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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 09:44   #1
JonnyBGood
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Actually there is.

A great deal of the EULA leaves room for interpertation as its impossible to write an EULA covering all the exploitation idears people will come up with.

So when someone tries to exploit new changes to PA or circumvent the rules as intended the MH must set precedence for how to act upon it.

Which i believe is exactly whats happend now.
Incidentally can I ask you your opinion on the greenhills incident from last round?
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 11:38   #2
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Incidentally can I ask you your opinion on the greenhills incident from last round?
I found the way that Greenhills galaxy stood together and put thier common goal ahead of indivdual interests about rank etc. and actually played so well together that they got uni rank 1 very nice.

One could say there should be limitations to donations etc. which has been put in this round, but at no way where the any questions of it beeing abuse of the EULA as in the case of out of tag support planets etc.

There is a big difference on galaxy and alliance in that way.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 11:46   #3
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

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Originally Posted by Red-
There is a big difference on galaxy and alliance in that way.
Why?
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 11:48   #4
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Galaxies are allowed repeated defence, scanning etc "out of tag" and in general are setup to work like a entity too along side peoples individual alliance affiliations.

But then again anyone in PA knows this so why on earth ask...
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 11:51   #5
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
I found the way that Greenhills galaxy stood together and put thier common goal ahead of indivdual interests about rank etc. and actually played so well together that they got uni rank 1 very nice.

One could say there should be limitations to donations etc. which has been put in this round, but at no way where the any questions of it beeing abuse of the EULA as in the case of out of tag support planets etc.

There is a big difference on galaxy and alliance in that way.
I'm going to repost exactly what you said above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
A great deal of the EULA leaves room for interpertation as its impossible to write an EULA covering all the exploitation idears people will come up with.
This could certainly be claimed as an exploitation. That someone could do this was not desired by the pateam when they were designing the game. Round 3 saw the last player, singularity, get donated to the #1 position by his galaxy and the game was altered specifically so that this could not happen again (or so everyone believed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
So when someone tries to exploit new changes to PA or circumvent the rules as intended the MH must set precedence for how to act upon it.
And this is what happened. PA had been changed since then and this was again possible. The game was not designed with the intention of it being possible for this to happen. Therefore, by your logic it's an exploit.

There is, quite honestly, zero doubt in my mind that if it had been an ascendancy planet donated past a vision one that you'd still be screaming for everyone involved to be deleted for exploiting the game.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 11:57   #6
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Galaxies are allowed repeated defence, scanning etc "out of tag" and in general are setup to work like a entity too along side peoples individual alliance affiliations.

But then again anyone in PA knows this so why on earth ask...
I ask because you sounded like you meant what Greenhills did wasn't abuse (since it wasn't added to the rules yet). Still you're under the assumption that MH's should be able to close people because they're obviously "abusing" out of tag?

Either I misunderstood you or you don't make sense at all - hence the "Why?".
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 12:35   #7
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Galaxies are allowed repeated defence, scanning etc "out of tag" and in general are setup to work like a entity too along side peoples individual alliance affiliations.
But, by precedent and game design they are not supposed to donate planets to #1.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 13:15   #8
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
I found the way that Greenhills galaxy stood together and put thier common goal ahead of indivdual interests about rank etc. and actually played so well together that they got uni rank 1 very nice.

One could say there should be limitations to donations etc. which has been put in this round, but at no way where the any questions of it beeing abuse of the EULA as in the case of out of tag support planets etc.

There is a big difference on galaxy and alliance in that way.
Why should the donation limit have been put in there at all.

I'll tell you why.
1. To satisfy all the alliance crying antics.
2. To diminish one more way of winning, and try yet again to set some stupid artificial methods on how to win.
3. To tighten again the 'deemed' methods of play. I don't actually know what this method actually is, all I do know is that when someone deviates from this mythical beast, they are either thrown out of the game, or suddenly next round, the method is knobbled.

Some seasoned players, alliances, and the PAteam did not like the method, and said so. They added in lots of diatribe, and abuse, and statements about how its fair, but 'cheap'. Now they killed it. Even though any one of them could have legally used it.

That method and way of winning should be here today. Its not. Its been quite deliberately knobbled to stop it happening again. Pretty much anything innovative, gets killed.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 13:34   #9
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Wasnt Ascendancy actually the biggest whiners over what greenhills did?

