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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 20:22   #1
Appocomaster
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New Combat (Related) Features

This round sees the reintroduction of two main things:

EMP Resistance and Xan 'old school' Cloaking.


Xan Cloaking

In rounds 10-18, Xan cloaking made their ships immune to the fleet scan. They were visable everywhere else.

This is no longer the case. Cloaked ships now appear as "0 ships":
- On galaxy status (incoming or outgoing)
- On your "x incoming hostiles" readout at the top of each page
- On incoming fleets on your overview

They do not appear at all:
- On unit scans
- On fleet scans

They DO appear on military scans, and they do appear on YOUR fleets status on the overview page (it makes it easier for you sometimes). This is the list where the 4 fleets (your base fleet and 3 normal fleets) are listed, along with any targets, missions and so on.

ASTROPODS AND STRUCTURE KILLERS ARE NOT CLOAKED. THEY CAN BE SEEN.

Military scan

This is very much related to Xan's cloaked technology - it's the only way to see their cloaked ships.

The military scan is the last (7th) technology on the Technology tree. It's a 96 tick research.

It outputs all fleets (base fleet, fleet 1, fleet 2, fleet 3).
An example of one is here.

It does NOT show fleet names, location, mission, ETA, and so forth. It purely shows the ships in each fleet.
It always shows every ship in the game and how many are in each fleet.

NOTE

There used to be a lesser-known bug that you could tell which fleet (1,2,3) had which name due to the order they appeared on news scans.

THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE : they now appear in a random order.


EMP Resistance
EMP damage is now dealt very differently.

Every ship that does EMP damage has one or more guns (every other ship just has one gun). These EMP ships fire their gun(s) at their respective target classes. Each shot then has a chance of being "resisted", depending on the EMP resistance of the target ship. A ship with 60% EMP resistance has a 60% chance of deflecting 1 EMP [ElectroMagnetic Pulse] at it. It has a 36% chance (60%*60%) of resisting 2 EMPs from Cathaar ships.

Damage between different ships of the same class is dealt with the same as normal and steal damage.
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Last edited by Appocomaster; 28 Sep 2006 at 20:39.
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 20:54   #2
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
It does NOT show fleet names, location, mission, ETA, and so forth. It purely shows the ships in each fleet.
It always shows every ship in the game and how many are in each fleet.

Why that is shit and going to be VERY annoying, and i'm told its very easy to make better

[20:50:37] <Phil^> amending the sql where statement to include the equ of " AND shipcount > 0 "
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 21:00   #3
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

also ,
<Phil^> even if they retrieve it an entirely different way, then loop through the recordset to display them theres no excuse not to shove an if statement in there to weed out those which have 0 ships in all slots
<Phil^> if they want an additional reason that jolt will like, then it will save on bandwidth for each scan page since its not transmitting useless information
<Phil^> as if " it would make it better " isnt enough
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 21:41   #4
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

I could change it but traditionally it's always been like that, and that's how everyone's been making the parser for it
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 21:43   #5
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

if people are coding their parsers to work out the ship by the position it appears in rather then the name written beside it, they should have their keyboards taken away from them
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 21:44   #6
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

And on another coding issue: How do you code randomness (see the NOTE on fleet launches) into retrieving results from mysql?
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 21:49   #7
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

throwing "ORDER BY RAND()" into the sql should do it imo
Ofc with all computer random numbers created entirely from an algorithm its not true randomness but pseudorandom numbers which should be good enough
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 22:10   #8
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
throwing "ORDER BY RAND()" into the sql should do it imo
Ofc with all computer random numbers created entirely from an algorithm its not true randomness but pseudorandom numbers which should be good enough
Poor, poor database engine being abused that way.
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 22:35   #9
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I could change it but traditionally it's always been like that, and that's how everyone's been making the parser for it
actually, as far as i remember military scans only showed ships the ships the target could make or had stolen and not the whole shiplist present in the game.

