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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 17:11   #1
Bashar
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A necessary evil?

I've made this thread to discuss a problem that has been seeping into PA for a while. I know that the entire community has made moaning and whinging a pastime since the dawn of PA, but I am going to try to provide a slightly more structured argument than the standard "PA SUCKS NOW!!!111 BRIN BAK ROUND £!".

The point I wish to discuss is galaxies (yes, the old private/random debate). I was one of those people who argued strongly for the current system, and suggested it repeatedly for several rounds before it was introduced, but I feel that, with the small playerbase we now have, the galaxy setup is detrimental as it is. I remember when galaxies were a major part of the game, it was a last refuge if your alliance couldn't help you, it was a source of friendship and entertainment. I spent many a late night sat in galaxy channels just talking with my gal mates, and I made many friends that I still know today. Most people put their alliance first, this has always been the case and always will be as alliances are the most constant part of PA, but people still valued their galaxies highly, and would want their galaxy to do well.

The trouble now is that you can pretty much guarantee that if you are in a big alliance, you will land in a galaxy with someone hostile, or who you can guarantee will be hostile at some point in the round. As a result, big alliance players are on their guard from the instance that their galaxy is created. They are weary of forming ties in case they have to be broken, they are suspiscious of their gal mates loyalty, and are constantly on the guard for their galmates giving information on their activity patterns to hostile alliances and not reporting incomming. This suspiscion is a two way thing, and likely creates problems that weren't there before, a classic case of people being so paranoid about something happening that they actually create it. Now I know there are people on these boards who are going to jump on this and say it is a problem with the big alliances themselves and the way they are, but the way they are is not going to change, it is how people choose to play the game, which is (as much as people may hate it) their perrogative. The result (whatever you believe the root cause to be) is that galaxies now lack cohesion. The comradeship, morale and friendship that used to be there is gone. People sit in galaxy channels because they have more to lose by not sitting in them. They no longer sit in there because they want to. I know this is something that people have been complaining about for ages, and there will always be galaxies like this, but it appears to me to be becoming increasingly widespread.

The problem I feel is that the current galaxy setup is not suited to the player base. The near guarantee that you will end up in a galaxy with hostiles removes the inclination to put effort into a galaxy. The horror stories of galaxies from recent rounds get peoples guard up. The large galaxy size compounds this by forcing alliances to hit their own galaxies due to a lack of other targets, which creates a serious dilema for anybody who has a decent galaxy, and the knowledge this will happen makes people reluctant to form any attatchments. The dreaded and much maligned private galaxies are a better option than buddypacks now. Private galaxies allowed people to play with a decent sized group of friends, and almost guarantee that there would be little in-galaxy conflict. I do of course see the problems with private galaxies, and I don't feel they are an adequate solution to the problem. What I instead feel is a sensible solution is to return to the round 6 galaxy system where you have a half random half private galaxy system. You could have for example 5 private's per galaxy and then fill up with randoms after that, or maybe even only 4 privates and the rest randoms. Ultimately, I feel that the number of galaxies needs to increase and the divisions that are ripping galaxies apart before they have a chance to develop proper friendships need to be avoided. I know that lots of people hate private galaxies, but I think that the current buddypack system is doing more harm to the game. Even a full random round is better than the current situation, as at least that forces people to make friendship ties. With a much larger playerbase, the buddypack system would probably be brilliant as landing in a hostile galaxy would be unlikely, but in an age where most people who go in a buddypack are in an alliance that's challenging for top spot, buddypacks are not sensible. It's an idea that was suggested to fix problems that were developing, but was introduced too late, once those problems had got their grip and the suggestion was no longer relevant.

These are my thoughts on the galaxy setup, and I would be interested to know what other people feel.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 17:16   #2
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Re: A necessary evil?

I totally agree!

And I'm Bashars GC :P
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 17:37   #3
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Re: A necessary evil?

yeh i agree too... Last round i was in a great gal.. (not rankwise) but otherwise, we were enemies, but we were chatting and having fun.. this round, the setup is the same, some have enemies in there, some dont, but we aint talking shit, its like a graveyard.. when we get incomings, there is _MAYBE_ a line of "reported" the incs.. elsewise theres allmost no talking..

I disagree with Bashars system tho.. I would rather like 6 privates and rest random, (10 man gals), cause that makes you feel that you have allmost a 100% priv gal.. even tho its just 60%, and it wont let the randoms out of the "community" ingal, as likely when knowing the other 6, you are obviously more secure, and will include them..

I feel the system today is a waste.. why play theese big gals when there are "no" players?

Just my thoughts
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 17:40   #4
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Re: A necessary evil?

