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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 14:15   #51
notsure
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
tgv will be remembered this round but not as a member of the triad but as fence-sitters who napped the whole universe
If you're taking a shot at the fact we had naps with alliances on both sides of the war - I'd like to point out that our two main naps came into place at the same time - which was before the war started -- and we weren't about to backstab either alliance - just because they chose to be on different sides.

It may be that our nap with vgn cost us a chance at 1st place - but that's the risk you take when you set naps in place.

Win or lose, we chose to play this game without trying to exploit the rules, and without backstabbing those that we had agreements with.

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Last edited by notsure; 9 Aug 2007 at 14:21.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 14:23   #52
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Its hardly turning on partners though. These partnership agreements arent supposed to be things set in stone, they are supposed to be fluid so that once the aim of the partnership is achieved (which I would say you had achieved) then all bets should have been off and it should have been a fight to the finish
There you go again, saying things like "supposed to be" and "should have been". You may want to consider stopping telling people what they should do in PA.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 14:25   #53
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
There you go again, saying things like "supposed to be" and "should have been". You may want to consider stopping telling people what they should do in PA.
You should have a go at me as well then, I've just spent the last six posts telling Kargool that TGV should go for the win.



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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 14:30   #54
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

I'm quite adept at doublethink.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 14:49   #55
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Technically they should do whatever the hell they feel like doing, and for whatever reason, which is kind of the point. I don't have a problem with that at all.

Only problem is that they try to make the whole situation look like something different than it is in reality. I guess they think it'll make them look "better" or something equally silly.

And the reality is that three contenders bashed one outside of the contest (there were never 6 real contenders for the round, be serious guys), one alliance ends up in front, others do not wish to challenge that alliance and try to claim the round for themselves. Simple as that.

What's also ironic is that Kargool as one of the involved HCs started a thread titled "Why the wars between alliances aren't profitable anymore?". Providing TGV had the power to wage a blitz campaign in the right moment, they could've managed their first ever round win - how can it possibly get more profitable than that?
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 15:06   #56
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talin

What's also ironic is that Kargool as one of the involved HCs started a thread titled "Why the wars between alliances aren't profitable anymore?". Providing TGV had the power to wage a blitz campaign in the right moment, they could've managed their first ever round win - how can it possibly get more profitable than that?

It would indeed be profitable, and I am quite confident that we are in a position which would allow us to do such an attempt, however, thats not how I nor TGV conduct themselves towards people that have been helping out and being partners in the round.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 16:56   #57
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
There you go again, saying things like "supposed to be" and "should have been". You may want to consider stopping telling people what they should do in PA.
Except its not just me. What the likes of yourself and Kargool are forgetting is that round after round a large amount of this community, no doubt including Kargool, complained about people fence sitting through the use of naps hence aiding stagnation of the rounds. The rankings are there to discourage round long agreements that do little more than Kingmaking.

Thats the problem with so much of this community, either so many of the community lacks the intelligence to remember anything past a round ago OR they are simply hypocritical fools who moan about things until they are in the same situation when their principles go out of the window.

VGN will be expecting you to turn, as people always say to me it is after all a war game and war is only about winners. Your agreement has acheived what it was intending and no-ones gonna have hard feeling about the two of you going tooth and nail for the last 36 hours or so to see who wins, if anything both alliances will gain alot more respect in the community for doing so as the winner will prove they are the worthy alliance and the loser will atleast be seen to have had a go
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 18:00   #58
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

I merely chose the VGN/TGV issue as an example to point out that you always seem to be trying to tell people how they should act, how Planetarion should be played and that your way of playing is the only 'real' one. You did it with the support planet thing, with the 0 roid cov op planet thing, with Transcendancy, and you do it again now.

