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Unread 16 May 2010, 10:56   #101
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Re: Alliance player limit

I am very much on the fence on this, before I've advocated lower alliancelimits, and I do not really care what it is. However one thing kinda hit me. We've had high limits over the last few rounds, and it havent really done anything for the drop in active planets. So lowering the alliance limits would probably not cause much more drop in players, its not like we have that many to lose.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 11:10   #102
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
If it had over 50% approval then we should try it yes? like everything else?
No, we should not. Game design is not a democracy. I've said it before, but I don't think I've ever explained why I feel this way. Here goes.

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people aren't able to predict the outcome when proposing changes in the game. Even people who have expertise in this field aren't always able to do that.

Look at Starcraft, for example. The game developers basically had no idea how the game would be played 5 or 10 years down the road. I'm not just talking about the specific strategies used or which unit combinations are effective against which, but even basic stuff like the pace of gameplay (sometimes over 400 actions per minute). If experts have a hard time predicting stuff, what makes you think amateurs would be able to?

In that light, asking basically random people "do you want this change?" is pointless. They will project their own preconceptions onto it, twist it beyond recognition, and come to a decision that is not just devoid value, it corrupts the rational debate on the issue by obscuring reason with noise.

A good example of one such preconception is "top alliances want to be big". Sure, we've had big top alliances (Ascendancy in round 31 is a good example, with 120 planets, 36% more than the second biggest alliance), but overall, good alliances tend to realise that adding players to an already effective alliance is not usually the right course to take, for reasons already laid out earlier in this thread by Tzu (harder to organise and later recruits will be worse by definition). Examples of universally accepted strong alliances that have taken this approach would be Apprime and Ascendancy in round 34 and 36, DLR since forever, and eXilition in round 18, 19 and 23.

A much better question to ask is what kind of results people are looking for. Ask them about the ends, not about the means. Would you like easily understandable game or do you not mind a bit of a learning curve? Would you prefer playing in a relatively small universe or would you rather have a larger one? Do you want to play mostly with your friends or would you like to meet a bunch of new people every round?

You should ask these questions because you want to know what kind of game people would like to play, without getting stuck in the specifics of concrete implementations. Once you figure that out, you can think up game mechanics that you think will give people a game they like. If people say they want to play with their friends, you know you need to introduce some mechanism to allow that (for example, private galaxies or buddypacks). If people say they don't mind a learning curve, you know you could create depth by adding overshooting to the ship stats or by introducing covert operations.

Doing it this way avoids the preconceptions people have about certain game features and cuts right to the heart of the matter: what kind of game would people like to play.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 11:16   #103
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Re: Alliance player limit

I dont normally post on these asc forums um sorry i mean these forums,

and probably wont bother again, well atleast untill the pa team realise that there is more than 2 allys that play this game and are prepaired to listen to the rest of the community.

Heim me old m8 if i was you i would just give up because your fighting a losing battle,these forums for at least the past 5 rds or so have been dictated by asc and there bum chums, that will never change untill they get there heads out there asses and look at things from everyones point of view and not just theres.

For the PA team if you ever read this which i doubt as im not one of the mighty asc crew that tell you what to do every rd, PLEASE PLEASE listen to other alliances while we still have a game becuase at this rate the only allys that will end up playing this is asc and app, because the smaller ally dont count in this wonderfull game of yours
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Unread 16 May 2010, 11:41   #104
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Re: Alliance player limit

Hmm. I feel I read/participated in such a discussion before about alliance size. Another parallel is that mz was there and he was throwing numbers around to prove points. Difference now is that he uses them correctly. Interesting!

Anyways, let me be clear: I am pro smaller tag limits, but that is not the point for me atm.
As I am even more pro decision making consistency of PA team. Because the greatest nonsense is the alteration of alliance size every ****ing this or that round. Choose!!! Communicate!!! Lead!!!

*sigh*

btw mz: if I take a look at your data the question rises what happened in round 22 with a decrease of 1600 players to round 23?
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Unread 16 May 2010, 11:45   #105
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Re: Alliance player limit

Round 22 was free, so it makes sense that there'd be a decrease when the game returned to paid, though 1600 is surprisingly large.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 12:16   #106
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
As I am even more pro decision making consistency of PA team. Because the greatest nonsense is the alteration of alliance size every ****ing this or that round. Choose!!! Communicate!!! Lead!!!
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
btw mz: if I take a look at your data the question rises what happened in round 22 with a decrease of 1600 players to round 23?
The data has a 'comments' column with useful additional info that explains some of the more interesting changes.

ell is partly correct. Round 22 was free, so a drop in round 23 should be expected. Additionally, in round 23 a new inactivity deletion mechanism was introduced.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 16 May 2010 at 13:03. Reason: typo
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Unread 16 May 2010, 12:29   #107
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Re: Alliance player limit

At this stage it's probably just easier to take 50 man tag limits for a round, watch as nothing happens and then bump this thread.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 13:40   #108
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Re: Alliance player limit

Firstly, thank you mz for actually explaining yourself for once, much appreciated atleast now i understand where your coming from with your arguements.