Surely doesnt lay in line with all the spam on these boards...
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 13:40   #10
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Wasnt Ascendancy actually the biggest whiners over what greenhills did?

Surely doesnt lay in line with all the spam on these boards...
so its ok to cheat and explore bugs and be a donation monkey if you isnt asc?

donating res for a win is equal with donating ships or roids for that matter but hey it ok for everyone i guess cept asc
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 13:40   #11
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Wasnt Ascendancy actually the biggest whiners over what greenhills did?

Surely doesnt lay in line with all the spam on these boards...
I think that the ascendancy group were slightly split in half over the greenhills incident. Some were pissed others were praising it as a mere act of genious.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 13:47   #12
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
I found the way that Greenhills galaxy stood together and put thier common goal ahead of indivdual interests about rank etc. and actually played so well together that they got uni rank 1 very nice.

One could say there should be limitations to donations etc. which has been put in this round, but at no way where the any questions of it beeing abuse of the EULA as in the case of out of tag support planets etc.

There is a big difference on galaxy and alliance in that way.
Not in the EULA it is not.
And incredibly, what was said to me was that on the one hand, it was going to be applied like hemaroid creme and chili powder on Alliance / players who broke the section, but was never going to be applied in galaxies / players. And yet the disaster that is the EULA states that the rule applies to organisations, and specifically names *Galaxies* and Alliances.

Thus scanning for your gal and being a veritable 'support planet' is legal, and wholly at odds with the EULA, where as its illegal on days that begin with 'T', if remy sees you, if you have odd shaped features.

*Disclaimer* I can't flogging believe I am defending scanners and scanning activity. But I am..

Scanning.
----------

The game has scanners. Period. They do things which support other planets, galaxies, and alliances. You've allowed people to do this, now you're applying stupid arcane EULA rulings, totally at odds with the EULA. While I agree that in 'spirit', the theory that you'd not touch someone in gal scanning, but do touch those beyond is a problem.

If you wish to provide things in game that would help people know about scanners, that would be great. If there is a mismatch about scanning, and balance, fix it.

Scanners have *ALWAYS* been a form of support planet. The difference is that their legality was something that was deemed 'legal'.

The bottom line comes with the theory that out of tag scanners are evil, and allow an alliance to have higher score.
The downside of having them out of tag, to me is the strategic disadvantage that financing the scanning operation, because you can't pass them funds to cover the scanning out of tag IS reason enough to leave it alone. Its a balance issue, not an issue to throw people out of games.

Final disclaimer. This game is a galactic game of warfare. You are going to get support from people, and make alliances and friends, enemies and thus, its wholly possible to have many 'support' planets helping you, deffing you, attacking with you, scanning for you, scanning against you, even in repetition. Thus the support planet rules and how they are applied in arbitration come down to 'interpretation'. I believe that alliances and players should have free unfettered access to the resources in the game and use them for any purpose (Yupp, scanning, ship factories, farming, any strategy). Those who come up with the best plans - win. The attempts to limit this, and set arcane rules is the wrong direction.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 13:48   #13
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

