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Unread 6 Apr 2009, 05:42   #151
Light
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
This doesn't address my point at all. Taking actions to reduce the effectiveness of good defence is going to lead to more attacking in successful alliances. More attacking and less defending in successful alliances is going to lead to the diminishment of the inter-personal bonds which constitute an alliance. Take it from someone who won a round by xp whoring, it's a lot more interesting as a game this way.
As i cant really address your point, except for the fact that the current state of PA still favours fence-sitting, noob bashing and war being unprofitable (the majority of the time).

The top 10/20 planets (or so im told, i only know about Elviz/7:3) all have naps with rival alliances, to fence sit to the top. This problem should also be addressed, how can we stop that?

Alliances still fence-sit, as its still more profitable than going to war.

So yes, i agree with you that the game needs things to make war better and profitable.. but that doesnt mean that the salvage needs to do it. You could argue that simply changing the XP formula to heavily benefit hitting top planets/galaxy/alliances would solve the problem? As it would force players fighting for #1 to hit other big players, rather than just keep noob podding.

We both know that the current system hardly favours war and actively encourages noob bashing.. So its hardly a system worth keeping.

Quote:
This isn't true. Even from the most callous of perspectives they could just reintroduce the rules you're saying they've ignored and use them for next round.
The rules they used for elviz/eksero are the rules they've meant to use for all rounds, they simply decided they didnt need proof prior to this incident.

There are no rules to fix the situation now, to prove farming.. you need to prove that the attacking player asked the defending player to move there fleet, (and vice versa for donations). As if you dont prove that, you've got no proof.

Quote:
It's a twenty four hour game that doesn't shut down (except when the servers die for the eighth time that round). This game doesn't need barely active newbies. It needs ways to make barely active players become more active. Features that let some dude rebuild 30% of his fleet as opposed to 15% aren't helpful. Features that means he becomes active enough not to lose that fleet are.
This game needs an influx of new players to survive and yes we need to find ways for them to become active but first we need to find ways to get them to stay.
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Unread 6 Apr 2009, 06:04   #152
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
As i cant really address your point, except for the fact that the current state of PA still favours fence-sitting, noob bashing and war being unprofitable (the majority of the time).

The top 10/20 planets (or so im told, i only know about Elviz/7:3) all have naps with rival alliances, to fence sit to the top. This problem should also be addressed, how can we stop that?
As far as I'm aware none of the ascendancy planets did. As I stated above if you want a top planet my advise is to ensure your alliance wins as quickly as possible and to then go about it.

Quote:
Alliances still fence-sit, as its still more profitable than going to war.

So yes, i agree with you that the game needs things to make war better and profitable.. but that doesnt mean that the salvage needs to do it. You could argue that simply changing the XP formula to heavily benefit hitting top planets/galaxy/alliances would solve the problem? As it would force players fighting for #1 to hit other big players, rather than just keep noob podding.

We both know that the current system hardly favours war and actively encourages noob bashing.. So its hardly a system worth keeping.
Unless we're going to have a radical redesign of the game it's probably worth keeping the features of the system that make it worth playing.



Quote:
The rules they used for elviz/eksero are the rules they've meant to use for all rounds, they simply decided they didnt need proof prior to this incident.

There are no rules to fix the situation now, to prove farming.. you need to prove that the attacking player asked the defending player to move there fleet, (and vice versa for donations). As if you dont prove that, you've got no proof.
It's not a court of law and it doesn't require incontrovertible proof. Next round, in all likelihood, we'll have the same set of rules and guess what, it probably won't be the end of the world. And if people go out and perform retardedly over the top donations they'll just get closed. Because although you or I might think the multihunters make bad decisions sometimes they're not just going to sit there and accept people doing retarded things because they feel they've found a way to circumvent the rules.

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This game needs an influx of new players to survive and yes we need to find ways for them to become active but first we need to find ways to get them to stay.
Yeah. This isn't going to be rebuilding 30% of their fleet as opposed to 15% though.
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Unread 6 Apr 2009, 10:10   #153
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I forgot that rule, If two people cheat within 2days of each other, you cannot close one account without closing the other? What the hell does Elviz's case have to do with Eksero's? They are two seperate cases, you're arguing that they couldnt close elviz without closing eksero? but why? The obvious donations on elviz were proved to the same standard which was required prior to the incident, so he should of been closed.. Its just they listened to arguments like your's and said 'you cant punish elviz for cheating, even though he got caught.. cuz you cant prove or close eksero'.
This way, at the end of the round I could go and get anyone I wanted to closed by crashing my fleet on them. It wouldn't have mattered anyway as my alliance had already won so I didn't really have much to care about. Closing top planets for people crashing on them on the last day is a little too far. Planets were closed for people "crashing" on them earlier in the round when there was evidence that it wasn't just a random person deciding to crash their fleet (not many people do this in the middle of the round, and the only case of this I can remember during the round was Rinoa gettting a crash from some guy who had defended him 3 days earlier).

