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Unread 3 May 2005, 19:32   #1
Furyous
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Unhappy Why is this game not kosher?

I apologise if this post is rather long, and I apologise up front if it turns out (although I can’t imagine quite how) that I am wasting your time. The matter I am about to address is, in my opinion, of crucial importance to the nature, the fairness, and to the legality of Planetarion as a commercial enterprise. I would thus appreciate a sensible, considered, and serious response from all those who post here.

I have paid for my Planetarion account. The majority of you, I’m sure, have also paid for your Planetarion accounts. Any breach of the rules (as per sign-up) by other players is an infringement of our rights as paying customers. Of course it is quite difficult, and sometimes impossible, for the administrative staff to identify and punish such ‘cheating’. Indeed, in the majority of cases, the Planetarion staff perform their very difficult job rather well: They cannot be held responsible for something that they cannot reasonably be expected to completely and fully control.

My concern is not about the performance of Planetarion staff with regards to players that do not obey the rules, but rather the performance of Planetarion staff in that they do not themselves, in all cases, strictly follow their own rules, and the rules of the game. The Planetarion staff can be expected to take responsibility, without exception, for any method of cheating that is fully within their control and their doing.

This brings me to my point: I have recently learned, and have been provided with conclusive evidence, that the Planetarion administration have, following a personal request, changed the race of a particular planet from Cathaar to Zikonian (and changed the planet name). That particular planet was already almost six hundred ticks into the game, and was not reset (score, fleet or asteroid wise) when the change took place. I can personally think of no reason for such a request to be granted by the Planetarion staff; and while actually admitting that they did change the race, they have refused to provide a reason for doing so (beyond the very vague). While this change may be of relatively little significance to the outcome of the game as a whole, I’m sure it has been of particular significance to some planets. More importantly, it stands as a potential example of administrative corruption, and I’m sure it’s not the one and only instance of such behaviour.

Please do not, at this time, request details of this particular occurrence, as I do not want to bring any unnecessary or unfair attention to the planet concerned. Needless to say, I would not have posted this without appropriate evidence. I have played this game since round three, and have very rarely posted anything on the Planetarion forums. In order for me to have taken such action, please believe that I personally feel extremely disappointed and angry. When a game is free to play, this activity can be excused (and perhaps expected); but when some two thousand plus people pay good money to play this game, and more importantly put so much personal effort into it, it is absolutely unacceptable for the administrators to bend the rules in any way for anybody. I’m sure your ‘absolute discretion’ clause can get you out of any legal problems, but in no way can it provide understanding among the Planetarion community. When the administration acquires a professional role, then it must be held accountable: any exceptional actions taken should be detailed and publicly explained.


Today I have approached an admin, who confirmed that he reset the planet concerned, and claimed that a mistake had been made and the planet had only been ‘partially’ reset (i.e. it was not quite the size it was before the race change, but it was much bigger than it would have been if it were fully reset to current ‘sign-up’ levels). In fact it looks like only the XP value was reset. I find it difficult to believe that the only time that particular admin has ever changed the race of a planet, he forgot to reset it, and even more difficult to believe that he accidentally forgot to ‘fully’ reset it. (Imagine a Zik with only Cathaar ships suddenly appearing where once a Cathaar with those same ships had disappeared). Apparently he didn’t notice his mistake, and nor did the player concerned inform the admin about it, even though he had been kind enough to change the race for him. It all seems very unlikely to me, and from the evidence I have I believe that the intention was never to reset the planet fully (the admin concerned denies this), but if it was a genuine mistake I apologise. In regards to the example above, I very much doubt that 550+ ticks into a game, a player would voluntarily forfeit all his ships and score just to change race.

My next question, of course, is why they would ever have any reason to reset the race of any planet, regardless of whether it was fully reset. If somebody is so unhappy with their choice of race that they want a full reset, then they should delete their planet, pay for another account and start again, randomly placed in a galaxy. The answer I got was that ‘quite a lot’ of these race changes had been made, not by Xontas but by other admins, for ‘customer relations’ reasons, and that they have now stopped doing it. I’m quite sure that the crew did not publicise this service and so some of those lucky and cheeky enough to have requested a race change (before tick 600 or so) were accommodated. But anybody else now has to delete their planet and start again (and pay again). My complaint is that the crew do not treat all players equally, and while they preach so strongly against sharing an I.P. and such, they are happy to bend the rules when they want to bend the rules for people they want to bend the rules for. When you provide a competitive game at a charge, you simply cannot distort the competition of the game through exceptional and preferential treatment.