To be fair to them, they took it like men
What Greenhills did was certainly an abuse of the game engine, in the sense that donations were not meant for a planet to win in this way. The galaxy fund and the donation feature were meant to help small planets catch up or bashed planets rebuild.
Whether he should have been closed and deleted for what he did is questionable, since the support planet rule didn't really apply to him in that case. Neither did it apply to his galmates. It was quite cheap, yes, and many people were celebrating him for taking the #1 spot from Ascendancy (Kileman) which is still in my eyes the real winner of last round.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 13:52   #14
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
It was quite cheap, yes, and many people were celebrating him for taking the #1 spot from Ascendancy (Kileman) which is still in my eyes the real winner of last round.
I agree. Kileman of Ascendancy for real winner. It's bad that people who spend less effort win with guerilla tricks (game engine abuse, a bit like xp-whoring round 16 or so) manage to beat the true hardcore gamers like Kileman who put a lot of effort to it. After all, the whole "While you were trying, we were sleeping" thing is so old stuff. REAL WINNERS FTW!
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 14:04   #15
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
To be fair to them, they took it like men
What Greenhills did was certainly an abuse of the game engine, in the sense that donations were not meant for a planet to win in this way. The galaxy fund and the donation feature were meant to help small planets catch up or bashed planets rebuild.
Whether he should have been closed and deleted for what he did is questionable, since the support planet rule didn't really apply to him in that case. Neither did it apply to his galmates. It was quite cheap, yes, and many people were celebrating him for taking the #1 spot from Ascendancy (Kileman) which is still in my eyes the real winner of last round.
The galaxy fund was there, its in the game by design. There is no basis whatsoever for claiming that someone should have been closed and deleted.
1. It took great co-operation in that galaxy to pull it off. The game is meant to be based on players working together.
2. The galaxy had to be united in the aim, not easy in the PA of today.
3. It was not cheap, it was good play.
4. You and every alliance out there have every right, and ability to go wreck any galaxy at almost any time. Alliances outnumber galaxy memberships, and the fact a galaxy came together and put your noses out of joint was a damn nice move. If any alliance felt that galaxy poseda threat, they had ample ability and option to go roid the living hell out of it.
5. You and those like you have won, because PAteam have destroyed the chance to play that way, wrecking co-operation, innovation and the basis of the premise of the game at its lowest level. So you can stop bleating about it.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 14:07   #16
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
To be fair to them, they took it like men
What Greenhills did was certainly an abuse of the game engine, in the sense that donations were not meant for a planet to win in this way. The galaxy fund and the donation feature were meant to help small planets catch up or bashed planets rebuild.
Whether he should have been closed and deleted for what he did is questionable, since the support planet rule didn't really apply to him in that case. Neither did it apply to his galmates. It was quite cheap, yes, and many people were celebrating him for taking the #1 spot from Ascendancy (Kileman) which is still in my eyes the real winner of last round.
Greenhills was limited in what he could do. When talking about this, you need to talk about the galaxy, which in winning committed to 'team work', co-operation, and unity, items that underwrite and are basic laws in the best traditions of PA.
There was a time when those best traditions were respected.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 14:08   #17
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Whether he should have been closed and deleted for what he did is questionable, since the support planet rule didn't really apply to him in that case.
I was really just basing it off red's logic which was about exploiting gaps in the rules when the intention wasn't for these gaps to exist (which I notice he seems to have coincidentally missed replying to!)

Quote:
Neither did it apply to his galmates. It was quite cheap, yes, and many people were celebrating him for taking the #1 spot from Ascendancy (Kileman) which is still in my eyes the real winner of last round.
As regards the whole kileman/greenhills thing I thought it was a decent idea as did a number of other ascendancy members. The only thing that annoyed me about was the fact that kileman quit PA over it and I genuinely thought that if roles/alliances had been changed we would have seen everything dealt with rather differently.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it at all if you could donate resources to anyone but the fact was that due to botched game design there really wasn't a counter to it. However as I pointed out at the time the EULA doesn't say "but if you're in his galaxy it's fine". In fact given the wording of the support planet rule with the specific inclusion of the word "planet" as opposed to merely alliance one wonders what exactly the addition of that word was aimed at combatting. Which led to part MCCLXVII of my argument against the continued inclusion of the support planets rule as it stands.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 15:17   #18
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
The galaxy fund was there, its in the game by design. There is no basis whatsoever for claiming that someone should have been closed and deleted.
1. It took great co-operation in that galaxy to pull it off. The game is meant to be based on players working together.
2. The galaxy had to be united in the aim, not easy in the PA of today.
3. It was not cheap, it was good play.
4. You and every alliance out there have every right, and ability to go wreck any galaxy at almost any time. Alliances outnumber galaxy memberships, and the fact a galaxy came together and put your noses out of joint was a damn nice move. If any alliance felt that galaxy poseda threat, they had ample ability and option to go roid the living hell out of it.
5. You and those like you have won, because PAteam have destroyed the chance to play that way, wrecking co-operation, innovation and the basis of the premise of the game at its lowest level. So you can stop bleating about it.
You are missing the whole point. The galaxy fund was not designed to help a planet win #1 spot by suddenly getting all the funds stored in the galaxy funds. What you are saying is basically that it's ok for one planet to win using the combined resources and efforts of 7 other planets in his galaxy. I don't see any cooperation in there, cooperation in the strict sense means i give something and get something in return. I give you resources, you help me out with defence; i give you scans, you help me on attacks; etc.
I am surely glad that PA team have destroyed that way to play, since i find it totally pointless to play a whole round to lose in the end spurt to a trick of explotation of the galaxy fund.
I am sure some players have absolutely no 'ethics' to accept a win in that sense. I myself would rather end rank 1000 by my own efforts than be donated to #1 by 7 other players. It was probably fun, but that's it. Don't expect the majority of players in PA to acknowledge Greenhills victory as legitimate.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 15:21   #19
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

