More Oil for United States

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Texan

people like u aren't mutch better than neonazis.

What?

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

What?

if you call someone stupid because he wrote something stupid it obviously means that you are a neonazi.

[pablissimo]

It was a quote was it not?

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

if you call someone stupid because he wrote something stupid it obviously means that you are a neonazi.

So is joking about the cancellation of Futurama being a bad thing.

God, I never realised. Ah well.

Wir mussen die juden ausrotten.

[Texan]

Originally Posted by pablissimo

It was a quote was it not?

Yes, from some guy called BetrayerOfHope. I don't even care what he meant. I only wanted to point out that people on this forum are not above personal attacks when someone states opposing beliefs.

[Phang]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Wir mussen die juden ausrotten.

Maybe it's Aramaic!

[Texan]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

So is joking about the cancellation of Futurama being a bad thing.

God, I never realised. Ah well.

Wir mussen die juden ausrotten.

It's German meaning "We must eradicate the Jews."

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Nondescript Human

This is often overstated. Iraq produces 0.032% of the world's oil.

production isnt the same (as important) as easily accessible reserves

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Texan

It's German meaning "We must eradicate the Jews."

hehe i just watched the southpark ep with cartman and his marching army

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Texan

Zar:
Germans arent as war hungry, blood loving, death wishing, as their american counterparts

i dont recall saying that they were?

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Texan

It's German meaning "We must eradicate the Jews."

How did The Republic of Texas manage to survive it's original war of independence from Mexico? I mean, here you have a tiny little dusty outpost of Mexico's North American holdings, with an absolutely meagre population, practically no industry and relatively little bureacractic structure and it goes on to not only beat the Mexican army, but to sustain itself for the following nine years as an independant state.

As a Texan, can you please enlighten me on this feat of human accomplishment?

[JammyJim]

Texan is turning into the new davinbrahm.


how i miss him....

[wu_trax]

i miss that warfalcon guy

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by JammyJim

Texan is turning into the new davinbrahm.

No-one is as bad as Davin 'I laugh heartily at your misfortune.' Brahm. No-one comes close.

He must have been the happiest little soul alive.

Originally Posted by JammyJim

how i miss him....

Track him down and capture him.

We have the technology. We can rebuild him.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Texan

It's German meaning "We must eradicate the Jews."

He knows. It's a south park reference.

[Kurashima]

Just for future reference, do threads designed to essentially garner Anti-American posts count and indulge in universal "Nation Bashing" count as Trolling" or can these just be classed as "Was bored and wanted an argument"?

[Deepflow]

arent those 2 the same things?

anyway, i think i decided it was a troll with the first reply on this post. But i could have just been talking about actual billy goats gruff, i was on acid at the time.

[JammyJim]

Originally Posted by Kurashima

Just for future reference, do threads designed to essentially garner Anti-American posts count and indulge in universal "Nation Bashing" count as Trolling" or can these just be classed as "Was bored and wanted an argument"?

im sure he does it just to rile people too for obvious reasons (as stated somewhere else in this thread)

he never answered my post either :-(

[Texan]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

How did The Republic of Texas manage to survive it's original war of independence from Mexico? I mean, here you have a tiny little dusty outpost of Mexico's North American holdings, with an absolutely meagre population, practically no industry and relatively little bureacractic structure and it goes on to not only beat the Mexican army, but to sustain itself for the following nine years as an independant state.

As a Texan, can you please enlighten me on this feat of human accomplishment?

The Texans were fighting for freedom. I don't know what the Mexicans were fighting for. Maybe they were conscripts.

[Texan]

Originally Posted by JammyJim

im sure he does it just to rile people too for obvious reasons (as stated somewhere else in this thread)

he never answered my post either :-(

Do you mean the question about how this justifies the attack on Iraq? The United State's humanitarian actions in Haiti do not justify the attack on Iraq. That is why I ignored the question.

[Boogster]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

That was what he was saying you foolish cur.