If and when the Planetarion crew, or representatives thereof, reply to this, I want your reply to be very simple and clear: If you privately provide a convincing explanation to make such exceptions that is consistent with the rules of the game (and is not an inadequate ‘second-best’ solution to a problem), then I shall publicly apologise and close this thread. If your explanation is that your actions weren’t fully intentional, then I would also like to know why you didn’t compensate for any mistakes made. If you feel that a public explanation is necessary then that is your prerogative.

I’m sure that many who read this will already know that this behaviour goes on, and many who didn’t know will not be surprised (there has always been a certain degree of corruption among the Planetarion crew). And I’m sure that many will think that I’m taking this too seriously: As I said, one race change without reset will have minimal influence on the outcome of the game as a whole, but as Sir Humphrey famously said; ‘it’s the thin of the wedge’.

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Last edited by Furyous; 6 Jun 2005 at 14:29.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 19:54   #2
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous

Today I have approached Xontas, who confirmed that he reset the planet concerned, and claimed that a mistake had been made and the planet had only been ‘partially’ reset (i.e. it was not quite the size it was before the race change, but it was much bigger than it would have been if it were fully reset to current ‘sign-up’ levels). In fact it looks like only the XP value was reset. I find it difficult to believe that the only time Xontas has ever changed the race of a planet, he forgot to reset it, and even more difficult to believe that he accidentally forgot to ‘fully’ reset it. (Imagine a Zik with only Cathaar ships suddenly appearing where once a Cathaar with those same ships had disappeared). Apparently he didn’t notice his mistake, and nor did the player concerned inform Xontas about it, even though he had been kind enough to change the race for him. It all seems very unlikely to me, and from the evidence I have I believe that the intention was never to reset the planet fully (Xontas denies this), but if it was a genuine mistake I apologise. In regards to the example above, I very much doubt that 550+ ticks into a game, a player would voluntarily forfeit all his ships and score just to change race.
Yes this happend and yes this was a mistake

it was a mistake made by me and me alone
what happend is that not all of the changes i made went true and i didnt notice that they didnt

what i was planning to do is to reset the planet to the level where a new signup would end up.
nothing more nothing less
i told him so

tbh i should have noticed this and yes that is my mistake !

i have been made aware of this mistake by you and i have told you that do to the fact that its now long ago i cant fix it
taking the stuff off is not a option anymore so basicly the guy that got it was in luck
i did check, and the guy is not in the top 100
tho his gal is high ranked

now on why mistakes like this happen
its because we are human (how much you guys sometimes ask us to be UBER-human)
and yes we misstype and we miss buttons
not often but ones or twise every round a mistake is made

in this case he was set back a lot but not total ( lost ships, xp and tech but not cons and roids )
i am not gonna punish the guy now for my mistake
so in this case any complaint about my conduct is correct

to go short
i F***ed up
sorry to you guys for that
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Unread 3 May 2005, 20:02   #3
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

btw, why is it alway that if you make a mistake you are currupt and helping people

i would like to talk to anyone that can work flawless for 2 months
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Unread 3 May 2005, 20:14   #4
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
btw, why is it alway that if you make a mistake you are currupt and helping people
You're providing a service to paying customers. Anything less than full perfection isn't going to cut it, unless you've built up a large amount of goodwill among your customers.

Deal with it.

Edit: Also, I agree with what JC is going to say in the post below me. Although a tad lengthy to read, it makes for a valid complaint, rather than a random whine that is unfortunately all too common on various Internet gaming forums.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 20:16   #5
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
<snip>
Seeing as xontas has replied and seemingly admitted to it being a one off mistake (which shouldnt occur but nobody is perfect) there isnt much i want to say other than that i thought that was an excellent post. I wish more people would put forward any concerns they had in that kind of manner rather than just shouting weak accusations and insults at anyone and everyone. Well done .
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Unread 3 May 2005, 20:33   #6
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

I would like to thank Xontas for his apology, and as there is no non-circumstantial evidence to suggest that the partial reset was intentional, we must accept and trust that he genuinely made a mistake with regards to that particular planet.