Secondly, i think JBG is right, we should just try it and see what happens.

The point also made about these being Asc forums has also proven true it seems and hopefully now the smaller allainces are starting to have there say in threads likes this ppl migt actually start listening a bit more... i wont hold my breath tho!!!!


The main thing is tho we should just try it as although its not great for consistentcy as ppl have pointed out correctly it is the way the game is been done atm things are being tried and tested to see what works best.


I think still firmly beleive the main pro for 50 man tags is an evening out of alliances defence resources which will hopefully make attacking a more positive round plan than the current def and valuewhore for the win, which in turn could lead to be different politics and maybe even some fun!!!

Who knows 50 man tags might been a brilliantly organised but compact allaince like DLR might compete for the win for once??
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Unread 16 May 2010, 13:49   #109
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The point also made about these being Asc forums has also proven true it seems and hopefully now the smaller allainces are starting to have there say in threads likes this ppl migt actually start listening a bit more... i wont hold my breath tho!!!!
For the record only 3 ascendancy members, theam, mz and ell, have posted multiple times in this thread.

Quote:
I think still firmly beleive the main pro for 50 man tags is an evening out of alliances defence resources which will hopefully make attacking a more positive round plan than the current def and valuewhore for the win, which in turn could lead to be different politics and maybe even some fun!!!
This is insane. Last round we saw that Apprime were the hardest alliance to hit and they actually had less than 50 members while most other alliances had more. The reason why some alliances are harder to hit is that they're a lot more active than the others.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 14:10   #110
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Secondly, i think JBG is right, we should just try it and see what happens.
Your sarcasm detector is way off. JBG knows fully well what will happen, he's effectively saying that you don't seem to be capable of comprehending the theoretical proof, and as such you wouldn't believe me if I told you that you can't walk through walls until you've had a chance to try it once or trice.

It's ok, go bang your head against that wall now. I'll wait.

Ok. Does your head hurt? Yeah, sometimes life is like that. Did you manage to walk through the wall? No? Ah well, I could have told you beforehand, but I guess you don't like me making assumptions about the nature of the molecular bonds of the atoms which make up your wall. Extrapolating from my knowledge of other solid objects and a sound theoretical framework. No, you're right, best to try it anyway and find out.

Oh, I just realized something! Maybe you tried the wrong wall? Maybe it only works with walls facing westwards! Or south! Or maybe it doesn't work with drywall, maybe it has to be wood! You should really investigate further!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The point also made about these being Asc forums has also proven true it seems and hopefully now the smaller allainces are starting to have there say in threads likes this ppl migt actually start listening a bit more... i wont hold my breath tho!!!!
This is a logical fallacy that seems to be very popular right now.

The source of information does not taint the information given, unless the information itself has been altered. If, however, you can not show that the information has been altered to fit the arguments, then you have no reason to dismiss this information simply because it doesn't fit your point of view.

In the same way, the logic of an argument is not tainted by the person giving them. There may be logical biases, however a good debater would indeed aim to control for his own biases, but even if bias is present you can still follow the logic and determine whether it holds up or not. If you can not show faulty logic, then regardless of preconceptions, the reasoning is accurate.

If, regardless of the oppositions correct data and reasoning you still do not agree with them, there are two options:
a) There is something which the reasoning overlooks, and if so, it is upon you to prove that there are further variables to this situation which should be considered, and to show how controlling for these proves your point.
b) If you can not find fault in either information, reasoning or scope of the argument, but still do not agree with it, you need to realize that you are in fact wrong, and simply accept this conclusion as being the only one supported by the evidence, even if it doesn't feel good to admit fault.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 15:55   #111
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Firstly, thank you mz for actually explaining yourself for once, much appreciated atleast now i understand where your coming from with your arguements.
...
The point also made about these being Asc forums has also proven true it seems and hopefully now the smaller allainces are starting to have there say in threads likes this ppl migt actually start listening a bit more... i wont hold my breath tho!!!!
You just accepted mz's arguments about listening more to your ideas for changes as being a bad thing, and then went ahead and tried to encourage PA team to listen to your ideas again. This is really quite a depressing thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Who knows 50 man tags might been a brilliantly organised but compact allaince like DLR might compete for the win for once??
This would just attract more attention for DLR, something which they've usually avoided, bar r36 where they demonstrated they were unable to cope with the extra attention.



50 man tag limits mean two things:
1) Apprime and Ascendacy, who are currently uninterested in recruiting significantly (I would not expect App to be much over 50 and Asc to be much over 60 going in to r37), would each have 50 of the best players, and other alliances would be unable to compete with a similar size but lower ability/activity level. You talk about mass-recruiting/out-numbering being a bad/"unfair" tactic for winning, but it is actually one which makes the round more interesting, one which allows more alliances to compete. With a 50 man tag limit, we'd have endless rounds dominated by Asc or App - it'd get ****ing boring for everyone pretty quickly.

