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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 11:06   #1
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Random roid discovery

There are too few roids. This has numerous negative consequences; it encourages short-termist play (XP-whoring, not bothering to defend roids). It forces shorter rounds to avoid late-round stagnation. And, quite simply, big numbers are more fun.

My proposal is for random roid discovery; that is, that your fleet will automatically discover new roids in the local area around your planet.

How might this work? My initial idea is that it should be based on value/roid ratio; if you have, say, 50 roids and 1mil value in fleet (an admittedly extreme example), your ratio is 1:20000. Divide this by 500 (a constant value; I'm hoping that someone can think of a better one, or a formula for a dynamic value) and we get 1:40; based on this number, I think that the planet should find 40% of its initial roid count over the course of a day. In other words, that 50 roid planet would gain approximately 20 roids for free. Bear in mind that this is a very extreme and over-simplified example.

Let's take my current planet as a test case: I have (for the next 5 minutes, at least) 198 roids and 489k value. My ratio is 1:2469. Therefore I can expect to gain around 5% of my roid count for free - about 10 roids over the course of the day. I leave the precise mechanics of the calculations as an exercise for the later posters in this thread

This is really just an illustrative example of how something like this might work. I'm open to fairly radical revision of the idea if anyone can improve on it.

Key features:

1) Planets with very little value relative to their roid count (such as every planet at the start of the round) should gain few or no roids. This prevents any complication of the protection phase (although a simpler option might be to disable free roids for planets in protection!). It also reflects the intuitive basis of the idea: if you have fewer ships, they're statistically less likely to encounter free-floating roids on their travels.

2) Planets with bigger fleets and few roids should find more free roids. This is the counterpart to point #1. It also has the effect of ameliorating the worst effects of multi-wave 'bashing'; if you're left on 50 roids, you do at least know that you'll start getting some back for free. Also, it reduces the number of truly awful targets. Even if a person never attacks, over time they will acquire enough free roids to become a useful target for someone. More targets is a good thing.

3) I haven't given it enough thought yet, but I think this could be tied to the universe average roid/value ratio somehow. Stagnation is, mathematically, what happens when the roid/value ratio goes below a certain point (the point at which everyone has big fleets, no roids, and there's no profit in attacking). If we have an end date for the round, we might be able to create a formula which ensures that the universe average roid/value ratio does not fall below a certain level before that date. If the ratio gets bad, the rate of free roid discovery increases.

So, what do you think?
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 11:39   #2
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Re: Random roid discovery

yes it makes sense since in space there would be asteroids not atttached to any planet and just floating about waiting to be discovered.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 12:28   #3
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Re: Random roid discovery

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Originally Posted by Rinoa
yes it makes sense since in space there would be asteroids not atttached to any planet and just floating about waiting to be discovered.
There are also BORG in space!
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 13:34   #4
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Re: Random roid discovery

I think the introduction of the BORG to pa requires another thread Stoomcakes
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 13:46   #5
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Re: Random roid discovery

I will reply to this later this evening when I have time.

However, my initial reaction is that it is all relative.

For instance, (and this is completely random figures), say someone has 1000 roids and look for targets that ahve 500 roids. (50% is easy for me to calc).

If everyone has more roids, then the total you have goes up. Say 1200. Thus you are looking at getting targest with 600 roids. THis means you are still hitting the same targets.
With the percentages staying the same.

I may of completely missed the point though, I am certainly in a rush
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 13:52   #6
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Re: Random roid discovery

Or just make roids cheaper to initiate

Of course, random events like finding roids on the vicinity, or discovering a lost fleet and gain salvage from it would also be a welcome addition.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 17:53   #7
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
I will reply to this later this evening when I have time.

However, my initial reaction is that it is all relative.

For instance, (and this is completely random figures), say someone has 1000 roids and look for targets that ahve 500 roids. (50% is easy for me to calc).

If everyone has more roids, then the total you have goes up. Say 1200. Thus you are looking at getting targest with 600 roids. THis means you are still hitting the same targets.
With the percentages staying the same.

I may of completely missed the point though, I am certainly in a rush
Well...as small planets will gain free roids faster than bigger planets, the overall difference in size would diminish, as would the difference in increase-speed of value. This would relativate the differences between the top and the bottom (a little), and indeed delay stagnation. But it wouldn't eliminate the roots of the problem or solve the problem.

