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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 19:13   #1
Kurashima
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So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

Any Good?

Bit late now for me to take it back saying "It was shit" as I bought it in PC World in Liverpool and im now back on the Isle of Man for the next 3 months.

Bout to load it up, as WoW is starting to grate a little on me. Thoughts?
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 19:22   #2
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

It's good, but it's not quite so amazingly lifechanging as Peter Molyneaux claimed before release.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 19:24   #3
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

I enjoyed it, but it only took me a few days to complete it. The addon from the Xbox version isn't all that much either - but it sure is a fascinating game, at least in the start. I always end up being a bit evil though, except when I intentionally went evil all the way (that did prove more rewarding, regarding money and equipment etc.).
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 19:59   #4
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

I thought it was pretty good.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 21:58   #5
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

I played for a few days, nothing special in my opinion. Typical lionhead game, too many features that dont lead anyway.

I'm still in love with WoW though, especially after 1.9.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 22:08   #6
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rids
I played for a few days, nothing special in my opinion. Typical lionhead game, too many features that dont lead anyway.

I'm still in love with WoW though, especially after 1.9.
My system has spent the last 3 fn hours attempting to download Patch 1.9

Still got 75% to go.

Blizzards downloader is shit.

Whats so special about 1.9 anyway? Ive got a week to play Fable whilst this thing downloads by the looks of it.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 22:10   #7
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Havent tried Fable. Probably gonna buy it when it gets really cheap. At the moment im playing Jade Empire ( XBOX), which is REALLY great.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 22:19   #8
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
My system has spent the last 3 fn hours attempting to download Patch 1.9

Still got 75% to go.

Blizzards downloader is shit.

Whats so special about 1.9 anyway? Ive got a week to play Fable whilst this thing downloads by the looks of it.
The way they've put in the war of the shifting sands is awesome.

They've really tried to involve every char on the server trying to get people to think of it as a real war. There is a LOT of grinding involved to open the gates, and they've put in some great new bugs (banish doesnt work at all, mobs run around and hit you, but you cant hit them, gg blizz) but overall its a huge content patch, and we've not even got to AQ yet.

Also, new set graphics look awesome.
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Unread 4 Jan 2006, 22:42   #9
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
My system has spent the last 3 fn hours attempting to download Patch 1.9

Still got 75% to go.

Blizzards downloader is shit.

Whats so special about 1.9 anyway? Ive got a week to play Fable whilst this thing downloads by the looks of it.


ftp://ftp.snt.utwente.nl/pub/games/w.../patches/enGB/
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Unread 5 Jan 2006, 17:48   #10
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
My system has spent the last 3 fn hours attempting to download Patch 1.9

Still got 75% to go.

Blizzards downloader is shit.

Whats so special about 1.9 anyway? Ive got a week to play Fable whilst this thing downloads by the looks of it.
http://capnbry.net/wow/downloads/WoWTorrentEx-2.zip

will extract the patch data as a proper torrent then just load into your usual torrent program.

I found while using blizzard downloader it'd sit around 50k and constantly screw up my net connection, with bitcomet it would sit on 160k.

1.9 is nice, I'm sick of pallies whinging about being nerfed though.


I own Fable for X-Box and found it to be a brilliant game, my only complaint was it was too short. It has hands down the best ability system of any game I've played.

I'd love to see the extended content of the PC version but don't feel it warrants owning two copies of the game.
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Unread 5 Jan 2006, 18:01   #11
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
1.9 is nice, I'm sick of pallies whinging about being nerfed though.

Most pally players expect it to be a warrior but harder, so ...
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Unread 5 Jan 2006, 18:13   #12
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
1.9 is nice, I'm sick of pallies whinging about being nerfed though.
Those are mostly dps paladins (read as "loladin") complaininig about not having "l33t" enough skills though. They are sadly, not en extinct race yet. That's all about playing your role. Did you read the suggestions for new paladin talent tree's on the american WoW board before? I did it, once, or twice, just to amuse myself. Some are so hilarious its hard to keep yourself from laughing.

