Research trees and such

[Melesse]

This is sort of an extension of something I began talking about in another thread, specifically the thread on upgrading ships. I suggest four upgrades for ships in general instead of particular individual upgrades. Well, I thought about that, and have decided that they could fit into an updated research tree.

Now, this sort of follows how the tree went in R(4,5?)...I don't remember which one. In that round, if you chose the final -1 ETA, you could not get Military scans, and the opposite as well. There's alot of talk about cooperation, but if everyone can get all the research, what's the use for a scan planet? The only thing that denotes a scan planet, since all planets can have all scans, is an excess of amps. Considering how useless some of the constructions are once they cost a certain amount, I'm building amps and distorters just to have something to build.

So anyways, here is my suggestion for an amended research tree. I did not include lengths of time to research, just the order.

Travel time -
-1 ETA
-1 ETA
-1 ETA
-1 ETA

Scans -
Surface analysis
Technology
Unit
News
Security
JPG
Fleet

Cov Ops -
Network Charting
Earthquake Generators
Warp Core sabotage
EMP Emitters
Bank Hacking
Structural Integrity
Portable Warp Gates
Phantom Fleet Generators

Now, this requires some explanation before I go on. The researchs in Bold above can only be researched to the exclusion of the others. That way, there is a very definite path a planet will take. Either you attack faster, you scan better, or you can actually make a living off covert ops.

A few of these researches need explanation.
Security Scan - Important for anyone doing Covert Ops, this will reveal a targets readiness level.
Portable Warp Gates - In order for a cov op planet to be even worth considering, it has to have an ability to support itself. This research would allow cov op planets to steal roids a few at a time from a target planet. The cost should be somewhat under the cost to initiate, but with a chance of failure.
Phantom Fleet Generators - Again, how does a mostly cov op planet defend itself? Friends, or with this research, it could create phantom fleets that look like they're coming to defend the planet. It would have to have a reasonable cost, and it would only work on people intelligent enough to scan before they land.

There's more on Cov Ops I have to say, but it can wait until another post....

Improved Targeting - This would add a T2 to ships once researched.
FI
CO
FR
DE
CR
BS

This would have to be balanced of course, Perhaps it's only 75% as effective against the secondary target as against the primary.

Ship Hull research -
FI/CO
FR/DE
CR/BS
Structure Killer ships

I actually think structure killing ships should not be the same class as the roiding pods, I feel it encourages bashing, and I'm not sure this is the research that should be a choice versus T2 targeting, cause T2 would be the choice every time. Maybe make T2 Targeting part of a triumvirate with the +Attack and +Defense, so you can only get one of them? I dunno.

Core Mining -
2500 extra Res
2500 extra Res
2500 extra Res
2500 extra Res

Increased Salvage efficiency
Friendly/Enemy
+10%/+5%
+20%/+10%

These two to the exclusion of each other

Resource Handling - Stays the same, I like this one.

Improved weapons -
5% increased weapon power
10% increased weapon power

Improved Defenses -
5% increased armor
10% increased armor

These would be to the exclusion of each other, you can have one or the other, but not both. And the research would be very long in order to balance it.

I have lots to write on Cov Ops, time for a new thread!

Oh, and criticisms are lovely as long as you don't just mock and run :-p

Melesse

[TheBerk]

being the covert op whore that i am, i kinda like it would make for a very interesting game....

[Sinn]

The idea of adding a second target class to ships as research isnt gonna work. Every sane person would go for that, regardless of the other option(s). Gives you a huge tactical advantage.

[jerome]

2 Targetting would be a huge bonus with the stats set as they are. I believe to balance such an addition, there should be a few changes:

3 New Research Options

a] Add 2nd Targetting :: Gives all ships a pre-defined targetting :: Gives your ships a 5% loss of armour + damage :: Unable to research other 2 new research options

b] 10% additional Damage :: Gives all your ships 10% additional damage :: Unable to research other 2 new research options

c] 10% additional armour :: Gives all your ships 10% additional armour :: Unable to research other 2 new research options.

This would mean, a player would have to choose between:
a] versatility
b] efficiency
c] flakking
This could add new dimensions to each race atm, imagine, xanda`s with 10% more armour . Or Zik/Terran with more damage. Each race would get much stronger but they`d ofcourse also be neutralised by the same option being available to all other races.