The problem with having larger numbers of privates is that it encourages blocking, as no alliance wants to have 10 gals with all their members in, it's a lot of eggs and not a lot of baskets. Targetting becomes very easy, an alliance could get twatted VERY easily. A compromise is needed between the need to avoid having hostiles in gal and the need to avoid forcing alliances into blocks. 4-5 privates would possibly do this, although I think lots of alliance HC would disagree on this point (they'd want it more in the 3-4 region I think), however I don't think it would be too bad as everyone would be in the same situation.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 17:57   #5
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Re: A necessary evil?

You might want to check out this other thread in Suggestions (esp. last page).
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 18:00   #6
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnd|One
You might want to check out this other thread in Suggestions (esp. last page).
I guess its not a specific suggestion, rather a discussion about the current system, and how it can be improved.. so dunno if its relevant, but ill read it
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 18:45   #7
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Re: A necessary evil?

I agree with Bashar. The current system leaves much to be desired.

We tried to go back to semi-private galaxies in round 12, but for some reason it didnt work. Can't remember why. But it did work in round 6, which I think had the best galaxy system yet seen in PA.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 18:48   #8
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neferti
But it did work in round 6, which I think had the best galaxy system yet seen in PA.
I agree entirely with this.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 19:30   #9
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Re: A necessary evil?

I think one of the main problems with the galaxy setup that also lead to treachery, secrecy and whatnot is the fact that galaxies can have an unlimited number of players. This leads to much more exiling than before (because as more new players sign up, there is another spot in a top galaxy available for someone to move into) which can only harm galaxies. You have new players coming and going so often, that sometimes you don't even know who everyone in your galaxy is.

So thats my view on the current setup. As for my solution, personally I think any setup whereby there is a fixed limit to the number of players in any galaxy is a step in the right direction.

In a smaller galaxy there is less chance of defence (sure, noobs might get roided, but I thought roid-swapping was good for both the game and the noobs since XP is rather invaluable.)

In a fixed-limit setup the top galaxy will be limited to 10 (for arguments sake) 'elite' players, while the bottom galaxy has 10 noobs. Looking at the current round, the top galaxies (can) have nearly twice as many 'elite' players. Fixing the limit would produce: A smaller gap between the top and bottom galaxies, and more 'elite' galaxies than before (19 'elites' from one galaxy into 2 galaxies of 10.) which *should* also lead to more even competition in the middle.

The points that Bashar has already outlined - the closer bonds between galmates, for example - are all fixed(ish) with a fixed limit.

Lastly, as I said earlier, fixed limit galaxies lead to harder defence and therefore easier attacking. What sort of players do we want to develop the new guys into? People who just sit in a nice big galaxy waiting for defence from some random guy? Or people who go out and roid others and organise their ingal defence as a team?

That was a bit of a badly written post so my apologies for that, but I expect you can decrypt it...
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 19:41   #10
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Re: A necessary evil?

I think I agree with Arfy but I'm not entirely sure why, it just feels right to have smaller galaxies with the smaller player base. This would also lead to smaller clusters which might encourage more cluster cooperation, which can't be a bad thing for the newer players.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 19:48   #11
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey
I think I agree with Arfy but I'm not entirely sure why, it just feels right to have smaller galaxies with the smaller player base. This would also lead to smaller clusters which might encourage more cluster cooperation, which can't be a bad thing for the newer players.
Firstly, thanks

Secondly, not only would we see smaller clusters (although I don't know if this is good/bad/different at all) we would see more galaxies and more clusters. Again, this agrees with the original post that less galaxies will be caught in the middle of things. The alliance wars are what have unsettled alot of galaxies this round.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 20:35   #12
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Re: A necessary evil?

I agree, I've been thinking along these lines as well.

I can't see how the rampant paranoia, fake nicking and secret gal chans is doing much good. These are all by-products of the current random system. It's really hard to be friendly with some of your gal mates, or even call them gal mates, when you're at war with them. People have to run to their hc's to ask permission to defend others ingal. Sometimes it's your own alliance hitting your gal mates. So you're right, creating gal unity, which is the key to making new PA buddies and basically having more fun (especially for new players), is extremely hard and most people don't really bother that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
A compromise is needed between the need to avoid having hostiles in gal and the need to avoid forcing alliances into blocks. 4-5 privates would possibly do this, although I think lots of alliance HC would disagree on this point (they'd want it more in the 3-4 region I think), however I don't think it would be too bad as everyone would be in the same situation.
Not sure about the numbers -- it's hard to predict what would happen with the current playerbase and possible political adjustments. You also have to factor in the paid:unpaid and grouped:solo ratios. But with building 10-20 man gals around around 4-10 private, it makes sense that gal unity will be alot stronger. Privates would work togeather to achieve goals, such as proper ingal def and help their randoms and unpaid planets to get addicted/grow/join their group as much as possible. (instead of focusing on very potential treachery from enemies in gal) With this commitment, I think we'd see alot less top players shopping around for the most elite gals possible and alot more people trying to work with what they have. Not to mention having more fun doing so.