The main problem though, the way I see it, is that the paladin has no clearly defined role. Buffer/Healer/Cleansebot/ and now also weapon specialization and then they got plate. A bit of everything, so in the end they won't be good enough to compete with other classes at anything. Those who complain, think it means they are supposed to be as good at everything as every other class though. In wich case we'd only need one class

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
I own Fable for X-Box and found it to be a brilliant game, my only complaint was it was too short. It has hands down the best ability system of any game I've played.

I'd love to see the extended content of the PC version but don't feel it warrants owning two copies of the game.
Yeah, the game is far too short, that was my thoughts upon completing it also. The PC version has a few more hours of gaming, but not enough to justify an "extended" version in my opinion. And it certainly does not warrant buying another version if you played the first one, however good the game is. I liked best that you can choose "your destiny" about the game, and not the ability system itself, though that one is quite well made also.
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Unread 5 Jan 2006, 19:12   #13
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Those are mostly dps paladins
The paladin class was advertised as a melee hybrid. The changes fairly obviously change it into a caster hybrid, which isn't what many people signed up for. See also: Blizzard changing the role of the mage from "ranged dps" to "water boy" (explicitly).
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 05:21   #14
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The paladin class was advertised as a melee hybrid. The changes fairly obviously change it into a caster hybrid, which isn't what many people signed up for. See also: Blizzard changing the role of the mage from "ranged dps" to "water boy" (explicitly).
I wouldn't say that, they still are a melee hybrid, they can't expect themselves to be tanks, that's not really their role. They are a melee class augmented by spells and auras, this makes them flexible in a variety of roles. The only thing I found with a paladin is that they are at their best when partied up with another class, that appears to be where their talents are focused.

Btw, as my main is a mage (see avatar), where do you get water boy over ranged dps from, I certainly have no problems in that department. Anyone that treats me as a vending machine gets open a can of whoopass on them
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 05:29   #15
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The paladin class was advertised as a melee hybrid. The changes fairly obviously change it into a caster hybrid, which isn't what many people signed up for. See also: Blizzard changing the role of the mage from "ranged dps" to "water boy" (explicitly).
New warlock curse has significantly upped mage dps to the point where they out damage me on most raid bosses and trash clearing sessions.

Also, add TOEP and Zandalar hero charm and you've got amazing burst dps potential. Mage in my guild hits with 4k crit frostbolts... destroying people in pvp!
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 11:13   #16
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rids
New warlock curse has significantly upped mage dps to the point where they out damage me on most raid bosses and trash clearing sessions.

Also, add TOEP and Zandalar hero charm and you've got amazing burst dps potential. Mage in my guild hits with 4k crit frostbolts... destroying people in pvp!
TOEP and the Hero Charm don't really count, as whilst it is an "I Win" button, it's possible to make them useless in a pvp (up until this patch they were dispellable, and a stun/interrupt really spoils their usefulness), and even so it's still only every 1:30 that mages are useful, even with two of the best items in the game. In pve, anywhere where they'd be really useful, you can't use them because you'll pull aggro. They're useful at Ragnaros and Razorgore and Nef Phase 1, and not that much else.

I'm assuming you're a rogue. Rogues have problems of their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
I wouldn't say that, they still are a melee hybrid, they can't expect themselves to be tanks, that's not really their role.
They can't tank, they can't really do melee damage. They can do spell damage. There's a reason paladins are waking up to the idea of stealing +dmg/healing cloth drops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
They are a melee class augmented by spells and auras, this makes them flexible in a variety of roles. The only thing I found with a paladin is that they are at their best when partied up with another class, that appears to be where their talents are focused.
They're a healbot. There's no point in taking a class to a raid which is worse at its task than another class. You don't take feral druids over rogues, and many guilds don't take rogues over warriors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Btw, as my main is a mage (see avatar), where do you get water boy over ranged dps from
Check your manual. It says "the mage is the master of ranged dps. Only the rogue can put out more damage, and they have to be in melee range". It used to say that in the class summary on the wow official site.

Now it says "The Mage is a very important and helpful party member. One of the Mage's most powerful abilities is Polymorph, which allows it to control the number of monsters currently attacking the party. The mage is also able to use a teleportation spell, allowing it to travel through the land more quickly. Mages can even summon in food and drink to help everyone recover faster from battle."

