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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 00:10   #1
Mistwraith
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An end to huge galaxies

While the signup numbers are small, they are a terrible plan.

I'll start with a few results and allow everyone else to put their pennies worth in :

Smaller Alliances cant cover all planets so effectively are not able to land, resulting in early blocks.

Bigger alliances think other alliances are targeting them, when in fact all they are doing is galaxies.

Top galaxies are avoided, and mid range and small get the stuffing knocked out of them on a nightly basis causing players to stop playing.

right over to the rest of you.
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 00:51   #2
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

Top galaxies are avoided usually due to key members being able to keep inc off their galaxy. (the very least tip them off to ground fleet if they do target them) the galaxies then are Fenced to have as many members in different alliances as possible.

then the Bot !exile function is used to help gauge making the Psuedo private gal by mass exiling the undesirables and getting desired gal mates at key time of exling.

Non desirables are threatened to exile or be roided down with no ingal defense and advertise this to mates for easy roids.
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 01:09   #3
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

Agree 100% with this
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 05:23   #4
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

I think it is safe to say large gals have ruined this round
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 06:16   #5
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

If you reduce galaxy size without reducing tag sizes then you will end up with situations where planets get 7/8 waves from the larger allys, to reduce galaxy sizes you also need to reduce bp/tag sizes as they are symbiotic
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 06:37   #6
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

PA just announced:
3-man buddy back with 1 late signup
60 (50 count) alliances
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 07:54   #7
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

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Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
If you reduce galaxy size without reducing tag sizes then you will end up with situations where planets get 7/8 waves from the larger allys, to reduce galaxy sizes you also need to reduce bp/tag sizes as they are symbiotic
Not at all. I think it has been shown this round that galaxies were way too big for the tag sizes.

A 60 man tag will get at best an 80% turn out on attacks. That's roughly 50 members. Now most of those will teamup in 2's, yes some won't but then some will go in 3's and 4's so it evens out. Now half of those will attack with 2 fleets so that's another 12 fleets so that's a top end of 37 attack waves on a gal. Now with 3 man bps gals will start off with 8-9 planets and probably end up at 12 max by tick 500. For the ease of maths we will say 36 attack fleets cos it's divides by 12 easier and 36/12=3. So on a decent galaxy a full tag will only lay an average of 3 waves on a planet, yes some might 4 or even 5 and some might only get 2 but it will be nowhere near the 7/8 you are crying about. This new gal/bp size is perfect for the current tag limit. Bravo appoco finally we are seeing some common sense from the pa team.

Ps. I am liking that we are getting to trial a 6 week round. I know it was a mooted idea a while back so will be intresting to see how it plays out. Wether it forces alliances not to fence sit so much
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 10:51   #8
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Ps. I am liking that we are getting to trial a 6 week round. I know it was a mooted idea a while back so will be intresting to see how it plays out. Wether it forces alliances not to fence sit so much
War is not unlike an investment. You invest some amount of value (crashed fleets) to get an increase in value growth (capped roids). The value gained through increased mining must be higher than the amount of value crashed, or the war is unprofitable.

The amount of value gained from going to war is dependent on two factors: the number of roids capped and the time you hold onto them.

There's a ceiling on the number of fleets an alliance can use to defend with. If, say, 120 fleets drains that defense completely; if you send exactly 120 fleets, then you land 0%. However, any fleet on top of those 120 will definitely land. Therefore, the more fleets you send, the higher your odds of landing, and the more roids you cap.

Round length is an important factor in determining the how long you can hold onto your roids. If you cap roids, the maximum time you can hold onto them is the remainder of the round. The shorter the round, the less time you can hold onto your roids, and therefore, the less return you can get on your investment.

The amount of value lost through crashes is dependent on a number of factors, but the one we're most interested in here is the the odds of recalling. Only attacks that are covered can crash. Therefore, increasing the odds of landing also decreases the odds of crashing: you can't crash on targets that do not get defense.