2) The bigger alliances would have to kick members. By my count, looking at last round's final numbers, 176 people would have to be kicked. There's a few alliances that could take in some extra people, I'd say roughly 25 in total looking at the stats from last round. That still leaves 150 people allianceless. It is a widely accepted fact that there aren't enough people willing and able to lead an alliance any more. Let's suppose however that from somewhere we manage to find enough people to set up an alliance. That's still 100 people left out.

In summary: smaller alliance tags does not make the game more competitive because alliances that usually rely on a higher average score to make up for a lower member-base will dominate, and on top of that there will be people left allianceless because there simply aren't enough people able to properly run alliances.

Also cudos Tzu, nice wall analogy! (This thread certainly feels like I keep trying to walk through a wall!)
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Unread 16 May 2010, 16:03   #112
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Re: Alliance player limit

You're just too afraid it could work to try it. The more you write the more obvious it becomes.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 16:07   #113
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Re: Alliance player limit

ellonweb atleast your answer to what i put is put in terms everyone can understand. Atleast now i know our point of veiw and opinion on 50 man tags.

The problem with mz and sun tzu is they try and be all clever or just completely dismissive. Alot of ppl just reply to there posts to annoy mz some more or make sun tzu write another wall of cryptic bullshit that know one can even be bothered to read
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Unread 16 May 2010, 16:09   #114
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
No, it hasn't. Blocks have been around since the dawn of Planetarion and have not become more prevalent with either the increase or decrease of tag limits. The only thing that's happened (in the last 20 rounds, not just in the last 5) is that blocks have become more fluid.


No, it won't. This is not backed up by the data. Have you read my earlier post about it?
Your data contains the last 20 rounds. I remember pre-tag (old PA) and PA with tag limits (PaX). Trust me there is a difference. Remove the limit and we'll go back to the old stagnated rounds.
BTW. your data doesn't show anything more than: more players leads to more alliances with >40 members. When more players are expected (e.g. free rounds) the alliance limit is raised. This correlation makes your data useless.
It does not refute the logic that a low limit will lead to more tags (although we never had very low limits, making it impossible to support this with historical data).
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Unread 16 May 2010, 16:09   #115
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Re: Alliance player limit

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You're just too afraid it could work to try it. The more you write the more obvious it becomes.
Pissing my pants.


With laughter, that is.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 16:22   #116
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Re: Alliance player limit

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The problem with mz and sun tzu is they try and be all clever or just completely dismissive. Alot of ppl just reply to there posts to annoy mz some more or make sun tzu write another wall of cryptic bullshit that know one can even be bothered to read
I already posted a very intellectually honest and thoughtful argument earlier in this thread.

However, as you say, it seems like you are not willing or able to comprehend what I write, and as such dismiss it as "bullshit" rather than trying to understand the logic of it. At that point it becomes completely ok for me to just sit back and mock you as you continue to spew your nonsense with complete disregard for actual, honest and thoughtful discussion.

Don't fault me for reacting negatively to your posts when you've made no attempt what so ever to engage me in actual discussion.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 16:28   #117
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
Your data contains the last 20 rounds. I remember pre-tag (old PA) and PA with tag limits (PaX). Trust me there is a difference. Remove the limit and we'll go back to the old stagnated rounds.
BTW. your data doesn't show anything more than: more players leads to more alliances with >40 members. When more players are expected (e.g. free rounds) the alliance limit is raised. This correlation makes your data useless.
It does not refute the logic that a low limit will lead to more tags (although we never had very low limits, making it impossible to support this with historical data).
That is a valid interjection, however you would still need to prove your statements about pre-pax as well as prove that indeed your interpretation of the relation between tagsize and amount of players is the correct one.

For one, I don't believe there has ever been a real discussion about the expectancy of how many players would sign up for any given round, and indeed for most rounds, predicting this would be mere folly, especially at such an early point as when the tag size limits are announced, as the alliances have not yet reacted in terms of their recruitment actions at that point.

On the other hand, once the tag size is announced, a lower tag size will prove less of an incentive for the alliance to go out and recruit, as they have less work to do in order to fill the tag and compete. So it seems more justifiable to claim that announcing a lower tag size would, over time, encourage alliances not to recruit players and not to encourage their members to keep playing, as it is easier for them to simply have players retire then to have to kick out members from their tags if indeed they go over the limit.

Your move.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 16:40   #118
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
Your data contains the last 20 rounds. I remember pre-tag (old PA) and PA with tag limits (PaX). Trust me there is a difference. Remove the limit and we'll go back to the old stagnated rounds.
While I only started playing Planetarion in round 16, I played Pia, which does not have a tag limit. I can't say I saw more stagnation there than I do in PAX.