The same effect could easily be achieved, without any complicated formula, by giving everyone one free roid per tick: let's say top planet then has 524 instead of 500, and bottom planet now has 274 instead of 250. The relative difference will diminish from the top player having 2 times the bottom player's roids to the top player having approx. 1.91 times the bottom player's roids. Additionally, it would provide a constant roid flow/increase to the universe, which hardly is the case now after the initiating phase at round start.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 17:59   #8
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Re: Random roid discovery

Excellent idea Rob. I will come back to this once I have more time on my hands.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 20:44   #9
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Re: Random roid discovery

i agree with the idea , as it will provide a way for the weaker to grow stronger, while the powerful will be gain small amount still.
a nice ramdom event indeed!
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 23:41   #10
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Re: Random roid discovery

I think this is a very interesting suggestion. The formula presented is flawed, because it divides by size, then multiplies by it again. Thus it only distributes actual roids based on value (the percentages are higher for people with fewer roids, thus giving them more etc). I'm sure there are a lot of value players out there that are cheering
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 14:18   #11
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
1) Planets with very little value relative to their roid count (such as every planet at the start of the round) should gain few or no roids. This prevents any complication of the protection phase (although a simpler option might be to disable free roids for planets in protection!). It also reflects the intuitive basis of the idea: if you have fewer ships, they're statistically less likely to encounter free-floating roids on their travels.
Sure, make the gap between high and low ranked planets bigger, thats the way to go

Otherwise, interesting
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 14:28   #12
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
1) Planets with very little value relative to their roid count (such as every planet at the start of the round) should gain few or no roids. This prevents any complication of the protection phase (although a simpler option might be to disable free roids for planets in protection!). It also reflects the intuitive basis of the idea: if you have fewer ships, they're statistically less likely to encounter free-floating roids on their travels.
This would actually be solved if you implement it the exact way you described it, as something you find while operating your fleets. No fleet flying = no discovered roids. If the same rough forumula is applied (a bigger chance or even only a chance on finding roids on a lower roid ratio) it would certainly make a interesting addition.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 15:06   #13
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Re: Random roid discovery

Any system that would use: the more of <something> the more roids you discover, will enlarge the gap between large en small players. We dont want another system where large planets benefit.

The idea is interesting, but the WHEN should be much better
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 15:11   #14
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
Any system that would use: the more of <something> the more roids you discover, will enlarge the gap between large en small players. We dont want another system where large planets benefit.
The more roids you've lost over the round, the more roids you discover. That wouldn't benefit larger players more than smaller players would it

I think a flat random rate might be a good place to start with this. I also like Wandows's suggestion that active fleets have a chance of finding roids. It's very easy to decide how many maximum if the rate is flat, just multiply the percentage by 24 ticks per day. For example, 10% per tick means 2.4 roids per day. If the goal is (say) 10 roids per day per planet, the percentage per tick should be 10/24 = 41.7% per tick.

Rewarding active fleets provides incentives to both attack and defend, knowing that 'at the very least, I'll find some random roids'. Of course, some people would prefer the roids go to inactive targets as well, so that active players can farm them...
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 15:14   #15
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
Any system that would use: the more of <something> the more roids you discover, will enlarge the gap between large en small players. We dont want another system where large planets benefit.
No dear god! Lets not have a game where activity and skill are being rewarded . I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but if you read the post roid ratio is part of the formula to find new roids. If you already have alot, you won't find any either. And i'm quite sure the formula isn't intended to just find another 1000 roids over night, even 5 roids found a day per planet already make a nice extra amount of roids to fight over which is the entire point of the suggested change. Also, if you don't agree to it thats one thing, but all you do is attack the whole idea/suggestion one minor issue that can easily be balanced out giving the right values are taken up in the formula, constructive comments don't have to bad you know.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 18:23   #16
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Re: Random roid discovery

I like it.

The universe definetly needs more roids, and aside from reducing the initiation costs fairly drastically, this seems like a good idea to me.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 20:09   #17
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
yes it makes sense since in space there would be asteroids not atttached to any planet and just floating about waiting to be discovered.
Well yes, there are plenty of asteroids floating about - that's why we don't need to scan for them no mo'. It's the issue of why there would be thousands of asteroids with pre-existing mines on them that confuses me.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 21:06   #18
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3nn
Well yes, there are plenty of asteroids floating about - that's why we don't need to scan for them no mo'. It's the issue of why there would be thousands of asteroids with pre-existing mines on them that confuses me.
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Unread 9 Mar 2007, 21:47   #19
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Re: Random roid discovery

Nice idea, definatly should be taken forward in my opinion.
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Unread 10 Mar 2007, 08:57   #20
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
Sure, make the gap between high and low ranked planets bigger, thats the way to go

Otherwise, interesting
It doesn't necessarily increase the gap between high and low ranked planets. The idea is to increase the number of roids at planets with high value, to make them worth attacking and to reward those planets which keep their fleets alive. Please bear in mind the fact that such a change definitely is needed, and this change rewards those players without removing any other aspect of the game (XP, attack-oriented stats).
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Unread 10 Mar 2007, 13:56   #21
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Re: Random roid discovery

I think any random element should be excluded, so no one has more chance than others.

The chance to find a roid from last tick is stocked in database for each player.

