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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 22:46   #1
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Proud to be an American

A recent Gallup Poll shows that most Americans are complete ignorant idiots. Yaeah!*











*I'm depressed and I excuse me while I feel like shit for the next few hours.
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:04   #2
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Re: Proud to be an American

That's because BushLand pulls the average down. Though natural forces are (ironically) at work to change that.
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:11   #3
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Re: Proud to be an American

It's more than BushLand though, Appocomaster.
Even 26% of the people who have a postgrad, belives that evolution is Definitely/
Probably false. The same goes for 18% of those who never attends church.

Also:
"Postgraduates are about evenly divided as to whether creationism is true or false, while the other educational groups all show significant majorities who believe creationism is true."
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:15   #4
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Re: Proud to be an American

Survey Methods

Results are based on telephone interviews with 1,004 national adults, aged 18 and older, conducted Aug. 5-7, 2005. For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the margin of sampling error is ±3 percentage points.


How the buggery do they think they can poll 1004 people, and expect it to hold true with the rest of the states?
Theres a heck of a lot more people there, then a few thousand
plus - the states in which the people were may have contributed to the ideas people have, southern ones tend to be more god-faring etc.
either way, i dont think that 3% is a big enough margin of error, and that the sample size was too small.


s|k , dont feel too bad - the way this survey was carried out is fundamentally flawed when they want to apply the results to the US as a whole

Personally, i think anyone who takes ID seriously deserves to be ignored for the rest of their lives
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:21   #5
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Re: Proud to be an American

Dear Phil.

You dont necearly need more than 1004 people to do a survey. It's mainly how you do it, witch generates the quality of it (the people you pick out etc). Also the margin is calculated by using math on methods involved.
1004 people is enough to get that error margin, even if its a large country such as the US (if done properly).

(Im studying this sh** at the moment so )
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:24   #6
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Re: Proud to be an American

Yes, I admit America seems to have a creationalism bug that's taking over. People are lobbying to have it taught at schools etc. I think it's too far out of our understanding. I think it's a bit of a cop out just saying "well, God did it all." Trying to work out how / what created the universe is obviously not easy, but if people say that God was that force, then they're just saying that there's something that's eternal that sparked the creation of the universe (which is fair enough, as otherwise you're stuck with an infinite regress) and they've called it God. Fair enough, but how does that carry on that this God created us and worked out how we'd all work and led us on a path of spiritual enlightenment without really giving us any knowledge that he exists. So, he started the big bang, and evolution happened anyway. Why put God as anything more than the big button pusher?
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:30   #7
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Dear Phil.

You dont necearly need more than 1004 people to do a survey. It's mainly how you do it, witch generates the quality of it (the people you pick out etc). Also the margin is calculated by using math on methods involved.
1004 people is enough to get that error margin, even if its a large country such as the US (if done properly).

(Im studying this sh** at the moment so )
Ive also done a statistics class myself, at csys level.
1004 is just too small a sample size, regardless of who you ask to get a balanced view (imo)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
People are lobbying to have it taught at schools etc
Its worse then that - They're lobbying to get it taught in science classes :/
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:31   #8
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Re: Proud to be an American

yes they'll probably claim to have done a survey on some cross section of american society which is carefully selected to be representative. Whereas they just phone up 20 people in each state and ask them questions
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:33   #9
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Its worse then that - They're lobbying to get it taught in science classes :/
what about teaching it in English Literature - "modern fiction"
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:41   #10
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Ive also done a statistics class myself, at csys level.
1004 is just too small a sample size, regardless of who you ask to get a balanced view (imo)
Im not sure what numbers they usually use when doing this in the US, but over here (Norway) there is seldom used more than 1000 people (for instance when asking what party you will vote for).
And beeing a country with one of the best educated populations (something like 5th in the world), Im quite sure our statisticans is up to it.
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:42   #11
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Re: Proud to be an American

America is slightly bigger than Norway, population wise.
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:43   #12
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Ive also done a statistics class myself, at csys level.
1004 is just too small a sample size, regardless of who you ask to get a balanced view (imo)

Its worse then that - They're lobbying to get it taught in science classes :/
I support it. The more they learn about creationism/ID, the less time they have for maths, phyics and chemistry. In the end you won't have americans who are capable of building rockets, bombs, planes and tanks. Peace at last!
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:45   #13
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
I support it. The more they learn about creationism/ID, the less time they have for maths, phyics and chemistry. In the end you won't have americans who are capable of building rockets, bombs, planes and tanks. Peace at last!
Yes, but they could learn about something slightly more worthwhile. Like health and fitness.
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:45   #14
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Re: Proud to be an American

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
I support it. The more they learn about creationism/ID, the less time they have for maths, phyics and chemistry. In the end you won't have americans who are capable of building rockets, bombs, planes and tanks. Peace at last!
You know... theres a certain method in your madness
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:46   #15
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Yes, but they could learn about something slightly more worthwhile. Like health and fitness.
I like they're soldiers to be fat and unable to do any kind of physical labour, not to mention run for more than 5 meters.
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:49   #16
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Re: Proud to be an American

Who's going to protect us from Russia and China? Maybe we can follow the French and surrender before we get hurt?
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:49   #17
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Re: Proud to be an American

ID isn't as crazy as creationism though...