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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 12:14   #17
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
They're a healbot. There's no point in taking a class to a raid which is worse at its task than another class. You don't take feral druids over rogues, and many guilds don't take rogues over warriors.
I meant they are capable as off-tanks, they don't really have the staying power of a warrior. Paladins really are terrible healers though I can't imagine why you'd put them in the role of heal-bot.


Quote:
Check your manual. It says "the mage is the master of ranged dps. Only the rogue can put out more damage, and they have to be in melee range". It used to say that in the class summary on the wow official site.

Now it says "The Mage is a very important and helpful party member. One of the Mage's most powerful abilities is Polymorph, which allows it to control the number of monsters currently attacking the party. The mage is also able to use a teleportation spell, allowing it to travel through the land more quickly. Mages can even summon in food and drink to help everyone recover faster from battle."
I'm aware of the changes in the manual about the role of a mage, but one can't take any of the class summaries too seriesly as talent trees & items are constantly being tweaked and balanced out. My point was, mages have not changed from a role of ranged dps, we can out dps any class with ease if you know how to play properly. I have difficulty avoiding stealing agro from other classes cause even my lowest damage spells sometimes out dps the tank.
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 13:11   #18
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
I meant they are capable as off-tanks, they don't really have the staying power of a warrior. Paladins really are terrible healers though I can't imagine why you'd put them in the role of heal-bot.
Paladins generate 1/3 of the aggro of any other healing class with their heals. Paladins have the highest health/mana heals of any healing class.

They are excellent healers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
I'm aware of the changes in the manual about the role of a mage, but one can't take any of the class summaries too seriesly as talent trees & items are constantly being tweaked and balanced out.
The change in class summary reflects a change in roll that the mage has been given. Mages now summon 10 water instead of 4, and it's an excellent improvement - it's just the only ones the mages have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
My point was, mages have not changed from a role of ranged dps, we can out dps any class with ease if you know how to play properly.
That just isn't true. Mage dps is increasing, mainly because things in BWL and AQ don't tend to be fire immune so frost spec isn't required, but that has the side effect of making the Arcanist Regalia even more useless than it is already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
I have difficulty avoiding stealing agro from other classes cause even my lowest damage spells sometimes out dps the tank.
DPS doesn't matter that much for tanking :eng101, and that sounds more like a bad tank than a high damage mage.

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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 13:46   #19
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

I always thought that tanks in wow should more focus on their aggro generating specials and their max damage peaks. Never tanked though, playing a warrior in the lowbie levels was the most boring mmorpg experience I've had in years bar Eve online traveling system.
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 17:34   #20
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Paladins generate 1/3 of the aggro of any other healing class with their heals. Paladins have the highest health/mana heals of any healing class.

They are excellent healers.
I could see your point, BUT they are slow.. slow, slow, slow .. when it comes to casting heals vs that of a priest or druid. Not only that the health they regen is negligable and wont hold out over a long battle (excluding lay of hands which has a long cooldown). Although I admit to not looking into the changes with 1.9 so healing may have been improved.


Quote:
The change in class summary reflects a change in roll that the mage has been given. Mages now summon 10 water instead of 4, and it's an excellent improvement - it's just the only ones the mages have.
Just because they improved a particular area doesn't indicate that area is the focus for the class. All they did was make rank 7 water (crystal water) summon more than just a few bottles at a time, because when you have to cast 10 times to get a stack and it burns your mana it really slows things down when trying to raid. Sure it's a benifit to everybody, but it doesn't define our role as dispensing bot. They haven't changed anything else because our class is already reasonably well balanced, unless something changes that effects our ability to fight in any given situation dramatically I don't think they will change much of our talent tree.


Quote:
That just isn't true. Mage dps is increasing, mainly because things in BWL and AQ don't tend to be fire immune so frost spec isn't required, but that has the side effect of making the Arcanist Regalia even more useless than it is already.
How is it increasing? It was never low lol. Also I think basing any judgement on a single raid dungeon (hello MC) as to what the end-game role of a class should be is stupid. Anyway, who cares about Arcanist Regalia, Netherwind Regalia for the win. For the record btw I'm almost entirely fire spec and get along just fine, I refuse to be shoe-horned into a single cookie-cutter spec, how boring.