What if eksero was actually secretly best friends with a chunk of hirr, and thus convinced them to lemming run on him?! This holds as much water as your "elviz cheated" accusations (yes, elviz is a cheating **** and I have no doubt that he asked people to crash on him but none of the donations should have counted in the first place)
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Unread 6 Apr 2009, 15:20   #154
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by Light View Post

The top 10/20 planets (or so im told, i only know about Elviz/7:3) all have naps with rival alliances, to fence sit to the top. This problem should also be addressed, how can we stop that?
Not sure who gives you this kind of info, maybe the same dude that told you tobbe crashed on elviz? (which was totally impossible since they were in gal) In any case, omen giving elviz a pnap was just better for everyone as the omen in that gal would have defended him for sure and caused all sorts of drama in the alliance.

Other planets with pnaps? A few ct planets had omen pnaps, which says more about ct than about the state of the game. Tbh I think the pnap trend is dieing, with everything being focused on alliance rankings its not an option for most players anymore. I'd love another example of someone in the top10/20 who had significant pnap though Just so I can laugh at them for being shit.
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Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 6 Apr 2009, 19:42   #155
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Not sure who gives you this kind of info, maybe the same dude that told you tobbe crashed on elviz? (which was totally impossible since they were in gal)
I lolled pretty hard when i realized i had "crashed" my fleet in attack to donate salvage on elviz !
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 05:14   #156
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
As far as I'm aware none of the ascendancy planets did. As I stated above if you want a top planet my advise is to ensure your alliance wins as quickly as possible and to then go about it.
In Omen, i dont know any other planets other than elviz. The only other pnap i remember was Henrik when he was in CT.


Quote:
Unless we're going to have a radical redesign of the game it's probably worth keeping the features of the system that make it worth playing.
Its not really a radical redesign, to just change the XP formula to include galaxys/alliance and stack it so the reward for hitting a top planet in a top galaxy in a top alliance is enough to justify doing it. At the moment, it takes alot of your alliance launching on that planet just to even get a chance at landing, the game should reflect that and reward it if you manage it.

The best way to get new players to stay, is to make active players want to attack other attack players (for Score gain).. fixing the problem of n00b bashing and also promoting war at the same time. The current situation is that you'll get the same reward hitting a 500 roid planet in a crap galaxy in no alliance, than you would if you hit a 500 roid planet in the #1 galaxy and the #1 alliance.

On your point, it would also make war profitable.. As you'd be gaining less roids (like it is now) if you're at war, but you'd be gaining score from it (unless you just go to war with a low-ranked alliance).

Quote:
It's not a court of law and it doesn't require incontrovertible proof. Next round, in all likelihood, we'll have the same set of rules and guess what, it probably won't be the end of the world. And if people go out and perform retardedly over the top donations they'll just get closed. Because although you or I might think the multihunters make bad decisions sometimes they're not just going to sit there and accept people doing retarded things because they feel they've found a way to circumvent the rules.
but isnt your last sentance, exactly what this did at the end of this round? and if nothing changes, cant the exactly same thing happen next round? The rules they followed at the end of this round, were the same rules they've always been following, its just come to light that they cant actual prove it (and all previous closures have been wrong).

Quote:
Yeah. This isn't going to be rebuilding 30% of their fleet as opposed to 15% though.
Thats why i said coupled with the XP change, top players wanting to hit other top players, lowing the amount of noobie bashing and then for the salvage formula.. If you can no longer make a profit from it, you could tweak the formula slightly higher.. Could even make it 50% for the defending planet and 30% for the defending fleets, so that inactives would get the 50% salvage when bashed while offline.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 06:58   #157
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

Things I learned this round: high salvage is a bad idea
Things Light learned this round:
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 09:27   #158
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Things I learned this round: high salvage is a bad idea
Things Light learned this round:
Ty for that informative post, clearly debating my points and suggestions while also including your own suggestions on what needs to be done and changed.