As for parsers being created for it, like Phil said, anyone who makes a format that strict should have their keyboards taken away from them. I actually had to write extra code to work out all the ships with 0 units and remove them from the result of the parse

[edit]
Forgot to say that i love the fact EMP resistance is back, it will make it alot easier to balance cathaar out! And Xan cloaking + military scans (apart from the layour :P) look nice aswell, well done imo!
[/edit]
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 22:53   #10
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

There was never all ships shown in the military scans.

Only the ships the planet could produse + stolen.
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Unread 28 Sep 2006, 23:11   #11
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

I think Chef's comic strip about me tinkering is about due now then. I'll try and get that sorted :-)
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Unread 29 Sep 2006, 01:17   #12
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
This is no longer the case. Cloaked ships now appear as "0 ships":
- On your "x incoming hostiles" readout at the top of each page
To clarify that, if you have a single Xan attacker, who for reasons best known to themselves has not sent any Structure killers or Astropods will you get a readout at the top of 0 incoming hostiles?
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Unread 29 Sep 2006, 01:52   #13
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
EMP Resistance
Every ship that does EMP damage has one or more guns (every other ship just has one gun). These EMP ships fire their gun(s) at their respective target classes. Each shot then has a chance of being "resisted", depending on the EMP resistance of the target ship. A ship with 60% EMP resistance has a 60% chance of deflecting 1 EMP [ElectroMagnetic Pulse] at it. It has a 36% chance (60%*60%) of resisting 2 EMPs from Cathaar ships.

Damage between different ships of the same class is dealt with the same as normal and steal damage.
Tbh, why did you do it like this? This 'old school' type of EMP resistance had problems. Do you remember the R3 Dagger of 99% EMP resistance, and the Spider (the primary anti-pod ship)? Due to the dynamic nature of targeting, the number of Daggers that were fired on increased as the more pods got stunned, except the number of daggers stunned was still effectively bugger all. It effectively made spiders useless in the presence of Daggers (which was the point of Daggers, really), and you'd have to rely on the random firing from Ghosts to do some proper damage to pods. Whilst i admit that this was an extreme case, it did happen to some degree throughout all the other ships.

I have an alternative (which is how i thought you were going to do it anyway, else i would have voiced this earlier ). Have a Conventional Armour column (what Armour is now), which is used to compute losses due to killing and stealing. Then have an EMP Armour (you can call it resistance) column, which is used to calculate EMP just as it is now; eg the damage of EMP ships compared to EMP armour of target ships. That way, you could use the same calculation, same formulas, same explanation to new players, and it would just be warm and fluffy all round.

Please.



Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
To clarify that, if you have a single Xan attacker, who for reasons best known to themselves has not sent any Structure killers or Astropods will you get a readout at the top of 0 incoming hostiles?
Yes, indeed this is the case. It kinda makes escort fleets obvious, doesnt it?
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Unread 29 Sep 2006, 08:06   #14
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
if people are coding their parsers to work out the ship by the position it appears in rather then the name written beside it, they should have their keyboards taken away from them
Pfew, i can keep my keyboard :P
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Unread 29 Sep 2006, 08:14   #15
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

xan being cloaked properly is overdue glad to see it back but it will be a dc nightmare most likely,
emp changes dont really bother me as there are changes made every rd to the stats and by and large we all adapt to them anyways
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Unread 29 Sep 2006, 08:34   #16
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Tbh, why did you do it like this? This 'old school' type of EMP resistance had problems.
You are forgetting though that those are stat "mistakes", not EMP resistance problems. In the old rounds it worked different due to the 2nd/3rd targettings allowing ppl to send in other classes (smaller -> cheaper -> more ships than podclass itself) as flak to draw away fire from the ships you wanted to do the damage. Since current ships can only hit one target class this is already highly unlikely, as all involved target ships have the same class and would be in the same price range, thus avoiding the large flak fleets (as they serve no purpose in that sense). And i assume there won't be any ships made with 99% resistance as that pretty much renders the EMP useless with the single targetting system.