This is how shortening rounds discourages war. You must increase your return on investment (by gangbanging) or reduce your crash rate (also by gangbanging). Alternatively, just abstain from war altogether, and just fence and galraid instead. Both scenarios are undesireable for PA, in my view.


I will add two things that somewhat mitigate the above doomsday scenario:

The amount and type of warfare are not the only factors that determine how good PA is. Other effects of having shorter rounds, such as providing more frequent opportunities for newbies to sign up, might actually be good for PA.

If it's done for just one round (and that is what it looks like to me), then I doubt we'll see much change in warfare at all. These things tend to evolve over stretches of multiple rounds, because alliances are not consciously aware of the above principles. If they were, they would respond quicker to changes in factors that affect warfare in PA.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 21 Oct 2013 at 11:09.
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 11:29   #9
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

Although i understand where you are coming from in real terms in this game everything seems to be decided in week 6. Week 7 has been a dead rubber for a long time. I cant remember an alliance winning by week 5 for long and equally i cant think of an alliance bar ND who won the round in week 7 in the last 10 rounds. Take this round for example, week 6 ended on Friday, Vikings already have the ally win sewn up, which was done in week 6. 2:6 have the gal win sewn up which has happened mostly in this last week but some shocking lack of balls against them has allowed this. Golan has the planet win sewn up too, something that has happened in week 6 aswell. Starting week 6 none of these were guaranteed but coming into week 7 they all are. Which makes week 7 AGAIN a complete waste of a week.

I think the point i was trying to get across that alliance seem to fanny about during week 1-4 and then we have action weeks 5-6 and then week 7 is just cooldown and boredom, trollwaves and so on. With this in mind it should therefore make the last 2 weeks of the round quite intresting with an actual climax in week 6, rather than the anti climax we have every round atm. No one is given the chance to pull away with over 7 days to go with a 6 week round, everyone is catchable. This should push alliances off their fences and into combat. There will be a higher incentive to take a risk and commit to something earlier because there will be a real chance that if you get it right you gain get #1 and hold it. An alliance like CT for example is capable of reaching the #1 through pure attacking (something they are good at) they arent able to hold it for over a week though because they just arent good enough on defence. Dropping to a 6 week round gives those alliances below the FanG, Vikings, Ultores players a chance at glory... im excited by it
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 11:33   #10
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
If you reduce galaxy size without reducing tag sizes then you will end up with situations where planets get 7/8 waves from the larger allys, to reduce galaxy sizes you also need to reduce bp/tag sizes as they are symbiotic
I would like to see this as an opportunity for alliances to attack in battlegroups again and like the cells the IRA (active service units) had they only knew about the attack and no one outside of the cell would know about the attack.

this would help in reducing tip offs for the target gal.

Edit - this would mean the merlin/munin clones the alliances use would need modified to accommodate this
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 12:26   #11
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Although i understand where you are coming from
My post was only about warfare, not about whether shorter or longer rounds are a net good for PA. Indeed, I said exactly that: "Other effects of having shorter rounds (...) might actually be good for PA."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
in real terms in this game everything seems to be decided in week 6. Week 7 has been a dead rubber for a long time. I cant remember an alliance winning by week 5 for long and equally i cant think of an alliance bar ND who won the round in week 7 in the last 10 rounds. Take this round for example, week 6 ended on Friday, Vikings already have the ally win sewn up, which was done in week 6. 2:6 have the gal win sewn up which has happened mostly in this last week but some shocking lack of balls against them has allowed this. Golan has the planet win sewn up too, something that has happened in week 6 aswell. Starting week 6 none of these were guaranteed but coming into week 7 they all are. Which makes week 7 AGAIN a complete waste of a week.
More than a few rounds have been decided in the last week, especially top planet and top alliance. Maybe more rounds end prematurely, but early ends are certainly not universal. (Galaxy wins are indeed predictable as hell, but there are different causes for that.)