Its strange that you mention high salvage, as actually my suggestion would of resulted in lower amount of resources gained from salvage (as no attacking ships count towards it anymore) while also keeping the salvage % in place to allow new players/inactives to rebuild after being bashed.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 10:08   #159
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
In Omen, i dont know any other planets other than elviz. The only other pnap i remember was Henrik when he was in CT.
I don't think there were that many.

Quote:
Its not really a radical redesign, to just change the XP formula to include galaxys/alliance and stack it so the reward for hitting a top planet in a top galaxy in a top alliance is enough to justify doing it.
Yes it is. It'd be the most radical redesign of the scoregain formula since xp was actually introduced.

Quote:
but isnt your last sentance, exactly what this did at the end of this round? and if nothing changes, cant the exactly same thing happen next round? The rules they followed at the end of this round, were the same rules they've always been following, its just come to light that they cant actual prove it (and all previous closures have been wrong).
As I said, they'll just decide they don't need incontrovertible proof. And yeah it pretty much was. Surprised it stood personally. I doubt it will if it starts happening often.

Quote:
Thats why i said coupled with the XP change, top players wanting to hit other top players, lowing the amount of noobie bashing and then for the salvage formula.. If you can no longer make a profit from it, you could tweak the formula slightly higher.. Could even make it 50% for the defending planet and 30% for the defending fleets, so that inactives would get the 50% salvage when bashed while offline.
New players don't care about formulae. You could probably let some of them rebuild 100% but as long as they saw their fleet die they'd probably go inactive. New players are attracted by slick surface features and cool things they get to do immediately which seem to have an actual impact ingame.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 12:18   #160
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Its strange that you mention high salvage, as actually my suggestion would of resulted in lower amount of resources gained from salvage (as no attacking ships count towards it anymore) while also keeping the salvage % in place to allow new players/inactives to rebuild after being bashed.
Why don't we make a new race that gives you xp for cuddling the attackers ships?

A lot of people defend because they don't want to see their friends/gal mates/ally mates lose ships but let's not kid ourselves, people will also defend for the salvage gains. I am totally in favour of reducing the salvage % but there needs to be an incentive to "kill some stuff".

You only gain from losing your own ships doesn't kinda have the same attraction as gaining from your losses and getting to smash stuff up and gaining too does.

My personal opininon but then again, maybe i'm just greedy.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 12:26   #161
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

The incentive of killing ships is killing ships.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 12:33   #162
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

http://game.planetarion.com/show_new...hffnpzrz38lc7t

And to let the other person know how truelly spitefull you are
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 13:22   #163
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

Personally as a zik fan, and a hardcore player myself, I d wish the following.

Free steals ( yes good ol times! )
as high salvage as possible to gain from idiots attacking me, a far superior player!
I do however realise that this isnt good for the game. hehe. I planned to attack elviz on friday night, and crash to give him #1. but I was too drunk. Thank god,my dear friend foxman did the job for me, and gave elviz, our beloved fair playing friend another win <3

its just too easy to abuse. Free steals - sick salvage gains.
I think Light got a point when she says salvage should be removed.

We have to remember that salvage never originally was a part of Planetarion.... Free steals has been removed twice before because it was abused. JUST like salvage has been abused, and maybe should be removed now, or atleast MASSIVELY reduced.

What idiot thought raising the salvage to this limidt was a good idea preround?
Who thought changing the formula ( without really explaining the changes or announce it being changed ) was a good idea?
Its so complex atm, thats its close to impossible to know the salvage before it actually ticks.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 15:10   #164
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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What idiot thought raising the salvage to this limidt was a good idea preround?
Who thought changing the formula ( without really explaining the changes or announce it being changed ) was a good idea?
This is worth bringing up because so many people have talked about it. Salvage has been like this since round 24. It was not changed for this round. That's why it wasn't announced anywhere.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 15:20   #165
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
This is worth bringing up because so many people have talked about it. Salvage has been like this since round 24. It was not changed for this round. That's why it wasn't announced anywhere.
are u serious? I was told by staff, that there was a change in salvage calculation now based on planet score and attackers score.
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 15:28   #166
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
are u serious? I was told by staff, that there was a change in salvage calculation now based on planet score and attackers score.
<Cin[Away]> by the looks of things, the formula using average top 20 score etc seems to have gotten added when appoco recoded the combat engine for r24

To confirm this I just checked the changelog at http://game.planetarion.com/manual.php?page=36

Round 24 Changes:
-Bravery factor in XP formula now: (min(2,target_planet_score/your_planet_score) -0.2) * (min(2,target_planet_value/your_planet_value) - 0.1)
-All defensive salvage now goes to the fleet that lost the ships
-Salavage is also increased by a factor of 50%*(1-your_score/(average_top_20_planet_score)), which cannot be negative.