With what you propose, the system becomes less luck based and more skill based. Which is good. As it stands, gals with two intial "pro" buddy packs and a bunch of great exiles form active supergals and pull away for the win. Race ratios is very luck based -- you might have to get rid of small players who show potential simply because you want a better race mix. A lucky mixture of diffrent alliances, particularly if HC's are involved helps prevent significant incominng. Gals willing to defend eachother despite being enemies have another incredible advantage..

Personally, I'd lean twords fixed 15 man gals with 4-6 privates for reasons Arfy and others have already described.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 20:44   #13
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Re: A necessary evil?

My solution for Bashars problem:

1) Make alliance memberships visible to everyone.
2) 10 or 12 planets per galaxy, 1 buddypack of 4 people per gal.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 20:51   #14
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Re: A necessary evil?

Including any randoms at all means you have no real chance of avoiding any of the problems listed above. 5 man priv gal or 5 man random gal is the way to go.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 20:51   #15
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Re: A necessary evil?

How about:

1 buddy pack of 4 people per gal
base exile/self exile formulae on number of paid planets not number of planets - this will stop people going into the #1 gal (most likely it will anyway) when they exile
either make exile/self exiel more expensive OR limit exile frequency
no artifical limit on galaxy size BUT I expect this change would bring galaxy size down to 10-12
members of buddy packs cannot self exile OR be exile from a galaxy - it is their galaxy - they should decide who can be in it or not
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 20:54   #16
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Re: A necessary evil?

Has anybody stopped to think what would happen if we had private galaxies?

All the best players would be concentrated in the top galaxies and the quality would deteriorate as we go down the chain. The best players would be in an impregnable fortress and the not so good players would be living in a sea of incoming .

What this game needs is for the quality of players to be spread as equally as possible between all galaxies. The current system that we have between tick 0 and tick 36 promotes this to the best of its ability and does not need improving in the slightest.

The problem we are currently facing with galaxies is the exile system. This is what needs improving.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 20:58   #17
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev
Including any randoms at all means you have no real chance of avoiding any of the problems listed above.
Hardly. With a fixed limit, and therefore more galaxies, you are less likely to land with hostiles. This is what its all about. Fakenicking only lasts so long, the biggest detrimental effect on a galaxy is not being able to work as a team due to conflicting alliances. Sure, you may land with a hostile but this wont matter as much, since alliances will not be forced to attack inside their own galaxies.

On a side note, smaller galaxies help smaller alliances. Currently to make an impact on a galaxy I'd expect ~30 fleets to be sent towards it which small alliances can often find hard to do.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 21:08   #18
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
1 buddy pack of 4 people per gal
This is a nice limit I think, or at least, 40% of the final fixed limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
base exile/self exile formulae on number of paid planets not number of planets - this will stop people going into the #1 gal (most likely it will anyway) when they exile
Also a good idea, however, I think the exile system needs to be looked at in more detail before we can commit to anything such as this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
either make exile/self exiel more expensive OR limit exile frequency
I doubt self-exile will be used as much as we are seeing it this round if your last point is agreed upon. However, should we not employ that idea, I don't think it should be limited or have the cost increased - with a limit in the galaxy sizes we should hopefully see a decrease in the number of exiles anyway, and we would simply be prolonging somebody's bad playing experiences in return for a few less powerhouses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
no artifical limit on galaxy size BUT I expect this change would bring galaxy size down to 10-12
No. I've stated my reasons above but it is still open to discussion (I may be reading what I want to read, but from the general gist of things, people are tending to agree with me).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
members of buddy packs cannot self exile OR be exile from a galaxy - it is their galaxy - they should decide who can be in it or not
This is a very nice idea. However, this is because I can't think of anything wrong with it other than people will be less willing to choose a buddy pack.
EDIT: I no longer agree with this.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 21:10   #19
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Has anybody stopped to think what would happen if we had private galaxies?

All the best players would be concentrated in the top galaxies and the quality would deteriorate as we go down the chain. The best players would be in an impregnable fortress and the not so good players would be living in a sea of incoming .

What this game needs is for the quality of players to be spread as equally as possible between all galaxies. The current system that we have between tick 0 and tick 36 promotes this to the best of its ability and does not need improving in the slightest.

The problem we are currently facing with galaxies is the exile system. This is what needs improving.
Now, I don't know if this is in response to my posts - but I am not asking for private galaxies. So, ignore this reply if it wasn't meant for me.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 21:26   #20
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Has anybody stopped to think what would happen if we had private galaxies?

All the best players would be concentrated in the top galaxies and the quality would deteriorate as we go down the chain. The best players would be in an impregnable fortress and the not so good players would be living in a sea of incoming .

What this game needs is for the quality of players to be spread as equally as possible between all galaxies. The current system that we have between tick 0 and tick 36 promotes this to the best of its ability and does not need improving in the slightest.