It's silly to let some rounds drag on for weeks after an alliance won, while others end while several alliances are still in the running. I don't want shorter or longer rounds. I want round length to be variable. The round should end when an alliance has clearly won. Examples of winning conditions could be 'get X% score ahead of the #2 for Y ticks' or 'make Z% of the paid planets in the universe declare you the winner' or 'the admins decide when you win'.
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 12:29   #12
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Although i understand where you are coming from in real terms in this game everything seems to be decided in week 6. Week 7 has been a dead rubber for a long time. I cant remember an alliance winning by week 5 for long and equally i cant think of an alliance bar ND who won the round in week 7 in the last 10 rounds. Take this round for example, week 6 ended on Friday, Vikings already have the ally win sewn up, which was done in week 6. 2:6 have the gal win sewn up which has happened mostly in this last week but some shocking lack of balls against them has allowed this. Golan has the planet win sewn up too, something that has happened in week 6 aswell. Starting week 6 none of these were guaranteed but coming into week 7 they all are. Which makes week 7 AGAIN a complete waste of a week.
About 3 of the Ultores wins that happened in the last ten rounds were decided in the final week.
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 16:15   #13
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
some random numbers thrown together to make me look smart
I know this may surprise you but it's not just about the top allys,
With 3 in bp plus 1 late signup gals are probably going to max out at 10 so using your marvellous maths 50 fleets at 10 planets = 5 waves per planet, but oh wait the late signup is under our bash and their is also a scanner and cov-op planet in gal so 10 becomes 7 so now it's 50 fleets on 7 planets = 7 waves per planet. QED
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 16:36   #14
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

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Originally Posted by Shev View Post
About 3 of the Ultores wins that happened in the last ten rounds were decided in the final week.
Both the ND wins, and the FAnG win too. And it seems this round is going down to the wire aswell.
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 17:11   #15
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
I know this may surprise you but it's not just about the top allys,
With 3 in bp plus 1 late signup gals are probably going to max out at 10 so using your marvellous maths 50 fleets at 10 planets = 5 waves per planet, but oh wait the late signup is under our bash and their is also a scanner and cov-op planet in gal so 10 becomes 7 so now it's 50 fleets on 7 planets = 7 waves per planet. QED
Why would you keep someone who only scans in your galaxy? That's just dead weight. Once a scanner starts getting ships, they become targets soon enough.

A cov opper is clearly not dead weight, but the other planets will gain more value that way. More attacking fleets on planets that all got 500k extra value does not seem entirely unreasonable, and in fact is necessary because their home fleet is bigger.

Something similar applies to late signers. They won't get incs at the beginning, but at the pace they're growing they'll soon contribute, and get targeted with the rest of the planets. It's a galaxy's investment in the late round, basically.

That brings us back to the 5 waves per planet number, by the time your galaxy is good enough to warrant enough attention for a full alliance to raid it, which is a little on the high side, perhaps, but not terribly so. It's worth playing like this for a few rounds to see, in my opinion.

With all the advantages galaxies have had over the past 10-15 rounds, it's about time alliances got a little piece of the action.
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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 17:41   #16
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
I know this may surprise you but it's not just about the top allys,
With 3 in bp plus 1 late signup gals are probably going to max out at 10 so using your marvellous maths 50 fleets at 10 planets = 5 waves per planet, but oh wait the late signup is under our bash and their is also a scanner and cov-op planet in gal so 10 becomes 7 so now it's 50 fleets on 7 planets = 7 waves per planet. QED
You obviously didn't read what I posted. 50 fleets yes 50 waves no. For everyone 1 man attack on your gal there will be a 3-4 man wave. I averaged it out at 2 to give the top end of a raid. Even if we went above the 25 waves this would produced and say 30 waves of incomming that is still an average of 4 waves on 7 planets. And that's with every member of the alliance attacking which just doesn't happen. Even if half of them attacked with a second fleet it only adds another wave on bringing it up to the 5 I originally stated. When you add to that that every alliance that has 50 members uses attack pages that have at max 6 waves (nd I believe, munin has 5) then you just aren't gonna get these 7-8 waves on a planet.