As for what ur suggesting, i agree its easier to understand and work out, but personally like the guns and %-resistance chance more (omg! "surprises" in battles \o/).
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Unread 29 Sep 2006, 09:53   #17
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
You are forgetting though that those are stat "mistakes", not EMP resistance problems.
I'm not sure that they were mistakes. I thought they were pretty deliberate. There had to be a good reason to go for the Advanced Resources branch (which [illogically] enabled Daggers in the whole R3 tech branch system if you recall), over Ion Cannons which were OK against those common Battleships. Still, i much prefer a system that was 'idiot proof' than a system which will work just as fine as the alternative when its working well, but has the potential to bugger up badly if someone makes the stats and doesnt think about what they are doing. Yes, that will happen, sooner or later (if indeed it hasnt happened already).

Quote:
In the old rounds it worked different due to the 2nd/3rd targettings allowing ppl to send in other classes (smaller -> cheaper -> more ships than podclass itself) as flak to draw away fire from the ships you wanted to do the damage.
You might recall that in R3 at least, Spiders targeted Daggers, Pods, Torpedoes and another ship (i cant recall which, Ints perhaps), which were a combination of both Fighters (like the Daggers) and Corvettes (such as Pods/Torps) - as such they could be considered an EMP Target class, but not as target classes that we know of them today. Anyway, that's just a bit of history for ya .

Quote:
Since current ships can only hit one target class this is already highly unlikely, as all involved target ships have the same class and would be in the same price range, thus avoiding the large flak fleets (as they serve no purpose in that sense).
Ships already have a large disparity between their costs, even in the same class. Compare Terran ships to their Xan equilivents - i think a Harpy costs about as much as a TBT at one stage. As such, Terran ships with high EMP resistance will be able to easily escort Xan ships to the roids through large EMP walls. Most DC's already know from previous rounds how hard it is to stun large Terran battleship fleets, especially with BW, as you have to stun the whole fleet to make it sterile, and even then the enemy wont recall, whereas killing 30% of the fleet will almost always force a recall (even an early recall to do that whole launch/recall thing). Still, i grant you this is more a function of EMP in general, but the concerns i raised are still pertinent with the existing setup.

Quote:
And i assume there won't be any ships made with 99% resistance as that pretty much renders the EMP useless with the single targetting system.
Prolly not. but even 80% would be high enough to do some seriously distorting things to the combat engine, which would be very easy to avoid with just altering the emp system to a damage/armour based system like teh conventional killers (and stealers). It also means you dont have to worry about achieving a balance between the number of guns and power, plus their associated columns and the like. The number of columns (incl WPSP and agility) were much of the reason for the whole simplification thing for R10 ; removal of all that crap was perhaps the only good thing that R10 did (possible exception: engineering).

Quote:
As for what ur suggesting, i agree its easier to understand and work out, but personally like the guns and %-resistance chance more (omg! "surprises" in battles \o/).
I dont like it


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Unread 29 Sep 2006, 11:32   #18
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I'm not sure that they were mistakes. I thought they were pretty deliberate.
Thats why i added the quotes around it .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
You might recall that in R3 at least, Spiders targeted Daggers, Pods, Torpedoes and another ship (i cant recall which, Ints perhaps), which were a combination of both Fighters (like the Daggers) and Corvettes (such as Pods/Torps) - as such they could be considered an EMP Target class, but not as target classes that we know of them today. Anyway, that's just a bit of history for ya .

Ships already have a large disparity between their costs, even in the same class (...)
Exactly what i meant with multiple targetting. Fighters flakking for Corvetters in an EMP battle simply can't happen in the current game. You have to build pod-class flak, which you would make anyway. The cost for each class per race is pretty much the same, yes between races it can differ but the race itself has quite even prices for ships with the same class. I doubt we'll see a Xan building Ter ships, it also isn't very likely a Terran is going to send a non-pod ship class along to attack with a Xan.

