how do you become pa team

[Barrow|Pony]

Originally Posted by Timeline

yes I agree departments will need to be monitored to assess their performance...however it is in my opinion it is the department managers role to perform this assessment, not the communities

Considering how often internal oversight has led to successful development of an adept, responsive, efficient PA team in the past...I'd say the community has a bigger role to play than you might think.

[Phil^]

Originally Posted by Kal

I'm assumign the one people things means overight is the writing policy for pateam one? Thatwould perhaps have been reprhased as writing policy on behalf of PATeam. Its all about simply making sure the polcies we ahve in place are uptodate and all in one place so everyone who needs to know them is aware of them.

and giving those in charge of it the ability to ram through any unpopular policies at a whim since they are the ones in charge of writing it after all.

Originally Posted by Kal

I guess the other one that could be seen as oversight is the complaints one. Again thats not about us being the people who "solve" the complaints about PATeam members, thats about making sure that if there is say a thread where PATeam as a whole are critcised then one person shoudl speak rather than everyone speaking and confusing the issue. If the issue is with a specific departments decision e.g. lets say the alliance size limit thread then in that case appoco would be the relevant person to reply.

he may be the relevent person to reply but im fairly sure that there will be an example in future of this department overreaching its authority.
Its been done before with pateam members after all, a rather infamous incident where i was very brutal to you all with my opinion of how large a screwup you had collectively made.

there is also the resolving of staff disputes function where you take on the role of judge, jury and executioner - and given that a number of pateam members have already behaved poorly when it comes to pursuing personal vendettas against other members of staff, its fair to say i have zero confidence in pateams ability to manage such disputes in other departments properly.

Originally Posted by Kal

Its also woth pointing out that no PATeam "titles" or responsbilties are self appointed, we discuss who should do what as a team.

you appointed yourself the head role of this department, im fairly sure this qualifies - and if you remember on the ( now deleted ) thread in the planetarion reps section i criticised you on this

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Barrow|Pony

Considering how often internal oversight has led to successful development of an adept, responsive, efficient PA team in the past...I'd say the community has a bigger role to play than you might think.

Quoted for truth.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Timeline

And tbh with your final line you are proving how closeminded certain people are becoming. Give people a chance to change things...you might not agree with some or all of them, but prejudging something because there is no reasoning behind it is petty at best. Heartless when you were involved with the now defunct pan idea you offered constructive advice and criticism when needed...now all you seem to do is flame. Go back to the old self of you...as this one is just bitter and twisted.

Basically you just reap what you sow (well probably not you personally as I cannot remember having talked to you at any point in time).

You people got pointed onto several issues for long enough, most importantly about the lack of a vision in game development. Sometimes nicely, sometimes not so nicely. There never happened to happen anything at all. Discussions never happened, people like Kal and Appocomaster talked about a vision on IRC yet wrote nothing about it on the development forums.

Eventually this lead to me and all other coders being removed again. Yes, we were not doing much after the initial three weeks - but then we were not interested into a passport that much anyway. We wanted to create a kick-ass game, not some personal passport prestige project.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Phil^

and giving those in charge of it the ability to ram through any unpopular policies at a whim since they are the ones in charge of writing it after all.

I still think you are getting the wrong end of the stick. All policy changes are discussed by pateam as a whole - we are simply the poor sods that have to do the actual writing and make sure things are up to date, match new game features etc. e.g. in preivous rounds there was a policy on reset/deletetions, now we have a feature for that in game so te policy is no longer needed.

Originally Posted by Phil^

he may be the relevent person to reply but im fairly sure that there will be an example in future of this department overreaching its authority.
Its been done before with pateam members after all, a rather infamous incident where i was very brutal to you all with my opinion of how large a screwup you had collectively made.

If authority is overreached thats a pruely internal PATeam matter, and I'm sure the others will be quite happy to shout at us on the communities behalf.