Also, I'm neither in VGN nor in TGV, I'm just an innocent bystander.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
You should have a go at me as well then, I've just spent the last six posts telling Kargool that TGV should go for the win.
Allow me to give you a slightly more serious response as well:
What you're doing is pointing out a single decision which in your eyes is the wrong one. You think TGV should break the nap with VGN, because that's the best course of action for them, and indeed the only one that will enable (though not ensure) them to overtake them. What wakey is doing is saying that having a nap that is not beneficial to you is wrong, and that it "should" not be allowed. The difference should be obvious.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 9 Aug 2007 at 18:11.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 20:11   #59
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I merely chose the VGN/TGV issue as an example to point out that you always seem to be trying to tell people how they should act, how Planetarion should be played and that your way of playing is the only 'real' one. You did it with the support planet thing, with the 0 roid cov op planet thing, with Transcendancy, and you do it again now.

Also, I'm neither in VGN nor in TGV, I'm just an innocent bystander.
Yeah because two examples makes that true, one of which (in the cov op case) is nothing short of a piss take that makes no attempt to take this game seriously and only complete idiots can ever think its acceptable that these damaging players to the game as a whole are an asset and not just a cancer on the game that needs rid from this game once and for all

Quote:
Allow me to give you a slightly more serious response as well:
What you're doing is pointing out a single decision which in your eyes is the wrong one. You think TGV should break the nap with VGN, because that's the best course of action for them, and indeed the only one that will enable (though not ensure) them to overtake them. What wakey is doing is saying that having a nap that is not beneficial to you is wrong, and that it "should" not be allowed. The difference should be obvious.
No what you really mean is furball isnt an easy target where as you can attack me and get lost of props from the rest of the community as thats the trendy thing to do. furball has said the exact same thing as me, he has pointed out that the rankings push for a fluid form of politics not the static kingmaking politics of old. This is exactly what I have said, except ive also suggested that its not just the game but the reeducation that some of the community (such as 1up) have done to has added to that. Its what every alliance expects when it enters such agreements in modern PA and the agreement produces the intended goal. If the boot was on the other foot you can guarantee VGN wouldn't hesitate

TBH TGV for kingmaking really deserve to have the 2nd place taken off them by the rest of us mass launching on them as its what such gutless play at the end truly deserves
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 20:26   #60
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Yeah, I got lots of props for stating I disagreed with you, the most important and most hated person in PA history. Get over yourself, Mr. F-Crew HC.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 20:34   #61
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey

TBH TGV for kingmaking really deserve to have the 2nd place taken off them by the rest of us mass launching on them as its what such gutless play at the end truly deserves

So for not backstabbing our allies we deserve the entire universe to launch on us?

Gee, your rethorics are getting smarter and smarter by the day, at the moment i would rate you just below a monkey.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 20:44   #62
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
So for not backstabbing our allies we deserve the entire universe to launch on us?

Gee, your rethorics are getting smarter and smarter by the day, at the moment i would rate you just below a monkey.
No for kingmaking you deserve to have people take a stand. I thought we had got rid of such gutless tactics, tactics which youd be the first to shout about if wasnt TGV
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 20:49   #63
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Yeah because two examples makes that true, one of which (in the cov op case) is nothing short of a piss take that makes no attempt to take this game seriously and only complete idiots can ever think its acceptable that these damaging players to the game as a whole are an asset and not just a cancer on the game that needs rid from this game once and for all
Sure, lets blame the gamer for playing within game limits . Unlike some ppl seem to think, war* games aren't meant to be nice.

Quote:
Except its not just me. What the likes of yourself and Kargool are forgetting is that round after round a large amount of this community, no doubt including Kargool, complained about people fence sitting through the use of naps hence aiding stagnation of the rounds. The rankings are there to discourage round long agreements that do little more than Kingmaking.

Thats the problem with so much of this community, either so many of the community lacks the intelligence to remember anything past a round ago OR they are simply hypocritical fools who moan about things until they are in the same situation when their principles go out of the window.
There is quite a big difference between kingmaking and having some sort of agreement with eachother. Kingmaking would be the sole purpose of enabling the other party to win**, what has happened seems a lot more like a deal to fend off a common enemy and simply respect who ever comes on top in the end. Whether or not such an agreement will be broken by the one not winning all depends on that alliance its confidence and feeling towards ending an agreement for personal gain (and perhaps the affect this would have in future rounds). With all the top alliances exchanging fire, this round hardly came close to fence sitting (apart from individual planets as usual). Sure blocks were formed, but it seems to have worked out well to keep the end interesting -> blocks/naps aren't bad by definition, it only sucks when weeks before the end the winner is known, nothing is happening anymore and we all just have to wait for the round to end.

