R45 Stats Discussion

[Mistwraith]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Ok, Appoco has removed the erroneous ship. Stats are now FINAL.

Edit: Switched the Targeting on the Clipper to De/Fr.
Switched to be slightly weaken De by giving cr/bs a T1 De kill/steal ship.

[Mzyxptlk]

17 Dec 2011, 23:45:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

I am going to say the stats are Finished.

20 Dec 2011, 00:43:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Stats are now final.

24 Dec 2011, 02:08:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

I am Dubbing these Final

24 Dec 2011, 20:00:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Stats are now FINAL.

[Killeah]

haha good point - still waiting for that official announcement post - by PA crew.

until then I refer to the above quoted

[Kaiba]

Well supposedly Influence reckons there is multiple sets of stats floating around so who knows what the hell is going on.

Yet again we get within a week of a round starting and no one seems to have a clue what is going on!!!

[Tiamat101]

I can no longer change the stats, so as far as I am concerned they are final.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Well supposedly Influence reckons there is multiple sets of stats floating around so who knows what the hell is going on.

Yet again we get within a week of a round starting and no one seems to have a clue what is going on!!!

we are not within a week of the round starting.

[Tiamat101]

Well with stats being final, and races being slightly changed. I take this time to say to everyone Good luck, and that I will likely not being playing this round.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Well with stats being final, and races being slightly changed. I take this time to say to everyone Good luck, and that I will likely not being playing this round.

a ringing endorsement for the stats. the person that created them is not even gonna play!

LMFAO.

[Tiamat101]

So now that the round has been going for about 200 ticks and I wanted to find out how everyone is finding the stats?

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

So now that the round has been going for about 200 ticks and I wanted to find out how everyone is finding the stats?

Hornets Emp resistance is unbalanced

[Tiamat101]

Not really. When you look at it In comparison to roach/tarantula sure. But when you take into account that its just as good as the baliff(etd Bs pod) then it becomes resonable. Your just bitching because it hard to emp an emp fleet.... WELL YES get some ships that deal damage and you'll find that especially cat bs will not cap.

[Patrikc]

So as long as a different ship is just as hard to EMP, it's balanced?

[Killeah]

I guess the buzz word here is - DEFENSIVE stats, allthough it could have been worse

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Not really. When you look at it In comparison to roach/tarantula sure. But when you take into account that its just as good as the baliff(etd Bs pod) then it becomes resonable. Your just bitching because it hard to emp an emp fleet.... WELL YES get some ships that deal damage and you'll find that especially cat bs will not cap.

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=o15mbnzw6skw0nw silly pod amount
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=3khhv263nje7tv9 expected pod amount

[Mzyxptlk]

Gee, who would've thought. A fleet that's 97% frozen doesn't cap many roids! Wow. Crazy.

[zL]

i went cath co is working quite well atm as i have no alliance attacks are harder to land but beetles and vipers make a good team

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

Gee, who would've thought. A fleet that's 97% frozen doesn't cap many roids! Wow. Crazy.

I was pointing out why some caths might have to buy say upto 3k hornet instead of 1k hornet to cap with the emp distribution.

[Mzyxptlk]

And yet those battle reps don't prove jackshit, because that attack is dumb. 2500 extra Widows turn that 97% into 100% (5 ticks worth of income), regardless how many pods you bring.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

And yet those battle reps don't prove jackshit, because that attack is dumb. 2500 extra Widows turn that 97% into 100% (5 ticks worth of income), regardless how many pods you bring.

Its typical defence I have received on waves and why you have to build extra pods to compensate for the emp distribution

-Edit You are neglecting the practicalities of a cath bs fleet

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Paisley

Its typical defence I have received on waves and why you have to build extra pods to compensate for the emp distribution

-Edit You are neglecting the practicalities of a cath bs fleet

I'm not contesting whether or not the Hornet's ER is too high. I don't know. But if you're worried about "practicalities", then you should at least be able to come up with some good examples. Because If your fleet relies on "well, I bet they can only freeze 97% of my fleet", then honestly, I question your strategy.