The problem we are currently facing with galaxies is the exile system. This is what needs improving.
I don't know what thread you've been reading tbh. People have been talking about a system where privates are mixed with randoms, pretty much as it is now, only the privates will be much more likely to cooperate and get the randoms on base. Tick 0 to 36 can be the same, as it's the shuffle that changes.

Yes, an "impregnable fortress" of 10-12 planets, where only 4 of them are from a buddypack

The exiling thing obviously needs to be looked over, but kal seems to be heading in the right direction. There is less incentive to self-exile to try and find the best gal in this system because of the outlined restrictions. Though I think some way of exiling completely inactive buddy pack members wouldn't be out of line.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 22:07   #21
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitetrash
I don't know what thread you've been reading tbh. People have been talking about a system where privates are mixed with randoms, pretty much as it is now, only the privates will be much more likely to cooperate and get the randoms on base. Tick 0 to 36 can be the same, as it's the shuffle that changes.

Yes, an "impregnable fortress" of 10-12 planets, where only 4 of them are from a buddypack

The exiling thing obviously needs to be looked over, but kal seems to be heading in the right direction. There is less incentive to self-exile to try and find the best gal in this system because of the outlined restrictions. Though I think some way of exiling completely inactive buddy pack members wouldn't be out of line.
After actually reading the thread it seems that you are correct. I was being lazy and not actually reading the words that were in front of my face. As an attempt to make a comeback from this I shall now go on in an attempt to save face and say why the current system does not need changing:

The purpose of buddy packs is to create a core for every galaxy so that they all have a chance to do well. Allowing up to 6 people to be in buddy packs (where the buddy pack members only choose up to 2 other buddy packers) is the perfect number. This way no group of people that choose to play together can completely dominate a galaxy because they can be overwhelmed by the randoms and the other people in the galaxy who also came from a buddy pack.
Making galaxies have only 1 buddy pack with 4 people in it makes the core far less capable of helping the galaxy as a whole. These 4 people, while at least semi organised since they managed to get a buddy pack together, could well be totally incompetent at making the galaxy work well. At least with two buddy packs you have a chance to offset a bad buddy pack by the fact that there is 1 other buddy pack there.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 23:05   #22
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitetrash
Not sure about the numbers -- it's hard to predict what would happen with the current playerbase and possible political adjustments.
The numbers come from a combination of my position, my experience and just random number plucking. The numbers themselves are irrelevant, it is the point behind them that matters.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 23:09   #23
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev
Including any randoms at all means you have no real chance of avoiding any of the problems listed above. 5 man priv gal or 5 man random gal is the way to go.
I'm sorry, but what the hell are you on about? I am not sure I understand your point. The options I see are that you are suggesting including randoms leads to the problems I mentioned, which I strongly disagree with (people choose to go random, and hence have the mentality to be able to get on with people on different sides, if they didn't they wouldn't have gone random). Errrr.... I can't think what other point you could possibly be making. Any chance you could explain? The only option I can see for your argument is completely illogical.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 23:16   #24
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
How about:

1 buddy pack of 4 people per gal
base exile/self exile formulae on number of paid planets not number of planets - this will stop people going into the #1 gal (most likely it will anyway) when they exile
either make exile/self exiel more expensive OR limit exile frequency
no artifical limit on galaxy size BUT I expect this change would bring galaxy size down to 10-12
members of buddy packs cannot self exile OR be exile from a galaxy - it is their galaxy - they should decide who can be in it or not
You are missing the point, and in the process showing the problem within PA-Team (as I see it). You are looking and seeing we are suggesting that a problem exists, and from that thinking along the lines of "how can we block that problem". Blocking problems is not the point, make people exile anywhere you want, it makes fk all difference. What you need to do is stop people wanting to exile. go to the root of the problem. Get galaxy team spirit up and give galaxies a level of cohesion and the things you are suggesting become irrelevant. If you remove the reason for people to exile to start with, then you have no need to come up with ways of balancing through exile. It's a bit like Tony Blairs government, instead of dealing with a problem properly, just throw resources at it. The best bet by far is to make galaxies into what they are meant to be.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 23:23   #25
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Re: A necessary evil?

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Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Has anybody stopped to think what would happen if we had private galaxies?

All the best players would be concentrated in the top galaxies and the quality would deteriorate as we go down the chain. The best players would be in an impregnable fortress and the not so good players would be living in a sea of incoming .

What this game needs is for the quality of players to be spread as equally as possible between all galaxies. The current system that we have between tick 0 and tick 36 promotes this to the best of its ability and does not need improving in the slightest.

The problem we are currently facing with galaxies is the exile system. This is what needs improving.
Yes, I agree, we all eat babies and rape the daughters.

