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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:26   #1
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Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Due to the publicity the merge has gained, I'm sure you are all aware of the issues surrounding the recent Hydra and Reunion alliance merge.

The reason for the drama is that PATeam mistakenly merged the two alliances when they didn't meet the rules for mergers. The rule that was broken was the two alliances have to total no more than 100 members for two whole weeks before the merge can take place.

The reason the rule got broken is down in part to the HCs of the alliance and the rushed way in which PATeam handled the merge request. Miscommunication all round meant that one member of PATeam staff was under the impression another had already oked the merge. Not wanting to step on toes, this admin authorised the merge despite knowing it was "illegal".

This, quite rightly, caused a little annoyance amongst the community as the two week period in which both alliances have lower planet counts is opportuinty for cheap attacks. The merge in this case removed this period and affected the game accordingly.

There is no easy un-merge process for alliances due to the data structure and logging mechanisms within the game. It would take considerable effort to ensure we unmerge correctly and fairly. With this in mind, and the fact that the merge has been in place for over 24 hours now leads me to the following announcement:

The new Reunion alliance is currently placed 4th in the alliance rankings. About 4 weeks until the end of round we are confident that they will not make the number 1 position. The new Reunion currently only have one planet in the top 30 planet ranks and we are again confident that this merge will not adversely affect the final planet rankings.

Taking all these issues into account, I can tell you that the merge will stay effective. I realise this will upset some of our users, however all I can do is offer the following apology:

I realise (even on a personal level) that this was a mistake and the merge should not have taken place. The alliance merge rules are stated quite clearly in the manual. The process for an alliance merge has been upgraded within our admin tools and only the top level admins now have access to this function. We have all be made aware, within the team, that communication needs to be better on issues such as this but (and I know it sounds a little shallow) we will do our best to ensure it doesn't happen again.

If you have any flaming to do, please think about what you're writing, make it constructive and you'll warrant an official reply. My sincere apologies again,

Kloopy.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:34   #2
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Well, good luck Hydra+Reunion.
I hope you guys can do ok
Good Luck, coz you might need it.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:37   #3
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

flame flame flame


Anyway, the merge happened. I didn't expect it to be undone seeing the problems that move would cause, so best of luck to Reunion and Hydra together. I hope you manage to to cause some havoc up there .

On a sidenote, i find it a bit shallow to see PaTeam mention you are confident Reunion won't be competing for #1 as we are still underway in the round and its still possible to see some changes happening in those 4 weeks. Who knows what they have in store for us. Imho this is a rather 'bad' excuse for not undoing it. I rather have you say it was an honest mistake, but what is done is done and it would only harm the game more if we undid it again
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:37   #4
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

I hope you have learned from this. I really do
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:39   #5
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:39   #6
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

As the guys leaving Insomnia seems to also be joining Reunion I am abit uneasy about the claims about them not being able to fight for the 1'rst place.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:39   #7
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Idler
I hope you have learned from this. I really do
You say that like someone died or something.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:43   #8
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Reunion for #1 \o/
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 00:01   #9
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Wandows, I won't say happily admit, but I'll admit none-the-less that it was indeed an honest mistake, confusion withing Hydra HCs, Reunion HCs and PATeam. It's unfortunately it had to happen so close the end the of the round when things begin to get really close, but such is life.

And as for learning from mistakes, the admin who went against his judgement and merged anyway has already said he's glad the admin level has been raised, he's certianly learnt. As for me, I think I'll take a little more notice of major support issues from now on, just to keep an extra set of eyes on things.

And yes, good luck to the new Reunion alliance, I dare you to prove my assumptions wrong about your abilities to climb the ranks. Good luck to you.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 00:12   #10
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloopy
Not wanting to step on toes, this admin authorised the merge despite knowing it was "illegal".
Clearly the right type of person to be running a game, it fills me with confidence in PATeams ability to run Planetarion. Thank you!

For anyone who needs a translation:

What ****ing idiots!
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 00:42   #11
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zo0f
Clearly the right type of person to be running a game, it fills me with confidence in PATeams ability to run Planetarion. Thank you!

For anyone who needs a translation:

What ****ing idiots!
Quite close to agreeing with you there.

