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Unread 1 Oct 2012, 22:52   #1
Appocomaster
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Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Reaction to second half of this
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Unread 1 Oct 2012, 23:24   #2
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

-Prelaunch now returned to 12 ticks
-Prelaunch ticks now show for attack fleets in Jumpgate Probe scans

Oh dear.
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Unread 1 Oct 2012, 23:32   #3
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

i think the pl thing is pretty good tbh. adds some tactics in there. ie PL +6 but then log in when its +4 and cancel and live launch. if you can be bothered to wake up at 4am that is
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Unread 1 Oct 2012, 23:37   #4
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

-Prelaunch ticks now show for attack fleets in Jumpgate Probe scans

This means there will always be PL defence when attacking certain alliances. this change is great for Americans and ultores/apprime but really bad for those of us in Europe with jobs!

the lower alliances will find themselves getting targeted a lot more because of this

prelaunch has become the new stats, each round it gets messed with and now it forces people to live launch or not bother!

should stop trying to make the game hardcore only, there is few of us able to play like that, and im not one of them. there is a lot of us out there struggling to keep enthusiasm in playing.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 00:15   #5
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

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Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
should stop trying to make the game hardcore only, there is few of us able to play like that, and im not one of them. there is a lot of us out there struggling to keep enthusiasm in playing.
Having prelaunch at all makes the game more hardcore - organising defence takes up more time than attacking.

I don't really want to start this discussion yet again but it's important that people reading this don't assume all Planetarion players agree with your interpretation.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 02:31   #6
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Perhaps the prelaunch shown on jpgs should be limited just for all prelaunches with +3 and more. That would be exactly my suggestion which I made about 1 year ago.
+1 and +2 should not be shown on jpg. keeping PL low should be encouraged this way.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 07:05   #7
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
Perhaps the prelaunch shown on jpgs should be limited just for all prelaunches with +3 and more. That would be exactly my suggestion which I made about 1 year ago.
+1 and +2 should not be shown on jpg. keeping PL low should be encouraged this way.
I think that this is a reasonably fair compromise. In light of the fact we just dropped from 4 ticks, we could indicate with a star fleets prelauched for more than 4 ticks?
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 07:39   #8
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA News
-Salvage now 20% of attacking ships and 40% of defending ships
-Score-based salvage bonus now removed (though score-based capping is still present)
Good. Benneh will be pleased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA News
-Alliance fund donation cap now dropped to 30% of its former limit
Ok. Golan will be pleased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA News
-Prelaunch now returned to 12 ticks
-Prelaunch ticks now show for attack fleets in Jumpgate Probe scans
4 ticks prelaunch was utterly useless, so this is an improvement. Now you no longer have to wake up several times in a night if you see prelaunched incomings on your JGP, but only once or twice. Unfortunately, I think it's a dead end, because it won't solve the root problem, namely that prelaunching allows people to attack people who are asleep when they themselves are also asleep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA News
-Alliance merge limit now 40
*shrug*

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA News
-Naughty construction fiddling at the beginning of the round doesn't break resource stats on the history page
Not sure what this refers to, but I guess yay for bug fixing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA News
-For paid planets only:
-if your scan is blocked, automatically give a button to request scan from alliance (if you haven't already requested it)
-if a scan is more than 10 ticks old, automatic link on every scan to redo the scan
-if a scan you're viewing has a newer version from yourself / your alliance, automatically link to it (even if you/your alliance didn't do the original scan)
Ok, I guess. Doesn't particularly excite me.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 07:50   #9
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
I think that this is a reasonably fair compromise. In light of the fact we just dropped from 4 ticks, we could indicate with a star fleets prelauched for more than 4 ticks?
That would be better in my eyes, as I agree with gm on this one.
Looking from a HR point of view, pre-launch is often used and don't see why it's needed to penalize a less hardcore alliance.
I also understand the point of view regarding PL from the more hardcore players/alliances, but I 'only' care about HR in this case
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 09:35   #10
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
I think that this is a reasonably fair compromise. In light of the fact we just dropped from 4 ticks, we could indicate with a star fleets prelauched for more than 4 ticks?
This sound to me like a compromise between a compromise and a hard liner's position. To the wrong side, I might add.