It was a kneejerk reaction. Probably could have done with reading the thread first.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

How did The Republic of Texas manage to survive it's original war of independence from Mexico? I mean, here you have a tiny little dusty outpost of Mexico's North American holdings, with an absolutely meagre population, practically no industry and relatively little bureacractic structure and it goes on to not only beat the Mexican army, but to sustain itself for the following nine years as an independant state.

I think it's simply a case of Mexico being even less competent than Texas. If Mexico's federal government hadn't been usurped by Santa Anna or if he'd been a competent general, Texas would probably have remained a Mexican state. After gaining its independence (sort of--the Mexican government repudiated the agreement and the boundary between Mexico and Texas was never set), Texas was chronically bankrupt which prevented it from doing any real harm either to itself or anyone else (mustering just enough military force to repulse repeated Mexican incursions). I suspect the entire Texan game plan was simply to hang on long enough to be annexed by the United States.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Boogster

It was a kneejerk reaction. Probably could have done with reading the thread first.

Or the post you were quoting.

[Nondescript Human]

Originally Posted by Zar

production isnt the same (as important) as easily accessible reserves

Sorry, it's actually 3.2%.

However, on your point, Iraq also only has 9.2% of the world's reserves. Less than Iran, but admittedly still significant.

[Vermillion]

I am tired of the western cultural imperialism so omnipresent in these threads. Always the same thing: every thread involving politics inevitably turnd into one or a combination of: bash the US, bash the UK, bash France, bash Germany...

This is an example of the predominance of western cultural imperialism and the 'big-Man' school of Political Science. Why do we always bash these countries? I am tired of it, and I am determined to rectify the situation. No longer will we focus on bashing ONLY the major western powers, I will strive to have us also bash the more ignored smaller countries, less internationally significant but just as worthy of attention and consideration.


So: What about those Damn Burkina-Fasoans? I swear, they abuse thousands of migrant workers every year, paying then slave wages and granting them no legal or administrative protections at all. They CLAIM to be a democracy, but Prime Minister Blaise Compaore has been in power since 1987 and has won a series of questionale elections, under accusations of corruption and vote-rigging from the opposition. Also, everbody knows that Burkina-faso border regions are used as staging areas for rebels from Liberia and Cote D'Ivoire, but nobody does anything about it. Oh, and the capitol of the country is the city of Ouagadougou. What the hell kind of name is that?

[JammyJim]

Verm : Lets bomb them back to the stone age and learn em a lesson. Whos with me!

yeehaa

[Dante Hicks]

If there were people on these forums who were willing to defend third world dictators then you'd find more threads attacking them.

[JammyJim]

there is an arguement which suggest authoritarian regimes (at least in the early stages of economic development) create better conditions for an economy to grow.

however this does presume that the element of corruption and self interest are taken out of the equation.

[DMZ]

Has anyone noticed that nobody dare suggest in any way that Saddam was not the antichrist risen on earth for fear of being accused of supporting him, reprisal or being ostracised? This is where the jingoism has led - even the staunchest opponents of the war have to tiptoe around that subject.

[Vermillion]

Originally Posted by DMZ

Has anyone noticed that nobody dare suggest in any way that Saddam was not the antichrist risen on earth for fear of being accused of supporting him, reprisal or being ostracised? This is where the jingoism has led - even the staunchest opponents of the war have to tiptoe around that subject.

Nobody argues Hussein was not a bad man because.. well, he WAS a bad man. In fact a very bad man. However the 'bad man' argument has undergone a change in the last couple months.


What's really interesting is watching the Right-wing in the US morph its arguments justifying invasion of Iraq in the last year and a bit, every time one of their arguments is dicredited. At first of course it was WMD, then when it became clear these did not exist, the right's argument changed to Hussein being a bad man, and all the mass graves that have been discovered.

Now in the last 2 months that also has disappeared, since it became clear that these mass graves were mostly filled with Kurdish rebels, and that the vast majority of these mass graves were filled prior to 1986, when the US and Iraq were still staunch allies... Now the right is desperatly looking for another excuse to justify its invasion...