But what is done is done.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 01:35   #12
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloopy
The reason for the drama is that PATeam mistakenly merged the two alliances when they didn't meet the rules for mergers. The rule that was broken was the two alliances have to total no more than 100 members for two whole weeks before the merge can take place.
Why not build this into the admin tools as they already prevent mergers where alliances have a membercount of 100+ at the time of merge? Also, if the rule is that the 100 member limit between the 2 alliances is reached 2 weeks before the merger, then why did Veneratio have to kick members a few ticks before merging with HR in order to complete the merge?
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 01:38   #13
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Can we get the current rules regarding alliance merges put into the manual please. I know that its a tad hypocritcal for me to be asking this since I never got round to it back in the early days of merges when they were still done manually by Spinner, but now they're an established part of gameplay and politics I think they need adding.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 02:42   #14
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
Can we get the current rules regarding alliance merges put into the manual please. I know that its a tad hypocritcal for me to be asking this since I never got round to it back in the early days of merges when they were still done manually by Spinner, but now they're an established part of gameplay and politics I think they need adding.
What good is putting it in the manual if it isn't being enforced anyway?
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 07:22   #15
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Oops, Reunion got 10 more members.. I wonder where they come from. Very close to 3rd place now.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 08:00   #16
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
Can we get the current rules regarding alliance merges put into the manual please. I know that its a tad hypocritcal for me to be asking this since I never got round to it back in the early days of merges when they were still done manually by Spinner, but now they're an established part of gameplay and politics I think they need adding.
That rule has been in the manual all the time.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 08:45   #17
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

What if they reach #1? Then they have gained #1 illegally. Not only is this a blatant error, imho most others will also never acknowledge Reunion as the winning alliance by the community. (Except by the new reunion of course).

What if they reach any other rank? I doubt that the alliances ranked under them will easily recognise that as the official Reunion ranking?

I do not blame the new reunion for this, i do blame PA team.

In my opinion, the decision to not unmerge them is way too easily taken. If you cannot unmerge them, then PA team should seriously consider storing some history. If you provide a game, provide a quality game please.

/me waits for the next mistake.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 09:01   #18
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Whats done is done, obviously to a certain extent its going to have a large impact, however all I can say is good luck to reunion for the remainder of round 14. Theres no point being bitter to either the HC team of reunion nor the pateam. All that we can hope is that the community and the pateam learned a lesson today and will take note of its actions.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 09:58   #19
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
What if they reach #1? Then they have gained #1 illegally. Not only is this a blatant error, imho most others will also never acknowledge Reunion as the winning alliance by the community. (Except by the new reunion of course).

What if they reach any other rank? I doubt that the alliances ranked under them will easily recognise that as the official Reunion ranking?

I do not blame the new reunion for this, i do blame PA team.

In my opinion, the decision to not unmerge them is way too easily taken. If you cannot unmerge them, then PA team should seriously consider storing some history. If you provide a game, provide a quality game please.

/me waits for the next mistake.

tbh Remy, please think about it. Do you really think the 72 hours wait would have had a big impact on this ? If you are a "clever" play you know how to save your fleet, it would have been maybe a few roids which would were missing but it wouldnt have done that much of harm.

Btw we tried to undo the merge, but it was technically not possible it seems. And wtf are you thinking, its still like 3 to 4 weeks to go into this round...alot can happen - do you give up that quickly ???

Please think about, as wrong as it was - no doubts in that now, it were 72 hours where you still can defend bs/cr and fr/de incs (to a certain extend) and where, as said above, people can run their fleets if needed. Of course is skipping the 72 hours an advantage but you overrate it by far.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 10:03   #20
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

This is what, the 5th decent alliance we've lost so far this round? Well, good luck guys, hope you do well together.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 10:15   #21
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

1 1up 76827 91 1,956,142 178,009,012
2 LCH 70134 92 1,799,692 165,571,666
3 Reunion 66357 93 1,778,557 165,405,883

I'd say they're contending for the nr1 spot now, don't you think?
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 10:58   #22
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Well they have recruited every man and there dog from about 12 different alliances.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 10:58   #23
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

That was the intention, yes. And there is still plenty of time for the round to end. So if Reunion end up #1 alliance, i won't have a single problem with it. It means they would have earned it, despite of the merger.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:16   #24
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
Well they have recruited every man and there dog from about 12 different alliances.
Reunion, home of the bg's?
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:23   #25
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

And now there up to 2nd. Played PA
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:26   #26
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Reunion, home of the bg's?
Their name is well chosen to be the home of all BG's
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:29   #27
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

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Originally Posted by ReligFree
And now there up to 2nd. Played PA

ive to question it again, dont you think this would have happened anyways ?
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:29   #28
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

This round prolly wont be remembered for much anyways..
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:31   #29
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Their name is well chosen to be the home of all BG's

i agree with you kj - as much as i dislike that :/
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:48   #30
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