*i realise this a bold statement with PA, but i guess it somewhat fits in that category.
**ofcourse 1up and eXi both showed that kingmaking is very tricky to pull off.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 21:09   #64
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
TBH TGV for kingmaking really deserve to have the 2nd place taken off them by the rest of us mass launching on them as its what such gutless play at the end truly deserves
Heh, this sounds quite familiar.

On a sidenote, I'm tempted to dig out what Kargool was posting during the certain two rounds when ND and Subh preformed similar acts. I even might put an effort into doing that eventually.

However, I do remember very well what he was saying about R13's NoS "achievement", and what TGV did this round is not far away from that (although admittedly on a smaller scale in a lower profile round).

But as I said, there's no need to push TGV into doing anything, and I do disagree that people should play the way wakey (or anyone else) feels "it's proper". Sure people complain about kingmaking and fencesitting and lots of other things that don't benefit them, but that's mostly in the heat of a moment, and shouldn't really dictate how alliances should behave. If someone quits over something silly as that, he wasn't playing the right game to begin with.

People should play the way they like to play and the way they feel is right. But my point is that they shouldn't bother trying to make their actions and achievements look like something they are not. Kingmaking will always be kingmaking, and fencesitting will always be fencesitting. But there's no need to make a fuss about that.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 21:14   #65
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talin
Heh, this sounds quite familiar.

On a sidenote, I'm tempted to dig out what Kargool was posting during the certain two rounds when ND and Subh preformed similar acts. I even might put an effort into doing that eventually.

However, I do remember very well what he was saying about R13's NoS "achievement", and what TGV did this round is not far away from that (although admittedly on a smaller scale in a lower profile round).

But as I said, there's no need to push TGV into doing anything, and I do disagree that people should play the way wakey (or anyone else) feels "it's proper". Sure people complain about kingmaking and fencesitting and lots of other things that don't benefit them, but that's mostly in the heat of a moment, and shouldn't really dictate how alliances should behave. If someone quits over something silly as that, he wasn't playing the right game to begin with.

People should play the way they like to play and the way they feel is right. But my point is that they shouldn't bother trying to make their actions and achievements look like something they are not. Kingmaking will always be kingmaking, and fencesitting will always be fencesitting. But there's no need to make a fuss about that.
Well, in this case our actions and achievements should point to the facts that we honor the naps and agreements we've made, and if VGN had been in our place we would have hoped that they would have done the same, as Wandows correctly applied, if this had been earlier in the round and we had just handed them the win without doing anything, we might have been called kingmakers, but in this case breaking the nap with VGN just because we wanted to win would have in my eyes been the dishonorable way to end the round for TGV. After all, some people try to play this game and to keep to their promises. If that is something that is frowned upon by the community then so be it. I couldn't care less.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 21:18   #66
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Well, in this case our actions and achievements should point to the facts that we honor the naps and agreements we've made, and if VGN had been in our place we would have hoped that they would have done the same, as Wandows correctly applied, if this had been earlier in the round and we had just handed them the win without doing anything, we might have been called kingmakers, but in this case breaking the nap with VGN just because we wanted to win would have in my eyes been the dishonorable way to end the round for TGV. After all, some people try to play this game and to keep to their promises. If that is something that is frowned upon by the community then so be it. I couldn't care less.
For someone who couldnt care you seemed awfully peeved at me if the insults you sent me via IRC PM are to go by
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 21:23   #67
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

That depends on what kind of deal you made with VGN of course. It would be dishonorable if you agreed to a permanent NAP. It would be normal if you agreed to a temporary NAP to eliminate whoever it is that you wanted to eliminate.

Now, I assume you did the first thing, and now it's too late to change that. In which case it's a slightly less awkward situation, but the question that still remains is why would you want to permanently NAP an alliance which in the tight ranking gaps this round could eventually stand in your way to victory?

Anyhow, I don't think people are trying to push you into war with VGN. The negative reactions were mostly regarding the "Triad won" comment, while everyone is fully aware that such a thing in PAX is simply not applicable.

