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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 13:44   #151
Thatcher
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Re: hirr politics

seems like only solution is a rollback

lets do it!
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 13:53   #152
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
There's a very clear difference between the hirr attack on eksero and the solo donations to elviz. According to the rules:

3) Farming
- Ship "suiciding" will cause the beneficiary planet to be adjusted to the state it was in before the suicidal attack. An attack will be deemed a suicide if there is no realistic chance at the time of launch to gain anything, whether ships, score or experience, from landing the attack. These will be judged on a case by case basis, and human error will be taken into account, but unless sufficient reason is given, the suiciding planet will be closed.

In the case of hirr attacking eksero, at the time of launch there was a chance they could land in a way that would be beneficial to them. On the other hand, solo co waves on elviz on his (originally lol) 1mil+ pillagers had no chance whatsoever of doing anything but donating salvage, barring a Gate-esque prelaunch debacle If they'd all launched at the same time and it had required even 1 def fleet to cover I'd say different, but all salvage from those solo fleets should be removed according to what the rules state.

There is a clear paradox here which makes your argument that 'there is a clear chance of landing' rather void. Although it may appear that way at first, the objective of the hirr lemming run is that 'there is no ship returning, i.e. all ships killed.' Ask any hirr-er, that would be their best lemming run ever. This is in direct contradiction with having a chance to land for gain. (Although 'gain' could also be a good laugh, I think we are talking about score/roid/value/damage gain here)
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 13:55   #153
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Re: hirr politics

I don't see the problem, really. The game mechanics allow this outcome so it is perfectly valid. I am a bit astonished to actually see people in my alliance crying about that, when Ascendancy has always advocated abusing game mechanics to the maximum profit.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 13:57   #154
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
I don't see the problem, really. The game mechanics allow this outcome so it is perfectly valid. I am a bit astonished to actually see people in my alliance crying about that, when Ascendancy has always advocated abusing game mechanics to the maximum profit.
Its nothing to do with 'game mechanics', its to do with 'game rules' and they do not allow farming or donations.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:00   #155
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Re: hirr politics

Obviously this has now all gotten completely retarded. I know at least one of elviz's waves required defence last night (as we sent def to it), beyond that I genuinely have no idea whether any of the others could have landed for xp, I've just been letting the 1/2 fleet incs on elviz get dealt with by ingal def for the past while. It's probably worth pointing out that eksero has also had a number of 1/2 fleet crashers which he self-covered (news-scan him if you want!) My personal favourite was when I was originally talking to fiery about whether or not the hirr lemming run was an attack with a realistic chance of landing and there was some hirr planet eta 3/4/5 on eksero with his fi/co, fr and bs respectively. Yeah, clearly the intention was a realistic roiding!
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:06   #156
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Obviously this has now all gotten completely retarded. I know at least one of elviz's waves required defence last night (as we sent def to it), beyond that I genuinely have no idea whether any of the others could have landed for xp, I've just been letting the 1/2 fleet incs on elviz get dealt with by ingal def for the past while. It's probably worth pointing out that eksero has also had a number of 1/2 fleet crashers which he self-covered (news-scan him if you want!) My personal favourite was when I was originally talking to fiery about whether or not the hirr lemming run was an attack with a realistic chance of landing and there was some hirr planet eta 3/4/5 on eksero with his fi/co, fr and bs respectively. Yeah, clearly the intention was a realistic roiding!
If your implying that eksero cheated? then arnt you also stating that you definatly believe that elviz has cheated, as some of the suicides on elviz's planet are his long-time friends (who stated multiple times this round they'd never hit elviz and they wanted him to win) like foxman?
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:08   #157
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
If your implying that eksero cheated? then arnt you also stating that you definatly believe that elviz has cheated, as some of the suicides on elviz's planet are his long-time friends (who stated multiple times this round they'd never hit elviz and they wanted him to win) like foxman?
No, I don't think either of them cheated.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:10   #158
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Re: hirr politics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
If your implying that eksero cheated? then arnt you also stating that you definatly believe that elviz has cheated, as some of the suicides on elviz's planet are his long-time friends (who stated multiple times this round they'd never hit elviz and they wanted him to win) like foxman?
Did elviz ask them to launch at him?
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:12   #159
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Zirikk View Post
Did elviz ask them to launch at him?
I dont understand that question, as how could anyone ever prove that he did?

IRC-Logs arnt valid evidence, so even if someone had logs of him asking people to.. It wouldnt prove it.

The closest we can get to that, is that some of the people who launched at him have stated multiple times they'd never hit elviz and that they wanted him to win.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:14   #160
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I dont understand that question, as how could anyone ever prove that he did?

