists"
"How do you know?"
"I read it in a book written several hundred years ago by people who have never directly seen the effects of this God, and most of the subjects who claim to have some connection with God had been dead for hundreds of years."

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

Although in that case you may want to read the Qur'an, it was written by God (through Muhammed). It's all pretty much the same religion anyway.

Basically, again, some bloke wrote it.

If God is all powerful and truly wants your belief, why does he need someone else to write his book?

[ChubbyChecker]

We're discussing why god is so evil, not whether he exists or not!

Though if you want an explanation for why he doesn't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he exists then I could always say that he wants your faith, faith is meaningless if you actually prove that he exists since you don't need faith to believe in something that is staring you in the face.

[Deciduous]

I'm just saying, it's a bit like discussing why cats from space interfering with my breakfast cereal is evil.

And on the faith thing, if you totally believe that the Bible and Qur'an and such were written under the direct instruction of God, then you unwaveringly believe that God exists, and it is no longer a matter of faith is it?

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

I'm just saying, it's a bit like discussing why cats from space interfering with my breakfast cereal is evil.

If that's how you feel then you shouldn't get involved in the more intricate theological discussions because it would just turn into an argument about whether He exists or not, a pointless argument if ever there was one.

Originally Posted by Deciduous

And on the faith thing, if you totally believe that the Bible and Qur'an and such were written under the direct instruction of God, then you unwaveringly believe that God exists, and it is no longer a matter of faith is it?

You still have only your faith that tells you that he wrote them, there is no concrete proof.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Am I a bad man now?

No because unlike God, you're not omnipotent. God could make us understand if he wanted but he can't be bothered the good for nothing gobshite.

[Deciduous]

So your faith is simply placed in Mohammed not telling porkies.

I'm sorry if my tiny mind cannot cope with 'intricate theological discussion', but if a man walked up to me in the street and said "I wrote this book, it was dictated to me by God" I'd be a touch more sceptical than you are.

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

So your faith is simply placed in Mohammed not telling porkies.

I'm sorry if my tiny mind cannot cope with 'intricate theological discussion', but if a man walked up to me in the street and said "I wrote this book, it was dictated to me by God" I'd be a touch more sceptical than you are.

There is no proof in faith, that's why they call it faith! You either believe or you don't, you can't bring statistical analysis into it, or even logic or reason.

And when I was talking about intricate theological discussions I was merely talking about something deeper than "Does God exist?" cos that's all you'll ever discuss if your first criteria for discussing God is determining whether or not he exists.

[Deciduous]

It doesn't make much sense to discuss something that doesn't exist

[the_dastardley_chihuahua]

i read somewhere that god hates fags. is it true?

btw - why cant i use colours in my postsd?

[Deciduous]

If you masturbate you're also on God's shit list

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

No because unlike God, you're not omnipotent. God could make us understand if he wanted but he can't be bothered the good for nothing gobshite.

I'm not?


On another note is god evil for allowing bad things to happen to cows and goats?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

On another note is god evil for allowing bad things to happen to cows and goats?

Depend on your views on animal rights. Probably not, but you know what those hippies are like.

[the_dastardley_chihuahua]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I'm not?


On another note is god evil for allowing bad things to happen to cows and goats?

yeah like because if god intended for us to kill cws and eat them and make shoes out of them then why did he give them the ability to feel pain and suffer and all that? god sucks!

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Depend on your views on animal rights. Probably not, but you know what those hippies are like.

I'm not sure about you but I've never heard of the right not to be involved in an earthquake.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I'm not sure about you but I've never heard of the right not to be involved in an earthquake.

Well, that's because I don't believe Earthquakes are "inflicted" by anyone. If you had an earthquake machine and were unleashing one every five minutes then it'd become relevent.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Well, that's because I don't believe Earthquakes are "inflicted" by anyone. If you had an earthquake machine and were unleashing one every five minutes then it'd become relevent.

I'm pretty sure god has one of those earthquake machines man.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I'm pretty sure god has one of those earthquake machines man.

Yeah which is why he's a complete and total ****.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

God is interested in how you deal with the challenges you face, not how they came about.

so a bomb going off on a train youre on is a 'challenge you face'?

sucks

nb, i may have missed the point, i havent eaten/slept for about 2 days.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

It doesn't make much sense to discuss something that doesn't exist

Not only is it a fallacy to state that god doesn't exist (it is impossible to prove the nonexistance of an omniscient being without being omniscient), it's also stupid to say 'lol you argue about things that don't exist', as this would throw all of philosophy, and by extention the sciences, out the window.

Originally Posted by Deepflow

so a bomb going off on a train youre on is a 'challenge you face'?

sucks

nb, i may have missed the point, i havent eaten/slept for about 2 days.

I think the point he's trying to make is that no matter how you die it's how you acted in the situations which you had a deciding influence (no matter how seemingly irrelevent) for that dictates your afterlife status.

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

There is no proof in faith, that's why they call it faith! You either believe or you don't, you can't bring statistical analysis into it, or even logic or reason.

And when I was talking about intricate theological discussions I was merely talking about something deeper than "Does God exist?" cos that's all you'll ever discuss if your first criteria for discussing God is determining whether or not he exists.

On the other hand, this is also stupid. Logic and reason are independent of any motive, all they allow is the formation of valid statements. The line 'there is no proof in faith' can also be interpreted in several ways, all of which have different degrees of incorrectness. If there is no requirement of evidence for faith to exist, why does one choose one religion over another? From there, we can only either assume that it's entirely selfish ('This one has the best rewards', Pascal's Wager) which is denying the basic ideals of most religions, or based around indoctrination.