Seriously, look around you, see how things are. Private galaxies would HELP smaller planets. OK, smaller players would have no shot at #1, but do they anyway? Being in a galaxy with a 1up member means you get incomming from big alliances, same if you're in a galaxy with LCH etc. It's how it is. The reason this happens is that alliances target their enemies, but in gal defence screws things up, so you have to hit whole galaxies. This puts smaller players in big galaxies in the firing line. If they were in other galaxies, they would not attract the attention of larger alliances (back in Fury when I was not even an officer, Sid objected to newbie bashing - it is a term used badly, most 'newbies' getting bashed are being bashed by other 'newbies' when they are in a non-big-alliance galaxy).

there has always been a deteriorating quality as you go down the rankings, it's one of those things. This is an appropriate place to say "shit happens". Unless you want to live in a liberal world where everyone is equal no matter of their circumstances, then you are in the wrong game. Full private is better for smaller players than the current system (and notice I am not arguing for full private).
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 23:32   #26
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Re: A necessary evil?

Reading some of the posts here, I am actually close to despairing. People seem to be thinking of this as a coding problem. They are thinking along the lines of "how can we code the exile system to not let these problems show". This is COMPLETELY the wrong approach. It is more a social problem. Force people to stay in the galaxies they exile to and fine, they will stay, they have no choice, but they won't be happy there. The way to approach it is quite simply to make people happy to stay in their galaxies. As soon as you try to force a choice on someone, you are doomed to failure, you have to make it so that a certain choice is more beneficial to them. Make them WANT that choice. You try and make someone do something and they'll resist, I guarantee it. Make it so they want to do something and you'll have no problem.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 23:34   #27
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitetrash
There is less incentive to self-exile to try and find the best gal in this system because of the outlined restrictions.
GAH! Here I go again! Restrictions are NOT the way to remove the incentive to self exile. Remove the things that make people want to self exile ffs.
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 23:39   #28
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Re: A necessary evil?

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Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
The purpose of buddy packs is to create a core for every galaxy so that they all have a chance to do well.
You are missing my point entirely. The point of a galaxy is that it is UNIFIED. One dominant group is a better option than 2 groups vying for power. Conflict does not achieve unity. Which is a better option for an indicidual, having to go with the flow or being embroiled in a civil war where nobody trusts anyone and friendships are absent?
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Unread 21 Aug 2005, 23:51   #29
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Re: A necessary evil?

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Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
However, this is because I can't think of anything wrong with it other than people will be less willing to choose a buddy pack.
I no longer agree with restricting people from exiling, after thinking about it, and discussing it. (As I said).
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 00:02   #30
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I'm sorry, but what the hell are you on about? I am not sure I understand your point. The options I see are that you are suggesting including randoms leads to the problems I mentioned, which I strongly disagree with (people choose to go random, and hence have the mentality to be able to get on with people on different sides, if they didn't they wouldn't have gone random). Errrr.... I can't think what other point you could possibly be making. Any chance you could explain? The only option I can see for your argument is completely illogical.
You're right, my initial post wasn't exactly expressive. My comment was aimed more at the people who seem to think that the current system helps the new or less active players - which it patently doesn't. In fact, with the system as it is currently the slope is steeper than even private galaxies would make it, as all the top galaxies exile anyone looking even slightly inactive.

I'd choose to take away the emphasis on luck of exile and initial sorting on the round - 3, 4 or 5 man private galaxies is what i'd like. This would get rid of the problem of in gal politics etc. It would take away a social aspect of the game that has been getting more and more poisoned as the rounds have gone on, mainly due to the decreasing playerbase. I'm aware of the fact that given the vilification of private galaxies as the root of all that is evil this will never happen, but I don't like seeing mixed gals - it leads to the hiding, the conflict, the suspicion. As a new player, the most fun I had was when I joined my first private galaxy with a guy who invited me over in-game mail.

Sorry for my rather unhelpful initial post.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 00:06   #31
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Re: A necessary evil?

OK, that is better put. I think r6 was a better example though, private galaxies with randoms attatched on the end. It let smaller players get a taste of the big scene, but it didn't restrict them to is. But the sum of your post is that mostly, we agree.

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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 00:07   #32
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neferti
We tried to go back to semi-private galaxies in round 12, but for some reason it didnt work. Can't remember why. But it did work in round 6, which I think had the best galaxy system yet seen in PA.
The reason as remember it from round 12 (it was possibly round 11, since buddypacks were introduced in round 12 I think) is thus:
The playerbase has changed significantly since Round 6, where there were still a fairly large number of new and unaligned players in the game. When it was tried in Round 12 (11?) there weren't sufficient people who were prepared to go random to fill up the galaxies to a decent size. This was then exacarbated by the fact that each galaxy was formed from a private one, yet some people hadn't got themselves sufficiently organised, and were in a private galaxy of 1 or 2, instead of the maximum allowed, which of course lead to them being skewed right from the start. When you add on the fact that the majority of the random planets that were about were either freebies, or multiple accounts created to get into a "good" galaxy, the entire system went to pot.
The current system may not be perfect, but it does have the advantage of each galaxy having a similar number of players in it. I'm not saying that its the best, but there have been some significantly worse ones.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 00:12   #33
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Re: A necessary evil?