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Nondescript Human

Sorry, it's actually 3.2%.

However, on your point, Iraq also only has 9.2% of the world's reserves. Less than Iran, but admittedly still significant.

do you have a source for that?
the opec says that iraq has the 2nd largest prooven reserves after saudi arabia. (and that even after 15 years in which nothing happend in the iraqi oil industry)

[Nondescript Human]

Yeah, but no link. It's from this month's issue of National Geographic. Their main feature is about the dependancy on oil and how prices are going to continue to rise.

Edit: Btw Iraq has the third largest reserves in the world (if you exclude Canadian unconventional tar sand sources), but that's still only 9%. Saudi Arabia have 261,000m barrels, Iran 125,800m and Iraq 115,000m.

[DMZ]

Originally Posted by Vermillion

Nobody argues Hussein was not a bad man because.. well, he WAS a bad man. In fact a very bad man. However the 'bad man' argument has undergone a change in the last couple months.

Yes, it would be impossible to claim that he was not and still be consistent when criticising the American government. What I was trying to say is that regardless of the emphasis placed upon his 'fitness to rule' as an excuse for war mongering, his actions were not out of place in the Middle East. The sickening thing is that I've been made to feel like an apologist for saying that, when I'm merely pointing out that most governments behave in this fashion to a lesser or greater extent.

What's really interesting is watching the Right-wing in the US morph its arguments justifying invasion of Iraq in the last year and a bit, every time one of their arguments is dicredited. At first of course it was WMD, then when it became clear these did not exist, the right's argument changed to Hussein being a bad man, and all the mass graves that have been discovered.

Doesn't something like 50% of the American public believe that the invasion had something to do with 9/11 and Al Qaeda?

Now in the last 2 months that also has disappeared, since it became clear that these mass graves were mostly filled with Kurdish rebels, and that the vast majority of these mass graves were filled prior to 1986, when the US and Iraq were still staunch allies... Now the right is desperatly looking for another excuse to justify its invasion...

I think the biggest coup the right pulled was immediately drawing the debate away from "is it right to invade just because he has WMD?" and straight into the whole argument over whether WMD were present or not. The direction that argument is now morphing into is "would he have been able to produce WMD at some unspecified point in the future?"

[Nondescript Human]

Originally Posted by Vermillion

bashing ONLY the major western powers etc

That's not entirely true, Zimbabwe is a really shit country but Mugabe deservedly comes in for a bashing now and again.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by DMZ

Doesn't something like 50% of the American public believe that the invasion had something to do with 9/11 and Al Qaeda?

What the american public believe is different from how the government justifies its actions. Some people may believe that it was divine retribution, but 'God made me do it' isn't a very good political justification in most countries.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Nondescript Human

Yeah, but no link. It's from this month's issue of National Geographic. Their main feature is about the dependancy on oil and how prices are going to continue to rise.

Edit: Btw Iraq has the third largest reserves in the world (if you exclude Canadian unconventional tar sand sources), but that's still only 9%. Saudi Arabia have 261,000m barrels, Iran 125,800m and Iraq 115,000m.

according to the opec (they should know best) the iran only has 99,000m barrel. plus the data for iraq didnt change in the last 10 years which indicates that they have done nothing to develop their reservers. (there is some pdf-file on opec.org)
even if its only about 10%, thats still more than enough to push down the prices or do some other evil things on the world wide oil market.

[DMZ]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

What the american public believe is different from how the government justifies its actions.

I'm sure they must have got the idea into their heads all by themselves.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

do you have a source for that?
the opec says that iraq has the 2nd largest prooven reserves after saudi arabia. (and that even after 15 years in which nothing happend in the iraqi oil industry)

Proven oil reserves, particularly from OPEC, are fairly questionable. Many sources use the numbers compiled by trade publications, such as the Oil & Gas Journal. These publications simply take the latest numbers supplied by the various countries (a few of which haven't been updated in years--even to subtract the oil extracted and sold each year!).

