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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 22:40   #1
Jennifer
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****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Right, so today was the big protest in Oxford by SPEAK, who are trying to get the construction of the animal lab in Oxford stopped.

All the construction workers are wearing masks to hide their identities for fear they will be attacked by protesters. One animal rights group has already burned down one of the boathouses, having glued the doors shut (Why? Dunno, maybe to stop anyone who was in there getting out?) and declared war on the entire university. People like me couldn't do anything about the lab even if we wanted to. They stand outside buildings shouting and using megaphones late in the evening. I just want to scream SHUT THE **** UP!! but I don't because otherwise they'll find my house and post a bomb through my letterbox. They say that anyone who is in anyway affiliated with the university is a target. That includes me and my department, that includes the cleaners who hoover the students rooms, that includes the boys from local schools who sing in the chapels of colleges with all-male choirs, everyone and everything to do with the uni, it includes vodaphone who somehow have something to do with the uni, tho most people have no idea what.

The protesters will stand in the middle of town shouting about how the sick inhuman scientists stand laughing over poor little animals while they hack them open with blunt rusty knives and then sew them up so they can do the same thing to them again and again every day for NO REASON. And they will tell you about the disgusting conditions of the lab, and how there are so many other alternatives to animal testing and how animal testing doesn't work anyway and so it's a waste of time, and they only reason they keep doing it is because the bad scientists are sick and perverted and enjoy watching animals suffer and the government is making lots of money from cutting up animals and watching them suffer because OBVIOUSLY loads of companies are just waiting to hand out money to sick perverted scientists.

And yet they will also freely admit that not one of their number has ever actually been inside the lab, and that none of them are scientists and so don't actually know anytihng about research on animals. And they also don't know that the regs in this country are among the most strict, or THE most strict in the world, and to keep a monkey in the experimental psychology dept to have him point at pictures of bananas it costs more than it would to employ a postdoc, and no research finds money easy to get hold of, and certainly doesn't make money from having the animals there. And if their child was dying in hospital and could only be saved by animal tested drugs, they wouldn't want their child to have them because they couldn't live with themselves for condoning animal testing. WHATEVER.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
*SLAP* *SLAP* SLAP*

Sorry, really needed to rant. They wind me up something chronic. It's gotten to the stage where an estimated 85% of uni students here are in favour of the construction of the lab, and I'm sure the protesters have done rather a lot to raise that number.
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Last edited by Jennifer; 15 Jan 2006 at 12:05.
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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 22:45   #2
Dante Hicks
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

This post confused the hell of out me because I actually agree entirely with you.
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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 22:48   #3
Jennifer
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Why is that confusing?
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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 22:49   #4
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

totally agree with you, not much more to be said really, your rant says it all
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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 23:01   #5
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
grr! arr! grr. hippies
valuable research i have no problem with: human life is more valuable than [redundant animal] life. cosmetics etc research i do have a problem with, because i feel [redundant animal] life is more important than human vanity. since i rather doubt oxford university is going to be opting for much cosmetics research, i tend to agree that these protesters are shitebaskets.
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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 23:06   #6
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

This is why Cambridge decided to not go ahead with a similar project a few years ago.

It's a great victory for idiocy.
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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 23:08   #7
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

you are not allowed to research using animals for cosmetic purposes in britain
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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 23:11   #8
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Why is that confusing?
I was attempting a rather lame joke on the theme of that I generally disagree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
cosmetics
Once you go down the road that "animals are worth something (in a moral sense)" I believe you are making a mistake.
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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 23:13   #9
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I was attempting a rather lame joke on the theme of that I generally disagree with you.

Once you go down the road that "animals are worth something (in a moral sense)" I believe you are making a mistake.
yes, but you have a shit definition of sentience backing you up.
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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 23:15   #10
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
yes, but you have a shit definition of sentience backing you up.
There's no good definition of sentience, you know.

Anyway, what's wrong with "Because they matter less" as a justification? It's not like we're going to run into any tricky social issues with animals demanding their rights any time soon.
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Unread 14 Jan 2006, 23:41   #11
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Two anti-hippy posts in the same week. How right wing are we?

Seriously though, I find myself forced to agree with Jenny. Especially as some of the little shites do things that would have them banged up under the terrorism act, were it not for this country's insane obsession with animals.

Can you imagine what would happen if the BNP decided to go round petrol bombing the workplaces of thier opponents in the knowledge they were almost certainly going to get away with it?
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 03:31   #12
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

I would love to see some of these nutcases banged up. (the arse)
They're talking shit and obvoiously have no clue what they're on about. Most experiments using drug material are done on mice bred in the lab to produce specific physiological conditions (for example hypertinesive mice can be bred within only a few generations) for testing of drugs that are essential to human life. If my dad was about to have a stroke and these drugs would prevent it, i'd rather have a ****ing rat die than my dad lose half the motility of his body, thanks all the same.