[Influence]

It's typical defence coz it's the amount you need to cover against you. The fact you still cap some roids shows that the E/R isn't unbalanced at all. Increasing it's E/R would make them overpowered (as you would allways need to stun the whole fleet) while decreasing would make them too weak.

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Not really. When you look at it In comparison to roach/tarantula sure. But when you take into account that its just as good as the baliff(etd Bs pod) then it becomes resonable. Your just bitching because it hard to emp an emp fleet.... WELL YES get some ships that deal damage and you'll find that especially cat bs will not cap.

Actually, the E/R on the baliff is 93 (compared to 92 for the hornet) which actually makes a case for it's imbalance. If you now attack with an etd, the cath is easier to stop with EMP def, while the etd is easier to stop with non-EMP.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

I'm not contesting whether or not the Hornet's ER is too high. I don't know. But if you're worried about "practicalities", then you should at least be able to come up with some good examples. Because If your fleet relies on "well, I bet they can only freeze 97% of my fleet", then honestly, I question your strategy.

The Emp resistance of the Hornet is too low hence the extra pod count
That is my point

Originally Posted by Influence

Actually, the E/R on the baliff is 93 (compared to 92 for the hornet) which actually makes a case for it's imbalance. If you now attack with an etd, the cath is easier to stop with EMP def, while the etd is easier to stop with non-EMP.

Thank you, Some see this some don't

[Paisley]

I'm not going to go down the flaming route (tempting as it is) SD is the 1 part of the forums that should be troll/flame free.

-back to topic

Defensive stats... still with the realm of reasonably balanced (overall)

[Benneh]

These stats are dire.

Horrible to actually play, what interests me is, is Tia actually playing this round or has he avoided his own stats?

[zL]

the stats are not that good good id agree with Benneh

[Monroe]

Paisley, thank you for demonstrating the attitude that we try and cultivate on the Strategy Forum.

Mzyxptlk you are welcome to continue to argue with anyone you wish on this thread, but please do so in a way that respects other people's right to disagree with your opinion.

[Tiamat101]

I am playing this round. The real intersting thing that I've found is that everyone went the same bad strat... for no reason other than people are lazy. Why don't we just remove Fr/de entirely and play with only 2 meta classes. People will only ever play fi/co or cr/bs anyway. Which to me its odd as to why there are so many cath's out there.

Hornet? Really is your issue.... so the fact that its got the highest emp res of the bs? I guess people will find some way to bitch/flame/troll or cry about something.

As for defensive stats..... There is 1 strat that could be seen as defensive and that was fr/de. Bs is 100% offensive it has almost no defensive capabilities. Ter Cr is also offensive, so is xan fi/cat co. The 2 steal fi/co's are kinda defensive but will switch once they get some good steals. So I want to ask you.... How are these stats defensive?

[Monroe]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

I am playing this round. The real intersting thing that I've found is that everyone went the same bad strat... for no reason other than people are lazy. Why don't we just remove Fr/de entirely and play with only 2 meta classes. People will only ever play fi/co or cr/bs anyway. Which to me its odd as to why there are so many cath's out there.

Hornet? Really is your issue.... so the fact that its got the highest emp res of the bs? I guess people will find some way to bitch/flame/troll or cry about something.

As for defensive stats..... There is 1 strat that could be seen as defensive and that was fr/de. Bs is 100% offensive it has almost no defensive capabilities. Ter Cr is also offensive, so is xan fi/cat co. The 2 steal fi/co's are kinda defensive but will switch once they get some good steals. So I want to ask you.... How are these stats defensive?

I don't know why you think everyone went FI/CO or CR/BS, I know plenty of people that went FR or DE (me being one of them), and they seem to be doing fine.

As for how these stats are defensive.... they didn't give races glaring holes, and when you don't do that what happens is the bigger players can build up enough value to be basically impossible to solo. In offensive stats only the very biggest planets require a team up to hit them.