In the UK I find it worrrying that our schools minister believes that the bible is literally true...
That must affect things somewhere...
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:51   #18
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Who's going to protect us from Russia and China? Maybe we can follow the French and surrender before we get hurt?
Britain got ICBM's and subs, so I dont see the problem.
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:53   #19
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Re: Proud to be an American

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Britain got ICBM's and subs, so I dont see the problem.
they use american tech though , the trident missiles iirc.
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:54   #20
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
ID isn't as crazy as creationism though...

In the UK I find it worrrying that our schools minister believes that the bible is literally true...
That must affect things somewhere...
Since you brits went down the road with Dubaya aka Satan himself, Im all for such stuff in UK schools too. I would suggest that you not only remove math, physics and chemistry, but also healthy food (that naked chef must die!). In with burgers and coca-cola!
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:54   #21
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Re: Proud to be an American

I wouldn't be adverse to it being taught (actually I would as it's a horrible waste of time) if they explained the actual differences between the supporting evidence of the various theories. Hooray for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism and such!
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Unread 23 Sep 2005, 23:59   #22
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I wouldn't be adverse to it being taught (actually I would as it's a horrible waste of time) if they explained the actual differences between the supporting evidence of the various theories. Hooray for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism and such!
Yes I was trying to remember the cool counter example to creationalism.

Quote:
Since you brits went down the road with Dubaya aka Satan himself, Im all for such stuff in UK schools too. I would suggest that you not only remove math, physics and chemistry, but also healthy food (that naked chef must die!). In with burgers and coca-cola!
I said in another thread we've disowned Blair, he spends too much time poncing around everywhere else to pay attention to us anyway. And we have enough problems convincing people to do maths and science anyway
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Unread 24 Sep 2005, 00:08   #23
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Re: Proud to be an American

I followed your link JBG, and went from there to a newsie in Kansas.. There's quite a lot of fun stuff there, contributed from the readers, among this:
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/au...state_regional
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Unread 24 Sep 2005, 00:13   #24
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Re: Proud to be an American

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Originally Posted by Phil^
they use american tech though , the trident missiles iirc.
I believe the trident missiles are built at aldermaston, not sure if the technology originates from there though.
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Unread 24 Sep 2005, 00:21   #25
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Re: Proud to be an American

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Originally Posted by ceres
I believe the trident missiles are built at aldermaston, not sure if the technology originates from there though.
Britain's nuclear weapons are assembled at Aldermaston, since under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (or something like that) it's not permitted to share the nuclear technology between nations. Whereas the missiles Britain uses are American, the nuclear part is British. Having said that I'm sure someone could probably knock up a missile or 2 given a bit of time and funding.

Besides which (and going back to the sample size, and methods of polling), you can prove anything with statistics...
The questions that are asked in these things are normally asked to get a certain response. I refer anyone who's seen it to the episode of "Yes Minister" where Bernard (the civil servant) asks Hacker the same question, but in 2 different ways and gets 2 contradictory responses.
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Unread 24 Sep 2005, 01:00   #26
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Exclamation Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Ive also done a statistics class myself, at csys level.
1004 is just too small a sample size, regardless of who you ask to get a balanced view (imo)
Gallup obviously disagrees with you. From their FAQ:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallup
One key question faced by Gallup statisticians: how many interviews does it take to provide an adequate cross-section of Americans? The answer is, not many -- that is, if the respondents to be interviewed are selected entirely at random, giving every adult American an equal probability of falling into the sample. The current U.S. adult population in the continental United States is 187 million. The typical sample size for a Gallup poll, which is designed to represent this general population, is 1,000 national adults.
Beyond that, the ordering and wording of questions probably has more influence than sample size.
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Unread 24 Sep 2005, 01:06   #27
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Re: Proud to be an American

You see Phil
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Unread 24 Sep 2005, 01:25   #28
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Ive also done a statistics class myself, at csys level.
1004 is just too small a sample size, regardless of who you ask to get a balanced view (imo)