I personally wish it was (which involves getting rid of ingame alliances and limits), but it isn't. Winner, and consequently losers, of the round are clear and obvious, and only depend on the total alliance score at end of round. But, people seem to want such a format of competition, so...
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 21:25   #68
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Well, in this case our actions and achievements should point to the facts that we honor the naps and agreements we've made, and if VGN had been in our place we would have hoped that they would have done the same
I'm sure they'd play better and they would have broken the nap. But that's the difference between winning alliance and losing alliance.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 21:28   #69
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Given more time, I would consider TGV stupid for not breaking the nap. However, there's a grand total of 2 nights left, which in my opinion makes TGV's decision to stick to the nap and cruise to #2 not nearly as bad as people are trying to make it seem. On the other hand, this is just a browser game, so really, what have you got to lose by going to war for 2 days and seeing if you can get to #1?
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 21:47   #70
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

alliance that dont play for the win kinda self feed into that playing style

in that they wont retain players round after round that want to win.

but hey they didn't break a nap after its was moot and try to win so they have honour still!

p.s. still not to late to play ftw
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 21:52   #71
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talin
But as I said, there's no need to push TGV into doing anything, and I do disagree that people should play the way wakey (or anyone else) feels "it's proper". Sure people complain about kingmaking and fencesitting and lots of other things that don't benefit them, but that's mostly in the heat of a moment, and shouldn't really dictate how alliances should behave. If someone quits over something silly as that, he wasn't playing the right game to begin with.

People should play the way they like to play and the way they feel is right. But my point is that they shouldn't bother trying to make their actions and achievements look like something they are not. Kingmaking will always be kingmaking, and fencesitting will always be fencesitting. But there's no need to make a fuss about that.
TBH i'm fairly open to people playing how they want to as long as its not detrimental to the wider game. While I do have a problem with zero roid covopers as I feel it goes too far and ends up in an area that if its not abuse is very close, I wouldn't generally be against people kingmaking or fencesitting as thats their choice. However what annoyed me and made me post is the hypocrisy on show by Kargool. While its a common occurance with Kargool (he moans at others for abuse on forums/rep comments but is one of the most guilty of doing it and has done things like moan about alliance kicking members to merge only to have his alliance do the same weeks later) you cant complain and then hide behind "we dont want to backstab". Either you stfu and dont ask others to do so and your get a pass when you dont either or you complain and when your in that situation you live or die on your sword
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 21:58   #72
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirikk
I'm sure they'd play better and they would have broken the nap. But that's the difference between winning alliance and losing alliance.

Im not sure they have enough hc's left to break the nap though :-s
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 22:05   #73
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Kargool has a history of not willing to go for the win.
Kind of a 'take 2nd/3rd easily but won't risk finishing 4th with a chance of 1st' attitude.

I cant stand that.

It is however up to tgv hc how they run there alliance. They have run it how they see fit.
What this means is that players who will go for the win end up joining different alliances, and the players within tgv will be the kind of players who accept third place.
HC then can claim not to need to go for the win caus eits not what there players want.

Now, whilst I dont understand this mentality and I certainly dont agree with it, it is there right to play how they want.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 22:12   #74
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Kargool has a history of not willing to go for the win.
Kind of a 'take 2nd/3rd easily but won't risk finishing 4th with a chance of 1st' attitude.

I cant stand that.
Heh, its not about not being willing, its about not going over my principles to win.

The round is pretty close still, and launching on VGN isnt the only way to win the round.

But ofc when F-Crew decides to be kingmakers and launch on us because we are not hitting VGN you can see what the world has become!
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 22:16   #75
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Principles dont come into war.

Either you made a unbreakable nap, in which case in this day and age with so few players your stupid
Or you made a breakable one and are gutless.

I dont think you are stupid.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 22:16   #76
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Im not sure they have enough hc's left to break the nap though :-s
No HC's needed for that. Only takes an attackfleet to break a nap!
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 22:45   #77
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

VGN ftw!
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 23:44   #78
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Well well well this thread certainly spunked out a few more posts while I was away.