[Tiamat101]

When the top 5 alliances all Go fi/co and cr/bs then the round is fi/co cr/bs. I know that some of the smaller alliances went fr/de strats, but they have a much smaller political agenda, and I think its great that there are still some people that are willing to put the time into playing the fr/de route.

As for defensive.... Emp can no be defensive when all you need is more flack then there fleet..... Etd/cath are roided to god and back by any fr//de because its only emp and those planets will be 100% fr/de value compared to the cath/etd which will either be 60%bs and 40% co or 60% co and 40% fr/de.

And EVERY race has solo options i made sure i put those into the stats. The fact that there is a overwhelming number of caths makes me scratch my head.

[Monroe]

Tiamat101, first off the top 5 alliances did not all go FI/CO and CR/BS, I can't speak for the other 4 top alliances, but CT has plenty of FR/DE fleets. The way we looked at the stats was that each class option has strengths and weaknesses, so we allowed them all (though we discouraged CR/BS).

Your mistake was to assume that giving every race a single solo option is sufficient to make the stats attack oriented. When I did the stats (and I am a very attack oriented stats maker) I tried to make it so every race had a viable attack strategy against every other race. This meant that based on fleet composition choices made by a player playing any race they could hit any other race of their choosing, without requiring a team up.

It is debatable how well I achieved this, but if anyone can remember r21 and r22 when I did stats, they were definitely attack oriented.

[Mzyxptlk]

In fairness, that's a lot easier to do with single targetting stats than multi.

[Monroe]

Granted Mzyxptlk, but this is also why I prefer ST to MT stats as they tend to be much more attack oriented. Landing attacks is a major part of what keeps people engaged in PA, constantly attacking and never landing gets boring and people tend to stop trying.

[Mzyxptlk]

Please call me mz.

[Tiamat101]

I agree ST stats are by nature going to be more attack oriented, but i think i did a pretty good job about making these stats good and balanced with both defensive and offensive options. Then again I made them and i have a pretty high ego...

And I'm happy to see that someone(Alliance) came to the correct decision about composition. A more balanced set up is better than a focused one in this setting.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

I agree ST stats are by nature going to be more attack oriented, but i think i did a pretty good job about making these stats good and balanced with both defensive and offensive options.

Alot of folk including myself disagree with that assessment

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Then again I made them and i have a pretty high ego...

That we can agree on

I am making no further comment on this particular thread.

[Killeah]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

When the top 5 alliances all Go fi/co and cr/bs then the round is fi/co cr/bs. I know that some of the smaller alliances went fr/de strats, but they have a much smaller political agenda, and I think its great that there are still some people that are willing to put the time into playing the fr/de route.

this isn´t about politics but stats - and stats only

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

As for defensive.... Emp can no be defensive when all you need is more flack then there fleet..... Etd/cath are roided to god and back by any fr//de because its only emp and those planets will be 100% fr/de value compared to the cath/etd which will either be 60%bs and 40% co or 60% co and 40% fr/de.

stat makers shouldn´t dwell on what ppl pick for class, but make any class attack oriented. we already discussed the fr/de issue - ppl going fr/de will have 50% or more fleet out on attack also. so same deal as fi/co - cr/bs

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

And EVERY race has solo options i made sure i put those into the stats. The fact that there is a overwhelming number of caths makes me scratch my head.

making two options for each class is prolly why ppl went cath - as you have 4 options instead of 2. due to the nature of emp

[Killeah]

Originally Posted by Monroe

I tried to make it so every race had a viable attack strategy against every other race. This meant that based on fleet composition choices made by a player playing any race they could hit any other race of their choosing, without requiring a team up.

It is debatable how well I achieved this, but if anyone can remember r21 and r22 when I did stats, they were definitely attack oriented.

I didn´t play those rounds - but I would like to see a repeat of those stats or something similiar.That might actually lower the cath amount a bit

[Tiamat101]

I intended these stats for variability I didnt want attack stats or defensive stats. I wanted people to be able to chose what they wanted with out being forced into a strat because of universe choices. But in the end it doesn't matter we Honestly should remove fr/de entirely and just play with cr/bs and fi/co. That's all people will play so let it be all there is, and yes im saying Tof/App/Dlr and any ally with under 50 members doesn't count.