Originally Posted by Phil^

there is also the resolving of staff disputes function where you take on the role of judge, jury and executioner - and given that a number of pateam members have already behaved poorly when it comes to pursuing personal vendettas against other members of staff, its fair to say i have zero confidence in pateams ability to manage such disputes in other departments properly. you appointed yourself the head role of this department, im fairly sure this qualifies - and if you remember on the ( now deleted ) thread in the planetarion reps section i criticised you on this

one of the reasons for this role is the perceived lack of confidence, by having polcies on disciplinary procedures the effects of personal feelings can be nullified as they would be in the work place. I did not appoint myself to head of this department - the current Operations department was a merging of several roles - PATeam decided as a collective group who should do what roles in a review prior to signups open. The decision was taken to give a specific announcement on this department as its a new set of roles that we felt people needed to understand - yes many of the jobs were done previously by various people but the joining of the roles is very new indeed. In the near future there will be either an announcement or a PD post explaining what everyone in PATeam does to further clarify the situation.

[robban1]

Originally Posted by Kal

In the near future there will be either an announcement or a PD post explaining what everyone in PATeam does to further clarify the situation.

well the fact that you actually think you need to do a post like that gives me a hint how far away rom the community the pa-team really is

why dont you nerds step down from your high horses and do a reality check once in a while for a change

we dont need an announcement of crap, we need you guys to actually to the shit you claims to do...

[Kal]

Originally Posted by robban1

well the fact that you actually think you need to do a post like that gives me a hint how far away rom the community the pa-team really is

why dont you nerds step down from your high horses and do a reality check once in a while for a change

we dont need an announcement of crap, we need you guys to actually to the shit you claims to do...

I believe people need to know what we are meant to do before we can be judged on whether we do it or not. The announcement is needed becuase quite a lot has changed from last round. We are hoping that the next portal will have among other things the ability for PATeam "blogs" so individual PATeam members have the ability to keep in touch with the community with the various things they are doing.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Kal

I believe people need to know what we are meant to do before we can be judged on whether we do it or not. The announcement is needed becuase quite a lot has changed from last round. We are hoping that the next portal will have among other things the ability for PATeam "blogs" so individual PATeam members have the ability to keep in touch with the community with the various things they are doing.

PA Team has way too much self-management involved. If you guys would just stick to your basic tasks - provide support for the game, hunt cheaters and continue developing the game - then nobody would complain I guess. Problem right now is that all you guys try to do is justifying why you are called pa team, and that looks very much like some sort of nepotism going on there. There is no need to justify your PA Team position when you simply do what you are supposed to do instead of merging and branching "departments" as you please, making announcements about shiny smoke and mirror titles and so on.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Heartless

PA Team has way too much self-management involved. If you guys would just stick to your basic tasks - provide support for the game, hunt cheaters and continue developing the game - then nobody would complain I guess. Problem right now is that all you guys try to do is justifying why you are called pa team, and that looks very much like some sort of nepotism going on there. There is no need to justify your PA Team position when you simply do what you are supposed to do instead of merging and branching "departments" as you please, making announcements about shiny smoke and mirror titles and so on.

There is more to running a game than support, hutning cheaters and development. For example, becuase in previous rounds no specific person in PATeam was responsible for say annoucning the round name competition it has always been annoucced too late and rushed. Myself and Chef are now tasked to make sure that doesn't happen in the future.

There is lots of organisation involved with running a game, and by giving the bulk of it to myself and Chef we free up appoco/cin/marv to carry out the core tasks you described. I don't really see how giving Appoco in particular less to worry about can be a bad thing.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Kal

There is more to running a game than support, hutning cheaters and development. For example, becuase in previous rounds no specific person in PATeam was responsible for say annoucning the round name competition it has always been annoucced too late and rushed. Myself and Chef are now tasked to make sure that doesn't happen in the future.

There is lots of organisation involved with running a game, and by giving the bulk of it to myself and Chef we free up appoco/cin/marv to carry out the core tasks you described. I don't really see how giving Appoco in particular less to worry about can be a bad thing.

I think this is one of the worst arguments I have ever seen.

Yes, there are continous tasks which have to be performed while running this game. A round name competition is one of those. These continous tasks fall into existing departments, mainly into the development department. Maybe you still haven't realized that development contains a lot more than simply having code monkeys doing what you tell them. Development includes the vision holder / game designer, as well as coders and graphic artists, and most of all a kind of project manager (who can nicely fall together with being the vision holder, for instance).
That project manager would arrange the continous tasks - i.e. setting round dates, dates for releasing the round naming competition and so on.
There is, however, no reason for having a special department for every other continous task to be performed (exceptions: lazyness, nepotism and/or incapability).

edit: some visual clearification for Kal.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Heartless

I think this is one of the worst arguments I have ever seen.