(PS, Shev, if you want, you can come over and we'll cry for a bit, together. )
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 09:53   #11
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

just show the exact number of PL. what is wrong with this?
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 10:37   #12
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Can we have
-Prelaunch ticks now show for attack fleets in Jumpgate Probe scans
as a paid upgrade please.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 11:07   #13
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

No.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 11:09   #14
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

as with what Blue_Esper said

some of the following could make this less painfull as in its current state its only prevented by distorters.

1, make it an add on research
2, add it to the I scan so only the planet with the incomming can scan it.
3, for upgraded planets only
4, high cost for the scan
5, have a minimum number of amps or % of constructions in amps to enable you to be able to do it.
6, lower the amount of prelaunch on defence ticks to +1
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 11:21   #15
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This sound to me like a compromise between a compromise and a hard liner's position. To the wrong side, I might add.



(PS, Shev, if you want, you can come over and we'll cry for a bit, together. )
I'll bring the whisky. It's like livestock making tweaks to the plans for a new abattoir.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 11:28   #16
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith View Post
as with what Blue_Esper said

some of the following could make this less painfull as in its current state its only prevented by distorters.

1, make it an add on research
2, add it to the I scan so only the planet with the incomming can scan it.
3, for upgraded planets only
4, high cost for the scan
5, have a minimum number of amps or % of constructions in amps to enable you to be able to do it.
6, lower the amount of prelaunch on defence ticks to +1
I like all of these suggestions
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 11:35   #17
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith View Post
as with what Blue_Esper said

some of the following could make this less painfull as in its current state its only prevented by distorters.

1, make it an add on research
2, add it to the I scan so only the planet with the incomming can scan it.
3, for upgraded planets only
4, high cost for the scan
5, have a minimum number of amps or % of constructions in amps to enable you to be able to do it.
6, lower the amount of prelaunch on defence ticks to +1
I like the idea of adding it to the incoming scan.

Then the JGP would remain the same, just showing ETA without prelaunch. If you want to see if fleet are prelaunched, you could scan each incoming fleet separately to get the number of ticks of prelaunch. This would also make it more expensive, which lines it up nicely with the amount of information you're getting.

And finally, this means requiring a minimum number or percentage of amps is unnecessary, since you don't do the scan on yourself but on your attacker. The minimum number of amps is thus the number of dists your attacker has. As a nice side effect, this makes dists better, which always makes me happy.

Yes. I like this. Appoco, get to it! <3

The rest of the ideas I don't really like, but this one merits particular scorn: Lowering prelaunch on defense is a terrible idea. Not because it ruins the game, but because it doesn't really do anything, except inconvenience players.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 12:26   #18
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

yes move it to i-scan please... that's a better place for it than jgp's, and increases importance of amps and dists.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 15:06   #19
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I like the idea of adding it to the incoming scan.

Then the JGP would remain the same, just showing ETA without prelaunch. If you want to see if fleet are prelaunched, you could scan each incoming fleet separately to get the number of ticks of prelaunch. This would also make it more expensive, which lines it up nicely with the amount of information you're getting.

And finally, this means requiring a minimum number or percentage of amps is unnecessary, since you don't do the scan on yourself but on your attacker. The minimum number of amps is thus the number of dists your attacker has. As a nice side effect, this makes dists better, which always makes me happy.

Yes. I like this. Appoco, get to it! <3

The rest of the ideas I don't really like, but this one merits particular scorn: Lowering prelaunch on defense is a terrible idea. Not because it ruins the game, but because it doesn't really do anything, except inconvenience players.
I agree with this. It seems like the fairest way to work with this update.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 15:11   #20
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

The +1 max PL for defence doesn't only inconvenience players. It means defenders (especially in gal) have to stay online for even longer to launch their fleets.