IRC-Logs arnt valid evidence, so even if someone had logs of him asking people to.. It wouldnt prove it.
I'd be fairly confident he didn't. Mainly as a) I only told him things weren't being reversed just before he went to work and b) he wouldn't need to.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:15   #161
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'd be fairly confident he didn't. Mainly as a) I only told him things weren't being reversed just before he went to work and b) he wouldn't need to.
I'd be fairly confident he did, as thats the only way he could win.

but either way, these are only opinions and meaningless.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:16   #162
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Re: hirr politics

He didn't cheat then.
If other people wanted to assist his winning by giving salvage, they are the ones breaking the rules.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:18   #163
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Re: hirr politics

He pulled aswell from me Fuzzy
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:19   #164
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Zirikk View Post
He didn't cheat then.
If other people wanted to assist his winning by giving salvage, they are the ones breaking the rules.
I asked you, how do i prove that elviz asked them?
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:20   #165
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I'd be fairly confident he did, as thats the only way he could win.

but either way, these are only opinions and meaningless.
He doesn't have to ask anyone though. We all knew it. I even ****ing stated it earlier in this thread.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:20   #166
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Re: hirr politics

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I asked you, how do i prove that elviz asked them?
As you said. There is no way. No reason to close him.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:21   #167
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Re: hirr politics

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As you said. There is no way. No reason to close him.
Then close the people who donated to him and remove the salvage from elviz. As intentional donations are against the rules?
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:27   #168
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Re: hirr politics

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Then close the people who donated to him and remove the salvage from elviz. As intentional donations are against the rules?
But are they donations!??!? Maybe they just wanted to lose their fleets!?!?!?! Maybe if they were in hirr and had done this back in 2000 it'd be allowed?!?!?!? Maybe if I keep on doing this someone will understand how hilarious this has all gotten!?!?!?!
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:30   #169
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
He pulled aswell from me Fuzzy
As in he pulled an attack that was covered from you, but not from elviz? or did i totally misunderstand?
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:33   #170
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Re: hirr politics

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Then close the people who donated to him and remove the salvage from elviz. As intentional donations are against the rules?
Then remove the salvage profit also from eksero.


All in all I think that you or remove salvage from everyone who received salvation profit from a suicide in the past days (elviz, cardi, golan, mista, benneh, eksero come to mind now on) or do not remove it at all and let it stay. There is no point in removing it at one planet and not at another.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:34   #171
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Re: hirr politics

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But are they donations!??!? Maybe they just wanted to lose their fleets!?!?!?! Maybe if they were in hirr and had done this back in 2000 it'd be allowed?!?!?!? Maybe if I keep on doing this someone will understand how hilarious this has all gotten!?!?!?!
Its hilarious to you, as you're trying to make the arguments against elviz laughable.. To give Asc the #1 planet.

Its not hilarious to the people who dont want the #1 place to be won by cheating.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:35   #172
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
Then remove the salvage profit also from eksero.


All in all I think that you or remove salvage from everyone who received salvation profit from a suicide in the past days (elviz, cardi, golan, mista, benneh, eksero come to mind now on) or do not remove it at all and let it stay. There is no point in removing it at one planet and not at another.
So in your view, its a case of 'do what you want as long as elviz wins'.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:37   #173
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
So in your view, its a case of 'do what you want as long as elviz wins'.
It is a case of be consistent and not arbritrary

so or remove all salvage of the last days due to suiciding, which would 'hurt' Ascendancy score by I think a good couple of million. Or do not remove salvage at all.
You are right that in both cases elviz would win planet rank, but that is not what I am arguing for.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:39   #174
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Re: hirr politics

If a tree falls in the woods, and noone is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:41   #175
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Its hilarious to you, as you're trying to make the arguments against elviz laughable.. To give Asc the #1 planet.

Its not hilarious to the people who dont want the #1 place to be won by cheating.
They are laughable. The rules are ****ing absurd. I mean let's step back for a second here. Say the attack on eksero was a complete success, as in nothing died for the attackers. Awesome everyone says, it's a genuine attack! But hold on, that's not the point of a lemming run. So what would hirr have done? Gone back again until their ships did get killed (or the round ended first I guess). How is that not a suicidal attack!
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:44   #176
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Re: hirr politics