My main problem is that the option wasn't open to everyone. The actual lesson therefore became "play deliberately poorly in order to be below your gal average value and you can be donated to #1, play well and you can't".
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 15:34   #20
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
I don't see any cooperation in there, cooperation in the strict sense means i give something and get something in return. I give you resources, you help me out with defence; i give you scans, you help me on attacks; etc.
and there you have the diffrent with support and cooperation in a nutshell
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 15:43   #21
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I agree. Kileman of Ascendancy for real winner. It's bad that people who spend less effort win with guerilla tricks (game engine abuse, a bit like xp-whoring round 16 or so) manage to beat the true hardcore gamers like Kileman who put a lot of effort to it. After all, the whole "While you were trying, we were sleeping" thing is so old stuff. REAL WINNERS FTW!
Surely, by the same token, rain is the real winner of round 16?


I liked the way in which Greenhills won, it was new and within the rules. Although I still agree, to some extent, with the system being changed for this to no longer be possible as these things aren't very funny/innovative/interesting/original when they're done for the 2nd or 3rd time (see 1up's round 17 win)
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 15:45   #22
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
I liked the way in which Greenhills won, it was new
Sometimes I forget that in round 3 kila would have actually been like eight years old.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 15:58   #23
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

"new to PAX"
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 15:59   #24
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

"New to the 17th of July 2007 between the hours of 3 and 5pm."
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 15:59   #25
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
You are missing the whole point. The galaxy fund was not designed to help a planet win #1 spot by suddenly getting all the funds stored in the galaxy funds. What you are saying is basically that it's ok for one planet to win using the combined resources and efforts of 7 other planets in his galaxy.
No, the Galaxy fund is limited to giving res to the gal that is below average. And its you who is missing the point totally, to do this required significant effort, planning, defense of the gal resources, and agreement from the gal to do it this way. And further, as you said, its 7 members, or 12, or whatever they had, up against whole alliances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
I don't see any cooperation in there, cooperation in the strict sense means i give something and get something in return. I give you resources, you help me out with defence; i give you scans, you help me on attacks; etc.
That galaxy so obviously co-operated and worked together that its beyond discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
I am surely glad that PA team have destroyed that way to play, since i find it totally pointless to play a whole round to lose in the end spurt to a trick of explotation of the galaxy fund.
I am sure some players have absolutely no 'ethics' to accept a win in that sense.
Marvellous, smear them, applaud destruction of a method of play, and then smear them again. They must be terrible people, these folk who got together and outfoxed everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
I myself would rather end rank 1000 by my own efforts than be donated to #1 by 7 other players. It was probably fun, but that's it. Don't expect the majority of players in PA to acknowledge Greenhills victory as legitimate.
You probably do absolutely nothing in game without serious help from those round you. These '7' elevated one of them, just like alliances have elevated their members in the past, and as such they are a magnificent 7. In the previous round, if I recollect fully, eXi focused all their efforts on certain outcomes, even to the detriment of their members globally.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 16:40   #26
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
No, the Galaxy fund is limited to giving res to the gal that is below average. And its you who is missing the point totally, to do this required significant effort, planning, defense of the gal resources, and agreement from the gal to do it this way. And further, as you said, its 7 members, or 12, or whatever they had, up against whole alliances.
With the slight difference that an alliance can't abuse the alliance fund in the same way. And you are still missing the point of the purpose of the alliance fund, but i guess if you haven't understood it by now you will never get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
That galaxy so obviously co-operated and worked together that its beyond discussion.
No, they did not cooperate. That gal sacrificed their collective rank for him. Again, if you call that cooperation the i would never cooperate with you, since you would be expecting me to give you all my resources without giving anything back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
Marvellous, smear them, applaud destruction of a method of play, and then smear them again. They must be terrible people, these folk who got together and outfoxed everyone.
They outfoxed everyone, yes. Again, the fact that their trick was clever doesn't mean it was ethical. Don't expect recognition from my part for such a lousy way of winning a round, having 7 workhorses gather resources for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
You probably do absolutely nothing in game without serious help from those round you. These '7' elevated one of them, just like alliances have elevated their members in the past, and as such they are a magnificent 7. In the previous round, if I recollect fully, eXi focused all their efforts on certain outcomes, even to the detriment of their members globally.
You just amaze me. You can't be the top alliance if you focus efforts on other outcomes in detriment of the members. In fact, eXi was all about team play, about having the most players in value, about having the best galaxies. And exactly the type of play that you seem to be glorifying is the one that brought us the support planet rule for starters.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 16:48   #27
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
With the slight difference that an alliance can't abuse the alliance fund in the same way. And you are still missing the point of the purpose of the alliance fund, but i guess if you haven't understood it by now you will never get it.
The alliance which by the numbers you post here might be 10 times larger than the piddly little Galaxy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
No, they did not cooperate. That gal sacrificed their collective rank for him. Again, if you call that cooperation the i would never cooperate with you, since you would be expecting me to give you all my resources without giving anything back.
Off course they co-operated. And a poverty stricken, lowly useless galaxy can't match any leading player. They had to have worked together to keep enough roids in gal and the rest to make this attempt work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
They outfoxed everyone, yes. Again, the fact that their trick was clever doesn't mean it was ethical. Don't expect recognition from my part for such a lousy way of winning a round, having 7 workhorses gather resources for you.
As opposed to you being in some ally and having upto 70 people help you out I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
You just amaze me. You can't be the top alliance if you focus efforts on other outcomes in detriment of the members. In fact, eXi was all about team play, about having the most players in value, about having the best galaxies. And exactly the type of play that you seem to be glorifying is the one that brought us the support planet rule for starters.
Thats funny, I sat in my gal as at least one of their members was waved without def because it was near the end of round and they had other fish to fry. When asked about it, I'm not going to repeat it, but I will say it does not match the statement you attempted to pitch above. Nuff said.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 17:19   #28
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Off course they co-operated. And a poverty stricken, lowly useless galaxy can't match any leading player. They had to have worked together to keep enough roids in gal and the rest to make this attempt work.
7 planets against 1 (if that was indeed the number) makes a mockery of the planet ranks if one assumes they are designed to reflect individual effort and "skill" over the course of a round. It is certainly not designed or intended to match whole galaxies against individual players as you seem to want to suggest.