Before posting, I was considering whether it would be good for the game and the community to publicise such things, but I have faith that the great majority of the planetarion community is mature enough to recognise the pressures that the staff sometimes must endure, and that they cannot be humanly expected to do everything perfectly. I love this game, and I have much appreciation for the work that the crew undertakes to keep the game going, and please believe that my last intention was to harm the community in any way or cause a reduction in the player base. I also believe, however, that as paying customers every player has a right to know such things.

My primary concern, however, was not that one particular planet hadnt been fully reset, but that any planet should have their race changed at all. What Xontas has done is account for why the planet wasn't fully reset, but he has yet to explain to me why the race was changed at all. I cannot personally think of any plausible reason, and perhaps Kal or Phil might want to explain why they made a 'customer relations' policy of doing this earlier on in the round, without publicising the fact?

Last edited by Furyous; 3 May 2005 at 20:51.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 22:13   #7
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

I'll not comment on the precise events and leave that to Phil^ or someone else form support. But from a development point of view on the list of things to get round to doing is an account reset feature which would reset an account to the current starting conditions. The downside to this is that people may somehow do it accidentally and then want it undone which of course would not be possible, so it may not be worth doing this unless there is serious demand (though from a coding point of view is straight forward to implement). My personal view is that if there are things that people ask admins to do that we could in theory allow them to do themselves which do not affect things significantly then why not allow them to do so.

In this case it is clear that a mistake was made, having features like account deletion and reset built into the game would remove the opportunity for admin mistakes to happen and give more choice to our customers, to me that can only be a good thing.

Xontas does a lot of good work for Planetarion and is hard working, English is not his native lanaguage so sometimes he does come across badly, but he is an excelent member of PATeam and I am utterly convinced that this was a complete accident. As to whether resets should happen and whether or not the planet should be exiled I'll leave that upto support team policy.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 22:19   #8
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Exclamation Re: Why is this game not kosher?

If these sorts of requests are at all common, then perhaps a user option to reset their own planet would be in order?

(With a confirmation box, ofc!)
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Unread 3 May 2005, 22:56   #9
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

I'm reasonably sure that something like that was bounded around last round and agreed as being a "good idea", since it would allow planets to reset to the current starting position, which would also go some way to sorting out the problems caused by the rolling start rolling past the limits for free accounts later in the round, and give planets that had been utterly devastated a second chance.
I can't however remember why it never made it into this round, although as I left a few weeks before the start there may be reasons I'm not aware of.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 22:56   #10
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Kal the easy solution to the accidentally reseting your planet is making them both type in their account name and password, and answer a login question, after doing that the planet is rest.

A person cant honestly claim that they accidentally wrote down their login info and answer 27-12=15 by mistake.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 22:57   #11
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
If these sorts of requests are at all common, then perhaps a user option to reset their own planet would be in order?

(With a confirmation box, ofc!)
More like 20
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Unread 3 May 2005, 22:57   #12
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Far from expecting the team to be 'UBER human', I would expect at least a little common sense to be used here. The planet wishing to change race does so at his/her own request and presumably because he/she does not want to pay again. Why can you not just give the person a free credit?
Surely this would beat giving someone such an unfair advantage, as they now know zik to be the strongest race, and cathaar to be the weakest. This also negates the fact some people were smart enough to pick out the best race at the start of the round.

Frankly I'm dissapointed in the level of professionalism displayed here, and while I am aware that people do indeed make mistakes, a little common sense could have solved this problem. I suppose we'll be told it's too late for that now though

At least Xontas was man enough to apologise for it and admit to his mistake however, so kudos for that/
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Unread 3 May 2005, 22:58   #13
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix
Kal the easy solution to the accidentally reseting your planet is making them both type in their account name and password, and answer a login question, after doing that the planet is rest.

A person cant honestly claim that they accidentally wrote down their login info and answer 27-12=15 by mistake.


