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Unread 4 Sep 2004, 01:37   #51
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
tbh he handled it awfully, and russia shld have withdrew from chec. several years ago, but no they dont.
no he didn't no he shouldn't. The terrorists were prepared to, and had the means to, kill every hostage when the operation started; a body count of a quarter is three quarters better than what could easily have happened. As for Chechen withdrawal, MM has explained it better than I ever could, and rather more succinctly (And sex to NH for the statistic).

As for Putin: he's brought massive economic growth, no obvious corruption, and stability to the country. He's neutralised the oligarchy that was in place and has restored foreign confidence in Russia. His predecessors and compatriots certainly give him a halo by comparison. Anyone who wants to displace Putin as President is either an anarchist or someone pursuing their own financial ends, to be blunt.
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Unread 4 Sep 2004, 09:26   #52
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
death toll is now bigger than 250, according to bbc news, and some of those are the special forces.
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Unread 5 Sep 2004, 19:05   #53
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
A few facts, drawing from briefs on the situation and what I know of like events:

-The Children were not fed or watered in 52 hours, absolutely no provision was made for their nourishment, even water, or facilities. It was also not a demand of the terrorists. Based on similar patterns from past attacks, the terrorists had no intention of letting any of the hostages survive

-There was no give and take in the negotiations, nor were the terrorists negotiating for concrete goals, nor were they even able to provide a hypothetical circumstance whereby the hostages would be released.

-Upon small numbers of the hostages fleeing, they were fired upon from the windows by the terrorists (killing a number of children). Again, there was no real intent on the part of the terrorists to bring the seige to a peaceful ending.

These are of course suppositions, but by all accounts this attack was meant as a message, not as an actual bargening for specific ends.

Remember something: The FSB in Russia has been kept on a tight leash by Putin, himself a former KGB Colonel. They retain many (though not all) of the extraordinary powers of their predecessors, the KGB. They have only been unleashed once, against organised Crime in Moscow, with bloody but effective results.

I suspect Putin right now is in the process of doubling the budget of the FSB and removing the blinders. No state could possibly allow something like this to go by without spectacular and bloody repayment, and people forget that Russia still has more ability to 'take the gloves off' then most modern nations...
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Unread 6 Sep 2004, 11:23   #54
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Goodbye, Chechnya....
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Unread 6 Sep 2004, 19:26   #55
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
snip
I suspect Putin right now is in the process of doubling the budget of the FSB and removing the blinders. No state could possibly allow something like this to go by without spectacular and bloody repayment, and people forget that Russia still has more ability to 'take the gloves off' then most modern nations...
It's what I would do if I was the Russian president. Then let God decide if I go to heaven or hell when I die.
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Unread 8 Sep 2004, 18:28   #56
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
I called it...

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...age040908.html
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Unread 8 Sep 2004, 18:29   #57
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
that's one hell of a hat.
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Unread 8 Sep 2004, 20:39   #58
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
and i always said someone should have knocked out bush (pre-emptivly) after he won that election. anyway, at least the russians said they wont use nukes. would be fun to see them invade saudi arabia for supporting terrorism, i wonder what bush would say then.
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Unread 9 Sep 2004, 01:59   #59
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Exclamation Re: Troops storm Russian school
Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
and i always said someone should have knocked out bush (pre-emptivly) after he won that election.
Democracy is just so overrated, isn't it?
Quote:
anyway, at least the russians said they wont use nukes.
Yeah, that's quite a restraint.
Quote:
would be fun to see them invade saudi arabia for supporting terrorism, i wonder what bush would say then.
I'm sure they could count on at least as much support from us as we got from them. As for me, as long as they were committed to setting up a democratic/capitalist state they'd have my full support.

But I don't think invading Saudi Arabia would do much to remedy Russia's terrorism problems however.
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Unread 9 Sep 2004, 06:55   #60
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
But I don't think invading Saudi Arabia would do much to remedy Russia's terrorism problems however.
[obvious]
1. Might help yours though.

2. That didn't stop Bush in Iraq
[/obvious]
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Unread 9 Sep 2004, 10:16   #61
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Democracy is just so overrated, isn't it?
hitler was elected aswell

Quote:
Yeah, that's quite a restraint.
the us-army plans to build some mini-nukes to actually use in war, doesnt it?

Quote:
I'm sure they could count on at least as much support from us as we got from them. As for me, as long as they were committed to setting up a democratic/capitalist state they'd have my full support.

But I don't think invading Saudi Arabia would do much to remedy Russia's terrorism problems however.
thats wasnt my question, i wonder how bush would react.
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Unread 9 Sep 2004, 19:04   #62
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
hitler was elected aswell
Not even remotely the same thing. Nevermind that no one had a clue about Bush. He didn't exactly campaign on a "we're going to attack terrorists" platform.

Quote:
the us-army plans to build some mini-nukes to actually use in war, doesnt it?
They have had them for years. Tactically, they're very limited in usefulness, while the political implications are massive.

We haven't used them yet and Nuclear weapons use still needs to be approved by the President. No matter what you happen to think of Bush, I highly doubt he wants to be the first guy to use nuclear weapons since WWII unless the situation absolutely required it.


Quote:
thats wasnt my question, i wonder how bush would react.
We have no obligations with Saudi that would preclude us going to war with Russia. That said, practicality dictates that the US would stay the hell out of it and slap sanctions on whomever they disagree with if they feel it was necessary. The Saudi-Bush connection is somewhat tenuous.
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Unread 9 Sep 2004, 19:30   #63
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandsnake
Not even remotely the same thing. Nevermind that no one had a clue about Bush. He didn't exactly campaign on a "we're going to attack terrorists" platform.
hitler didnt campaign, he would want to start WW2

edit: afaik hitler wasnt elected, he was appointed by the former reichspresident hindenburg.
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Unread 9 Sep 2004, 20:48   #64
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Don't MAKE me get all historical on your ass...

Hitler's Party was elected by the popular vote, several times in fact, though the validity of the elections became less and less as he set about using an assortment of tactics to eliminate all those who might vote against him...
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Unread 9 Sep 2004, 21:08   #65
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
edit: while i thougt about the events in '33 i sadly forgot the vote in march. so, my former statement is wrong.
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Unread 9 Sep 2004, 21:27   #66
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
hitler was elected aswell


the us-army plans to build some mini-nukes to actually use in war, doesnt it?


thats wasnt my question, i wonder how bush would react.
Good answer
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Unread 9 Sep 2004, 21:51   #67
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Exclamation Re: Troops storm Russian school
'Elected' is a bit of a simplistic and misleading term to describe Hitler's rise to the Chancellery.
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Unread 10 Sep 2004, 11:27   #68
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Re: Troops storm Russian school
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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
'Elected' is a bit of a simplistic and misleading term to describe Hitler's rise to the Chancellery.
the same is valid for bush though.
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