Quote:
DPS doesn't matter that much for tanking :eng101, and that sounds more like a bad tank than a high damage mage.
Not when your castes go CRIT, CRIT, CRIT, CRIT.. etc .. and I don't even have any +crit gear.
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 17:45   #21
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Not only that the health they regen is negligable and wont hold out over a long battle
Eh? If you mean on the target, that's blatently not the case (see health/mana of their flash-heal equivilent). If you don't mean that, then

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Just because they improved a particular area doesn't indicate that area is the focus for the class. All they did was make rank 7 water (crystal water) summon more than just a few bottles at a time, because when you have to cast 10 times to get a stack and it burns your mana it really slows things down when trying to raid. Sure it's a benifit to everybody, but it doesn't define our role as dispensing bot. They haven't changed anything else because our class is already reasonably well balanced, unless something changes that effects our ability to fight in any given situation dramatically I don't think they will change much of our talent tree.
"The class is reasonably well balanced"? Last time I checked, mages did the least damage of any DPS class, with the least non-water summoning based utility of any of them.

And 20/4 = 5, not 10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
How is it increasing? It was never low lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Also I think basing any judgement on a single raid dungeon (hello MC) as to what the end-game role of a class should be is stupid..


Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Anyway, who cares about Arcanist Regalia, Netherwind Regalia for the win.
Netherwind is a lot better, but there are a lot fewer mages with full Netherwind than full Arcanist and you tend to need a reasonable level of gear to get Netherwind in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
For the record btw I'm almost entirely fire spec and get along just fine, I refuse to be shoe-horned into a single cookie-cutter spec, how boring.
How "almost entirely" is "almost entirely"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Not when your castes go CRIT, CRIT, CRIT, CRIT.. etc .. and I don't even have any +crit gear.
That seems unlikely.
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 21:07   #22
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
TOEP and the Hero Charm don't really count, as whilst it is an "I Win" button, it's possible to make them useless in a pvp (up until this patch they were dispellable, and a stun/interrupt really spoils their usefulness), and even so it's still only every 1:30 that mages are useful, even with two of the best items in the game. In pve, anywhere where they'd be really useful, you can't use them because you'll pull aggro. They're useful at Ragnaros and Razorgore and Nef Phase 1, and not that much else.

I'm assuming you're a rogue. Rogues have problems of their own.
They're useful at.... All of MC. All of it, without fail.

Onyxia. Where everybody takes it easy on DPS anyway.

Razorgore, Vael definately (if your tank is losing aggro to your mages here, you want to shoot him) and well, yeah Nef phase 1, not all that much else in BWL. Chromaggus aswell I guess, but thats only for pure dispelling power, and the fact that you send 3/4 of the fight running in and out of LOS.

Rogues have problems of our own? What? I'm completely happy with my class. I'm a well geared rogue, I can take any class apart from fking warlocks in solo pvp. I do pretty well in group PvP as long as I have a reasonable healer and dont try and play Rambo.

Granted I think Hunters are in need of one hell of a balancing, but I dont see Mages or Rogues being a weak class at all.
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 21:10   #23
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
I could see your point, BUT they are slow.. slow, slow, slow .. when it comes to casting heals vs that of a priest or druid. Not only that the health they regen is negligable and wont hold out over a long battle (excluding lay of hands which has a long cooldown). Although I admit to not looking into the changes with 1.9 so healing may have been improved.
You've clearly never seen a Paladin with a lot of +healing gear. We've got Paladins in guild that are easily as good as a priest when it comes to healing.

Granted, we wouldnt use them as sole healers for an MT in anything above Garr difficulty, but as a secondary healer to compliment a Greater Healing priest they are absolutely excellent.
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 21:39   #24
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rids
Rogues have problems of our own? What? I'm completely happy with my class. I'm a well geared rogue, I can take any class apart from fking warlocks in solo pvp. I do pretty well in group PvP as long as I have a reasonable healer and dont try and play Rambo.
Rogues do less damage than warriors and take more damage than warriors, and the class reps clearly have no clue. Using pvp as an example doesn't really apply in my case, as I was a full time pve gimp, with a build to reflect it (16/25/10).
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 21:46   #25
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Rogues do less damage than warriors and take more damage than warriors
What?