I'd agree with reducing *attacking* PL to +1 max.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 17:04   #21
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

would it be possible in future for changes to be discussed, thought about and then announced rather than what we see in the past rounds where they are announced, then discussed and maybe thought about!!
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 17:15   #22
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Most of the things that were announced were discussed, you just chose to stay away from PS.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 17:43   #23
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I like the idea of adding it to the incoming scan.

Then the JGP would remain the same, just showing ETA without prelaunch. If you want to see if fleet are prelaunched, you could scan each incoming fleet separately to get the number of ticks of prelaunch. This would also make it more expensive, which lines it up nicely with the amount of information you're getting.

And finally, this means requiring a minimum number or percentage of amps is unnecessary, since you don't do the scan on yourself but on your attacker. The minimum number of amps is thus the number of dists your attacker has. As a nice side effect, this makes dists better, which always makes me happy.

Yes. I like this. Appoco, get to it! <3

The rest of the ideas I don't really like, but this one merits particular scorn: Lowering prelaunch on defense is a terrible idea. Not because it ruins the game, but because it doesn't really do anything, except inconvenience players.

Fairest way to do it, as you said makes amps and dists important again and requires activity to do the I scan - although would that be prone to abuse? ie. You +8 PL and then the guy I scan's you - you then cancel and redo it to +4 PL... you could seriously screw about with PL defence that way
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 18:01   #24
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

You say abuse, I say strategy.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 18:16   #25
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

the fact people are trying to come up with ideas to make it work, shouldn't that mean the idea should be put on hold until r50 and be implemented properly
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 18:18   #26
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

I like it.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 18:20   #27
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
the fact people are trying to come up with ideas to make it work, shouldn't that mean the idea should be put on hold until r50 and be implemented properly
I thought you were using a hyperbole there, but then I realised that the r50 is right after the next one.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 18:23   #28
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

read the changelog.

Happy about:

PL on scans
Salvage redoing

Indifferent about:

The rest.

All in all, one of the better changelog of late
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 18:27   #29
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
the fact people are trying to come up with ideas to make it work, shouldn't that mean the idea should be put on hold until r50 and be implemented properly
ppl are trying to come up with ideas as they feel the way it is implemented currently might be a bit too much (or at least that is the general idea i get from reading the comments). I guess if you try to find the corresponding threads on PS similar comments have been made.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 18:33   #30
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
You say abuse, I say strategy.

But its another thing that enforces activity in a game where activity is on the wain. It can be used by highly active people to cut out defence fleets whilst the less active yet not less capable ones suffer from something that is supposed to help them.

Als o how does this work will it read 11 or 12 or so on on the j scan??


If so couldnt you just +3 onwards PL fi/co ships matching your BS fleet on someone and watch it drag in a shit loads of anti BS and then launch your BS a tick later? WITHOUT EVER LAUNCHING YOUR FI/CO!!
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 20:38   #31
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

having not actually seen it in action i was presuming it would look something like eta 9 +5 as is seen on many pages as opposed to making it the whole number .. eg 14 as this doesnt exist anywhere as a format already.
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 20:51   #32
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
But its another thing that enforces activity in a game where activity is on the wain. It can be used by highly active people to cut out defence fleets whilst the less active yet not less capable ones suffer from something that is supposed to help them.

Als o how does this work will it read 11 or 12 or so on on the j scan??


If so couldnt you just +3 onwards PL fi/co ships matching your BS fleet on someone and watch it drag in a shit loads of anti BS and then launch your BS a tick later? WITHOUT EVER LAUNCHING YOUR FI/CO!!
you bring faking to a new level... you expect the not launched fi co (faked bs) will hold all those defense fleets untill what eta?
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 21:03   #33
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

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you bring faking to a new level... you expect the not launched fi co (faked bs) will hold all those defense fleets untill what eta?