Also, my respect goes to the original poster for writing a decent thread with no whining, one that explained things clearly and brought them to the community's attention.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 23:06   #14
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
I'm reasonably sure that something like that was bounded around last round and agreed as being a "good idea", since it would allow planets to reset to the current starting position, which would also go some way to sorting out the problems caused by the rolling start rolling past the limits for free accounts later in the round, and give planets that had been utterly devastated a second chance.
I can't however remember why it never made it into this round, although as I left a few weeks before the start there may be reasons I'm not aware of.
rolling start is fixed for round 14 - and by that i mean its actually a coded change \o/

reset has been on the todo list for some time, but never a high priority etc.
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Unread 5 May 2005, 17:57   #15
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

If this is reference A planet that I think it is then as far as i know the planet didnt actually keep all the ships at all and were all taken of the planet aswell as the xp and score.
As far as i noticed the only thing that was kept was research, roids and constructions already built ships score xp i am sure got reset?


edit: Not saying it was right to do the change and just noticed you did say there was a few more changes like this but i think they asked for a rest of planet and change of race and name because:
a) didnt want to pay again.
b) was happy with what galaxy they were actually in.
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Unread 5 May 2005, 18:41   #16
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

A self reset? Ermmm..... that is going to have to have SOOO MANY checks on it. You're gonna have to make it so that people have to input their password specifically to do that, as well as big bright text saying "THIS WILL COMPLETELY RESET YOUR PLANET" and a big fat disclaimer about it not being possible to undo.
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Unread 5 May 2005, 18:45   #17
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

If a planet is reset it is ONLY acceptable imo that thay are reset to the level that a new sign up would be. If that is unacceptable then they should not request a change of race. I understand that somebody wouldn't want to pay again, but they must also accept that if they want to change name and race, then it is only fair that they are randomly placed. It is not fair for alliance intel to suddenly become confused because a planet wants to change name but stay in the same gal. It has to be clear that it is still the same planet, or that planet must be fully reset and randomly allocated a galaxy.

btw Noah, are you implying that the planet concerned, in that you think you know who it was, knew that he wouldn't lose everything when he was changed?
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Unread 5 May 2005, 19:01   #18
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

keeping reserches, and resetting race, would be particularly unfair in many circumstances (as has happened here)

Cathaar for example do have a research bonus, perhaps I should pick cat until tick 72 and then request a change? I'm sure we'd all agree such behaviour is unfair
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Unread 5 May 2005, 19:10   #19
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
A self reset? Ermmm..... that is going to have to have SOOO MANY checks on it. You're gonna have to make it so that people have to input their password specifically to do that, as well as big bright text saying "THIS WILL COMPLETELY RESET YOUR PLANET" and a big fat disclaimer about it not being possible to undo.
the system I have in mind is similar to the delete system of old - you have 72 ticks to change your mind before it actually happens - this also means people have the opportunity to steal the roids before it happens.
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Unread 5 May 2005, 19:35   #20
noah02
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous

btw Noah, are you implying that the planet concerned, in that you think you know who it was, knew that he wouldn't lose everything when he was changed?
Well from reading the top of this thread there has been many of these Race changing peeps and no the person in question to who i thought but isnt who hes talking about actually asked on a whim joking about.
But no he didnt think he would keep anything tbh.
I wouldnt ask to change from Terran because i am to stubborn in my race that i will always beleive to be a good race . And squishy won't let me ever change
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The following is a list of problems found in various places throughout the manual and game. We love you Noah!

Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005

Retired just for a bit....

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Unread 5 May 2005, 19:41   #21
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
Well from reading the top of this thread there has been many of these Race changing peeps and no the person in question to who i thought but isnt who hes talking about actually asked on a whim joking about.
But no he didnt think he would keep anything tbh.
I wouldnt ask to change from Terran because i am to stubborn in my race that i will always beleive to be a good race . And squishy won't let me ever change
many race changes, but only one identified as not being properly reset.

either you know who i am talking about, or there is a second 'erroneous' reset.
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Unread 5 May 2005, 20:55   #22
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
many race changes, but only one identified as not being properly reset.

either you know who i am talking about, or there is a second 'erroneous' reset.
Maybe be there is a whole alliance of them
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The following is a list of problems found in various places throughout the manual and game. We love you Noah!

Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005

Retired just for a bit....

Proud to have been 1up, SiN, Wolfpack, Bluetuba and the leader of ARK.
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Unread 5 May 2005, 22:00   #23
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

When he was reset all he retained was 238 roids and about 30 structures.... I was there. This is really nothing to get upset about since it was just a veteran player asking the PA team to make his last 75% of the round more preferential.
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Unread 6 May 2005, 02:18   #24
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Master
When he was reset all he retained was 238 roids and about 30 structures.... I was there. This is really nothing to get upset about since it was just a veteran player asking the PA team to make his last 75% of the round more preferential.
The planet I am talking about, which I am quite sure is the same as the one you are referring to, kept more than 250 asteroids and kept an overall score of about 125k around tick 550 (I don't personally know how that equates in terms of structures/research etc). It is FAR MORE than a new planet would have started at that time.