The reality is that Greenhills didn't win last round. Rather (Greenhills + Support Player 1 + Support Player 2 + ... + Support Player 7) won it collectively. Without the direct and willful sacrifice of these people it would not have been done. This is not in any way comparable to the mutual defense fleet trading and joined attacks of large alliances. Stop saying it is.

That said, I think Greenhill's win was perfectly legitimate. I felt very sorry for Kileman as in my mind he deserved the victory but I don't expect that in a wargame people will always get what they deserve. No rules were broken, the fact that this is mainly because there are none governing the situation is irrelevant. It certainly wasn't Greenhill's fault that our current ruleset is completely bogus.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 17:33   #29
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
7 planets against 1 (if that was indeed the number) makes a mockery of the planet ranks if one assumes they are designed to reflect individual effort and "skill" over the course of a round. It is certainly not designed or intended to match whole galaxies against individual players as you seem to want to suggest.

The reality is that Greenhills didn't win last round. Rather (Greenhills + Support Player 1 + Support Player 2 + ... + Support Player 7) won it collectively. Without the direct and willful sacrifice of these people it would not have been done. This is not in any way comparable to the mutual defense fleet trading and joined attacks of large alliances. Stop saying it is.

That said, I think Greenhill's win was perfectly legitimate. I felt very sorry for Kileman as in my mind he deserved the victory but I don't expect that in a wargame people will always get what they deserve. No rules were broken, the fact that this is mainly because there are none governing the situation is irrelevant. It certainly wasn't Greenhill's fault that our current ruleset is completely bogus.
I feel sorry for Kileman. No one likes to lose in the home stretch.

But "mockery of the planet ranks if one assumes they are designed to reflect individual effort and "skill" over the course of a round." Some of you alliance whores really do take the biscuit. Seriously.

Stop saying it is? No, I won't. While its not *exactly* that way, just because the method is different does not mitigate or reduce its effects. When you play in an alliance, you have numerous planets operating in support of you, be it scanning, defense, attacking, or access to tools and operations not available to 'individual' players.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 17:46   #30
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
"New to the 17th of July 2007 between the hours of 3 and 5pm."
"First time after the donation limitations and farming legislation were put in place."