Yes, there are continous tasks which have to be performed while running this game. A round name competition is one of those. These continous tasks fall into existing departments, mainly into the development department. Maybe you still haven't realized that development contains a lot more than simply having code monkeys doing what you tell them. Development includes the vision holder / game designer, as well as coders and graphic artists, and most of all a kind of project manager (who can nicely fall together with being the vision holder, for instance).
That project manager would arrange the continous tasks - i.e. setting round dates, dates for releasing the round naming competition and so on.
There is, however, no reason for having a special department for every other continous task to be performed (exceptions: lazyness, nepotism and/or incapability).

The Operations Department effectivly is Project Management. Where I work Project Management is a function owned by the Operations Director.

A standard development project would have a technical lead and a project management lead. Appoco is the development lead and I am the project management lead. My "department" happens to have some other functions as well that in a business would be done by groups such as HR, commercial, marketing, strategy, etc. We decided on the name Opearations to effectivly cover eveything none "engineering".

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Kal

The Operations Department effectivly is Project Management. Where I work Project Management is a function owned by the Operations Director.

A standard development project would have a technical lead and a project management lead. Appoco is the development lead and I am the project management lead. My "department" happens to have some other functions as well that in a business would be done by groups such as HR, commercial, marketing, strategy, etc. We decided on the name Opearations to effectivly cover eveything none "engineering".

So, basically you created a new department just to have a new department? I haven't seen any reasons why it cannot fall into a development department like the one I described in my previous post.
Did you actually read and understand my previous post? I just edited it to point you to what you have to argue against.

[Chef!]

Originally Posted by Heartless

So, basically you created a new department just to have a new department? I haven't seen any reasons why it cannot fall into a development department like the one I described in my previous post.
Did you actually read and understand my previous post? I just edited it to point you to what you have to argue against.

whether it was in a new department or in the development department it would still require people to carry out its tasks.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Chef!

whether it was in a new department or in the development department it would still require people to carry out its tasks.

I agree there. But if people in the development (and other) teams are already not doing this work you speak about, why shift them into a new department?
Also you might want to read what I wrote in the post before the post you quoted.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Heartless

So, basically you created a new department just to have a new department? I haven't seen any reasons why it cannot fall into a development department like the one I described in my previous post.
Did you actually read and understand my previous post? I just edited it to point you to what you have to argue against.

I get what you are saying, however when i use the term development I use it in the engineering context. Development department to me says the people who develop the physical game. While some of what Chef and I do would come under that, such as perhaps setting round dates. A lot of it is much more top-level.

now you could argue the the "development" of Planetarion covers things beyond the game, but I think putting everything under development would be confusing.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Kal

I get what you are saying, however when i use the term development I use it in the engineering context. Development department to me says the people who develop the physical game. While some of what Chef and I do would come under that, such as perhaps setting round dates. A lot of it is much more top-level.

now you could argue the the "development" of Planetarion covers things beyond the game, but I think putting everything under development would be confusing.

Ok, so to sum it up:
You created a new department because you thought that you'd need a new department and more titles people can put into their oh-so-important signatures; while the really important work that needs to be done lays unaddressed for the 4th round in a row.

Correct?

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Heartless

Ok, so to sum it up:
You created a new department because you thought that you'd need a new department and more titles people can put into their oh-so-important signatures; while the really important work that needs to be done lays unaddressed for the 4th round in a row.

Correct?

no we made it clear that Appoco is now free to spend his time purely on game feature development and coding rather than worrying about all the other stuff and getting distracted.

Its also worth noting that the number of people that I would call developers is also increasing with myk joining pateam, and its possible some more people will be joining in the future.

[Heartless]

Well I guess time will tell then! Talking about time, didn't you say that you want to release your vision on PA some time?
I guess that vision is done by now, since that is far more important for the game than the new department you created

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Heartless

Well I guess time will tell then! Talking about time, didn't you say that you want to release your vision on PA some time?
I guess that vision is done by now, since that is far more important for the game than the new department you created

yes I agree its more important, and its one of the things that comes under the new department.