[Melesse]

Originally Posted by Sinn

The idea of adding a second target class to ships as research isnt gonna work. Every sane person would go for that, regardless of the other option(s). Gives you a huge tactical advantage.

Which was why I said they needed to be less effective against the T2. The number 75% was just a random one thrown out there. It would also have to be set against something else worthwhile, maybe the +Attack/+Defense tree, as Ryzekiel said. So you could choose. The whole idea behind this is to allow players the choice to attack/defend how they want to, and to make choices to fit their playing style.

Melesse

[Appocomaster]

I definately like the idea of changing the research setup to force people to choose between some options. the eta / scans / covert ops one is fine (although I'm not sure about the fake fleets covert op - but i like the idea of being able to steal a few asteroids).

[Sinn]

Yes, i do think having to make decisions during research is a good thing,

[Tactitus]

The problem with tech trees in the past is that they have usually been no-brainers. For example: mil scans or ETA? It looked like a big choice--but what really happened? All the competitive planets took ETA and all the scan planets took mil scans. All the competitive players got their scans from scan planets, so no big deal for them. All the scan planets didn't care all that much about ETA (otherwise they wouldn't be scan planets), so no big deal for them. The only players for whom this choice wasn't a no-brainer were those who didn't have access to a scan planet; namely, single planets who weren't in an alliance or decent galaxy.

Tech trees sound good, but it's very hard to put real choices on the table that add significant strategy to the game.

[Blixxard]

I would make the suggestion that a larger and more expandable tech tree would be nicer. As for the moment Planetarion just needs to be played logically and not much luck is required.
I would be nice to see different tech tree routes for the races. Off the top of my head for Terran – With the pods it could be made to people can choose whether to research small tactical corvette class pod or large destroyer class pod.
Even bring back the old choose the path in the tech tree. The good old “Technology Dependency map” – Research this and you don’t get this. (In the old days research cloak detection and it would disable hyperspace research)

Anyway just throwing some ideas around.

[mist]

you're complaining that not enough luck is required?!?

-mist

[Purpleroselily]

Why is there not a research item that allows constructions to be carried out 2 or 3 items at a time for the cost of 1 item - it would speed up the construction process.

[Blixxard]

Originally Posted by mist

you're complaining that not enough luck is required?!?

-mist

I am not complaining about it. Just everything with Planetarion can be thought out logically. Having a dependency tech tree give players the chance to make decision based on logically assumptions. If I research this I will get this but I won’t get this.

[A2]

Originally Posted by Melesse

Improved Targeting - This would add a T2 to ships once researched

T2 will not be happening in r12.

[Brimstone]

I like the idea of variable tech trees. ATM, no matter how you argue about it, the game still depends largely on the number of ships, which is usually a direction proportion to how many roids you have, which affects your score etc etc.

The options listed above would add so many dimensions to the game i cant even begin to consider how messy it would be writing the mentor guide/manual for this sort of thing!
BUT (there's always got to be a BUT!), i think it would bring back a whole different life to PA, and a massive change like this would likely cause a 2nd big split in player-numbers, as many would not agree with it.

Brimstone

[Blixxard]

I agree that Melesse suggestion has value but is far too messy.

Dependant tech trees aren’t mess at all.
If people can understand this back then I think they could understand it today. However this suggestion is unlikely to get any serious considerations so I will leave it be.

[Brimstone]

one other thing i'd like to see, is more importance of structures. as it stands, its only worth building 1-2 of each factory. Finance centres are capped, so you can only build so many of them, and the only other option is to waste construction on amps, reflectors or mines.

I dislike the amount of time it takes to build amps/reflectors, it encourages scan-planets which i dislike as well.

I think ship factories could be put to more uses. Eg, each factory can only build one block of ship-class at a time (eg, a light factory can only build a block of fighters or Corvettes, not both at the same time).
There could also be a limit on number of ships each factory can produce, and a tree-branch can be added for ship-production (eg, start number of ships production would be 100, then next tech 200, 500, 1000, 10000 etc)

This would remove the effect of bashing, but would slow a targets production down should they loose a factory. As it stands, a person sends a kill fleet with structure killers, and a person looses his fleet, and likely hood is they loose factories. this means they have a poor fleet, and no way to recover it for another 8-20 ticks, depending on prod/con bonuses.

With the use of factories i've put forward, it would be that they could at least build some ships again if they built enough factories to start with, and would add a use to having more than 1 or 2 of them, and adds another dimension to the game.

Brimstone