OH WAIT MINE ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE.

I have no idea what point I'm arguing though, I didn't actually read Kila's post
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 17:49   #31
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
When you play in an alliance, you have numerous planets operating in support of you, be it scanning, defense, attacking, or access to tools and operations not available to 'individual' players.
err... in an alliance everyone supports everyone. In Greenhills galaxy everyone supported Greenhills and no one else. There's a slight difference there, mister.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 17:52   #32
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
But "mockery of the planet ranks if one assumes they are designed to reflect individual effort and "skill" over the course of a round." Some of you alliance whores really do take the biscuit. Seriously.

Stop saying it is? No, I won't. While its not *exactly* that way, just because the method is different does not mitigate or reduce its effects. When you play in an alliance, you have numerous planets operating in support of you, be it scanning, defense, attacking, or access to tools and operations not available to 'individual' players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
cooperation in the strict sense means i give something and get something in return.
how do you find this so difficult to understand? Alliances exist as a way for planets to mutually support each other, you defend people and they defend you back, they scan for you and you donate them res, you attack together to decrease the possibility of your wave being defended. It's give and take.

In no way did the other planets in his galaxy gain from it. They existed soley for the support of that one planet, going as far (i seem to remember) of crashing fleets to turn into salvage so they could donate more. Theirs no take in the relationship.

And as far as the bollocks your talking about with allowing more ways to play, what game are you seriously wanting to play? Donating res on the last day negates all reason to actually fight for 2 months, if thats the sort of game you really want to play then you'll find yourself very lonely.

All this however is rather off topic.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 17:58   #33
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
err... in an alliance everyone supports everyone. In Greenhills galaxy everyone supported Greenhills and no one else. There's a slight difference there, mister.
I challenge your statement. Proove it. If everyone in that gal 'only supported' Greenhills, then the gal would have not been able to do what it did.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 18:03   #34
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
I challenge your statement. Proove it. If everyone in that gal 'only supported' Greenhills, then the gal would have not been able to do what it did.
are you daft m8? try to think a bit then post
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 18:07   #35
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
"First time after the donation limitations and farming legislation were put in place."

OH WAIT MINE ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE.

I have no idea what point I'm arguing though, I didn't actually read Kila's post
That's not true either! I did it in r16 when I saw all those suiciders heading towards rain and delos did it the round previously. As mz pointed out above we are very off-topic though.

Quote:
I challenge your statement. Proove it. If everyone in that gal 'only supported' Greenhills, then the gal would have not been able to do what it did.
...

Anyways going back a bit I'm still waiting on a response from red

Going back even further I don't believe that there is a really bad attitude among the multihunters but having a system of rules which we can't understand and require extensive interpretation isn't healthy for the game as a whole. Would anyone disagree?
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 18:09   #36
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
how do you find this so difficult to understand? Alliances exist as a way for planets to mutually support each other, you defend people and they defend you back, they scan for you and you donate them res, you attack together to decrease the possibility of your wave being defended. It's give and take.
The same applies to Galaxies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
In no way did the other planets in his galaxy gain from it. They existed soley for the support of that one planet, going as far (i seem to remember) of crashing fleets to turn into salvage so they could donate more. Theirs no take in the relationship.
They had fleets? You just claimed they existed only to support Greenhills, something that you and others in this thread have basically lied about to further your own agenda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
And as far as the bollocks your talking about with allowing more ways to play, what game are you seriously wanting to play? Donating res on the last day negates all reason to actually fight for 2 months, if thats the sort of game you really want to play then you'll find yourself very lonely.
They like you had to fight for two months to reach the endgame. Claiming it all came about on the last day merely by res donating ignores all their activity , attempts to diminish (In fact, some of the people in thread seem to not bother with facts, but replace with fabrications and lies simply to further their basis for argument) any work they did in defense or attack or any other facet of the game, and purely for the purpose of your own agendas.[/quote]
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 18:19   #37
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
I challenge your statement. Proove it. If everyone in that gal 'only supported' Greenhills, then the gal would have not been able to do what it did.
You surely are kidding me now, right? Every single planet that helped donating Greenhills to #1 sacrificed their own resources which could be spent getting their own planets much higher on the rankings. You don't see that happening in alliances.

It really takes a narrow mind to not understand this, AdmV0rl0n.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 18:24   #38
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
You surely are kidding me now, right? Every single planet that helped donating Greenhills to #1 sacrificed their own resources which could be spent getting their own planets much higher on the rankings. You don't see that happening in alliances.