Are you talking PvE? Seriously?
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 21:57   #26
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

Anyone else not understand a word of this?
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 22:00   #27
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rids
What?

Are you talking PvE? Seriously?
Yes?

Sorry for an argument from authority, but when I both see something with my own eyes, and have it confirmed by members of EJ, I tend to believe it.
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 22:04   #28
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

Well, I've never, ever, been outdamaged by a DPS warrior.

So, you either play with a lot of shit badly equipped rogues. Or warriors that are a level above what we have on our server.
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Unread 7 Jan 2006, 04:17   #29
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
"The class is reasonably well balanced"? Last time I checked, mages did the least damage of any DPS class, with the least non-water summoning based utility of any of them.

And 20/4 = 5, not 10.
Youre server has crap mages then.

no, but 20/2 = 10 ... they upped it to 4 at a later patch.



Quote:
you said mage dps was increasing due to newer raid dungeons... I just asked how you figure that and it also implies it was low to start with.


Quote:
I was referring to the trend of mages going frost-spec specifically for MC.. I'm just saying there's more to WOW than just MC runs and I wont let a single instance just because its popular dictate what my end-game role should be.

Quote:
How "almost entirely" is "almost entirely"?
0 / 46 / 5


Quote:
That seems unlikely.
fire tree has lots of +crit & +damage talents. I'm not saying it'll always happen, but damn if it doesn't seem to happen a lot.
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Unread 7 Jan 2006, 12:41   #30
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Youre server has crap mages then.
This is not a single server phenomenon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
no, but 20/2 = 10 ... they upped it to 4 at a later patch.
Pity you didn't use the correct grammar to suggest you were talking about something that was only the case 6 months ago or more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
you said mage dps was increasing due to newer raid dungeons... I just asked how you figure that and it also implies it was low to start with.
1. It doesn't imply that it was low to start with. You know, "English"?
2. It was low to start with.
3. The change is two fold. One is that there's less impetus for going for the mana efficient, more survivable but in essence less DPS frost tree, the other is that mage itemisation is better in BWL, and even Z'G, than it is in MC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
I was referring to the trend of mages going frost-spec specifically for MC.. I'm just saying there's more to WOW than just MC runs and I wont let a single instance just because its popular dictate what my end-game role should be.
Being frost spec doesn't make you useless outside MC, you know. There are PvP frost specs that put out large amounts of damage, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
0 / 46 / 5
I'm assuming the 5 is in Arcane, not Frost (even though Frost is the 3rd tree and arcane is the 1st. I'll assume you haven't put 5 talent points into frost bolt.)

Congratulations, you're the first mage I've ever seen without Improved Arcane Explosion, Evocation and Clearcasting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
fire tree has lots of +crit & +damage talents. I'm not saying it'll always happen, but damn if it doesn't seem to happen a lot.
+16%, make it about 25% overall (assuming you chaincast scorch). Exaggeration agogo.
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Unread 7 Jan 2006, 13:18   #31
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

MrL_JaKiri is absolutely correct.

Take a look at any top guild's damage meters on an MC or BWL raid, and you will consistently see Warriors at the top. The amount of damage they put out trumps what any other classes do easily, the only debate being whether Fury or Arms spec does better. The only exception to this were Rogues with Thunderfury, but apparently they reduced it's proc rate and removed negative resists from the game, which has lowered it's effectiveness quite a bit.

For Rogues and Mages, who used to be the dedicated DPS classes, this is a pretty harsh situation. And whereas Mages still have utility due to their ability to summon water, Rogues have fairly little going for them. Mobs in raid instances cannot be sapped, frequently view through Stealth and with the exception of the Suppression Room, the ability to detect and disarm traps is utterly useless.
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Unread 7 Jan 2006, 17:20   #32
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
MrL_JaKiri is absolutely correct.