As for "working" race teamups (matching classes that make sense) will always happen, this EMP system doesn't change anything about that. Guns are still distributed by ships present (i hope/assume), hence expensive ships like the Terrans (few in numbers) won't draw alot of fire if there is a same value Xan fleet present (cheap -> large numbers, gets most shots fired at them). And big fleets always pose a thread to EMP. Due to the price difference and the 'make sense to waste fleet on' factor this won't be a problem. Exactly the same as it was before this round, apart EMP being better balanced due to ships actual ability to have high armour / low emp res without having to give EMP ships huge damage ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Prolly not. but even 80% would be high enough to do some seriously distorting things to the combat engine, which would be very easy to avoid with just altering the emp system to a damage/armour based system like teh conventional killers (and stealers). It also means you dont have to worry about achieving a balance between the number of guns and power, plus their associated columns and the like. The number of columns (incl WPSP and agility) were much of the reason for the whole simplification thing for R10 ; removal of all that crap was perhaps the only good thing that R10 did (possible exception: engineering).
There really is no (effective) difference between what you are suggesting and what currently is being tested apart from the random % involved in the resistance. I agree your suggestion is easier to understand and fits better in the stat setup we got used to, but game-wise it doesn't really matter whether you have 4 guns firing at a 75% resistance ships or do 4 'emp-damage' to a ship with only 3 'emp-armour' (apart from the 'random' factor in the % setup). You still have the exact some problems with the balancing, but you're changing the numbers involved.
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Unread 29 Sep 2006, 19:23   #19
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Seeing "Pegasus 0 0 0 0" on a milscan done on a Xan is pretty crap. It should either just display those ships that the planet has, like unitscans, or show just the ships a race is capable of having. The latter would make mils of Ziks pretty ugly, but most mils of Ziks are pretty ugly anyways. My two cents.
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Unread 29 Sep 2006, 19:39   #20
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

I still think that the new system does more harm to cath than good. Especially since it renders xp scoring for cath pretty hard.
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 02:39   #21
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Agreed, Cath doesn't look like the race to pick this round, I wonder why there was a need to make it harder for them.
Introducing a 'stealing resistance' would have been more appropriate. This round Ziks will be a nightmare to play against once they've 'stolen' enough Xan ships...
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 03:00   #22
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

i must agree with heartless and makhil, cath this round gonna be pound so badly with emp resistance.. before it would require a huge fleet of cath to simply stop xan fi or terran bs.. now even that many ship may not stop those ship.. worst is that since all race gona have ep resistance to some degree or another.. cathaar will probably be force to hit below their avrage value to have a potential target with success. i feel xan full cloaking will see a huge expention of players (i figure a minimum of 50%), while zik stealing xan ship will be a nightmare to dc anddefend against...
all in all.. who would want to play cathaar with so overwhelmed odd against them..
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 06:31   #23
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

EMP resistance can work both ways. It potentially means that Terrans are easier to stun than in the past when armour was used, but also that Xan might be harder to stun. Further, key ships might be vulnerable - or not - to EMP if you can fiddle with the resistance.

Provided cath remains cost effective, then i dont really see the problem.
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 12:44   #24
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

If the Xan is a nightmare to defend against, its also the other way for attackers and Xan ships defending.
News/JG scans shows "0 Xan ship defending".
Opens up a lot for fake def.
Want to land?
90% recalls when there are enough def.
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 12:59   #25
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-COM
If the Xan is a nightmare to defend against, its also the other way for attackers and Xan ships defending.
News/JG scans shows "0 Xan ship defending".
Opens up a lot for fake def.
Want to land?
90% recalls when there are enough def.
Yeah. Then you military scan him. Oh well, he has his corvettes out with pods in one fleet, and frigates out with pods in another. Now the third fleet has pods too, so they've all got equal amount of pods out. BUT, what is the defending fleet? Perhaps the frigates, or the corvettes? Or the dummy fleet?