[Monroe]

Originally Posted by Killeah

I didn´t play those rounds - but I would like to see a repeat of those stats or something similiar.That might actually lower the cath amount a bit

As I recall at the time my stats were rather controversial, much more so then the current stats, at least in terms of the volume of negativity going on. But if folks would like I might consider revisiting them and give them another go.

[Tiamat101]

I'd also like to say this, If these stats are as defensive as you all are making them out to be then why are there 7 caths in the t10. Cath co/BS is attack oriented those fleets shouldn't be allowed to land. So i say this again, How are these stats too defensive if there can be 7 cath in the top 10.

Could it possibly be that because xvx/fang/ult all went the EXCACT same strat. And that ct/nd have similar race set ups. Maybe its that people are just too stuborn to try something new. Fi/Co is every round, and if its not fi/co then its Cr/Bs; yet its always up to the smaller alliances to do fr/de, so why is this the case?

I will come out and say it, I made etd De the best fleet in these stats and not a single one of the top 3 ally is using them.

[Killeah]

main reason for larger allies not going FR/DE is the fact that you need to go 100% FR/DE value - i.e no uni defships against FI/CO - it requires one viable strategy and that´s 100% fort gals - any ally member outside a fort would be forsaken against FI/CO since no def would ever arrive .

The reason you see caths is the fact that you made those DE so strong, as vipers are the only counter.

regarding the 7 cath in top 10 is excatly a statement that stats are defensive - since cath are the only race in your stats that arent defensive due to emp Eff and init.

Also top players are decided on a lot of factors - not only stats.

Activity - escorts - attack patterns - luck - ally def and politics.

[Monroe]

I agree with Killeah, you cannot look at the top 10, or really even the top 100 to determine stats balance. Both are heavily dictated by the players, not the stats. Meaning the top players always do well regardless of what race they pick. It does say a bit about what the top players think the best race is, but is otherwise not indicative of whether the stats are balanced, or offensive/defensive.

A better metric of the stats balance is the t300 or t500, what is the race mix there. In terms of offensive/defensive it is too early to say definitively, that is really decided in the last couple of weeks, and what you need to look at is the percentage of roids transferring hands, and how often the t100 is getting roided.

[isildurx]

Also, cath is always strong early on.

[Shev]

To a large extent what the strongest race and fleet is is subjective, and you don't exactly have a track record of picking well anyway Tia. Maybe the playerbase is right and you're wrong. Sounds more likely to me.

[Reincarnate]

although i dont like the stats, and am unsure of Tias ability to actually look at stats and read them, i do think DE is the best fleet this round. imo, if one of the top 4 alliances had gone full de + forts i think they would dominate utterly.

[Shev]

It's hard to get proper, competant forts for the number of members involved in 70 person alliances with the current exile system. Certainly there has been a gradual move away from forts over the last couple of rounds.

[Killeah]

Also, going all forts is risky buisness should given alliance face a serious gangbang. PA trackrecord regarding such are not even needed to sumarize. A pure fort ally playing ftw could end up getting raped 1 gal at a time, even with great stats and crossdef.

going 50/50 - fr/de - fi/co could perhaps work, 5-6 forts, rest random.

[Plaguuu]

The reason why the game seem so defensive isnt the stats guys..

Its due to this fact:

Alliance Relations

There are currently no alliances allied to each other.


Usually there are 10-20 public relations already at tick 100ish.
If actually some alliances starts a real war you wouldl see roids swapping quite fast. You will then also see dlr roid average start to become superior.

[Tiamat101]

Or maybe they just arent ready to put them ingame. So they are keeping them behind closed doors. Once they get published ingame then blocks start forming then the round goes to shit and everyone just wants to kill themselves.

[Blue_Esper]

i would have liked to see voyager init 3 and viper init 2