Firstly, wakey makes a good point when he said that I'm not an easy target whereas people are much more willing to attack him - if you look back over the last month or so of posting, wakey has been getting it in the neck. Sometimes this has been justified, sometimes it has not. However, it's a correct observation nevertheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakey
TBH TGV for kingmaking really deserve to have the 2nd place taken off them by the rest of us mass launching on them as its what such gutless play at the end truly deserves
This isn't something I really agree with, however. As Mzyxptlk said, there's not much time left and there is a passable argument that TGV still need to consolidate second place. I'll be clear though - it's not an argument that I agree with. I've always been comfortable with laying the smackdown on fencesitters such as NoS, as Gate will remember well. This doesn't seem to be quite the same situation though.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 00:34   #79
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
What this means is that players who will go for the win end up joining different alliances, and the players within tgv will be the kind of players who accept third place.
Take NoS as an example; in the glorydays they'd stab anyone in the back to get a shot at winning/doing better. People can't "stand" that either. In it's later days they were accused of fencesitting. People can't "stand" that either. Conclusion being; you can't play to please others, cause others will never be pleased. Play for yourself and your own principals and screw anyone else.

GG Kargool and TGV.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 01:41   #80
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

However, there's a big difference between backstabbing and officially declaring war on a former ally. It's not all black and white you know.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 09:44   #81
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

I thought it was the same, only one alliance calls it "ending an agreeement" while the other calls it backstabbing.
It's all in the eye of the beholder. And if TGV doesn't want to aim for #1, let them, doesn't change shit for any of us sitting outside looking in. VGN first, TVG second - TGV first, VGN second, who cares? (As long as CT doesn't win )
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 10:06   #82
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking
Take NoS as an example; in the glorydays they'd stab anyone in the back to get a shot at winning/doing better. People can't "stand" that either. In it's later days they were accused of fencesitting. People can't "stand" that either. Conclusion being; you can't play to please others, cause others will never be pleased. Play for yourself and your own principals and screw anyone else.

GG Kargool and TGV.
You have completely missed the point.

There is nothing wrong with attacking people you have already worked with. Its called FLUID POLITICS and the top aliances prove round after round thats its the way to win.

Its when alliances don't have fluid politics that we end up with block wars and a dull game with so few alliances.

I am more concerned now about how the link between VGN and TGV is working. I have been reliably informed from several sources that if TGV were to attack VGN then some TGV would leave the tag to ensure they cant win, and vice versa with VGN attacking TGV. Something very odd there.

Also, as TGV are running around telling anyone who will listen that VGN are cheating badly, it shocks me that TGV still refused to break the nap.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 10:11   #83
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Why do we have an ingame score ranking?
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 10:32   #84
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

So that the ones that rank high there could feel their e-penis grow in to 1upian levels.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 10:38   #85
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
You have completely missed the point.

There is nothing wrong with attacking people you have already worked with. Its called FLUID POLITICS and the top aliances prove round after round thats its the way to win.

Its when alliances don't have fluid politics that we end up with block wars and a dull game with so few alliances.

I am more concerned now about how the link between VGN and TGV is working. I have been reliably informed from several sources that if TGV were to attack VGN then some TGV would leave the tag to ensure they cant win, and vice versa with VGN attacking TGV. Something very odd there.

Also, as TGV are running around telling anyone who will listen that VGN are cheating badly, it shocks me that TGV still refused to break the nap.
The evidence about VGN cheating is clearly there, its just not something the multihunters can do anything about apperantly because there isnt a way to punish an alliance for organized supportplanets, only to warn and close said planets.

Oh, and also, it turns out that if you openly admit to using supportplanets the multihunters and the admins will go easier on you as in the case with VGN when they admitted to it in the #alliances channel.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 10:42   #86
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
The evidence about VGN cheating is clearly there, its just not something the multihunters can do anything about apperantly because there isnt a way to punish an alliance for organized supportplanets, only to warn and close said planets.
Without commenting on the accused vengeance case on any level, let me elaborate a little, Kargool.