Its worse then that - They're lobbying to get it taught in science classes :/
No offense Phil^, but that's basic statistics. Small random sample sizes are more accurate than trying to call everyone. In fact, small random sample sizes are more accurate in many different contexts. It's a well understood method that is incredibly precise and accurate. I suggest you take a intro statistics course during your schooling, a basic understanding of it is a must have in contemporary society.
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Unread 24 Sep 2005, 08:30   #29
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Re: Proud to be an American

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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
It's more than BushLand though, Appocomaster.
Even 26% of the people who have a postgrad, belives that evolution is Definitely/
Probably false.
Post-Graduate education is a really wide field so they'd need to define this a bit more. I'm about to enroll on a vocational housing management course which has zero academic content but it's still classified as "post-graduate education". There's probably people out there with diplomas in theology from the "Kansas Correspondence College of Creationism" who class themselves as post-grads.

Besides, it's a mistake to think that people with degrees aren't as ignorant as everyone else. Especially outside their areas of expertise (but probably inside them too).

edit : Also, it'd be interesting to hear how many of the people who supported evolution completely misunderstand the process or hold common misonceptions.

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Unread 24 Sep 2005, 16:08   #30
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Re: Proud to be an American

in addition to what dante points out, some of the doctoral types may be saying evolution is 'probably wrong' in the same way that a physicist might say that newton was 'wrong.'

but then, 48% of the postgrads said probably/definitely right for creationism, so i don't really know.
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Unread 24 Sep 2005, 19:44   #31
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Re: Proud to be an American

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Originally Posted by s|k
I suggest you take a intro statistics course during your schooling

thats the last time i try to make you feel better about yourself being an american in light of such polls then

ps - if it gets worse ( as it looks like it might ) in the states ideologically, have you considered moving to canada or somewhere more liberal to escape the nonsense?
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Unread 24 Sep 2005, 19:52   #32
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Re: Proud to be an American

On a kind of related topic has anybody read the Republican War on Science by Chris Mooney?

Is it any good?
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Unread 25 Sep 2005, 00:50   #33
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
So, he started the big bang, and evolution happened anyway. Why put God as anything more than the big button pusher?


because christianity (and all the other monotheist religions) need the living acting god. If gods reduced to the button pusher, he would be inactive. He wouldnt be doing miracles, actively helping you in your life. Reliigion would lose alot of its appeal. It would be much more difficult to exploit people using religion.
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Unread 25 Sep 2005, 05:04   #34
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Re: Proud to be an American

Pretty soon we'll have our own Department of Promotion of Virtues and Suppression of Vice like the Taliban. Gotta love theocracy.
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Unread 25 Sep 2005, 05:07   #35
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddley_Battleship
Pretty soon we'll have our own Department of Promotion of Virtues and Suppression of Vice like the Taliban. Gotta love theocracy.
quoted for (depressing) truth
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 04:38   #36
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Re: Proud to be an American

How does that prove anyone is retarted? O.o I think that it just means that Americans are undecided about the issue, besides that, their isnt a poll for Europeans or Asians ect is their. I think that if you did a simular poll for europe, you'd get a simular result. So stop with your ahah! Im so smart XD routine ...

Dont get me wrong, I personally am an Athiest, and i believe in Evolution. But its impossible to KNOW that evolution is true because you dont know everything about anything. Evolution is probably true, but you cannot say you KNOW that you arnt being directed by someone being that is significantly more evolved than you... even if it is unlikely.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 04:47   #37
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
besides that, their isnt a poll for Europeans
here. ^^
here i'm afraid your argument falls down.

terribly sorry old chap. but bloody good to see that you are still here
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 04:58   #38
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Re: Proud to be an American

Is their a poll for europeans or did I miss it or are we assuming that all europeans beleive in evolution O.o
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 05:04   #39
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Re: Proud to be an American

we

you and me

we are going to accept that there is no such thing as 'europeans'

after that you and i are going to accept that britain france and germany (their might well be other western europeans countries but we will agree that they are too small to bother with) all accept evolution.

that no where in britain, france or germany does anyone even (bravely) suggest that 'creationism' or it's sions are really worth the effort to disprove.

you and me. we can accept these truths.

(although i apologise to you. i do hate the french)
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 05:11   #40
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Re: Proud to be an American

[offtopic]... yeah, it seems that all europeans are intent on keeping themselves seperate from all the other countries, not just on these boards, but others I frequent, and I dont really see the point.

Your moving toward the same economy (and a small minority say a possible united governance), your as a group are the same size as the united states, (in terms of GDP for sure (and i think population as well).