Seems to me that the lab researches should set up their own organisation and kick the living shit out of anyone who intimidates people in order to push their own belief system upon them.

While im on the subject though, i'd love to find someone about to abuse a helpless animal. They'd never ****ing know what hit them. Did anyone read the story about the kitten who got a crossbow bolt in the eye? Theres plenty of things that could be done to people like that, each one more deserved than the last.
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 04:07   #13
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proxi
I would love to see some of these nutcases banged up. (the arse)
They're talking shit and obvoiously have no clue what they're on about. Most experiments using drug material are done on mice bred in the lab to produce specific physiological conditions (for example hypertinesive mice can be bred within only a few generations) for testing of drugs that are essential to human life. If my dad was about to have a stroke and these drugs would prevent it, i'd rather have a ****ing rat die than my dad lose half the motility of his body, thanks all the same.

Seems to me that the lab researches should set up their own organisation and kick the living shit out of anyone who intimidates people in order to push their own belief system upon them.

While im on the subject though, i'd love to find someone about to abuse a helpless animal. They'd never ****ing know what hit them. Did anyone read the story about the kitten who got a crossbow bolt in the eye? Theres plenty of things that could be done to people like that, each one more deserved than the last.
quoted for absolute complete truth
These Animal Rights protestors should leave the scientists to their vitally important work and go and harass the sick ****s who like to torment animals for nothing but "fun".
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 12:06   #14
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
OBVIOUSLY loads of companies are just waiting to hand out money to sick perverted scientists.
Made me laugh.

If 85% of students are in favor of the lab you should start counter-protests.
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 13:13   #15
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

We would, except that the protesters will target anyone associated with anyone associated with anyone who doesn't agree with their cause.

One particular group has yet to return the dead body of a guinea pig farmer's mother-in-law that they stole from the local graveyard. And another group (or maybe the same one?) put a bomb in this old lady's dustbin because she was employed as a cleaner by the farmer's wife in their house (not even on the farm itself). And they threatened (with what? can't remember, not anything nice) a family who owned a local pub because they refused to stop serving the farmer and all his family.

The group we're dealing with has openly stated that anyone affiliated with the uni is a target, and a significant number of them have said they will ignore the rules regarding what they are allowed to do and where they are allowed to go in their 'peaceful protest'.
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 13:21   #16
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

I'm screwed when they start telling me i cant work with E. coli . I kill the little guys by the billion on an almost daily basis.
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 13:46   #17
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Do they have a website?
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 14:39   #18
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

yes, http://www.speakcampaigns.org.uk/
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 15:47   #19
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Vodafone donated some money to Oxford with regards into some kind of mobile phone study. I had some of them come into my shop and give me shit about it previously.

Edit: Which has had absoutely ****ing nothing to do with any kind of animal testing, but of course, why let the truth interfere in anything!
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 20:46   #20
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

I watched a two hour program on animal testing, called "Animals", on channel 4 this week.
It was quite interesting as it showed both the protestors and those that worked inside places like Huntington Life Sciences.

Apparently we used to audit (yawn!) HLS until Swampy and his mates started abusing the staff so we said bugger this for a game of soldiers, or something similar.
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Unread 15 Jan 2006, 22:17   #21
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
I watched a two hour program on animal testing, called "Animals", on channel 4 this week.
It was quite interesting as it showed both the protestors and those that worked inside places like Huntington Life Sciences.

Apparently we used to audit (yawn!) HLS until Swampy and his mates started abusing the staff so we said bugger this for a game of soldiers, or something similar.
having also seen that program i witnessed some awful treatment of animals and would agree to protest against that.... but not to this ridiculous extent when they have no evidence of mistreatment
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 11:19   #22
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
They say that anyone who is in anyway affiliated with the university is a target.
send em to gitmo.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 12:48   #23
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
While some might say humans are worth more than animals and we can do what the hell we like with them, thankfully there are some people who disagree and are willing to make a stand against such a moronic attitude.
I await the day when meat eating is banned entirely, but I won't hold my breath.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 12:59   #24
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

when you ban something it doesnt stop it happening.

All that will happen is people will start to sell chickens as "pets"

it would add an element of danger to eating meat though, which would be
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:02   #25
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
Sorry Jennifer, I dont sympathise with you or your university at all. As harsh as it might be the protestors tactics will work eventually.

Your university doesnt need an animal lab, they might say that it will be harmless and that it wont be used to torture animals in the name of science but eventually it will.