There's been little alliances punished for "organized support planets" except eXilition (and this is where Assassin was the head multihunter, and 1up was being trashed by eXilition). Afterwards, 1up succesfully ran a round with organized support planets (supervised, acknowledged, and allowed by Assassin, forbidden by Fiery for the next round). Wolfpack alledgedly run more than 70 planets, to which m0shy has already answered "yes" to, resorting to "inactive planets/mascot players of low score".

Stop being a mong Kargool (by this I mean that, like myself, you will eventually learn that no matter how much evidence you have, it's just neglible). It only results in punishment if the eXilition -factor gets fulfilled. Otherwise, it's a really slim chance anything will follow of it.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 10:56   #87
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Without commenting on the accused vengeance case on any level, let me elaborate a little, Kargool.

There's been little alliances punished for "organized support planets" except eXilition (and this is where Assassin was the head multihunter, and 1up was being trashed by eXilition). Afterwards, 1up succesfully ran a round with organized support planets (supervised, acknowledged, and allowed by Assassin, forbidden by Fiery for the next round). Wolfpack alledgedly run more than 70 planets, to which m0shy has already answered "yes" to, resorting to "inactive planets/mascot players of low score".

Stop being a mong Kargool (by this I mean that, like myself, you will eventually learn that no matter how much evidence you have, it's just neglible). It only results in punishment if the eXilition -factor gets fulfilled. Otherwise, it's a really slim chance anything will follow of it.
I would prefer calling myself gullible for beliving that something was being done about this problem but instead the cheating seems acknowledged and accepted.

Why bother playing this game at all. I wont anymore, thats for sure.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 11:01   #88
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Without commenting on the accused vengeance case on any level, let me elaborate a little, Kargool.

There's been little alliances punished for "organized support planets" except eXilition (and this is where Assassin was the head multihunter, and 1up was being trashed by eXilition). Afterwards, 1up succesfully ran a round with organized support planets (supervised, acknowledged, and allowed by Assassin, forbidden by Fiery for the next round). Wolfpack alledgedly run more than 70 planets, to which m0shy has already answered "yes" to, resorting to "inactive planets/mascot players of low score".

Stop being a mong Kargool (by this I mean that, like myself, you will eventually learn that no matter how much evidence you have, it's just neglible). It only results in punishment if the eXilition -factor gets fulfilled. Otherwise, it's a really slim chance anything will follow of it.
Apologise for taking this thread off topic, but i dislike my name being tarnished, my alliance tarnished and people taking quotes out of context and adding their own spin. I dont like the use of "resorted", with negative reference to support planets.

What i have said is that there were more than 70 people on our server last round, we had a couple of "mascots/inactives" who had planets, by couple im talking 2 or 3. never did they defend wp members. capiche?

Now back to topic and stop flaming me keiz

*edit: typo fix
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 11:12   #89
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I would prefer calling myself gullible for beliving that something was being done about this problem but instead the cheating seems acknowledged and accepted.
You have stated that VGN are cheating, yet you refused to stop working with them (and by you, I mean TGV).

That tells me that it is YOU who has acknowledged and accepted it.

Whatever happened to personal responsibilty?
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 11:13   #90
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
I thought it was the same, only one alliance calls it "ending an agreeement" while the other calls it backstabbing.
No. Consider an alliance attacking their nap partner, without any warning and notification. Now consider an alliance telling their nap partner that in 24 hours, the nap is over and hostilities will start. Surely you can see the difference here?
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 11:21   #91
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
You have stated that VGN are cheating, yet you refused to stop working with them (and by you, I mean TGV).

That tells me that it is YOU who has acknowledged and accepted it.

Whatever happened to personal responsibilty?

It's called hoping that the multihunters would do their job.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 11:36   #92
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Why do we have an ingame score ranking?
I've said it once and i'll say it again, we have ingame score rankings so it doesn't become a popularity contest that bears little relation to the alliances actual achievements not only at the very top but all the way down.