Whoever you talked to was slightly misinformed (I feel I use the word retarded too much these days) it seems!



Edit: What, attacker's score? There's nothing to do with that in this, or any formula at all?
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 15:42   #167
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
<Cin[Away]> by the looks of things, the formula using average top 20 score etc seems to have gotten added when appoco recoded the combat engine for r24

To confirm this I just checked the changelog at http://game.planetarion.com/manual.php?page=36

Round 24 Changes:
-Bravery factor in XP formula now: (min(2,target_planet_score/your_planet_score) -0.2) * (min(2,target_planet_value/your_planet_value) - 0.1)
-All defensive salvage now goes to the fleet that lost the ships
-Salavage is also increased by a factor of 50%*(1-your_score/(average_top_20_planet_score)), which cannot be negative.


Whoever you talked to was slightly misinformed (I feel I use the word retarded too much these days) it seems!



Edit: What, attacker's score? There's nothing to do with that in this, or any formula at all?
amazing shit man. then I have made a fool out of myself! alright

I really felt that salvage was V high this round, more so than the last 5-6 rounds. did I just care more this round?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 15:46   #168
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

Yes, yes you did. The number of ziks/feud planets we had probably contributed to making it look higher but it was exactly the same formula as it's been since then.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 15:46   #169
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

as a zik i like the salvage formula , its one of the few benefits of play zik.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 15:51   #170
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Yes, yes you did. The number of ziks/feud planets we had probably contributed to making it look higher but it was exactly the same formula as it's been since then.
Atleast I admit when I make a fool out of myself!

But, this was something I looked at more when it came to covering our own incs also tbh. even without feud. I cant recall it being that easy.
might be with some certain combos for def this round which was just crazy.

harpies / broads / ghosts - etc!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 15:58   #171
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

It's probably because people were using calcs with the actual salvage formula this round as opposed to thrud's. Also if you were using the ingame calc and didn't enter a planet score value it calced for the max possible salvage gain (so for a top twenty planet you need to reduce the salvage resources by a third) which probably made incs look more covered than they were.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 16:17   #172
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

ye, the ingame bcalc is the best feature added to the game for years.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 16:50   #173
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Re: Congratulations Ascendancy

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I don't think there were that many.
I'm not sure, was just told multiple times whenever i mentioned elviz not deserving #1 spot throughout the round as he pnap'd to get there. The usual responce was always 'the majority of the top 10/20 has a pnap with someone' and i could never say they didnt.. as i simply did not know. Thats why i listed the ones that i do know of.. Its 4-5 planets in the top 15ish that i know.

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Yes it is. It'd be the most radical redesign of the scoregain formula since xp was actually introduced.
its subjective but either way.. Just bcus its a radical redesign isnt a reason not to do it, especially if it benefits the game by promoting war and rewarding those that dont go for the easy roids (Also lowing the amount of hostiles the lowbies get).

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As I said, they'll just decide they don't need incontrovertible proof. And yeah it pretty much was. Surprised it stood personally. I doubt it will if it starts happening often.
So its just more inconsistencys in the MultiHunter team, if they no longer need to prove the defending planet asked the attacking planet for the donation.. What other proof is there for donations? If you've been friends with someone at some point in PA history, thats a reason for closure?

As if nothing really changes, we're likely to see the same situation happen again next round for the top spot. I know if someone i like is 2nd, i may consider hitting him for #1.

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New players don't care about formulae. You could probably let some of them rebuild 100% but as long as they saw their fleet die they'd probably go inactive. New players are attracted by slick surface features and cool things they get to do immediately which seem to have an actual impact ingame.
Its not the formulae that helps them, i agree they dont care. However, what that formulae results in does have a direct impact. If they can rebuild the majority of there fleet, they are more likely to stay (however, i will agree with you.. this wouldnt be there only reason ).


but were going alittle off-topic, as ultimatly i dont really care about changing the XP Formula, it was just a suggestion to counteract your arguments. I just want the salvage formula altered to stop these donations from happening again (while also maintaining as high % as possible for new players/inactives to rebuild after being bashed).
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