While some might say humans are worth more than animals and we can do what the hell we like with them, thankfully there are some people who disagree and are willing to make a stand against such a moronic attitude.

spoken as someone who obviously knows nothing about the subject at hand. Have you ever seen any of the legislation relating to animal testing in Britain? have you perhaps visited a lab engaged in this work? No? Thought not.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:17   #26
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

I'd bet roadrunner is right tho.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:17   #27
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

i dont like the term 'animal rights'. animals dont have, and never will have, 'rights'. interestingly, if animals are equal to humans, what do the protesters think of wild animals that kill each other? should lions be mercilessly hounded until they give up gazelle meat?
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:23   #28
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

So this other day right I was discussing what to do about the rising crime rate on the southern side of Dublin with a donkey but he just kept kicking me in the teeth and I was like "what the **** man, I got the metaphor the first time :confused: ". Anyways long story short who feels like donkey meat for dinner?

By the way green-spit I'm absolutely disgusted here by the fact you seem to be under the impression that the ends justify the means in order to stop animal testing. I mean jesus ****ing christ I don't like it when the circus comes to town but I don't think that means I should blow up the ****ing big top with 50 tons of TNT.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:25   #29
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
Sorry Jennifer, I dont sympathise with you or your university at all. As harsh as it might be the protestors tactics will work eventually.

Your university doesnt need an animal lab, they might say that it will be harmless and that it wont be used to torture animals in the name of science but eventually it will.

While some might say humans are worth more than animals and we can do what the hell we like with them, thankfully there are some people who disagree and are willing to make a stand against such a moronic attitude.
Humans are worth more than animals, but that doesn't mean that we can do whatever the hell we want to them. For instance, if a building was burning to the ground and in one room there was a human baby and another a dog, but you only had time to save one of them, which would you choose? I'd bet it would be the baby, as any other answer is just wrong.

If the tactics of these extremists twats works it will be a sad day for oxford and the british isles as a whole. People should not be allowed to initimidate others into getting what they want.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:25   #30
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

every donkey i have ever seen looks like it is dying from some hideous disease. get me some racehorse and we can talk.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:27   #31
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
valuable research i have no problem with: human life is more valuable than [redundant animal] life. cosmetics etc research i do have a problem with, because i feel [redundant animal] life is more important than human vanity.
This is trite; what exactly is wrong with cosmetic research?
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:51   #32
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
Sorry Jennifer, I dont sympathise with you or your university at all. As harsh as it might be the protestors tactics will work eventually.

Your university doesnt need an animal lab, they might say that it will be harmless and that it wont be used to torture animals in the name of science but eventually it will.

While some might say humans are worth more than animals and we can do what the hell we like with them, thankfully there are some people who disagree and are willing to make a stand against such a moronic attitude.
so if somebody put a gun to your head and another to the head of a bunny and you had to choose who died, you cant honestly tell me that you would choose the life of the bunny over your own, cause if you say you would your a ****ing lier
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 13:56   #33
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
This is trite; what exactly is wrong with cosmetic research?
He already made it pretty clear that its because he feels that animal life is worth more than human vanity.

It even says so, it seems like a fairly easily understood viewpoint.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 14:12   #34
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
so if somebody put a gun to your head and another to the head of a bunny and you had to choose who died, you cant honestly tell me that you would choose the life of the bunny over your own, cause if you say you would your a ****ing lier
That's an awful example, if they had the gun to my head and one to another persons head i'm still going to insist they shoot the other chap.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 14:16   #35
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
Your university doesnt need an animal lab, they might say that it will be harmless and that it wont be used to torture animals in the name of science but eventually it will.
The university doesn't "need" much - but things like this are useful for :science:. And that whole business of saving lives, y'dig.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
While some might say humans are worth more than animals and we can do what the hell we like with them, thankfully there are some people who disagree and are willing to make a stand against such a moronic attitude.
It is in the best interests of the animal rights activists to let it be built in England, which has some of the strictest laws on this in the world, than let it be built somewhere else.

Oh, and I don't see people protesting work done on drosophila, so at some point the argument appears to come down to "BUT THEY'RE CUTE!".
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 14:19   #36
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
the argument appears to come down to "BUT THEY'RE SENTIENT!".
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 14:25   #37
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

I have severe doubts about animal intelligence to be honest. I think this mainly comes from the fact that where I live they all vote socialist though.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 14:29   #38
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

'The swine' (hoho)
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 14:31   #39
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
...
Animal Sentience is nowhere near close to being accepted scientific fact, and even if what is currently suggested is true, it would only apply to apes, and perhaps dolphins.