Alliance score takes all the elements that are vital to an alliance success including value, size, xp, member numbers and the battles they fight and decides the winner by identifying who managed the best balance between each element to give them the best score. The single elements alone just give such a small focus on achievements that they are really not anywhere near as representative of the truth.
  • You can be one of the pre round tips and you can battle with the other pre round favourite but if that just becomes bloody and drawn out so that it damages even the winner significantly its hardly a sign of the best alliance
  • You can keep your members low and thus artificially increase your average but thats hardly a rounded round you have played and isnt a sign you have played better
  • You can have more members but still be beaten by alliances who have fewer members but have acheived a better balances and thus a better score
  • ect ect

Yes score isnt perfect but its alot better than basing it on perception/popularity of the vocal minority or basing it on something which only tells a small part of the story. The best after al in most things are not the most popular or the most skilful but the ones who achieve the best balance and thats what score tries to model.

Additional score counters stagnation, not only does it encourage more fluid politics but it also gives people something real to aim for. Take Kargools various perceptions of the round.. On his 14 days left post he said the following

Quote:
So, with two weeks to go, the top 10 seems pretty fixed, but the positions within the top 10 is not
Now while it seems almost certain he will ultimately be right and the top10 then will be the top10 we end on its hardly as clear cut as he made out. At the time we were about 10mill behind 10th, less score behind than HA were behind us who he claimed were giving us a good fight. We managed to bring the gap down, so much so that on the 3rd we were under 2mill behind. Yes we did then manage to undo all our hard work with some dreadful tactical choices and too many peoples holidays overlapping but the score did give us something to target (and still does as we are working on getting our score gap as small as we can)

Then we have his comment on this thread where he states

Quote:
Behind Subh again each alliance follow like a lone little island of score behind each other and it seems pretty set for rank from 7 to 21st.
Something which he was almost immedatly shown to be false when Vison overtook Orbit and then the two spent the next few days swapping positions

In both of these cases it highlights the problem with perception, perception is hard to change and if the community thinks the rankings are one way with weeks still left to play what has an alliance got to play for as they are unlikly to over turn this. And players in these alliances who's rounds personally are maybe over from a competitive pov lose the one thing that keeps them active because hey why put the effort in when the outcomes pretty much decided
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 11:44   #93
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I've said it once and i'll say it again, we have ingame score rankings so it doesn't become a popularity contest that bears little relation to the alliances actual achievements not only at the very top but all the way down.
After all Fury and legion hardly won r5. Realistically they just had the most active posters.

Maybe if score rankings were removed you'd actually have to fight another alliance to beat them instead of merely accumulate a higher score. That was how things happened pre-pax after all.

I dunno, the game you seem to went to play is staggeringly far away from a) what I want and b) what PA started as.

Your reasons seem to come down to "people are idiots and need the game to give them goals to aim for". I'm fine with that but I don't really want the "goals for idiots" element to decide the round winner as well. Maybe you want some sort of quest system for alliances?
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 11:51   #94
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey

Then we have his comment on this thread where he states



Something which he was almost immedatly shown to be false when Vison overtook Orbit and then the two spent the next few days swapping positions

In both of these cases it highlights the problem with perception, perception is hard to change and if the community thinks the rankings are one way with weeks still left to play what has an alliance got to play for as they are unlikly to over turn this. And players in these alliances who's rounds personally are maybe over from a competitive pov lose the one thing that keeps them active because hey why put the effort in when the outcomes pretty much decided

Gee, yet another classical Wakey, next round you try and make some round summary posts and lets all have a good dig at you whenever you are wrong.

Seriously, when was the last time you contributed positivly to anything?

Talk about pot kettle black here, you claim I am doing nothing but being negative, and here I actually sit down, write a round summary post and you do nothing but mock me, you sir are the worlds biggest hipocrite.

And btw, its always nice to go afterwards and pointing out that a prediction is wrong when you got all the facts and the possibility to see what has actually happend.

So this is my challenge to you Wakey, make round 23's round summary posts and I will be first in line to congratulate you for bringing something positive into the game.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 12:06   #95
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
It's called hoping that the multihunters would do their job.
'We work with cheats and just hope they get caught'.

What happened to good old fashioned twatting of cheats, instead of doing your best to kingmake them?
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 12:07   #96
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
It's called hoping that the multihunters would do their job.
Well actually no, its called you not wanting to attack VGN, and hoping the Multihunters would close enough so that you leap frogged them.