Take a look at any top guild's damage meters on an MC or BWL raid, and you will consistently see Warriors at the top. The amount of damage they put out trumps what any other classes do easily, the only debate being whether Fury or Arms spec does better. The only exception to this were Rogues with Thunderfury, but apparently they reduced it's proc rate and removed negative resists from the game, which has lowered it's effectiveness quite a bit.

For Rogues and Mages, who used to be the dedicated DPS classes, this is a pretty harsh situation. And whereas Mages still have utility due to their ability to summon water, Rogues have fairly little going for them. Mobs in raid instances cannot be sapped, frequently view through Stealth and with the exception of the Suppression Room, the ability to detect and disarm traps is utterly useless.
I'm sorry but no. You're wrong.

My guild has 5 or 6 extremely competant well geared rogues and we are constantly at the top of the damage metre in all sections apart from the AOE areas. Rogues are still the primary DPS class of end game raiding guilds, or at least they are on Mannoroth. We have some very well geared Warriors, Untamed Blade, Bonereavers Edge, tons of crit / ap gear, and I can consistantly outdo them, raid after raid. Infact the only warrior that consistantly challenges rogues for the top spot is an Fury guy dual wielding spinshatter and some other epic I cant think of. So in my not at all humble opinion, saying that warriors are a stronger dps class than rogues is a shower of shite.

With regards to utilisation in end game instances... You cannot do Vael without at least 3 rogues, rogues on razorgore are pefect for dealing with the mages as we can chop them down in no time. Broodlord you can use vanish as a complete aggro dump whenever you like and continue to pound away on the mob. Firemaw I can stay in the majority of the time because of highly stacked fireresist. Ebonroc is a great fight for rogues, mob constantly has its back to me for me to rain backstabs down on. Flamegor is backstab central again. Chromaggus is an annoying LOS fight but again I'm always a top 3 DD on it... I just dont see where all this hearsay is coming from.
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Unread 7 Jan 2006, 18:31   #33
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

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I just dont see where all this hearsay is coming from.
Among others, rogues in this guild.
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Unread 7 Jan 2006, 20:22   #34
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

sorry rids, but mrl's right.

whether the warriors does too much damage, or other classes too little... who knows

i am curious how the warriors control their agro tho
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Unread 7 Jan 2006, 20:32   #35
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters

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This is not a single server phenomenon.
It's limited in context then, there's little point arguing this one as the situation will be different on every server. I'm on US realms btw not Europe.

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Being frost spec doesn't make you useless outside MC, you know. There are PvP frost specs that put out large amounts of damage, for example.
Oh for sure, no doubt about that, but most of the power for frost tree comes from the slowing effect obviously. It's all about getting in the most shots you can before they can your arse. Of course because frost though has the lowest dps of any of the talent trees many people opt to put some in arcane to compliment it and boost dps.

Quote:
I'm assuming the 5 is in Arcane, not Frost (even though Frost is the 3rd tree and arcane is the 1st. I'll assume you haven't put 5 talent points into frost bolt.)

Congratulations, you're the first mage I've ever seen without Improved Arcane Explosion, Evocation and Clearcasting.
5 in arcane would be pointless since without the other stuff it makes arcane explosion & arcane missles less effective except on lower level mobs (and that's all I use those spells for). So yes the 5 are in impoved frostbolt. To clarify even though without the rest of frost tree talents my frost spells are also less effective, the importance is on using a low rank frostbolt purely for the slowing aspect not damage. That way I can get off a quick frostbolt and then chain scorch & fireblast.

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+16%, make it about 25% overall (assuming you chaincast scorch). Exaggeration agogo.
That's quite significant, even 1% is significant, and believe me it procs more often than not. Mathematically it shouldn't, but way to go pseudo-random number generators \o/
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Unread 7 Jan 2006, 23:47   #36
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

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Among others, rogues in this guild.
Well, its certain not something replicated in my guild. Maybe they have bad rogues, or maybe exceptional warriors. But whatever, heh.
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 00:08   #37
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

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Originally Posted by Rids
So in my not at all humble opinion, saying that warriors are a stronger dps class than rogues is a shower of shite.
For a good while, we had a PVP Rank 13 warrior in our guild. The first time he joined us in Molten Core, we had him swap out half his gear before we got to Gehennas, because he kept pulling aggro on every single mob even without doing anything special. He also lead the damage meters on every single run he was in, easily trouncing Rogues with good gear and weaponry such as Perdition's Blades.