Well if they are pled and amongst a reasonable amount of incs and on a planet that is sleeping then probably a tick or 2 - it really only needs to be 1 tho, the defence just needs to launch and its out of action for 2 ticks
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Unread 2 Oct 2012, 23:09   #34
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
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Well if they are pled and amongst a reasonable amount of incs and on a planet that is sleeping then probably a tick or 2 - it really only needs to be 1 tho, the defence just needs to launch and its out of action for 2 ticks
so basicly nothing other than current faking other than that you do it with a PL'ed FICO fleet other than a launched one... But like Mistwraith said i kinda assume it will be a 7+2 solution
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 01:22   #35
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
I think that this is a reasonably fair compromise. In light of the fact we just dropped from 4 ticks, we could indicate with a star fleets prelauched for more than 4 ticks?
+4 sounds fair. With the addition to make it visible on incomming scans like suggested below.

Something for future rounds: Maybe add some rules like
(own amps/target dists) > 3

So having twice as much amps then target's dists would show all enemy fleet movement with pl ticks exactly shown. Just for future rounds to think about.. Of course this requires that you can build amps/dists as many as you like.
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 02:03   #36
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This would also make it more expensive
Please do not make scanning more expensive! please
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 02:13   #37
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
Can we have
-Prelaunch ticks now show for attack fleets in Jumpgate Probe scans
as a paid upgrade please.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith View Post
as with what Blue_Esper said

some of the following could make this less painfull as in its current state its only prevented by distorters.

1, make it an add on research
2, add it to the I scan so only the planet with the incomming can scan it.
3, for upgraded planets only
4, high cost for the scan
5, have a minimum number of amps or % of constructions in amps to enable you to be able to do it.
6, lower the amount of prelaunch on defence ticks to +1
Also agreed.

I think to have Appocomaster's proposed added feature (a feature that will affect the less hardcore alliances might I add), there needs to be some sort of "premium" attached to it. i.e only accessible to upgraded planets and/or some of the above that Mistwraith suggested.
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 05:55   #38
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

-Prelaunch ticks now show for attack fleets in Jumpgate Probe scans

I am sorry, but WHAT!!!!!

This will benefit only people who do not prelaunch, they will be able to set an attack on +7 or something, then at launchtime pull and send on real target and watch and laugh as all the defence goes on their fake.

We saw how good Ult were with buccs v co at pl'ing def, it is going to make it a whole lot easier for them if they know when it is launching too. Pl'ers will be able to go to bed knowing that their attack is covered already.

This will mean the hardcore alliances (ult/app) will have a field day roiding whilst the less active alliances who prelaunch a lot will have defence against them time and time and time again. Any active players in these less hardcore alliances will soon find there alliance mates so small they can't help defend them when the lolwaves come to roid them down.

I am all for changes to the game, but this change makes such a massive impact and is positive to only the most active players. It needs to be the other way round, the game needs to be more social and people need to be able to do fairly well without needing to be online at 3am in the morning.

This is possibly the WORST idea in pa EVER and could very well be the final nail in the coffin.

Prelaunch +12 and NOT showing at all in jgp is the way to go...
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 06:14   #39
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Hahaha
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 06:16   #40
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Personally I would prefer that the prelaunch ticks only showed on incoming scans.
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 06:54   #41
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Personally I would prefer that the prelaunch ticks only showed on incoming scans.
agreed.
and depending on the AMPs/Dists ratio the info could be
- a '*' next to all PLed fleet not launching this tick
- add the eta+x (ex eta+5) for all PLed fleets launching later than the next 4 ticks
- the exact eta+x for all PLed fleets

in the same way dists return mixed informations on people trying to scan you.
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 07:03   #42
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

I think that the PL ticks should be shown on Incoming scans not Jpg scans. It gives more power to higher amp planets and makes it not easy to arrange PL defense.
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 07:21   #43
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Personally I would prefer that the prelaunch ticks only showed on incoming scans.
do a good thing and change to this please appoco
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 09:16   #44
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
I am all for changes to the game, but this change makes such a massive impact and is positive to only the most active players. It needs to be the other way round, the game needs to be more social and people need to be able to do fairly well without needing to be online at 3am in the morning.