Still dont want to have no alliance limits by the way?

It would solve all of this...
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 12:10   #97
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Kargool, as I said to you on IRC - why let cheaters win?
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 12:24   #98
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0shy
What i have said is that there were more than 70 people on our server last round, we had a couple of "mascots/inactives" who had planets, by couple im talking 2 or 3. never did they defend wp members. capiche?
A lot of evidence, coming from other Wolfpack high commanders than you, M0shy, could point contrary. Again, this is "evidence", which evidently did not result in any closures, which would again imply that no "against the game rules" acts were commited. The same applies to any accusations Kargool might throw at Vengeance. On the backhand, in what comes to eXilition, they've been punished for such acts, as well as Transcendancy. So it's very evident that a rule excists which can be broken, the amount of evidence or violatins it takes to trigger the rules enforcement is hard to tell. If you really want, the next time I'll pop by in the other city, I'll dig logs from the other laptop with in-context quotes regarding your statements. IRC-logs don't qualify as evidence themselves, neither does news scan planet networking, though, so it's all a little vain. (As what I was trying to say to Kargool).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Why bother playing this game at all. I wont anymore, thats for sure.
Didn't you already retire? On a sidenote, regardless if you retired or not, howis it possible that you didn't realize this all round 17? Or round 18, when we hosted Odihnitoru because he was about to get smacked for being naughty towards 1up? (Granted, at that point, he was out of tag - and defined as eXilition support planet because of his continuous violations towards 1up. After being added up to Omen tag, he was no longer an eXilition support planet as he was in Omen tag, and did scan for us too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
What happened to good old fashioned twatting of cheats, instead of doing your best to kingmake them?
In the old times, cheat was a cheat, and less attention was paid to his rhetoric output. Today, a cheat is a person who gets caught, and isn't able to speak himself out ouf trouble (the Arc - bInTaRa case last round), or isn't able to convince the multihunters of being allowed to act different towards the rules than others are allowed (the Sid, 1up, Omen round 17 case).



The bottom line is, again, that Vengeance is ahead, TGV is coming second. There's still a couple of ticks to go, that is. Crying won't help - even if you'd present "evidence", it wouldn't probably help. It'd go through the Conspiracy Theory - Ace round 20 effect where at most the alledged out of tag planets would be closed, while no sanctions would be placed on the other planets reaping the benefits of the accused rules breaches.

Either come up with an idea to catch the 11 million gap with quick, or just admit you've lost, and the full term NAP you evidently made or whatever agreement you weren't/aren't prepared to go back on is costing you the round now. Political play can come with costly errors, too. I used to put pressure on the rules enforcement side, either being on the end getting sticked because of the lacking rules enforcement, or as a bystander: either way, it does little good. We all know - at least the long term alliance staff like you - how the current rules and their enforcement work.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 12:34   #99
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
In the old times, cheat was a cheat, and less attention was paid to his rhetoric output. Today, a cheat is a person who gets caught, and isn't able to speak himself out ouf trouble (the Arc - bInTaRa case last round), or isn't able to convince the multihunters of being allowed to act different towards the rules than others are allowed (the Sid, 1up, Omen round 17 case).

what you say here holds oodles of truth, there is no real spirit of rules enforcing in this game anymore. There is no real attempt at trying to stop the cheating.

I am sad to see what Planetarion has become, but nevertheless, the only thing that matters most to me is the fact that cheating has become the standard in terms of trying to win this game.

It leaves a foul taste in my mouth to continue to play in a game where cheating is accepted by the ones that are to uphold the rules.

Before, in the earlier rounds, the admins and the mh's actually stepped in, took action and got applauded, now everyone knows a way to cheat the rules and can abuse it without any punishment.

What can you do to stop this when cheating is seemed as so profitable that the risks you take for getting caught are minimal and negligible? I cant say, its not my game.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 12:35   #100
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Re: Round Report 5 august 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
What can you do to stop this when cheating is seemed as so profitable that the risks you take for getting caught are minimal and negligible? I cant say, its not my game.
For starters you could refrain from working with them.
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