The winner of the year award goes to... It takes some planning and work to make fakes that work when military analysis shows all. Just zero on screen and unit scan showing units, but military scan not existing at all would cut it better. Then you'd just have a figure of zero xan def ships, and an unit scan. For all you care, it could be one pulsar, or fifty thousand arrowheads. I'd say, at that point, landing gets a lot dodgier.
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 13:00   #26
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-COM
If the Xan is a nightmare to defend against, its also the other way for attackers and Xan ships defending.
News/JG scans shows "0 Xan ship defending".
Opens up a lot for fake def.
Want to land?
90% recalls when there are enough def.
I think some people tend to forget this

This is why Xan have the lowest total of a/c and d/c, and Terran's damage is quite high.

I'd be surprised if we didn't have quite a few Terrans, tbh, but the fact that Cathaar ignore Terran's armour and are actually more effective than previous rounds (they used to be able to EMP about 120% of their cost (ish) last round, now it's 140%) does make a difference to help keep Terran in check.

Xan's strength is the fact you have no idea where their ships are. Zik are really quite a hard race to play this round, but with the races being if anything more different, they're potentially going to do well.
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 13:02   #27
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Just zero on screen and unit scan showing units, but military scan not existing at all would cut it better. Then you'd just have a figure of zero xan def ships, and an unit scan. For all you care, it could be one pulsar, or fifty thousand arrowheads. I'd say, at that point, landing gets a lot dodgier.
Yes, but then we'd have 80% of the universe Xan! It'd be almost impossible to cope. They'd have to have serious holes in their fleet to stand a chance of beating them. Intel gathering would be even more essential to survive, and news scans.
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 15:38   #28
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Until we've played the beta (at least) then it'll be hard to say how the game will pan out. Especiallly since the stats haven't even been finalised
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 15:46   #29
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Stuff not about EMP
Oh why, tell me why, not make EMP simple?!
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 16:39   #30
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
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Until we've played the beta (at least) then it'll be hard to say how the game will pan out. Especiallly since the stats haven't even been finalised
The beta as you name it is a speedgame, and those tend to become (instead of beta testing) contest of who can sleep least and spend most time on computer and shout this and that goes this and that because I tested this and that in speedgames (I'd find you a link to the thread where Saphi says speedgames are good for predicting alliances' forms during the endurance rounds - hell, I wasn't even aware Omen played speedround until they smacked me in the face with it).
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Unread 30 Sep 2006, 17:31   #31
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

They're good for running a lot of combats, which allows for tweaking of things in the short-term...however, fleet compositions--where 'stats' need to be looked at in a more broad aspect--simply cannot be properly adjusted in a week-long, fast-tick environment.

"Proper" beta testing should realistically take at least a month, have slow ticks, and be run by 'cunning' players who will put the game through it's paces--finding loopholes and truly testing fleet compositions.

(In my opinion, anyway)
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Unread 1 Oct 2006, 17:12   #32
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

can someone explain to me how emp work.. as far as i see most ship got 70%+ emp resistance.. and since emp do no damage.. how can you figure out who many ships gonna be frozen?
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Unread 1 Oct 2006, 17:17   #33
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Possibly the best way of thinking of it is that every 1 EMP gun stuns (100-EMP resistance)% of a ship.

As an example, the Thief has an EMP reistance of 90.

So 10% (0.1) Thieves get stunned (on average) every time they're shot at by an EMP gun.

A Viper has 3 EMP guns, so 1 viper stuns 3*0.1 = 0.3 Thieves.

You'd need 4 Vipers to have a "fair" chance of stunning 1 Thief.