Prelaunch +12 and NOT showing at all in jgp is the way to go...
So you want people to do well and not be on at 3am, yet you want to make people be online at 3am to organise or send defence.

Quote:
I am sorry, but WHAT!!!!!
It's defence that separates good alliances and players from bad, not attacks. Defence is also what makes players socialise with others, another thing you claim you want.
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 09:20   #45
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Haven't you heard, Forest has already made a lolblock next round, so sending defence won't be an issue, making defending hard, however, is very important for him!
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 10:18   #46
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

I'm in ultores and i PL my attacks, i am also australian so...ner
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 10:42   #47
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
agreed.
and depending on the AMPs/Dists ratio the info could be
- a '*' next to all PLed fleet not launching this tick
- add the eta+x (ex eta+5) for all PLed fleets launching later than the next 4 ticks
- the exact eta+x for all PLed fleets

in the same way dists return mixed informations on people trying to scan you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Personally I would prefer that the prelaunch ticks only showed on incoming scans.
I quite like the idea of having the exact tick on the inc scan
But on the jgp it doesnt give the exact tick but rather...

* between 1-3 ticks till the fleet launches / goes red
x 4 ticks + till the fleet launches / goes red

to ensure that there is some randomness in the event of trying to get Pled defense
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 10:45   #48
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

If it's moved to the incoming scan, I see no reason whatsoever to keep it on the JGP as well. That's just creating extra work for no purpose.
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 12:23   #49
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Ok. Golan will be pleased.
And that's the whole point of this exercise isn't it? It could still be seriously abused though, I'd rather it had a fixed max cap over 200 ticks like galaxy donations. Pumping alliance resources to a small planet in a big gal, and then from that planet to gal fund, from gal fund to a much bigger planet is CLEARLY circumventing the whole principle of alliance limits on donations.

It's not really an opaque problem, but I get the feeling I could argue my case for years with Appoc and he would never understand how unfair this could actually be. I'm just surprised no-one else has abused it big time.

Nothing about the gal fund limit of 75 mill being easy to work around either. But I guess no-one really cares if the top galaxy has 100 mill each in their fund. My only question is why even have the 75 mill limit in the first place then.

The PL stuff is meh, as an active player I'd just PL the wrong tick and let the target gather PL def if he wants, just to launch on a different tick. It only really helps the active players waste even more alliance fleets, and it will increase the frustration of people that try to gather PL def before going to bed. Worst of all though, it'll make getting defence easier against the less active alliance that you know won't change their PL.

Also don't forget, the more powerful you make constructions (amps/dists in this case) the more powerful you make Terrans and certain governments.
Haphazardly making core changes like these before ship stats are finalized is absurd. It should all be worked out together with a goal in mind and go through beta testing to see if the changes are working as intended. Seems like we just skip all that these days, make some stats and some random PL changes, cross our fingers and hope for the best. Gee, I wonder why this game isn't gaining players.
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Unread 3 Oct 2012, 13:04   #50
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Re: Round 49 Change Log Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
And that's the whole point of this exercise isn't it? It could still be seriously abused though, I'd rather it had a fixed max cap over 200 ticks like galaxy donations. Pumping alliance resources to a small planet in a big gal, and then from that planet to gal fund, from gal fund to a much bigger planet is CLEARLY circumventing the whole principle of alliance limits on donations.
this is actually not that easy to do. as you can only have 1 donation in 8 ticks and that donation cannot take you over the alliance average score. also, to donate from galfund to a big planet ingal is impossible due to you having to be below galaxy average to receive any kind of donation.

added to that, the limit of 50mil res donated from galfund to planet in any 200 tick period makes what you said, all but impossible.
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