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They are laughable. The rules are ****ing absurd. I mean let's step back for a second here. Say the attack on eksero was a complete success, as in nothing died for the attackers. Awesome everyone says, it's a genuine attack! But hold on, that's not the point of a lemming run. So what would hirr have done? Gone back again until their ships did get killed (or the round ended first I guess). How is that not a suicidal attack!
but obviously you can see the difference between a 50million value attack and a solo suicidal attack from a long-term friend?
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:46   #177
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
but obviously you can see the difference between a 50million value attack and a solo suicidal attack from a long-term friend?
Sure. Although fuzzy seems to say it wasn't suicidal so I dunno if it had a chance of capping. In my opinion though neither were attacks with a realistic chance of landing.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:46   #178
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Re: hirr politics

why dont we just remove the planet rankings ?
since Im not in them this time ofc
more seriously, Light I dont think anyone in asc apart from elviz is particularly thrilled about elviz winning, nor are we overly concerned about having planet win at all, tis all vanity after all.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:48   #179
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Its nothing to do with 'game mechanics', its to do with 'game rules' and they do not allow farming or donations.
Yeah but I do not see the rule that explicitely says that I may not suicide my fleet somewhere.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 14:52   #180
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Yeah but I do not see the rule that explicitely says that I may not suicide my fleet somewhere.
I think if were going to be literalists with regards to the rules, you certainly have a point. Fortunately tho, the rules are as much unspoken/inferred/interpreted, as they are verbatim. Something worth considering.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 15:20   #181
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Its not hilarious to the people who dont want the #1 place to be won by cheating.
ha. this time 36 hours ago elviz had the round in the bag. only way he lost that position was cause of a freak salvage donation which may or may not be against the rules.

i dont want the #1 place to be won by cheating but i also dont want it to be won by a 3m value salvage donation just over 24 hours before the round ends.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 15:30   #182
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Re: hirr politics

Well, u gotta pick one.....
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Can people please stop pretending they have no chance of winning at tick 300, you just end up looking retarded later.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 15:32   #183
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Re: hirr politics

One would have won if noone got donations or 'cheated'(if thats your opinion) so Ill go for him.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 15:35   #184
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Its hilarious to you, as you're trying to make the arguments against elviz laughable.. To give Asc the #1 planet.

Its not hilarious to the people who dont want the #1 place to be won by cheating.
I won't go as far to call people flat out cheats but there seems to be ill feeling on both sides here and I think both sides are right, hirr knew they weren't going to land it, that's why it's called a lemmingrun. Likewise the small crashers on both planets were never going to land, if you are calling for elviz to be closed i think there's a case to wipe out hirrs land on eskero too.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 15:36   #185
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Re: hirr politics

I'll pick Eksero. He didn't get fleets landing with the intent to donate.
The fleets launched at Elviz are a direct result of him no longer being the top dog. That's a donation in my book, albeit impossible to prove. So technically, they aren't (added so don't break forum rules )

The rules are vague so Elviz will win, but it shows that in any subsequent round, Alliance A can NAP Alliance B until 3 days before the end of the round. Then end NAP and send their fleets in manageable chunks to the Alliance B flagship while claiming : "we hate him now, we want xp, we can land this".

The game itself is a needless waste of time beforehand iunless mechanics and rules get changed for r31.

So remove most of the salvage (keep enough to keep defence useful though, and dont make stealers that steal generate value). Remove hidden production so you can't pretend to be a small fish and ezroid even smaller ones. And rewrite the rules while you're at it. XP seems nice and exploitable as a reason to not-donate, so rethink that mechanic while you're at it :|
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 15:51   #186
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
One would have won if noone got donations or 'cheated'(if thats your opinion) so Ill go for him.
i concur
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 15:56   #187
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Re: hirr politics

There's three things that can happen:
1) Both are allowed to keep their salvage. Outcome: eksero wins.
2) eksero keeps his salvage, elviz does not. Outcome: eksero wins.
3) Both players lose their salvage. Outcome: elviz wins.

A potential fourth option (elviz keeps his salvage, eksero does not) is retarded. hirr's lemming runs are well known and no sane human being could doubt their honest intentions. The same cannot be said of the solo runs on elviz. Note that I am not accusing him of foul play, I am just stating that not everyone is as trusting as I am. As such, option 2 is the one that's most consistent with previous cases, this isn't the first time a top planet loses a bunch of salvage gainedfrom dubious suicides.

In an ideal world, I would prefer option 1, though in the current game setup, it cannot be denied that this will encourage people to attempt to get salvage donations in future rounds, which is a situation that I believe should be avoided. I'd prefer it'd be done through the game mechanics, as opposed to MH action (ineffective and inaccurate) or for example the removal of salvage during the last x ticks of the round (carpet bombing).
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 15:57   #188
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Re: hirr politics

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Remove hidden production so you can't pretend to be a small fish
You do know that they decided on a way to change this for next round more than a week ago?
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:03   #189
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Re: hirr politics