These are all estimates, and combat will involve a slightly random element.
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Unread 1 Oct 2006, 18:06   #34
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

these stats are ****ing awful i hope you know that
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Unread 1 Oct 2006, 18:10   #35
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Attack of the Green-Eyed Jerome!
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Unread 1 Oct 2006, 18:15   #36
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

what the hell am i jealous of?

i'm pissed off that these stats are so awful and yet i wasted a credit (not that i've ever paid for a credit :/)


edit: why is there a random bit implemented into the emp.. surely it would've been wiser to do that for stealing
edit2: or NOT AT ALL!
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Unread 1 Oct 2006, 19:07   #37
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

appoco.. i hope the black widow will be made stronger , as it would be alnmost useless vs the battleship they are suppose to stop.. (cause most bs have 90+ emp resistance)...
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 00:41   #38
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

with regards to EMP, I can see this 2 ways, which (if either) would be correct?

Code:
Non-Random Method:
Ships EMP'ed = Number of Ships * ( 1 - ( ( EMP Resistance / 100 ) ^ guns )
This method would mean that combat involving EMP will always have exact results.

10 ships with 1 gun each could EMP 4 ships with 60 EMP resistance, however 10 ships with 2 guns each could EMP 7.4 ships with 60 EMP resistance.

Would this be always rounded down to represent that the ship was not successfully frozen or always rounded up to represent that the ship is not fully operational? Or would half or more of the ship being frozen stop it and less than half be unsucessful?

Code:
Random method:
For Each Ship
X = 1 - ( ( EMP Resistance / 100 ) ^ guns )
Y = Rand
If (X > Y) { EMP'ed; Not EMP'ed }
This method would mean that combat involving EMP will have unpredictable results.

10 ships with 1 gun each could EMP between 0 and 10 ships with 60 EMP resistance, 10 ships with 2 guns each could EMP between 0 and 20 ships with 60 EMP resistance. The average number for this should work out at 4 and 7.4 respectively.

-----

Could this pelase be clarified as I am unsure which is intended to be used and I'm sure other people are!

Althougth in some situations with either of these formulas the stats don't fit so both may be wrong!
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 02:01   #39
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Whilst i'm not exactly sure of the combat formula, Dr Zaius, i do know that all values are rounded down in PA - thus, the not-completely-stunned ship will be operational, and thus unstunned.
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 03:29   #40
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Whatever the "old method" of calculating EMP 'damage' was done, I feel would be correct (I believe the first option is closest...but my memory is shot to hell)
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 09:35   #41
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Appocomaster explained the formula last night, basically you work with the first formula dr. Zaius mentioned:

Code:
Ships EMP'ed = Number of Ships * ( 1 - ( ( EMP Resistance / 100 ) ^ guns )
That gives you the amount of ships that you will definitely stun.

However, now comes randomness into play, and only appoco can explain how that random part looks like. That random part, however, only decides an additional amount of ships to be emp'ed.
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 11:41   #42
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Why can the value only go up? Surely there is a (albeit very tiny) chance of every EMP missing?

Don't get me wrong... I can't remember the formula so I'm talking from a logical sense, you may be right... But can't the number of ships EMPed be lower than that value?
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 12:03   #43
Heartless
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloopy
Why can the value only go up? Surely there is a (albeit very tiny) chance of every EMP missing?

Don't get me wrong... I can't remember the formula so I'm talking from a logical sense, you may be right... But can't the number of ships EMPed be lower than that value?
Not from the algorithm Appoco explained to me. Maybe I should add that I do not necessarily agree with his implementation and think that it's not really in favour of cathaar (which are flawed in their races design anyway, as pointed out several times before).
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 13:11   #44
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

bring back the inability to build distorters untill news scan is researched. any xan with half a brain will whore distorters from the off leaving other races with no possible oppertunity to play effectively versus xan as they are basically blind

its like pitting Accrington Stanley versus Real Madrid
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 13:58   #45
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