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Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
BTW. your data doesn't show anything more than: more players leads to more alliances with >40 members. When more players are expected (e.g. free rounds) the alliance limit is raised. This correlation makes your data useless.
That correlation does not exist. For round 16 the tag limit was lowered, while for round 22 and 27, it was kept the same. Round 30 was the only free round for which the tag limit was raised.

That said, I agree that the data does not support any conclusion about tag limits, be they high or low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
in fact It does not refute the logic that a low limit will lead to more tags (although we never had very low limits, making it impossible to support this with historical data).
Like I said before, give me a reason why having the tag limit at 50 (which seems to be the reference case for the low tag limit crowd) will lead to more alliances that does not also apply to the rounds in which the tag limit was 60.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 16:57   #119
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
ellonweb atleast your answer to what i put is put in terms everyone can understand. Atleast now i know our point of veiw and opinion on 50 man tags.
And I for one applaud ell for spelling things out so that even an idiot can understand what he's saying

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The problem with mz and sun tzu is they try and be all clever or just completely dismissive. Alot of ppl just reply to there posts to annoy mz some more or make sun tzu write another wall of cryptic bullshit that know one can even be bothered to read
Ok, whilst ellonweb might well be more keen for you to understand the flow of the conversation than others; I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that it's nobody's responsibility to ensure that every point made and every metaphor relied upon for illustration is simple to the point that even you could comprehend what's being said.

While I fear this may be completely off-topic, I'd suggest you take this opportunity to read the responses you're receiving just now. Sure, in a perfect world everyone would agree with you, and you would be the king. In the absense of any crowns, thrones, robes or staffs I suggest that if you'd like to know why people are disagreeing with you, you put in a bit of effort to understanding their reasons why.

From your point of view - if you understand where your opposition is coming from it'll better equip you to argue (should you still feel that need). For the rest of us it will save a lot of frustration because at the moment it just seems like you're throwing your toys out of the pram because people aren't agreeing with you. You'd also get a lot more community support if it looked like you were taking the time to see where any opposing viewpoint is coming from.

In this case the answer is "experience".

Oh, and just because you throw accusations of ignorance around, doesn't mean they're going to stick. That 'cryptic bullshit' you were referring to were examples of some of the most explanatory and logical arguments you're likely to see on the forums. If you don't understand them, perhaps you should take a look inside to see if the problem maybe lies at home.

Asides from that, can I just say that I'm in favour of capless alliances and full player contribution. From experience this hasn't damaged any game that's adopted this structure any more so than anything we're currently doing. For reasons, see previous posts in the thread.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:16   #120
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Re: Alliance player limit

Why should we have to wade through pages of Sun's meaningless bullshit when a simple 2 or 3 line answer would suffice. Its nothing to do with my lack of intelligence i just dont wanna have to read an essay of waffle everytime he posts
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:19   #121
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Why should we have to wade through pages of Sun's meaningless bullshit when a simple 2 or 3 line answer would suffice. Its nothing to do with my lack of intelligence i just dont wanna have to read an essay of waffle everytime he posts
Because at times this world is more complicated than a fortune cookie.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:20   #122
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Why should we have to wade through pages of Sun's meaningless bullshit when a simple 2 or 3 line answer would suffice. Its nothing to do with my lack of intelligence i just dont wanna have to read an essay of waffle everytime he posts
Okay. Here it goes: So far there have been plenty of reasons why alliancelimits are bad and all reasons why alliances should be small have been refuted or have been shown to be logical phallacies or non-reasons at all. Therefore: ALLIANCE LIMITS BAD, DISCUSSION GOOD.

Here, a summary. You can accept this now.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:23   #123
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Re: Alliance player limit

Well if it had come from anyone but you or another one of the forum trolls i might have done but i still feel without it being tested ina round you cant conclusively say it wont work. Let us try and then we'll know
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:25   #124
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Re: Alliance player limit

Words fail me.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:26   #125
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Let us try and then we'll know
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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
...you don't seem to be capable of comprehending the theoretical proof, and as such you wouldn't believe me if I told you that you can't walk through walls until you've had a chance to try it once or trice.

It's ok, go bang your head against that wall now. I'll wait.

Ok. Does your head hurt? Yeah, sometimes life is like that. Did you manage to walk through the wall? No? Ah well, I could have told you beforehand, but I guess you don't like me making assumptions about the nature of the molecular bonds of the atoms which make up your wall. Extrapolating from my knowledge of other solid objects and a sound theoretical framework. No, you're right, best to try it anyway and find out.