It really takes a narrow mind to not understand this, AdmV0rl0n.
No, it is some of you whom do not understand the reality of what happened.
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...ght=Greenhills
Read it. Take *careful note* of what is said by those involved.

I'm not going to repeat this again. But some of you are lying in your attempts to support your arguments.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 18:30   #39
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
But some of you are lying in your attempts to support your arguments.
They donated resources so he could get to #1. Without those resources he wouldn't get to #1. Am I lying, am I?

Seriously, I'm not trying to discredit Greenhills. The win was perfectly legitimate and took everyone by surprise (which I found amusing enough). But saying it took a lot of effort and such to achieve is of course pure bullshit.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 18:37   #40
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
They donated resources so he could get to #1. Without those resources he wouldn't get to #1. Am I lying, am I?
Why lie nadar :S !!

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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 19:28   #41
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

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Originally Posted by _Kila_
Surely, by the same token, rain is the real winner of round 16?
Scarspasm on the interweb, Kila.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 19:50   #42
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
The reality is that Greenhills didn't win last round. Rather (Greenhills + Support Player 1 + Support Player 2 + ... + Support Player 7) won it collectively. Without the direct and willful sacrifice of these people it would not have been done. This is not in any way comparable to the mutual defense fleet trading and joined attacks of large alliances. Stop saying it is.
And you lot defending your member with all you had night after night was any different?
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 20:19   #43
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
And you lot defending your member with all you had night after night was any different?
I have vague recollections of Kileman actually sending defense. But no, it's not really that different in my opinion. Hence why I think it should be legalized.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 20:27   #44
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Kileman defended me on a few occasions. I defended him on a few. We certainly didn't defend him night after night though as he got very little incoming. No-one in Ascendancy got that kind of defense last round. Unlike VisioN, we have no facility to allow for defwhoring to the extent you suggest. If a person wasn't on to ask their friends for defence personally, or have an Ascendancy galmate on to ask for them, they got nothing. Kileman was on every single night.

However, even the kind of defense that VisioN dude got isn't sacrificial in nature. No-one gave up their individual planet rank to help him thus the integrity of the rankings for best individual planet are unaffected. Alliance defences and attacks are measured in the final Alliance scores, not the final planet scores. Even a base troll like you understands that surely?

Of course all this has nothing to do with whether such a tactic was legitimate. I have already said that I thought it was. I was also pointing out that AdmV0rlons analogy was exceptionally shit.


edit: wrong scan

Last edited by Achilles; 17 Jul 2007 at 20:38.
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 20:30   #45
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
And you lot defending your member with all you had night after night was any different?
Well, yes it is something different.
Infact i have not seen such an utterly dumb riposte in ages.
If you really do not see at least some facets of how thats different, you really should finally stop posting and making yourself look like a fool, since you have no clue whatsoever. But its not like it needed this thread to make that obvious. By now, i seriously hope you are somebody who just acts like that.


And on an unimportant sidenote: where the fsck is the connection between all of this §"$% and THE TOPIC?
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 21:07   #46
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Yes, this thread has derailed completely. I blame JBG for asking Red-'s opinion as if he was a person. Bad JBG! No biscuit!
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 21:41   #47
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Kileman defended me on a few occasions. I defended him on a few. We certainly didn't defend him night after night though as he got very little incoming. No-one in Ascendancy got that kind of defense last round. Unlike VisioN, we have no facility to allow for defwhoring to the extent you suggest. If a person wasn't on to ask their friends for defence personally, or have an Ascendancy galmate on to ask for them, they got nothing. Kileman was on every single night.

However, even the kind of defense that VisioN dude got isn't sacrificial in nature. No-one gave up their individual planet rank to help him thus the integrity of the rankings for best individual planet are unaffected. Alliance defences and attacks are measured in the final Alliance scores, not the final planet scores. Even a base troll like you understands that surely?

Of course all this has nothing to do with whether such a tactic was legitimate. I have already said that I thought it was. I was also pointing out that AdmV0rlons analogy was exceptionally shit.


edit: wrong scan

The problem is that the premise, for example, that 7 guys worked a whole round to just help Greenhills is false. The choice of Greenhills and the background to it are in the threaded link I left. The galaxy had to work for success. The bullcrap some have posted here attempting to support their lame argument is not even deserving of a response really.