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Originally Posted by Kloopy

The new Reunion alliance is currently placed 4th in the alliance rankings. About 4 weeks until the end of round we are confident that they will not make the number 1 position. The new Reunion currently only have one planet in the top 30 planet ranks and we are again confident that this merge will not adversely affect the final planet rankings.
well, if you would have checked things a bit better you would have known that the people that left Insomnia where ehading for reunion, and thus making them a candidate for Nr1. but for some strange reason you guys always do what seems to be the worst

ohw well, what happened happend, lets just hope they won't end Nr1
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[00:22] <Doom> Where as in most cases it appears multing is an individual thing, LDK organises it and uses it. Making it an effective unit with a small number of players. It makes sense just not part of the rules. They just organised cheating =-)
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:49   #31
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

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Originally Posted by derry
well, if you would have checked things a bit better you would have known that the people that left Insomnia where ehading for reunion, and thus making them a candidate for Nr1. but for some strange reason you guys always do what seems to be the worst

ohw well, what happened happend, lets just hope they won't end Nr1

well, explain me which harm was done regarding to the ranks ?
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:50   #32
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Their name is well chosen to be the home of all BG's
It was their Evul plan all along
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:56   #33
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legator
well, explain me which harm was done regarding to the ranks ?
hmm, what harm done regarding the ranks, maybe the allies that have been pushed down a spot due to this illegal merge?
But then again, it's hardly reunions fault that pa-team breaks their own rules.
gl reunion i suppose
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:59   #34
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

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Originally Posted by Remy
In my opinion, the decision to not unmerge them is way too easily taken. If you cannot unmerge them, then PA team should seriously consider storing some history. If you provide a game, provide a quality game please.

/me waits for the next mistake.
They do store history, of each tick iirc, but this is as a mysql dump and restoring it would mean a rollback for the whole universe
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:05   #35
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legator
well, explain me which harm was done regarding to the ranks ?

Alliance History
Date # Rank Roid Name Avg. Member Members Size Score Score Roids
05-08-22 1 5 Hydra 1,435,406 60 32,312 86,124,386 4.75% 3.07%
05-08-21 2 7 Hydra 1,370,358 60 31,351 82,221,511 4.01% 5.42%
05-08-20 3 7 Hydra 1,317,481 60 29,740 79,048,894 4.78% 2.08%

last info i could find on member numbers of Hydra --> at 22/08 Reunion had 57 members, or to say it different, Reunion and Hydra couldn't have merged for the coming 2 weeks(14days-3 days by now) yet. leaving Reunion on a "not for Nr1 spot" for 2 more weeks. And in 2 weeks the war (proberly (cant say that for sure)) would have ended, and you proberly wouldn't have been able to make an impact, but that last bit is something i can't tell, so no use going on about these last 2 sentences)

and to answer your question then, Hydra(also Reunion was easier then they now are) was easy roids, you gained more roids (and thus value) then you should have gotten if you where forced to wait. that is whats done to the rankings, but you knew that, i wonder why you asked it though.
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[00:22] <Doom> Where as in most cases it appears multing is an individual thing, LDK organises it and uses it. Making it an effective unit with a small number of players. It makes sense just not part of the rules. They just organised cheating =-)
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:11   #36
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

to be honest, whats bothering me isnt that PAteam merged them, but it is that they have a lot more roids than they would have been when they joined...

This means they get a lot of extra resources and alot of extra ships to pick on those they overtook...
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:13   #37
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by derry
Alliance History
Date # Rank Roid Name Avg. Member Members Size Score Score Roids
05-08-22 1 5 Hydra 1,435,406 60 32,312 86,124,386 4.75% 3.07%
05-08-21 2 7 Hydra 1,370,358 60 31,351 82,221,511 4.01% 5.42%
05-08-20 3 7 Hydra 1,317,481 60 29,740 79,048,894 4.78% 2.08%

last info i could find on member numbers of Hydra --> at 22/08 Reunion had 57 members, or to say it different, Reunion and Hydra couldn't have merged for the coming 2 weeks(14days-3 days by now) yet. leaving Reunion on a "not for Nr1 spot" for 2 more weeks. And in 2 weeks the war (proberly (cant say that for sure)) would have ended, and you proberly wouldn't have been able to make an impact, but that last bit is something i can't tell, so no use going on about these last 2 sentences)

and to answer your question then, Hydra(also Reunion was easier then they now are) was easy roids, you gained more roids (and thus value) then you should have gotten if you where forced to wait. that is whats done to the rankings, but you knew that, i wonder why you asked it though.
if pateam would have said that we cant merge, people would have left hydra and joined us after 72 hours......roids would have been lost, but it wouldnt have been a big damage. it would have been different YES i know, and its an advantage YES i know but dont overrate it to much...
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:16   #38
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
to be honest, whats bothering me isnt that PAteam merged them, but it is that they have a lot more roids than they would have been when they joined...