And this is exactly the kind of attitude I am against. He may well be a veteran Planetarion player, but so am I. If I asked for such a favor, then beacuse I don't ever bother or speak to the Planetarion Crew unless I have a very particular reason, and I am and have never been particularly well known to them, they would decline my request. So as I said in the original post, this may well be a case of the planetarion crew bending the rules for the people the want to bend the rules for. That is, the people who are gobby enough and fussy enough to have made themselves well known to the Planetarion crew.

This game has always been, since r2 or so, a game of 'who you know', but I've said this and I will stick to it: When you charge money equally to every player for a competitive game you MUST treat every planet absolutely equally; veteran or noob, friend of admins or not, friend of top HCs or not etc etc.

And your post goes to show again that this particular player knew that he wouldn't lose absolutely everything when he changed race, and as minimal as that is in effect, it is corruption, it is favouritism, and it is commercially illegal. As much as I respect Xontas for his apology, I do not believe whatsoever that he genuinely made a mistake: I believe that he made a personal deal with that player. In a game when rules are very clearly stated, you cannot make any deals that are not also available to any other player.

That was the reason I first posted this thread. It is purely unprofessional and unfair and unjust. Yes, it's just a game, but it's a game that a lot of people put a lot of effort into: they all deserve and should absolutely expect equal and fair treatment. It's just not on. In fact, I'm sorry to say this but it's a joke.

Last edited by Furyous; 6 May 2005 at 02:31.
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Unread 6 May 2005, 04:04   #25
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

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Originally Posted by Furyous
I do not believe whatsoever that he genuinely made a mistake: I believe that he made a personal deal with that player.
Just in a moment of curiosity (yes, i know its a bad habit of mine), but what would Xontas have gained from this action? he would be going into considerable risk if it was discovered (as you did) and normally risk = reward. So, what was to gain?
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Unread 6 May 2005, 05:46   #26
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Tbh, it's an easy mistake to make. I have done this on a couple of occasions, although I don't usually change planet names for people - that they're stuck with. The sole reason (in my experience) for doing this is so that people won't have to pay again. Unfortunately with our current system there's no way of transferring a used credit to a new planet - plus it limits hassle for the paying customer, you can't sue us for that (!). Anyway, since this is the first round where we've really experienced a lot of these requests we've added a planet reset button to the to-do list for next round's admin tools. If you just have to push a button it eliminates mistakes (at the moment one has to reset all the resources, tech levels and ships) and hopefully will stop things like this happening! If you can think of anything else you'd like us to do, prod me

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Unread 6 May 2005, 05:48   #27
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Oh, on the implication that Xontas did it on purpose I believe that breaks the contract all the higher echelon admins sign with Jolt and he would probably get his arse sued off (!) so it's really not worth it!
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Unread 6 May 2005, 06:19   #28
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

I think that my opinion seems fairly consistent with the majority of public opinion which is:
1) Name should stay the same
2) Resets are fine, to the level that a new player would start at
3) Keeping your Galaxy is dubious, but not a deal breaker for me. The galaxy takes a big hit in score and has to defend the little guy.
4) Don't make him pay again. Insisting on that makes you a bastard
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Unread 6 May 2005, 17:34   #29
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph8
Oh, on the implication that Xontas did it on purpose I believe that breaks the contract all the higher echelon admins sign with Jolt and he would probably get his arse sued off (!) so it's really not worth it!
If you believe that any of the above is true, you are truly naive. I don't know who did what and I find it hard to care, but the notion that an admin is going to be sued for putting some slightly incorrect numbers in a database is ridiculous.
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Unread 7 May 2005, 03:11   #30
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
If you believe that any of the above is true, you are truly naive. I don't know who did what and I find it hard to care, but the notion that an admin is going to be sued for putting some slightly incorrect numbers in a database is ridiculous.
The notion is not about putting 'slightly incorrect' numbers in, it is of being sued for doing it on purpose.
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Unread 7 May 2005, 12:26   #31
The Master
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Re: Why is this game not kosher?

seriously, you're getting your knickers in a twist over nothing at all. Noone cares, now just get on with the game ffs.
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