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Originally Posted by Bashar
OK, that is better put. I think r6 was a better example though, private galaxies with randoms attatched on the end. It let smaller players get a taste of the big scene, but it didn't restrict them to is. But the sum of your post is that mostly, we agree.

That relys on the playerbase not kicking new or less-than-wonderfully-active players out of their galaxies 10 minutes after they arrive in the hope of getting someone better.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 00:25   #34
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Re: A necessary evil?

remember r6 A2? We were in the same galaxy, it was never even a considered issue. Buddypacks at the moment create conflict within the galaxies, it doesn't matter a bit how many people are in the galaxy, or how good they are, as soon as you have galaxy conflict, the galaxy is useless. There may be other undesirable effects, but as I see it, buddypacks in the current game context are the worst case scenario for galaxies. Galaxy civil wars are the worst thing that you can have in PA.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 00:29   #35
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Re: A necessary evil?

(Oh, and yes, I did survive Noddy's driving, didn't even have any nail biting moments!)
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 00:38   #36
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
remember r6 A2? We were in the same galaxy, it was never even a considered issue. Buddypacks at the moment create conflict within the galaxies, it doesn't matter a bit how many people are in the galaxy, or how good they are, as soon as you have galaxy conflict, the galaxy is useless. There may be other undesirable effects, but as I see it, buddypacks in the current game context are the worst case scenario for galaxies. Galaxy civil wars are the worst thing that you can have in PA.
Worse than ending up with lots of galaxies that hardly have any players in, or which are disadvantaged because some galaxies have a far higher proportion of private planets in?
Buddypacks were created in response to Round 11 (I'm pretty sure that it was R11 now) as a way to avoid the problems created by trying to implement the R6 system again.

(incidentally I do remember Round 6, it was the galaxy where you were GC and appointed Morden as MoW who then proceeded to attack with Fury, rather than create attacks for the galaxy. Since the player numbers continued to go down after that point I think that that was the beginning of the situation we're in now, where in galaxies alliance membership is prized above all else. People playing alliance>galaxy is whats killing it, which I suppose is a good case to be arguing for smaller galaxies overall, ie, not lumping groups of players together. On the other hand the smaller, and more close-knit a galaxy gets, the less chance there is of a new player being welcome, and the greater the paranoia connected with every new arrival)
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 00:58   #37
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Re: A necessary evil?

Sorry A2 but you're wrong about round 11, at least. I remember it all quite clearly. Round 10.5 was full private. Round 11 was the trial for buddypacks. It didnt work out so they went to semi-private for round 12. That didn't work either, so they went back to the round 11 system of buddypacks for round 13 the difference being that galaxy size could theoretically now be infinite.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 01:08   #38
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
Worse than ending up with lots of galaxies that hardly have any players in, or which are disadvantaged because some galaxies have a far higher proportion of private planets in?
Buddypacks were created in response to Round 11 (I'm pretty sure that it was R11 now) as a way to avoid the problems created by trying to implement the R6 system again.

(incidentally I do remember Round 6, it was the galaxy where you were GC and appointed Morden as MoW who then proceeded to attack with Fury, rather than create attacks for the galaxy. Since the player numbers continued to go down after that point I think that that was the beginning of the situation we're in now, where in galaxies alliance membership is prized above all else. People playing alliance>galaxy is whats killing it, which I suppose is a good case to be arguing for smaller galaxies overall, ie, not lumping groups of players together. On the other hand the smaller, and more close-knit a galaxy gets, the less chance there is of a new player being welcome, and the greater the paranoia connected with every new arrival)
Numbers started going down after r4.

Also, you'll never have a situation where galaxies are right for everyone. there are always discontents. You have to accept that. As it stands, current galaxies suit the odd individual who gets lucky, but do not benefit any group, on the whole, galaxy setup as is is bad for all concerned,
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 01:49   #39
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
GAH! Here I go again! Restrictions are NOT the way to remove the incentive to self exile. Remove the things that make people want to self exile ffs.
Yes, I see what you mean,, as I've already said, having the buddypack/privates as one united force will be reflected with a more cooperative and friendly gal community. I think it goes without saying that gal cohesion leads to alot less people self-exiling. Having larger preorganized buddygroups increases loyalty to the gal they land intogeather, which again would lead to a reduction of self exiling. I suppose that one sentence was the only one that warranted attention

One of the incentives to self-exile is to land with "pros" and try to form a super gal. Some sort of restriction on our current lax exiling system* to prevent that from happeing would be desirable, don't you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
People playing alliance>galaxy is whats killing it,
HCs hogging and controlling other people's freedom and enjoyment to the extent they do really does suck the elephant wang. (don't kick me masters, i'm just saying) Even basic information like who you're fighting is exclusive.. I suppose it's efficient and the best way to win though and it keeps most people happy. At least newbs/randoms in this new system would have a chance to be useful for their bigger alliance gal m8s instead of being largely ignored by 2-4 opposing sides.