However, the last few weeks have been crazy at work, and I've rarely had time to look at the thing. However, I should have some time this weekend to get a final draft done, which will be reviewed by PA staff as a whole, and then I should have time to get it sorted before tick start.

I'm currently debating whether to have numerical goals in it e.g. X players in round Y etc.

[Barrow|Pony]

I'm sorry Kal, honestly sorry, but this...

Originally Posted by Kal

There is more to running a game than support, hutning cheaters and development. For example, becuase in previous rounds no specific person in PATeam was responsible for say annoucning the round name competition it has always been annoucced too late and rushed. Myself and Chef are now tasked to make sure that doesn't happen in the future.

is totally backwards.

Let's prioritize here. In order to run Planetarion sustainably, you need to focus on certain aspects of business:

Customer support - as with any business - should be your main focus. Included in that are maintaining the integrity of the game (i.e. the support team and the multihunters), so as to provide the game as advertised to your paying customers.

Next, you want to grow your business and keep your customer base active within the community. The way to do this is to develop new features, continuously improve the game and hopefully, attract new players.

I think we can all agree that these are major facets of building a successful enterprise, specifically Planetarion.

The problem seems to come when we try to implement those. The current situation is so self-absorbed with 'streamlining', 'removing burden', and 'prioritizing', that focus has been completely lost into thoroughly unnecessary bureaucracy and has become completely contradictory to the laudable goals of progress and efficiency.

We don't need a department to set the round dates, set up a poll to determine the name of the round, etc. We need 1 person. That person does not need to be in charge of 'writing PA team policy', or anything of the sort. With productive, dedicated people in positions of authority, the Department of Maintaining Departments becomes redundant and should be eliminated.

To save this game we need to rapidly reestablish focus on development. I find the support team to be excellent and the multihunters to do their job capably enough - but there is not enough focus on development, whether it be defining Appocco's job in a more direct fashion so he doesnt have to worry about shit aside from development, or including more theoretical and practical contributions like jer's and Heartless', change needs to be made and we cannot afford to have more excuses. We do not need to grant ceremonial positions and spend time on useless (i.e. portal/passport) programs.

FOCUS. EYE ON THE PRIZE.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Barrow|Pony

I'm sorry Kal, honestly sorry, but this...



is totally backwards.

Let's prioritize here. In order to run Planetarion sustainably, you need to focus on certain aspects of business:

Customer support - as with any business - should be your main focus. Included in that are maintaining the integrity of the game (i.e. the support team and the multihunters), so as to provide the game as advertised to your paying customers.

Next, you want to grow your business and keep your customer base active within the community. The way to do this is to develop new features, continuously improve the game and hopefully, attract new players.

I think we can all agree that these are major facets of building a successful enterprise, specifically Planetarion.

The problem seems to come when we try to implement those. The current situation is so self-absorbed with 'streamlining', 'removing burden', and 'prioritizing', that focus has been completely lost into thoroughly unnecessary bureaucracy and has become completely contradictory to the laudable goals of progress and efficiency.

We don't need a department to set the round dates, set up a poll to determine the name of the round, etc. We need 1 person. That person does not need to be in charge of 'writing PA team policy', or anything of the sort. With productive, dedicated people in positions of authority, the Department of Maintaining Departments becomes redundant and should be eliminated.

To save this game we need to rapidly reestablish focus on development. I find the support team to be excellent and the multihunters to do their job capably enough - but there is not enough focus on development, whether it be defining Appocco's job in a more direct fashion so he doesnt have to worry about shit aside from development, or including more theoretical and practical contributions like jer's and Heartless', change needs to be made and we cannot afford to have more excuses. We do not need to grant ceremonial positions and spend time on useless (i.e. portal/passport) programs.

FOCUS. EYE ON THE PRIZE.

I think perhaps people are minsunderstanding the use of the word department. We don;t mean we are creating an entire staff to do all theese jobs, in the case of Operations it simply means that theese are the activties Chef and I wil concentrate on in order to free up Appoco to do the other more important jobs.

In essence Chef and I are doing the duller and more boring jobs that need to be done, but are often overlooked. I'll use the round name competition example again - every round this happens, yet every round we allways forget to do this until the last minute etc. This will hopefully change that.