And from what I've been hearing around the Rogue community - I have a level 60 rogue myself, it's definitely not an isolated case.
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 01:58   #38
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

Rogue DPS isnt based on weapon / crit as most rogues seem to think, dont get me wrong, 35% crit and a perd helps... but when I was 35% crit, 600 AP with a perd, rogue in my guild with 900 AP and about 25% crit was pushing me using a Lobo.

I'm now stacked up to around 900 AP, 29% based crit, 35ish raid buffed, and no other class gets close. *shrug*

This is one we're going to have to agree to disagree on!
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 04:59   #39
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

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Originally Posted by Rids
This is one we're going to have to agree to disagree on!
Have a look at this example to see what DPS warriors do to all the rogues that don't have Thunderfury.
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 15:31   #40
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

You guys would love daoc....

RvR forever!
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 17:45   #41
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

God no. World of Warcraft is enough of a plague that I end up discussing which classes do more damage during raids on Internet Dragons on forums, I don't need to add other MMORPG's to the mix.
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 17:52   #42
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
God no. World of Warcraft is enough of a plague that I end up discussing which classes do more damage during raids on Internet Dragons on forums, I don't need to add other MMORPG's to the mix.
Don't forget internet dragonkin!
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 18:17   #43
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

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Don't forget internet dragonkin!
Broodlord 54%!

(Broodlord Lashlayer's Mortal Strike hits you for 4852 damage.)
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 20:47   #44
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

Broodlord Lashlayer is a bastard, we were doing him on wednesday and one of our tanks is 'Oh, I think hes been nerfed, hes not hitting me anywhere near as hard as he used to' - There was a short pause while the Broodlord contemplated this, and then unleashed a 6.9k MS to a warrior in full Might. There was then much laugher from the rest of us.
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 02:15   #45
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

He is nerfed, so smaller servers can get AQ open, all of early BWL was nerfed in my opinion. Roll on AQ so we can stop farming runs and do something new
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 01:49   #46
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

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He is nerfed, so smaller servers can get AQ open, all of early BWL was nerfed in my opinion. Roll on AQ so we can stop farming runs and do something new
I don't know. We definitely noticed the Razorgore adds being nerfed, as they died horribly easy and seemed to do less damage, but we really didn't notice any significant change on Vael.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 14:45   #47
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

Vael seemed to have less HP.
Broodlord... I dunno, he hit our tank harder than he has ever hit him once, but other than that seemed a bit weaker.
Firemaw - No change apart from lack of OOC.
Ebonroc - Still an annoying ****.
Flamegore - Seemed to frenzy less?
Chromaggus - Big, Long, Boring, Its still Chromag.
Nef - Woohoo, green and black, go go easy combinations.
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 19:54   #48
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

Vael - Less HP.
Broodlord - MS less frequently. Seemed to hit less hard as well.
Ebonroc - Shadow of Ebonroc going off less ?
Chromaggus - Seemed the same.
Nef - Shadow Flame entire raid at Phase 2 landing to stop OOC so I guess that's a buff.

Summoning this green dragon in moonglade tonight should be good
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 22:10   #49
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

We did the Tyrant of the Dream tonight, fun fun fun.
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Unread 11 Jan 2006, 03:42   #50
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Re: So, erm , Fable : The Lost Chapters (Now known as "The WoW Argument Thread")

Server crashed first attempt, second attempt we tried just now (2AM before maintinance), we had a full mixed alliance raid group and about 30 horde, we dropped back into the house and healed him but eventually some noobs who'd read the world message ran in and dragged about 50 huge shades in who shadow bolted us to death. Have to get some better attempts in tomorrow

Just seen the red quest line is clear BWL in 5 hours, should be easy enough, have to say Blizzard have actually out done themselves with the world event, far better than I expected.
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