In addition that, you never hear about the German Space Agency, or any other agency ect that takes a lot of resources, its always Europeans this, European that... Now, maybe you personally dont want to be part of a european conglamerate with greece, and all those other less desirable eastern european countries, but your collective governments obviously do...or it appears that way from how its covered here /offtopic

I still would like to see some statistics to back that assumption up, maybe know you talk to believes in creationism...
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 05:21   #41
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Re: Proud to be an American

population size comparable to the US?

no. (much much much bigger)

we seem to want to remain independant?

well you see that is probably because we have done very well on our own so far.

'collective governments'

darling you are jumping at shadows. I can count at leat a half dozen european leaders who can't stand being in the same room as each other. let alone founding a unified superpower. could the european nations do it? yes. would it be bigger in terms of gdp and population than america? yes.

but fret not

for the third question is always the most important.

will it ever happen?

no

not over mine or 340 million other dead bodies.

so fear not my friend. the 'federal' state of america can be laughed at for it's silly resurgence of creationistic beliefs. but 'europe'. even the word is so silly it is stained brown with old blood.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 05:40   #42
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Re: Proud to be an American

Rest easy my European friends. As the anti-Christ, I shall humble them all ere long. Muah ha ha ha ha.

Really, don't be so concerned. 40 years ago the % would have been much higher for creationism. We are getting there, slowly but surely.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 05:47   #43
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Rest easy my European friends. As the anti-Christ, I shall humble them all ere long. Muah ha ha ha ha.

Really, don't be so concerned. 40 years ago the % would have been much higher for creationism. We are getting there, slowly but surely.
yes but you started so much later.

must you really re-create the inquisition? I ask honestly. must you? can't you at least try to accept that our longer history is mostly full of mistakes?

must you replicate them all???

goodness knows no empire has ever had the money or the military that you have. must you really be so backward looking? what will it be? in 20 years an inquisition? in 40 a black death? in 200 a holocaust?

learn the lessons.

you are an all powerful empire. not a teenager rebeling against it's parents.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 05:57   #44
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Re: Proud to be an American

Actually, as I said it isn't that bad. Very few places are actually trying this rubbish. Intelligent design is an end run in those places where the bible belt buckles the tightest. The real problem in American education is in math and other areas. History? The average American teenager is unaware of what happened at Pearl Harbor. Geography, half of the students in California aren't sure whether the Pacific Ocean is west or east of here.

There is much to worry about but creationism is minimal at worst.

(btw, my server is set to irc.netgamers.org. I type /j forums and don't get anywhere. I just came back from trying this.
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 05:59   #45
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Re: Proud to be an American

I do need to get this off my chest.

this silly idea that there is a rift between americans on this board and the rest.

I HATE FRENCH PEOPLE I WOULD BASH THEIR HEADS IN WITH THE NEAREST STONE.

there is this utterly absurd belief that it is 'america or bust' that americans do not live in the real world. the american empire is never threatened. one man. ONE MAN escapes american might.

one man. ossama bin laden. and do you know how he does it??? because he was not born poor.

america's empire controls the first truly global empire. to quote the divine augustus:

"let him run! no matter where he hides he will find a roman or a friend of rome..."

where on the whole planet is there that you can go to escape america?

one man. the son of a billionaire perverts a whole religion to try and oppose you and where does he live? in caves in the middle of ****ing no where. All of earth is laid bare to the american empire. do not be confused. I believe in empire. It is natural.

but for goodness sake enjoy your power. WHO CAN TELL WHAT TOMORROW WILL BRING. china? india? do you imagine that any of us want that?

america will not run it's empire properly until it admits that it has one
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 08:29   #46
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
(btw, my server is set to irc.netgamers.org. I type /j forums and don't get anywhere. I just came back from trying this.
try /join #forums instead
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Unread 26 Sep 2005, 20:40   #47
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Re: Proud to be an American

Americans believe in god, what complete ignorant idiots
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 00:38   #48
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Re: Proud to be an American

I'd agree with that comment. With the qualifier "some" obviously.
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 00:50   #49
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Re: Proud to be an American

Actually it requires use in two places, as in "some american believe in some god, what complete ignorant idiots".
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Unread 27 Sep 2005, 02:35   #50
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Re: Proud to be an American

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitetrash
Americans believe in god, what complete ignorant idiots
Yes, what complete ignorant idiots to disregard the heaps (and growing exponentially everyday) of evidence that the biblical narration of the beginning of life on this planet is silly hogwash. Here's a ****ing rib, make a woman from it. Wait! That's not a human, it's an Australopithecus Africanus, ****. Try again.
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