2 Jun 2007, 00:02 #35
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills
To sum abit up as beeing a part of the galaxy and one of the contributers for this to work.

First I would like to say that i feel sorry for Kile and FeniX and the rest of top10.
The point with the plan wasn't to win originaly. We knew we couldn't win the nr1 gal, our alliance setup wasn't good enough to do it, activty was dropping as it usually does in the end of the round. Then mockingbird and greenhills started joking about this and me and qsp said that that sounded fun just to joke with em. Then the ball started rolling and we decided to ask the gal if we should make a little contest out of it

*So the whole gal was presented with the idea and the one with the most score the last day would get the donation and we could have fun seeing how good we could boost a planet. It was no pressure on anyone to join but everyone got exited and we had loads of fun.*

But if ppl think it wasn't effort involved then you're mistaking, we couldn't just sit around keeping our roids as the top planets did. We was garantueed much more inc and we needed to keep as many roids possible to manage to get a decent boost. Our planets with low enough value was alost far behind the top so we didn't expect to win or not even top 10.

*Then we had alot of inc one night as appoco said. Lost extremly many roids so we had to work fast to get em back. This was the easy part of the plan.*

Then the last couple of days we've been working our assess of to manage to get the resources around so we could be sure everyone would be here last day to donate. ( If someone don't know then gal fund can max be 75mill in total). We had to do it all within fewest possible ticks as we wanted it to be a surprise And you all know how it ended But i can promise that it wasn't much sleep for us either the last days *The gal did more the ever can be expected of any gal and in the end everyone showed up to help a single planet without any hope for any respectable end placement themself. You should all recive a credit if you ask me.*

__A planet, which turned out to be Greenhills__

But once again, i feel sorry for the planets fighting all round for the top spot. The intention was never to rob any of you for the glory.

It was just to get some fun into a rather dull round of PA.

Thanks to the whole gal that made this crazy plan work.
Been a plessure playing with you guys.

Sandvold

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4 Jun 2007, 14:59 #95
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
One would note that if the actions are repeated how they don't qualify as breaking the support planet rule is beyond me.


Jepp I would argue with you:P

First of all your logic is flawed and you can't quote a part of the eula without thinking true what effects it would have.

***First of all Greenhills stocked his resources in the fund as well.**** He did not know that he was the one that was going to get the resources. So the same goes for the whole gal. >>>No one knew so they played for themself and did it for themself, but Greenhills was the one to get it.<<<

2nd thing is that the support planet rule applies if it's repeated actions. This was done once. If you start useing the support planet rules within a galaxy then you could just remove galaxies altogether. Haven't you ever had a scanner in your gal who have just built a certain type of defships? If he def you with it several times then he have broken the support rule as well. Cause the defships is just a spesific task for the gals benefit. You could probably add all def ingal in the same catagory as what we did. The same goes for attacking same gal on regular raids, or alliances for that mather. You're actually providing flak for another member of your galaxy.

So i strongly disagree in your use of the support rule in this case.
It would be impossible to get to work
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 22:03   #48
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
blah blah blah vision blah blah blah vision blah blah
Actually using a member of Vision as an example would be a nice suggestion :P But yes we have very good defence and we are proud of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltaine
blah blah blah blah blah blah
Considered actually posting something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shibaMac
I blame JBG for asking Red-'s opinion as if he was a person.
Yeah never argue with a robot...
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Unread 17 Jul 2007, 22:12   #49
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-
Actually using a member of Vision as an example would be a nice suggestion :P But yes we have very good defence and we are proud of it.
That is a VisioN member, as were the 12 fleets defending it. Sending 12 fleets to defend against 3 (some Battleships and Cruisers) and totally overcovering and wasting slots is not good defence. It is worse than no defence at all. You will probably not be able to understand that though.
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Unread 18 Jul 2007, 10:41   #50
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Re: Who watches the Watchers?

If you read on in that thread AdmVorlon you'd actually have seen that I responded to all of sandvold's points piece by piece. The galaxy certainly had to work for success, even viper planets had to login and send defence back when the support planet rule was introduced. The whole support planet rule is just drivel though. Everyone supports people, even directly when they're not intending to sometimes. Either hardcore things out, provide specific rules on what you can and can't do or just allow it. Also I'm going to try and go back through this thread and separate out this discussion if my direly slow internet connection would ever hurry up.
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