Now everyone in PATeam also has an input into development and improving the game, this should be taken for granted really. The deparments and titles mainly are just areas of responsibility people have in addition to this.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Kal

The deparments and titles mainly are just areas of responsibility people have in addition to this.

Then just step back to the traditional way of calling all those people PA Team?

Also, what is so utterly bad to have round name competition done in the very last minute possible? Basically nothing, no?

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Heartless

Then just step back to the traditional way of calling all those people PA Team?

Also, what is so utterly bad to have round name competition done in the very last minute possible? Basically nothing, no?

it means we end up with not great round names like this one, becuase submission, short listing and voting have to be done in a very very short period of time.

I haven't discussed this with PATeam, but something I have been thinking about is a system along the lines of this.

We have PATeam and within that areas of responsibility - I personaly see no reason why we need heads and deputies of department.

So as an example we might have the following statement:

All of PATeam are responsible for developing and running Planetarion in addition the following responsibilities exist:

Appocomaster - coding
Myk - coding
Kloopy - coding
JJ - forums
Mushroom - #planetarion
Marv - customer support
Timeline - customer support
Cin - mulithunters
Kal - organisation, marketing, strategy, communications (or just call it operations)
Chef - organisation, marketing, strategy, communications (or just call it operations)

[Barrow|Pony]

Instead of ignoring what I said to teach me the definition of "department", pay attention.

OK - great. So now we can have an earlier naming competition so a lot of people can get feedback in (right). What is it you and Chef are going to for the rest of the round?

Originally Posted by Kal

- Maintaining Staff Records.

inherently crucial to the survival of planetarion

Writing Policy for PATeam.

so much for departmental autonomy we've heard so much about?

Setting Round Dates.

job description fluff. This should take a grand total of 3 minutes to decide. keep up the good work.

Being the third party in resolving staff disputes

so much for departmental autonomy we've heard so much about?

Improving the PATeams reputation with the community

just a hunch here, but making progress in developing the game would go a lot farther than your forum activity has.

- Managing the round 19 portal and portal team (coming in the next few days)

TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY USELESS

Developing methods to market Planetarion to its target audience

good.

Dealing with complaints and giving responses to complaints on the forums

well done so far. er..

Making game announcements

again, something that should take a grand total of 10 minutes.

Setting long term goals

good luck doing this without actual development plans.


These things are, without exception, secondary or tertiary goals. Making them the primary focus of the PA Team is, as I stated before, thoroughly backwards.

I apologize for the flame-style, but it's maybe a good lesson to actually address what has been said in previous posts, rather than glossing over them.

[xontas]

i get the feeling PAteam is working more on organising the organisation
the focus should be on the game

a department for this and a department for that

lets keep it simple and try not to create ranks and level in the PAteam
it only gives you guys who are there for the rank not the people

[Heartless]

And I thought you weren't picky, barrow

He is totally correct there, though.

[Kal]

While some people may thing portal's and passports are entirly useless, we do not and they will form a part of our long term strategy. However for obvious reasons more resources will be devoted to game development.

now I fully concede that the current portal is completely and utterly useless - this is precisly why we want to improve it, so that the site that new customers see is actually useful and informative.

I also think people in general underestimate how time consuling the organisational side of PA is, from real world experiance if running teams that arn't located its a difficult task and something that does take up real time.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by xontas

lets keep it simple and try not to create ranks and level in the PAteam
it only gives you guys who are there for the rank not the people

I agree, which is why I suggested removing ranks.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Kal

While some people may thing portal's and passports are entirly useless, we do not and they will form a part of our long term strategy. However for obvious reasons more resources will be devoted to game development.

How do a portal and a passport improve the gaming experience? That is the very first thing that needs fixing.

Originally Posted by Kal

I agree, which is why I just suggested removing ranks to make you people happy.

FYP.

[Barrow|Pony]

I have a great suggestion. Make me in charge of setting the round dates. I will be the leader of the Round Date Team and streamline the process so as to let Kal focus on other important aspects of the game.

I have years of experience picking dates (just yesterday I picked a date for my vacation), and by creating the Department of Round Date Setting, we will further define our roles and obligations, so Appocco can save Planetarion.

DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM WITH THIS?