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Unread 21 Oct 2013, 20:54   #17
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

I hadn't noticed the reduction to 6 weeks (I probably had other things on my mind). Mz has already explained (at considerable length) how this will discourage risk-taking and make the game even less interesting. I had already made that point in another thread and even suggested that we scrap the (stupid) Christmas round and increase the remaining rounds to 8 weels each.

Ah well!
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Unread 22 Oct 2013, 12:33   #18
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

allow ingal attacks... much more fun.
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Unread 22 Oct 2013, 13:27   #19
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

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allow ingal attacks... much more fun.
I had a bad experience been my gal's roid farm

I first played PA in r2-5 (memory has failed me) but it was for 1 round. where you could attack ingal. My gal asked me to be a roid farm for them just for them to be farmed off legion at the time. (there goes my hard work)
I didn't play PA again till late r13
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Unread 25 Oct 2013, 09:28   #20
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Why would you keep someone who only scans in your galaxy? That's just dead weight. Once a scanner starts getting ships, they become targets soon enough.

A cov opper is clearly not dead weight, but the other planets will gain more value that way. More attacking fleets on planets that all got 500k extra value does not seem entirely unreasonable, and in fact is necessary because their home fleet is bigger.

Something similar applies to late signers. They won't get incs at the beginning, but at the pace they're growing they'll soon contribute, and get targeted with the rest of the planets. It's a galaxy's investment in the late round, basically.

That brings us back to the 5 waves per planet number, by the time your galaxy is good enough to warrant enough attention for a full alliance to raid it, which is a little on the high side, perhaps, but not terribly so. It's worth playing like this for a few rounds to see, in my opinion.

With all the advantages galaxies have had over the past 10-15 rounds, it's about time alliances got a little piece of the action.
in Silent But Deadly (round 42 I think) we kept a scanner and actually got him in the top 100 ... and our gal won. Scanners can ressy donate if nothing else and help the rest of the gal.
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Unread 25 Oct 2013, 09:32   #21
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

Exactly. Once your scanner gets ships, he becomes a target just like anyone else. If scanners never get ships or research bankhacking, there's no point for galaxies to keep them around. If you choose to keep him and get more incs on your other planets as a result, then that's you brought it on yourself.

P.S. I like that you remember round names but not numbers.
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Unread 25 Oct 2013, 10:16   #22
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

Aye it was r42 MM
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Unread 25 Oct 2013, 18:01   #23
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Although i understand where you are coming from in real terms in this game everything seems to be decided in week 6. Week 7 has been a dead rubber for a long time. I cant remember an alliance winning by week 5 for long and equally i cant think of an alliance bar ND who won the round in week 7 in the last 10 rounds. Take this round for example, week 6 ended on Friday, Vikings already have the ally win sewn up, which was done in week 6. 2:6 have the gal win sewn up which has happened mostly in this last week but some shocking lack of balls against them has allowed this. Golan has the planet win sewn up too, something that has happened in week 6 aswell. Starting week 6 none of these were guaranteed but coming into week 7 they all are. Which makes week 7 AGAIN a complete waste of a week.
Vikings have ally win sewn up in week 6.
Golan has planet win sewn up in week 6.

You sure?
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Unread 25 Oct 2013, 18:05   #24
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It's silly to let some rounds drag on for weeks after an alliance won, while others end while several alliances are still in the running. I don't want shorter or longer rounds. I want round length to be variable. The round should end when an alliance has clearly won. Examples of winning conditions could be 'get X% score ahead of the #2 for Y ticks' or 'make Z% of the paid planets in the universe declare you the winner' or 'the admins decide when you win'.

Whilst it is potentially a good idea to have more than x% of score, that also impacts on gal/planet wins, so could bring in another level of tactics (for those gals/planets who stay small but roid heavy etc).

I dont like the admin idea, then it comes down to someone's opinion which stops people planning for stuff like 3 fleet attacking/defending/spending res etc
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Unread 25 Oct 2013, 18:10   #25
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Re: An end to huge galaxies

The particular winning condition we/they pick is at this point not too important. They're just examples. It's the variable rounds concept I wanted to get across.
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