Quote:
Worse than ending up with lots of galaxies that hardly have any players in, or which are disadvantaged because some galaxies have a far higher proportion of private planets in?
I don't understand why having gals with the same number of planets would be harder to achieve then it is alreadly... Maybe there would be some problems with fixed limit gals, as the last gal left would be quite empty for a while...

If there wasn't enough randoms to fill in the private players, you could always increase the amount of privates in each gal equally ya know.














*new planets can self-exile countless times in their first tick since it's free, that definately has to be fixed..
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 08:56   #40
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Re: A necessary evil?

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Originally Posted by Bashar
You are missing my point entirely. The point of a galaxy is that it is UNIFIED. One dominant group is a better option than 2 groups vying for power. Conflict does not achieve unity. Which is a better option for an indicidual, having to go with the flow or being embroiled in a civil war where nobody trusts anyone and friendships are absent?
A galaxy is a group of people who don't know each other brought together to live under the same roof. The game works in such a way that it encourages them to cooperate with each other but it doesn't force them to cooperate. You were saying that things like fake IRC nicks, not defending each other cos a planet is hostile, not reporting incomings, etc... are a problem. I say it's all part of the game. I have been in galaxies with hostiles, inactive players and complete nobs, every time I've been able to live with it. In fact I have never known anyone who was unable to cope with a galaxy they've been in. You need to learn to adapt to the environment that you find yourself in. If you feel that you are unable to adapt to that particular environment then self exile.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 09:30   #41
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
You are missing the point, and in the process showing the problem within PA-Team (as I see it). You are looking and seeing we are suggesting that a problem exists, and from that thinking along the lines of "how can we block that problem". Blocking problems is not the point, make people exile anywhere you want, it makes fk all difference. What you need to do is stop people wanting to exile. go to the root of the problem. Get galaxy team spirit up and give galaxies a level of cohesion and the things you are suggesting become irrelevant. If you remove the reason for people to exile to start with, then you have no need to come up with ways of balancing through exile. It's a bit like Tony Blairs government, instead of dealing with a problem properly, just throw resources at it. The best bet by far is to make galaxies into what they are meant to be.
i'm not missing the point, I just don;t believe its possible to stop people wanting to exile.

lets say i'm in a random and I land in middle of the range private galaxy - I might quite possibly then self exile to try and get into a better galaxy. This is the problem, people allways want a better galaxy - this was the point about buddy packs, the idea was that each galaxy in essence has two chances rather than one of getting an active core - the downside is of course the conflict that having two good cores would create.

I believe we need to in essence force attitudes to change by forcing people to stay with their post shuffle galaxies. Now I believe that exile and self exile do have real uses, however the use should not be to find a better galaxy, it should be to remove someone who does not fit into a galaxy or who is spying etc, or in the case of self exile to leave a galaxy that contains people you can't get on with.

In the case of self exile this could be controlled by only allowing two self exiles OR by only allowing one self exile every 7 days. I'd also suggest not allowing self exile for free accounts as this means free multi accounts cannot be used to hop around between galaxies to spy on people - which means it should be safer to have no limit on galaxy size.

I am a strong advocate of having no limit on galaxy size for a number of reasons:
New legitimate signups get a chance to play in a decent galaxy
Same planet assignment code for new signups can be used pre and post shuffle and also for self exile and return from c200

The problems with this are:
large galaxies
free spy planets (this can be addressed thorugh self exile restrictions)

I believe that moving to a single pack of four, if thats what people want will reduce galaxy size. An additional option may be to allow people to form "random buddy packs" which are in essence another group of 4 people that would be used as a galaxy building block - the downside of this is that normal randoms wouldn;t know whether they are going to a galaxy with a strong core or a galaxy with no core.
I'm also unconvinced that a single pack of 4 as opposed to two packs totalling six planets will create a more balenced universe
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 09:43   #42
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Re: A necessary evil?

I think if we keep the current buddypack system but goes back to having a 10 man limit on galaxies we could prolly have a more balanced galaxy.

We could also have a 4 fleetslot for galaxy.

I do agree that the current galaxysystem isnt much to be desired.. Infact i dont like it at all. Because when you get such a large number of players in each galaxy and smaller universes you are bound to keep galaxyfarms where the new players expirience wave after wave of shipstealers..
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 09:59   #43
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Re: A necessary evil?

i think u will get the farming regardless of the galaxy system - in nfact surely its easier to farm a ne wplayer if he/her is in a galaxy by themselves?
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 10:14   #44
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Re: A necessary evil?