This means they get a lot of extra resources and alot of extra ships to pick on those they overtook...

i have to agree there, thats the advantage and as said, we tried to undo it but it was technically not possible.

but keep in mind, you can defend also when people are not in the same tag (ok, fi/co are hard :P). it would have been a differense, yes - as said no doubts there - but its no THAT much of a harm, we would have been still there where we are.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:16   #39
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legator
if pateam would have said that we cant merge, people would have left hydra and joined us after 72 hours......roids would have been lost, but it wouldnt have been a big damage
true, it aint yours (Reunions) fault pa team ****ed up.
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[18:45] <Helix> if two wrongs dont make a right its twice as wrong to do something wrong to right it

[00:22] <Doom> Where as in most cases it appears multing is an individual thing, LDK organises it and uses it. Making it an effective unit with a small number of players. It makes sense just not part of the rules. They just organised cheating =-)
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:22   #40
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legator
i have to agree there, thats the advantage and as said, we tried to undo it but it was technically not possible.

but keep in mind, you can defend also when people are not in the same tag (ok, fi/co are hard :P). it would have been a differense, yes - as said no doubts there - but its no THAT much of a harm, we would have been still there where we are.
Just ask PA Team to delete 10k of your alliance's roids?
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:23   #41
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

*imagines the headaches involves for them if they are asked*
You'd have to work out which of the planets to take it from, and what ratio to take from each, not to mention what numbers
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:29   #42
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

easy

they got 67k roids, take 1/6th from each planet, voila 10k roids
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[18:45] <Helix> if two wrongs dont make a right its twice as wrong to do something wrong to right it

[00:22] <Doom> Where as in most cases it appears multing is an individual thing, LDK organises it and uses it. Making it an effective unit with a small number of players. It makes sense just not part of the rules. They just organised cheating =-)
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:30   #43
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

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Originally Posted by Phil^
*imagines the headaches involves for them if they are asked*
You'd have to work out which of the planets to take it from, and what ratio to take from each, not to mention what numbers
Still easier than unmerging - and something doable. But anyways, it was not meant serious at all - the roids would have to be distributed between the other alliances in order to have the desired effect and so on...
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:43   #44
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Just ask PA Team to delete 10k of your alliance's roids?
Start with their top planets. If their #1 planet has 3k roids, remove his 3k roids ... then move on the next biggest etc etc.
Obviously that's the ONLY fair way to compensate, not? Maybe let Ruinion start with -10k roids next round

P.S. that was pure sarcasm and in no way serious
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:44   #45
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

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Originally Posted by derry
easy

they got 67k roids, take 1/6th from each planet, voila 10k roids
Technically you'd have over 11k roids then
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:46   #46
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

or maybe u can ask them to kick the hydra members and reaccept them after 72 ticks .... :xmas:
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:47   #47
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legator
i have to agree there, thats the advantage and as said, we tried to undo it but it was technically not possible.

but keep in mind, you can defend also when people are not in the same tag (ok, fi/co are hard :P). it would have been a differense, yes - as said no doubts there - but its no THAT much of a harm, we would have been still there where we are.
Yep you would still have been in the same spot, not denying that, and thats why an unmerge is damaging to the game...

But, as i said, with the extra roids, its more likely that you will do a slightly better job than without them, its unfair, but nothing will be done against it im afraid..
Im not bitter or anything, just viewing my opinions about this case, and thats whats AD is all about
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:54   #48
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
Well they have recruited every man and there dog from about 12 different alliances.
That's what you call a reunion
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:56   #49
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

I dont think that everyone that was in Hydra at the moment they merged would apply again for the new alliance, most of them yes, but some are inactive and not playing really, so im guessing that around 85-90% would return. But I guess that these merges havent done Reunion any less prone to getting targeted, so the community will fix the screw up from the PA-Crews side
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:58   #50
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Re: Hydra & Reunion Merge - An Official Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodfellah
or maybe u can ask them to kick the hydra members and reaccept them after 72 ticks .... :xmas:
does seem fair, but doubt it reunion will do it :xmas:
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