Yes, dolphins, famed for their use in animal experiments.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 14:43   #40
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Animal Sentience is nowhere near close to being accepted scientific fact, and even if what is currently suggested is true, it would only apply to apes, and perhaps dolphins.

Yes, dolphins, famed for their use in animal experiments.
what's the official science definition, as supported by science, of sentience? I would have thought that, for example, cats come pretty close based on how i've always understood it (behaving in a manner that would require either thought processes above learned reflexes, or overwhelmingly complex, to the point of severe improbability, learned reflexes).
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 14:44   #41
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by Green Spit
Sorry Jennifer, I dont sympathise with you or your university at all. As harsh as it might be the protestors tactics will work eventually.

Your university doesnt need an animal lab, they might say that it will be harmless and that it wont be used to torture animals in the name of science but eventually it will.

While some might say humans are worth more than animals and we can do what the hell we like with them, thankfully there are some people who disagree and are willing to make a stand against such a moronic attitude.
I hope you die of a preventable disease thanks to research that wasnt carried out because of people like you.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 14:52   #42
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by Phang
what's the official science definition, as supported by science, of sentience?
Well, quite. I have no problem with animals being defined as sentient, since by dictionary definition this generally seems to apply to capacity for sensation, or feeling. Quoth Wiki :
Quote:
Sentience is the capacity for basic consciousness — the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. The word sentient is often confused with the word sapient, which can connotate knowledge, higher consciousness, or apperception. The root of the confusion is that the word conscious has a number of different meanings in English. (One can easily distinguish the two by looking at their Latin roots: sentire, "to feel"; and sapere, "to know".)
Animals certainly "feel" things, as in respond to stimuli of various kinds. However, sentient (in the Star Trek sense of the word) sometimes means more advanced consciousness or "self-awareness". This seems somewhat stretching it, based on the evidence. If animals are conscious in the sense that I mean consciousness then I see no justification (aside from perhaps "speciesm") of saying humans lives are more important than animal ones. Certainly there would not be such a clear cut distinction between "cosmetic" research and "medical" research (even ignoring the fact that some medical research is cosmetic).
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 14:56   #43
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by Phang
what's the official science definition, as supported by science, of sentience
There isn't really one, which is where half the problem lies.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 15:01   #44
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Yes, dolphins, famed for their use in animal experiments.
I hope that wasn't sarcasm

but yeah, I generally agree with Jennifer on this one
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 15:08   #45
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by horn
Unless your qualifier for moral worth is the cognitive ability for "advanced" language, in which case surely we are justified in distinguishing between the house fly and (for sake of argument) a chimp. Not because one is more cute but because one has more cognitive ability than the other.
Not if it's a boundary point (or area) distinction as opposed to a mass sliding scale.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 15:12   #46
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Animal Yes, dolphins, famed for their use in animal experiments.
Americans used them in the war to detect mines
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 15:15   #47
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by Chunderbunny
That's experiments using animals, not experiments on animals. There's a rather significant difference in this context.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 15:28   #48
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
the boundary point being able to demand basic rights ?
I was going to make a point about how the "advanced language", and the circumstances in which we would consider different forms of protest as viable demands for rights are rather pointlesly subjective.

I'm not really sure what jakiri holds as a viable demand for rights....
anyone else have any suggestions ?
I rather liked s|k's point a while back in a rather unrelated discussion about cultural capability. Perhaps it's not one particular ability but a group of them that when held indicate sentience (or advanced consciousness or whatever else you want to call it).

I definitely would not say the boundary point is being able to demand basic rights. Otherwise you'd run into the problem of infant cruelty being a-okay. Some potentiality point would need to be included if you want to approach it from that angle. As I said though I don't think that's the angle you want to approach things from.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 15:52   #49
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

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Originally Posted by Green Spit
There can be no question that animals are sentient as described by a dictionary;
Yeah, I already said that.
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Unread 16 Jan 2006, 15:55   #50
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Re: ****ing Animal Rights Protesters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Spit
There can be no question that animals are sentient as described by a dictionary;

sen·tient ( P ) Pronunciation Key (snshnt, -sh-nt)
adj.
Having sense perception; conscious: “The living knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's stage” (T.E. Lawrence).
Experiencing sensation or feeling.

My goldfish show all these traits and more.

Quoting Star Trek in a serious debate has and will totally undermine any argument you try to make.

A lot of those words are horribly defined. What do we mean when we say that animals are experiencing sensation? Do you imagine it's even vaguely close to how human beings experience things? If you are, what are you basing this on? I mean for ****s sake my computer experiences things and it damn sure reacts to them in complex ways but I don't hear many arguments for computer rights just yet.
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