Oh, I just realized something! Maybe you tried the wrong wall? Maybe it only works with walls facing westwards! Or south! Or maybe it doesn't work with drywall, maybe it has to be wood! You should really investigate further!
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:36   #126
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Re: Alliance player limit

see what u said is irrelevant ST cos its ALL BASED ON YOUR OPINION COS THE DATA EVERYONE HAS PROVIDED IS INDICATING AN ASSUMPTION THERE IS NO CLEAR FACT THAT IT WONT WORK!! Like priv gals a lot of ppl said they would be shit but we are currently giving them a try to see so why can it be the same for 50 man tags with full score contribution?
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:41   #127
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Well if it had come from anyone but you or another one of the forum trolls i might have done but i still feel without it being tested ina round you cant conclusively say it wont work. Let us try and then we'll know
I'm not a troll.

Also, go read Tzu's 'wall' analogy. It was so perfect I daren't attempt an alternate version for the purposes of re-illustration simply because I don't forsee myself being able to do it justice.

Suffice to say that there are no certainties in life, just probabilities. Probabilities which, I may add, are created on the backs of logical conclusions and estimations fed by an extensive history of behavioural trends and community reactions to past changes, adaptations and updates.

If I dropped an apple, it will probably hit the ground. There's also a possibility that it will not. All my experience has shown that it's highly unlikely that anything should intervene and prevent the apple from reaching the floor. Basically what you're suggesting is that we drop the apple, just to be sure.

Like the apple, PA will end up just being bruised should we see your chosen course of action out for the sake of satisfying your curiosity and I can't see how you can justify charging everyong in excess of £5 and 8 weeks of their life just to prove you wrong.

Which is what would happen.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:42   #128
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Like priv gals a lot of ppl said they would be shit but we are currently giving them a try to see so why can it be the same for 50 man tags with full score contribution?
A lot of idiots said private gals won't work, yes.
A lot of idiots are currently asking for lower tag limits.

HEY GUYS I THINK I SEE A CORRELATION!
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:43   #129
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
see what u said is irrelevant ST cos its ALL BASED ON YOUR OPINION COS THE DATA EVERYONE HAS PROVIDED IS INDICATING AN ASSUMPTION THERE IS NO CLEAR FACT THAT IT WONT WORK!! Like priv gals a lot of ppl said they would be shit but we are currently giving them a try to see so why can it be the same for 50 man tags with full score contribution?
I will henceforth address you only in bulletpoints, in order to try and make this information such that you might understand it as well:

-Gerbie did not address Mz's original intent with the data.
-I did disprove Gerbies interpretation of the data.
-Gerbie has failed to respond to my arguments.
-The logic of my original post (or subsequent posts) has not been disproven.
-The scientific frameworks used to back up the logic have not been disproven.
-Logic backed by scientific frameworks is an argument, not an opinion.
-SCREAMING DOESN'T MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT ANY MORE BELIEVABLE, ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS NO FURTHER SUBSTANCE TO IT!
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Unread 16 May 2010, 17:54   #130
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Re: Alliance player limit

Look all i am saying is this, and it will be the last time I'll post on this thread. The viewpoint of someone that spent the majority of rounds in those 2nd tier alliances.

I do agree that 2nd tier alliances always have lost members to those bigger alliances. The list of names that started out in PA in the many 2nd tier alliances i played for and ended up in 1st tier alliances is to long for me to mention.
( or my post will have the epic length of Sun tzu posts)

But with 100 man tag limit that migration will in my eyes be to high, cause we don't have the player base to replace those people in 2nd tier alliances.
Leaving the question for many of the brave souls leading those alliances, why should we continue this shit? cause it simply takes away the main goal of those 2nd tier alliances. To train new or returning players and hopefully one day grow bigger with a nice core.

Well all i know is this puts those 2nd tier alliances with there backs against the wall. Cause the advantages of accepting new players just won't be there anymore. Either we can redefine ourselves or simply die out over the coming rounds.

Those are at this point the only two options that are left for 2nd tier alliances. And its not something we have to like cause the holy grail of data you keep pulling out of your ....

And i do agree that PA team needs to make a permanent decision that will last multiple rounds. And not keep changing tag limits every two rounds.
Either we go for 100 tag for multiple rounds or we go down to 50.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:15   #131
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
But with 100 man tag limit that migration will in my eyes be to high, cause we don't have the player base to replace those people in 2nd tier alliances.
Leaving the question for many of the brave souls leading those alliances, why should we continue this shit? cause it simply takes away the main goal of those 2nd tier alliances. To train new or returning players and hopefully one day grow bigger with a nice core.

Well all i know is this puts those 2nd tier alliances with there backs against the wall. Cause the advantages of accepting new players just won't be there anymore. Either we can redefine ourselves or simply die out over the coming rounds.
At last, some honesty. There are a number of possible conclusions from this. Sorry, this is a bit complicated, so I'm going to skip the bulletpoints this time.

You admit that, given no artificial attempts to sustain the 2nd tier alliances, they are not fully capable of doing so themselves. This, in effect, implies that there are too many of them, and the game would benefit from having a number of them fail, allowing for the rest to grow healthy again. Thin the heard, redistribute resources.