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Originally Posted by Mek
...any xan with half a brain will whore distorters from the off...
I think every Xan with the other half brain (the one working) won't bother spending any resource on distorters, why should they ? Unit scans won't show cloaked ships, late military scans won't show which fleet is which (so easy to put the same number of pods in each fleet slot).
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 16:33   #46
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

why don't the pa team realise that cath just do not work with this free stealing shit from r13 onwards and yet they do this for emp rather than stealing, is it not killing anyone else to witness such idiocy :/
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Unread 2 Oct 2006, 16:45   #47
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Judging by current race distribution on the universe page, I'd say the cathaar problem is currently solving itself.
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 19:17   #48
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

I wanted to better understand how the EMP resistance was random after you posted the examples. So, I pitted Harpy -vs- Beetle.

The Harpy has 90% resistance or a Resistance Factor of .9.
The Beetle has 6 guns with a Stunning Factor .6; .1 per gun
(100%-90% =10%) or (1.0-.9 =.1) which is 6*.1 =.6

Harpy
1 Harpy against 6 guns has a Resistance of 53.14%. (.9*.9*.9*.9*.9*.9) or (.9^6)
and inevitably 2 Harpies have a Resistance of 28.24% (.9^(6*2))

Beetle
One Beetle has a stun factor of .6
and two Beetles have a stun factor of 1.2 (.6*2)


From this a few questions were raised.

(1) In battle are the ships EMP Resistance added together as a total or does each ship retain its own resistance?

I would also like to add there is no relationship between Guns and EMP Resistance, it exceeds 100% combined, and thats where the randomness comes into play, which is overcomplicating the system, because those two items need a relationship that doesn't exist.
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 19:32   #49
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazypyro
I wanted to better understand how the EMP resistance was random after you posted the examples. So, I pitted Harpy -vs- Beetle.

The Harpy has 90% resistance or a Resistance Factor of .9.
The Beetle has 6 guns with a Stunning Factor .6; .1 per gun
(100%-90% =10%) or (1.0-.9 =.1) which is 6*.1 =.6
correct

Quote:
Harpy
1 Harpy against 6 guns has a Resistance of 53.14%. (.9*.9*.9*.9*.9*.9) or (.9^6)
and inevitably 2 Harpies have a Resistance of 28.24% (.9^(6*2))
Yes, but you're looking at the chance of ALL shots not landing. Why make it that confusing?

Quote:
Beetle
One Beetle has a stun factor of .6
and two Beetles have a stun factor of 1.2 (.6*2)
One Beetle stuns 0.6 Harpies, yes.
Two Beetles stun 1.2 Harpies, and so on.
(on average)

Quote:
From this a few questions were raised.

(1) In battle are the ships EMP Resistance added together as a total or does each ship retain its own resistance?

I would also like to add there is no relationship between Guns and EMP Resistance, it exceeds 100% combined, and thats where the randomness comes into play, which is overcomplicating the system, because those two items need a relationship that doesn't exist.
I wish I'd just made it predictable now.

Guns and EMP resistance aren't connected on their own, but why do they need to be?

I just changed the number of guns on Cathaar ships to be able to change the EMP Resistances to something acceptable. The EMP resistances on their own mean very little - you need to take into account the cost of both ships and the relevant guns / EMP resistance.

The simpliest way of thinking about it is that, for EMP ship X targetting ship Y, EMP ship X freezes:

guns of EMP ship X * (100 - EMP resistance of ship Y)/100 of ship Y.

So, a Roach (4 guns) targetting a Drake (91% EMP resistance) gives:

4*(100-91)/100 = 4*.09 = 0.36 Drakes

Note that a Roach costs 10k resources and a Drake costs 40k resources, so 4 Roaches freeze 1.48 Drakes (almost 60k resources). That's almost 50% again on the cost of the EMP ship.
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 21:23   #50
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Re: New Combat (Related) Features

Thank you for the quick response appoco. I feel I understand it better now. I personally like this idea of Guns and Resistance, I think it could've been better implemented, but I also see that when we start having thousands of Cath ships the randomness won't be very random. Thanks again
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