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Barrow|Pony

I have a great suggestion. Make me in charge of setting the round dates. I will be the leader of the Round Date Team and streamline the process so as to let Kal focus on other important aspects of the game.

I have years of experience picking dates (just yesterday I picked a date for my vacation), and by creating the Department of Round Date Setting, we will further define our roles and obligations, so Appocco can save Planetarion.

DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM WITH THIS?

If life was as trivial as you make out then yes it would be silly. But there are a signifcant number of organisational tasks that take place - e.g. working with netgamers to improve cservice support for alliances, planning round start and end dates, gaps between rounds, making sure all pre and post round tasks are completed. Now I know all of that doesn't sound that complicated, but unfortunatly it is far from simple with the current game code - in fact having a passport would actually simplify all of this and free up more time to work on the game.

[A2]

Round dates themselves shouldn't be set in stone too far in advance. It is fine to be vague about it in a "we want a round starting in the new year, a round starting around Easter lasting until summer, a round over summer, and a round to take us through the autumn until Christmas", but specific dates can lead to future problems. Example: on the date the round is scheduled to start the servers will be offline for maintenance, or the coders encounter unexpected problems meaning that beta etc starts a week later than intended.

[robban1]

well why on earth is the team so large?

Appocomaster - coding
Myk - coding
Kloopy - coding
JJ - forums
Mushroom - #planetarion
Marv - customer support
Timeline - customer support
Cin - mulithunters
Kal - organisation, marketing, strategy, communications (or just call it operations)
Chef - organisation, marketing, strategy, communications (or just call it operations)


3 coders 2 support goons 2 operation? guys forum, pa channel,

you know Kal you cant have all your m8s with you in the inner circle just for fun.

/me misses spinner and crew

[A2]

Originally Posted by robban1

well why on earth is the team so large?
Mushroom - #planetarion

That would be better phrased as "official channels", setting up and appointing staff for any official channel that PA has. (eg. #planetarion, #speedgame, etc etc -- #support also technically falls into this category, but all the day to day running is delegated to the Support manager [Marv])

I currently don't have the motivation (there's a bottle of wine in front of me causing distraction) to go through each person listed and say what they all actually do.

[Ramihyn]

Originally Posted by robban1

well why on earth is the team so large?

Appocomaster - coding
Myk - coding
Kloopy - coding
JJ - forums
Mushroom - #planetarion
Marv - customer support
Timeline - customer support
Cin - mulithunters
Kal - organisation, marketing, strategy, communications (or just call it operations)
Chef - organisation, marketing, strategy, communications (or just call it operations)

3 coders 2 support goons 2 operation? guys forum, pa channel,

/me misses spinner and crew

That crew isnt too large if you consider that planetarion is a game running 24/7 and contrary to spinner and crew, AFAIK currently nobody works fulltime on PA.

I do hope the number of coders will work out to get some work done on PA now I still think the development model is wrong but as usual we will see how things develop in 2 to 3 months.

[robban1]

Originally Posted by Ramihyn

That crew isnt too large if you consider that planetarion is a game running 24/7 and contrary to spinner and crew, AFAIK currently nobody works fulltime on PA.

I do hope the number of coders will work out to get some work done on PA now I still think the development model is wrong but as usual we will see how things develop in 2 to 3 months.

well the team is supposed to be the heads of the game f.ex 1 head coder in team and the rest outside.

forums, irc dudes and support and perhaps mh should all stand outside the team and take directions from the heads and acts from that.

as it is now its too many ppl who have to say stuff to make it run smoothly.

[Phil M]

It's the same old people running Planetarion, or trying to.

The problem is they're not really accountable to anyone. Nobody seems to get removed from PA team if they don't actually do their job. We've had many rounds of broken promises from mostly the same people, however they either manage to keep their current position or just stay around running some other "department".

The current PA team has too many chiefs and not enough Indians!

I'd guess that the next failure will be the Planetarion portal, the people who are running that will end up doing different things even if they can't organise the thing they're actually supposed to do in the first place.

[Benneh]

Can i be the department of trolling marv, seeing as you seem to of made yourself lots of titles i would like one!

[xontas]

Originally Posted by Kal

I agree, which is why I suggested removing ranks.

Erm, wasnt this the argument that got me fired......