Now, this doom and gloom scenario is a bit overly pessimistic. I believe you overestimate the inclination of the top alliances to recruit your members. The previous round had a tag limit of 100, with every alliance still having room in their tags, especially App and Asc who were even under the limit for counting members. If indeed these alliances were prone to recruit endlessly given the chance, would they not each have done so last round as well? How then do you explain your continued existence?

In fact, it seems likely that the number of players leaving 2nd tier alliances is less effected by recruitment from the top alliances, and more by these members wanting to leave. Who then are we to force them to stay? Does this make them any more likely to do so? Or indeed does it only make them more likely to abstain from playing all together?

Further, you seem to insist on seeing the game as two tiers of alliances, however this is hardly accurate. There are top alliances, which challenge for the win most rounds. Then there are 2nd tier alliances, which usually are medium size and have aspirations of becoming better. Then, there is the "3rd tier", or the alliances which are based more on community than on anything else. These tend to be very close to the alliance limit, and have included in the past such alliances as WP(late rounds), ROCK and currently ND. These alliances may often have a solid core of players, and thus may be capable of competing to some extent, but this isn't their actual goal. These are the actual alliances which have tended to train new players in the past, and not the 2nd tier alliances. If indeed some of you wish to become such an alliance, and I guess CT is moving in that direction (3rd biggest tag, lots of recruitment in random gals), then I see no fault in this. However, know that those who are actually hurt by these tag limits are exactly the community/recruiting alliances, and the new players joining the game.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:17   #132
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Look all i am saying is this...
While I disagree with everything that you said following that, I applaud you at least for trying to create a structured argument.

I think you're not really thinking things through properly.

In this day and age being in a tier 1 alliance is not about getting the most people together that can dominate a round (although App did go down that path at one point, they've since dropped that particular tactic), it's about surrounding themselves with people that can play at the same level as each other. It's about individual player ability... and being able to put up with a lot of arrogance, egos and attitudes helps of course!

Tier 1 alliances take players from T2 alliances when the players are good enough to fit in with the playing style of the alliances; not just for the sake of it.

Tier 2 alliances aren't exactly the newbie-training alliances you make them out to be. I really think you've missed a tier or two out. Tier 2 alliances similarly take their recruits from either similar level alliances, or take in T3 level players when they're ready.

I think these days it's the tier 3 alliances that can be categorized as training alliances. Anything below T3 and you're not going to learn anything anyway. When a player has learnt enough about the game from a T3 alliance, they'll be ready to play at T2 level.

What I'm demonstrating above shows the natural career progression of a PA player. That's not to say everyone's going to reach the T1 stage at some point, as a lot of the time people's RL circumstances affect their ability to play more so than any fundemental lack of understanding.

It's also not taking in to consideration the 'individual' factor. You're assuming that everyone wants to be in a T1 alliance, which isn't the case. You're assuming that T1 alliances would mass-recruit, which isn't the case. You're assuming that just because somebody may be good enough for a T1 alliance, they'd automatically get invited, which isn't the case.

Last round, for example. Alliance limit of 100 and the two T1 alliances playing only had 50-60 members. This isn't because they couldn't recruit any more people, this is because they chose to play only with the people they felt were good enough; something which I think Asc has been doing for years now and Apprime too set to be heading down the same track.

So to suggest that T1 alliances would mass-recruit is clearly wrong. Given the relatively few number of people playing it would also be fair to state that if any alliance gives people the motivation required to hit them, then the universe would most definitely gang up on them and ride them into the ground. So even with limitless alliances, you'd be foolish to have too many members. The other side of that coin is that alliances, when too big, can become very difficult to manage and coordinate. Given how little effort people are seemingly willing to put in as it is, I don't forsee anyone actively seeking to take on that burden.

Anyway, I hope this has maybe provided some food for thought for you if nothing else.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:23   #133
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Re: Alliance player limit

I just had to log in and say ... as a theoretical scientist, sun tzu and the like and making my skin crawl. Probably similar RETARDS that almost stopped the development of quantum and relativistic theory at the start of the 20th century, using similarly retarded (but yet seemingly intellectual) points.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:31   #134
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Re: Alliance player limit

To continue of Kennys framework for how alliances recruit, I'd say that the rounds in which you see top tier alliances grow in size are generally rounds when other top tier alliances have ceased to exist.

Examples would include from PIA rnd6.5 when the opposition failed to really show up, Dragons was flooded with applicants. One round that Ministry did not play as an alliance those of them who did play played in Dragons as a wing.

From rnd34 to 35 App grew by 11 players, largely since Asc did not play and many of their members joined App. Even so, I'm fairly certain that App's growth was lesser than the amount of Asc players joining them, meaning they had a negative growth when these Asc players left, which is also evident in them starting this round with only 46 players, regardless of a tag limit of 100 and 65 counting.