During tick:

chance = (cur + lost/roids * avg/roids * 100)

cur = chance left from last tick
lost = total lost roids during round
avg = average planet size
roid = planet size

If chance > 1000, add one roid of the roids least present in universe for that player, and remove 1000 from chance. Keep doing that until chance is smaller than 1000, then save chance to database for next tick. This will also help to keep a balance between resources present in the universe.

If a planet has 180 roids, already lost 250 roids during round, and the average universe size is 300, that would lead to about 1 extra roid every 4 ticks. Which is not too much, but will make a difference. If you want faster or slower rates, you'll just have to change the 100.

Cheers.
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Unread 13 Mar 2007, 23:33   #22
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
It doesn't necessarily increase the gap between high and low ranked planets. The idea is to increase the number of roids at planets with high value, to make them worth attacking and to reward those planets which keep their fleets alive. Please bear in mind the fact that such a change definitely is needed, and this change rewards those players without removing any other aspect of the game (XP, attack-oriented stats).
So small players with little value and okay roids wount find shit?

And the big player with loads of value and okay roids would find more roids, thus gaining him even more value, getting even harder to attack?

I get your point. but it wount work.

Let everyone start with 100 roids, lower the % that pods can cap will gain more roids in the universe.
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 05:10   #23
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
So small players with little value and okay roids wount find shit?

And the big player with loads of value and okay roids would find more roids, thus gaining him even more value, getting even harder to attack?

I get your point. but it wount work.

Let everyone start with 100 roids, lower the % that pods can cap will gain more roids in the universe.
Value doesn't magically spring into existence. The one bad thing I'd have to say about this idea is that if we reintroduced zik stealing pre-r20 ziks would become far too powerful.
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 10:16   #24
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Re: Random roid discovery

With getting more roids, you will get more value over the time.
Thats pretty self explanation, the big value players, are usually in bigger alliance's and so have a bether chance of getting def.

And when they start to find roids for free, this will again make a bigger difference between small and big.
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 10:29   #25
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
With getting more roids, you will get more value over the time.
Thats pretty self explanation, the big value players, are usually in bigger alliance's and so have a bether chance of getting def.

And when they start to find roids for free, this will again make a bigger difference between small and big.
You don't seem to understand how this will work with respect to all periods of the round. Sure, in your hypothetical big value players with few roids will gain more back than smaller value players with average roids. However this also addresses issues at the start of the round when the smaller alliance players get roided down. These players will narrow the gap quicker now due to their improved ratios. This also has the massive bonus of helping players who get roided down badly at any point during the round (and I'm sure we can both agree these are largely smaller alliance players). Sure, it will help some big value players in big alliances but this is off-set by the larger bonus it gives to others. Overall we should be aiming at improving everyone's gameplay experience, not merely balancing the field.
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 11:05   #26
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Re: Random roid discovery

I agree on that point.

But with more roids to start with and a lower cap % , you will have your roids longer. Thus your value will be higher and you have a bigger chance of surviving.

Leveling the playing field should be the top priority is my meaning.
The roid findings will level it to some point, but I have a feeling later in round it will be only big planets taking advantage of it.
Smaller planets then allready have okay value and okay roids. Nothing more, if they get roided down it aint so long up as it would be for a top player with 2mil value and 2k roids. The small player will lose maybe from 300 roids down to 150, the big player will lose from 2000 to 200.
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 11:30   #27
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
I agree on that point.

But with more roids to start with and a lower cap % , you will have your roids longer. Thus your value will be higher and you have a bigger chance of surviving.
Attacking will also be less profitable, counteracting the existance of more roids.
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Unread 14 Mar 2007, 12:47   #28
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Re: Random roid discovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
So small players with little value and okay roids wount find shit?
They would find less than similarly-sized players with fewer roids. Or larger players with more roids. 'Small' in this context doesn't necessarily mean 'newbie'; it could mean 'moron' or 'inactive', someone who either plays badly or doesn't play actively.

Quote:
And the big player with loads of value and okay roids would find more roids, thus gaining him even more value, getting even harder to attack?
Having more roids makes a target easier to attack, because the payoff is much higher.


Quote:
Let everyone start with 100 roids, lower the % that pods can cap will gain more roids in the universe.
How would this work?

Quote:
With getting more roids, you will get more value over the time.
If you never get attacked, that's true. But having more roids increases your chances of being attacked, which might actually cause you to lose value in combat.

Quote:
Thats pretty self explanation, the big value players, are usually in bigger alliance's and so have a bether chance of getting def.
But if they're getting lots of def then they have lots of roids, then they won't find many free roids...

Quote:
And when they start to find roids for free, this will again make a bigger difference between small and big.
This might be a problem. However, I think we can avoid the worst consequences of this by ensuring that free roids are only distributed to those planets which have very low roid/value ratios; those whose roid/value ratios are so low that they are useless targets for anyone else. I don't think anyone can complain about a system which ensures a supply of good targets. This has the added benefit of compensating those who get roided dry by 8 waves of incoming.

I don't quite understand your last post
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