Thing is that with todays stealers you will get the a much higher grade of farming newbies than before. Since you can steal his ships, it is even more attractive to play. Imho, stealers should be removed from the game. That is one of the more negative things inflicting damage on the new players. You go to sleep for 8 hours, just to wake up to see your fleet gone.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 11:33   #45
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Thing is that with todays stealers you will get the a much higher grade of farming newbies than before. Since you can steal his ships, it is even more attractive to play. Imho, stealers should be removed from the game. That is one of the more negative things inflicting damage on the new players. You go to sleep for 8 hours, just to wake up to see your fleet gone.
With no salvage to boot...


Edit: and less roids to rebuild with.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 11:44   #46
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Re: A necessary evil?

To: Kargool - but that's the same as an Xan killing all your fleet. And there's no salvage for stolen ships? Well.... didn't even know. Screw realism, your ships are 'dead' either way.


As for removing stealing, I think the problem is the incentive to hit smaller players to steal their ships. Negative XP would appear to help solve this.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 11:54   #47
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Re: A necessary evil?

if you want to build back galaxy spirit, as I see it you need to do several things.

1. you need to remove the cloak and dagger.
part of the problem is this fake nicking business. when you don't know or don't trust who you're talking to it creates unrest and people do not readily co-operate. My own gal this round didn't fake nick past about tick 5 (except for some of the guys from one particular new alliance) as a result, our gal actually gets on. i've found new respect for some players, and would happily, send ships to die at their place if it helped them out. And that's not common for me.
How to stop fake nicking? well the answer lies in chika's thread just across the way there. Visable planet alliance tags. if you're going to have a private gal plus randoms, and trying to make a cohesive unit a lot of those random allianceless folks are going to land in gals which will want them to improve and will assist them to become active. and so you'll get less bashing of people with no tag, more in gal defending because people have to get on (see second point).

2. Remove the easy option to trade up (or out)
sort out exile. it needs to be periodic. kal's suggestion about only so often is a good one. For gal mates to want to help in new players they need to be forced to try and help them, eventually they'll find some that stick. So gal exile every 4 days or so? self exile 2 options to do so, again every 4 days. 2 max limit.
This gives gals an incentive to try and make a situation work, rather than just ruthlessley exiling, because frankly with the current option that makes the most sense for achieveing high end results.

3. extra gal defence
People join alliances mostly for the -1 eta on def. take that away, and alliances would basically become battle groups. So it's defence, not attack that creates unity the most. (yeah sue me for discussing cause and effect on a correlation, you know i'm right anyway). Give players a 4th slot to be used for in gal defence only. you now have an incentive to make your galaxy work, coupled with point 2 this is a carrot and stick approach.

now none of this is new, these are ideas that have been around for a while now, but implimenting them, will remove the source of the problem which is "why should galaxies co-operate when they stand to lose more than they gain". its all very well saying gals provide defence, but more times than not, you've got 2 fleets out attacking and 1 deffing your alliance, or 1 and 2, and nothing left for your gal, and you do this or your alliance doesn't send you def.

I'm totally behind the 4 or 5 bp and only 1 bp per gal btw (rnd 6 gals but with reduced numbers since the player base dropped) and yes you could still have fixed gal numbers, i think that's practical with the number of planets we have.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 12:06   #48
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Re: A necessary evil?

I agree with just about everything madnrisky has said apart from the alliance eta advantage - that is needed in order make alliances use the in game system - otherwise they won;t and any public tags would not work.

I'm all for the extra fleet for in gal defence, however i'm informed that becuase of the way Spinner coded fleets its a bit of a pain, but i'll get it looked into.
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 12:13   #49
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Re: A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I agree with just about everything madnrisky has said apart from the alliance eta advantage - that is needed in order make alliances use the in game system - otherwise they won;t and any public tags would not work.

I'm all for the extra fleet for in gal defence, however i'm informed that becuase of the way Spinner coded fleets its a bit of a pain, but i'll get it looked into.

no no I wasn't saying remove the eta advantage for alliances at all hehe

it wasn't about "drop this for alliances to make people rely on gals more", i like alliances. What i was saying was pretty much what you just did, that it's the defence bonus that makes people use alliances, so in order to make people use gals, they need a defence bonus. And eta won't cut it because eta isn't the bottle neck, fleet slots are, hence the suggestion.

and cheers btw, it's nice being agreed with
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Unread 22 Aug 2005, 12:26   #50
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Re: A necessary evil?

I dont think that having Open alliance tags is important about this, because if we do have open tags, the smaller alliances will get hit by alliances with more active better planets, instead of galaxybashing we would start to see Alliancebashing.
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