I believe this was also what happened to Asc rnd30/31 when the alliance grew bloated. It was due to other top tier alliances failing and their members leaving, applying to Asc. Most tellingly, this provoked a reactionary purge of Asc towards the end of rnd31, from the height of 120 players down to 50 during rnd32.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:33   #135
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Re: Alliance player limit

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I just had to log in and say ... as a theoretical scientist, sun tzu and the like and making my skin crawl. Probably similar RETARDS that almost stopped the development of quantum and relativistic theory at the start of the 20th century, using similarly retarded (but yet seemingly intellectual) points.
Appeal to authority fallacy. Now back it up. "Proof", as scientist call it.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:37   #136
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Re: Alliance player limit

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I just had to log in and say ... as a theoretical scientist, sun tzu and the like and making my skin crawl. Probably similar RETARDS that almost stopped the development of quantum and relativistic theory at the start of the 20th century, using similarly retarded (but yet seemingly intellectual) points.
Did the other theoretical scientists working on the development of quantum and relativistic theory also advocate for uncapped alliances?

Also, I too am a theoretical scientist. I theorize about science all the time. You don't see me using that to try and add any weight to my attempts at calling other people names.

Also, for a hypothetical scientist your use of grammar is appauling. It's just as well science doesn't depend on being able to communicate your ideas to other people!

Oh, wait...
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:44   #137
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Re: Alliance player limit

btw
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:48   #138
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Appeal to authority fallacy. Now back it up. "Proof", as scientist call it.
No. I could spend my entire life arguing with you on this, just as Niels Bohr and albert einstein argued about old & new physics till they were both blue in the face. Both had valid wonderful points, both very intellectual. Nothing in those arguments constituted as "proof" alas - experiments did though.

"yes, but at least they both had intellectual arguments about it" - true, but that doesn't mean if Einstein started arguing about quantum theory with a retard (with shit points), that suddenly Einstein would be right.

Just as all mz's data backs up your idealogy, 99.999999% of data at the start of the 20th century would say quantum theory was wrong.

Gotta love experiments. If pa was working spectacularly well, with no problems - no need for change. Similarly no need for quantum theory when nothing needed fixing. There are problems in the game though, and while the people arguing against you aren't putting in particularly eloquent arguments, you and the like ridiculing them at every chance is irritating. Especially when you start talking about theoretical science.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:48   #139
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I think the theme of this thread is making a point and explaining its relevence, mz. I know it's quicker to show examples of what you mean, but without context they're left open to misinterpretation.

Given your audience, I'd suggest that the probability for misinterpretation was quite high.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:50   #140
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Re: Alliance player limit

Oh, no, I wasn't making a point.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:51   #141
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
Gotta love experiments. If pa was working spectacularly well, with no problems - no need for change. Similarly no need for quantum theory when nothing needed fixing.
Wait, what?
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Unread 16 May 2010, 18:52   #142
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Re: Alliance player limit

Ah, ok

I mistook your use of 'btw' to be ironic, so my bad!
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:01   #143
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Re: Alliance player limit

<Johan> who's that biggayal character anyway and what's his supposed field of study?

<Kenny> BigGayAl was just served.

<Johan> well, to be honest, you can perfectly well be a great scientist and hardly be able to communicate

<Johan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cavendish

Cavendish was silent and solitary, and was viewed as somewhat eccentric by many. He only spoke to his female servants by notes and formed no close personal relationships outside his family. By one account, Cavendish had a back staircase added to his house in order to avoid encountering his housekeeper because he was especially shy of women.

His only social outlet was the Royal Society Club, whose members dined together before weekly meetings. Cavendish seldom missed these meetings, and was profoundly respected by his contemporaries. However his shyness made those who "sought his views... speak as if into vacancy. If their remarks were...worthy, they might receive a mumbled reply."

Because of his asocial and secretive behaviour, Cavendish often avoided publishing his work, and much of his findings were not even told to his fellow scientists. In the late nineteenth century, long after his death, James Clerk Maxwell looked through Cavendish's papers and found things for which others had been given credit.

Examples of what was included in Cavendish's discoveries or anticipations were Richter's Law of Reciprocal Proportions, Ohm's Law, Dalton's Law of Partial Pressures, principles of electrical conductivity (including Coulomb's Law), and Charles's Law of Gases.

<Kenny> But the science he was referring to was one that involved multiple people exchanging ideas. He also went on to say that some people's input into procedings directly affected the rate at which the science progressed.

<Kenny> I'd say that in that particular case, communicating ideas clearly was somewhat essential.

<Johan> he does realize that those retards he's alluding to include Einstein, right?

<Johan> since Einstein was one of the foremost opponents of quantum theory

<Kenny> you should mention that.

<Kenny> If you don't, I will - and I do hate stepping on your toes.