People suicide on the top players at the end of every round, and every round they get stripped from the records. What makes this round different is that a mass attack hit one of them, but it was still nonetheless a suicide - a 45m lemming run is never going to get through on someone with contacts like eksero. The same people arguing that it was launched with the intent of causing carnage and that the ships were never intended to come back are also arguing that it was a viable attack, and the same people arguing that it should stay are also arguing that potentially viable but failed attacks on elviz should be removed because they resulted in salvage donations. No matter what this does to the rules in the future, in this case it is only right and fair to be consistent, and that means either strip all the recent donations or allow them all to stay. It's not about who wins #1 planet, it's about being consistent and fair with interpretation of the rules. By doing anything else, you're giving a single alliance the right to donate salvage to whoever they like just because they've been doing it for years.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:03   #190
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Re: hirr politics

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You do know that they decided on a way to change this for next round more than a week ago?
arnt they just lowering the % salvage gained?
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:08   #191
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Re: hirr politics

no the system of fiddling with different levels of factories is removed
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:34   #192
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Re: hirr politics

Quote:
Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin] View Post
Imo a 45mil val wave at eksero has a chance of a negative impact on his planet.

Numerouse single fleet CO waves on 800k pillagers, on the other hand, cannot.

Edit: Sorry, no longer 800k pilly, appears hes capped some CO.... down to 200k and alot of stolen emp def now
I wonder if you ever saw the calc on eksero? there were basicly little to none anti fr/de in their co fleets, eksero himself had enough fr in prod to flak with and maxcap co with his pillagers, that's without getting def. A suicide doesn't become something else just because its 45 million value compared to 5 mill. If we go back and start jugding what may or may not be a good attack we're on very shaky ground.

Personally I am in favour of what Theam has suggested (pretty sure he stole that idea from me though!), removing all salvage gains in the past 3 days would be the most fair thing to do in this case. If we're looking for future rules, man, if people want to cheat one way or the other they can most likely get away with it, no amount of rules can stop that.

There were plenty of people launching today at elviz that just wanted to lose the ships, quite a few CT planets included.. It's more a sign of the round being that 1 week too long to make people egotrip and either suicide or go crazy about their prank. I'm also sure this would have been less of an issue with no downtime/saturday ending. In any case, the mh's are facing too many dubious salvage cases this round, sucks for the players, sucks for the mh's and tbh sucks for the game that we are ending this way.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:34   #193
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Re: hirr politics

Was this announced on the portal or? (Who reads that thing anyhow)
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:35   #194
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Re: hirr politics

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Originally Posted by Considence View Post
Way to play politics hirr, now everyone knows all you need to do to secure a round win is piss off some hirr hcs along the way and you will be fine.
You don't have to worry about it. hirr isn't playing another round (afaik). We didn't even really have enough players to play this round, and we're losing a bunch now. Many players only played when it was to be the last round. Now even some that were going to return are no longer coming back for another round because of all this drama. The community simply doesn't seem to have a place for them anymore. The few lemmings sticking around will be going off to find new homes, the rest will probably be saying farewell for the final time
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:42   #195
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Re: hirr politics

By removed Londo means made more complicated for no good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cin
The system that is coded, but not used, allows for adding the same way it is now, just that once the order has progressed you can't add a new type to it.
If you have fi/co in the order you can add as much fi/co you want to it through out the whole production period.
If you got cr/bs in the same order you can add as much of that as you like as well, but if you cancel one of them, you can't readd that type.
Nor can you add fr/de to the order if it has progressed.

Non progressed order: Add anything
Progressed order: Add of any type that current exist in the order.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:45   #196
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Re: hirr politics

Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperionHK View Post
You don't have to worry about it. hirr isn't playing another round (afaik). We didn't even really have enough players to play this round, and we're losing a bunch now. Many players only played when it was to be the last round. Now even some that were going to return are no longer coming back for another round because of all this drama. The community simply doesn't seem to have a place for them anymore. The few lemmings sticking around will be going off to find new homes, the rest will probably be saying farewell for the final time
The PA community and the forum community are two different things. You may have cost the forum community's main alliance from finishing with the top planet, so don't let the most vocal whiners make you leave when the majority of PA wubs you!
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:46   #197
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Re: hirr politics

yeh i meant that the fiddle ppl do for hidden is removed not the whole factory system ofc, thanx for the clarification
Asc wubs hirr too... with some reservations!!!
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:47   #198
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Re: hirr politics

Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra View Post
The PA community and the forum community are two different things. You may have cost the forum community's main alliance from finishing with the top planet, so don't let the most vocal whiners make you leave when the majority of PA wubs you!
I still love hirr. Hating on the multihunters as per usual though.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:53   #199
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Re: hirr politics

Has anyone ever been closed for donations btw? as i personally cannot see any legit way to prove that a planet in question asked for the donation.
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Unread 4 Apr 2009, 16:57   #200
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Re: hirr politics

Yes, lots of people. Just not recently for some reason.
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