During the 1980s, OPEC computed export quotas at a percentage of reserves, so OPEC members had a strong incentive to inflate their reserves in order to get larger export quotas. Remarkably, the reserves of many OPEC members doubled or even tripled during this period. Also, both Iraq and Kuwait counted all of the huge disputed Rumaila oil field (which straddles the border between the two countries) in their respective proven reserves.

The bottom line is that any numbers you find on the size of Iraq's proven oil reserves are probably not very accurate.

[Vermillion]

Originally Posted by DMZ

What I was trying to say is that regardless of the emphasis placed upon his 'fitness to rule' as an excuse for war mongering, his actions were not out of place in the Middle East. The sickening thing is that I've been made to feel like an apologist for saying that, when I'm merely pointing out that most governments behave in this fashion to a lesser or greater extent.

Well, I will have to somewhat disagree. While dictatorship is the norm in the middle East, as is fanatic opression of political minorities, religious minorities and women (though women had a better lot in Iraq than any other arab state in the Middle East), what differed Hussein from his Meddle Eastern brethren was the astonishing brutality of his regime against the Kurds. Though we do not know numbers, estimates are that he killed between 10% and 30% of all Kurds in Iraq using methods from areal bombardment to erase villages, to deploying Mustard gas.

Those mass graves the US discovered and their estimated 100,000 occupants are all Kurds, that does set Hussein head and shoulders above his neighbours. Turkey is the other terribly anti-Kurdish state, but even they have never done anything like the what could almost be called genocidal campaign Hussein waged against his Kurdish minority.


He really was a VERY bad man. I'm not saying that justifies the US actions, but there is no denying the extent of his particular badness...

I think the biggest coup the right pulled was immediately drawing the debate away from "is it right to invade just because he has WMD?" and straight into the whole argument over whether WMD were present or not. The direction that argument is now morphing into is "would he have been able to produce WMD at some unspecified point in the future?"

I was actually PRO war at the very beginning, I was defending the war against all my friends, because BOUGHT the lie that Iraq not only had an active nuclear weapons program, but was close to deploying a bomb. To me, having Iraq and Israel as the two nuclear powers in the Middle East was a BAD idea, so I was actually forthe war.

Of course, it turned out that was either 1) the worst intel failure in human history or 2) an outright lie on the part of Bush. Either way, it turned me anti-war in an awful hurry...

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Vermillion

Well, I will have to somewhat disagree. While dictatorship is the norm in the middle East, as is fanatic opression of political minorities, religious minorities and women (though women had a better lot in Iraq than anywhere else in the Middle East),

Israel?

[Nondescript Human]

Originally Posted by DMZ

most governments behave in this fashion to a lesser or greater extent.

This statement is amusingly meaningless.

Though I know what you mean.

[DMZ]

Originally Posted by Nondescript Human

This statement is amusingly meaningless.

As is the thread.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by DMZ

I'm sure they must have got the idea into their heads all by themselves.

The government isn't the only information source you know

[Perle]

Originally Posted by Texan

MAPOU, Haiti (AP) -- Heavy rains threatened the waterlogged southern border of Haiti and Dominican Republic even as rescue workers rushed Saturday to collect decomposing bodies and reach villagers cut off days ago when torrents and mudslides buried entire communities.

Waters are expected to rise along with the official toll of about 1,000 dead in what is being called "one of the worst natural disasters to hit the Caribbean," according to Secretary-General Cesar Gaviria of the Organization of American States.

U.S.-led troops including Marines, Canadians and Chileans on Saturday continued ferrying food, medicine, plastic sheeting for shelter and aid workers by helicopter to the worst-hit Haitian towns of Mapou and Fond Verrettes.
____________________________________________________

I did not realize that Haiti had oil. I hope this will help bring down fuel prices.

oil is the least of the problems with the us foreign policy

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0711-14.htm