<Johan> and instead tried to figure out means to expand general relativity without having to resort to quantum mechanics, which caused Einstein to largely be left on the fringes of the field towards the end of his life even as he continued to be the public mascot for science

<Johan> on the one hand, he forced quantum theorists to establish more rigorous proofs, which ended up convincing everyone as not even the great Einstein could overturn them, and on the other Einsteins work has later been reappropriated and been useful for others continued study in other related fields

<Johan> among them his "greatest blunder", the cosmological constant, which he used to prop up a stable universe is now used to explain a expanding universe

<Kenny> BGA came back with an Einstein reference.

<Kenny> Talk about opening doors...

<Johan> wow, he's just flat out wrong

<Johan> yes, the data on the large end back up Einstein, and did not require quantum mechanics

<Johan> but the data on the miniscule had clear discrepancies, which required explanation

<Kenny> dude dont have the convo with me lol

<Kenny> argue with him

<Johan> otherwise Einstein would not even have argued against Bohr, he'd have just stated "QED BITCH!" and continued ****ing science-groupies

<Johan> well ****ing paste this conversation to the thread or something then fs

<Kenny> you do it, it's your argument :|

And thus...

[Edit: Only just realized my failure at formatting made it look like our roles in the conversation was reversed. So yeah, It was me ranting to Kenny, not the other way around.]
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:04   #144
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Re: Alliance player limit

Well i am willing to admit this 100 tag limit had an effect on ODDR last round nobody in the hc team could be enthusiastic about.
And it has forced us to look at the game differently and set other goals for us the coming rounds.

I'll know after r37 if its a good or bad thing. Meanwhile still not a fan of the 100 tag limit and doubt I'll ever become one.
( with this small player base)
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:04   #145
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Re: Alliance player limit

Tzu, that totally confused me until halfway through the post. :|
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:07   #146
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Tzu, that totally confused me until halfway through the post. :|
Well, that's because the first half is just me showing off, clearly. Making esoteric quips to each other is half of all my and Kenny's discussions anyway.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:12   #147
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Re: Alliance player limit

Ahhh Einstein lovers

Ok, lets drop QM and look at relativity. Einstein's theory was shunned, both at the theoretical level and because NOTHING backed it up in experiment. Or very nearly nothing if something did - I'm not a fan of relativity, bores me to death - so not 100% sure on my history here.

Einstein was totally ignored, and I dare say ridiculed about his hypothesis. I'll be amazed if he wasn't - as nice as the maths & hypothesis was, it was a little weird at the time.

Then was it 1919? or sometime, there was a solar eclipse - Einstein proven right, relativity replaces (or supersedes) the existing laws of physics.

Better analogy for you?

If there was never an experiment done to confirm relativity (nothing that had been observed uptil then suggested the current laws of physics were flawed), then relativity would be nothing more than an obscure theory - probably in a few textbooks here and there because of the nice maths used.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:15   #148
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Re: Alliance player limit

Lazy ass formatting from tzu.

HeimdallR I hope you and ODDR do find a way of enjoying the round. I must say though that I too am not fond of a round that says that 1 in every 2 members of a 100 man tag doesn't count towards score. No limits, 100% contribution is the way forward.

PA shouldn't be about winning, it should be about the competition. It should be to do as well as you possibly can. Sure, there are some alliances that say "1st or bust" but then they're the people who should realistically be competing for 1st anyway.

ODDR should be looking to do as well as you can within the set parameters. In your current state, you're never going to win. You're not skilled or active enough as a whole to set 'winning' as a goal. That's not an insult, more a realistic observation.

That's all anyone can do - do as best as they can and take every ounce of success as a victory that should be proportionately celebrated accordingly. There's nothing to say that there are any conditions under which you cannot acheive your goals, so long as the goals you set are realistic and relevent to the context in which they're set.
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:19   #149
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by BigGayAl View Post
Ahhh Einstein lovers

Ok, lets drop QM and look at relativity. Einstein's theory was shunned, both at the theoretical level and because NOTHING backed it up in experiment. Or very nearly nothing if something did - I'm not a fan of relativity, bores me to death - so not 100% sure on my history here.

Einstein was totally ignored, and I dare say ridiculed about his hypothesis. I'll be amazed if he wasn't - as nice as the maths & hypothesis was, it was a little weird at the time.

Then was it 1919? or sometime, there was a solar eclipse - Einstein proven right, relativity replaces (or supersedes) the existing laws of physics.

Better analogy for you?

If there was never an experiment done to confirm relativity (nothing that had been observed uptil then suggested the current laws of physics were flawed), then relativity would be nothing more than an obscure theory - probably in a few textbooks here and there because of the nice maths used.
By theoretical scientist you mean someone doing physics in their final year in school right? Because otherwise I'm pretty much in despair over the state of university education in whatever country you come from
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Unread 16 May 2010, 19:23   #150
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Re: Alliance player limit

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By theoretical scientist you mean someone doing physics in their final year in school right? Because otherwise I'm pretty much in despair over the state of university education in whatever country you come from
I agree, I'm in constant despair over the state of British universities.
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