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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 12:36   #1
Osidiradadumpf
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Structure Killers

I got the distinct impression that more and more people are using SK's in galaxy raids... I got already hit twice in this round (tick 593) and I expect at least one more attempt..

Can anyone explain to me, WHY?? I mean if you land, you will get the roids anyway, and destroying Structures doesn't do any good on your own score. Constructs are getting quite expensive if you have 80 or so.. (now costing approx one full tick of res, even with an high number of roids)..
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 12:39   #2
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Re: Structure Killers

Welcome to Planetarion, a war game.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 12:43   #3
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Re: Structure Killers

are you really complaining that ppls use a certain type of ship offered by the game ?
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 12:53   #4
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Re: Structure Killers

In all fairness, the use of structure killers does upset the balance of the game somewhat. Before their widespread use, it wasn't a problem if you lost a couple of waves of roids every now and then. Now you get set back much further than before.

That said, complaining that people use the means offered to them is shit.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 13:01   #5
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
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Really?? What does the attacker gain by killing my structs?? Does he got XP?? No. Does he gain score?? No.

He doesn't gain ANYTHING. He got the roids and then as an extra kick he destroys the planets infrastructure.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 13:03   #6
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Re: Structure Killers

The attacker gains that his opponent has less structures, thus less means to gather score, thus that the attacker has a higher chance of beating him.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 13:14   #7
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
The attacker gains that his opponent has less structures, thus less means to gather score, thus that the attacker has a higher chance of beating him.
Ih thats why an attacker who is in top100 attacks an target which is in 300-500 with SK's?? And thats why I have seen 400k value players being hit by SK's. (tick 600 roughly).

I always feel sorry when I spot somebody fleet being destroyed because he hasn't had the oppertunity to send them away.. But if *this* is the way the game should be played...
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 13:16   #8
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Re: Structure Killers

maybe you should try some like www.neopets.com

i used to play it, good game, try to avoid the battlezone though
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 14:39   #9
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osidiradadumpf
Ih thats why an attacker who is in top100 attacks an target which is in 300-500 with SK's?? And thats why I have seen 400k value players being hit by SK's. (tick 600 roughly).

I always feel sorry when I spot somebody fleet being destroyed because he hasn't had the oppertunity to send them away.. But if *this* is the way the game should be played...
As much as I dislike structurekillers and dislike the morons being all smart assed about their response to you, I have to admit that sadly structurekillers is a part of the game. If you want to try to get this removed from the game, you should try talking to the PA Team, people like Appocomaster and the other creators very rarely reply and care for whats being said on the forums. Try #support if you want to talk to them.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 15:00   #10
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Re: Structure Killers

You can say what you want about SKs, but the fact of the matter is this round they are being used by several allies as part of their legitimate war activities. There is a major fight going on right now over distorters and amps. SKs are being used to try and destroy both scanners and distorter whores. This is a position that I've argued in other threads, but in this context SKs are a very legit tactic and I'm a bit surprised they have not been used heavily in this context before, but I guess someone finally got the memo. The unfortunate consequence of this move has been that these same folks who are using the SKs against their opponents have also got in the habit of sending them against other targets who they are not strictly at war. Hence your current complaint. Hard as it may be to accept as said above this is a war game, which means even semi innocent bystanders sometimes get caught in the horrors of war. Always remember war is hell, therefor why should planetarion be any different?
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 15:19   #11
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Re: Structure Killers

Some possible ideas:

- If a fleet contains any pod ships then structure killers should not fire. If you want to kill a planets constructions then send a specific fleet to do it. So you'd have to intentionally attack a target with a specific fleet instead of just throwing in extra ships for fun.

- Change the % of structures which can be killed according to the size and value of the defender and attacker, similar to XP. Attacking upwards could take a huge chunk of structures (25%?), whilst attacking someone below could be restricted (5%?).
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 16:09   #12
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
Hence your current complaint. Hard as it may be to accept as said above this is a war game, which means even semi innocent bystanders sometimes get caught in the horrors of war. Always remember war is hell, therefor why should planetarion be any different?
In fairness prior to this round, except on certain occasions, I've always considered sks to be primarily used by the lower ranking alliances, albeit almost certainly undeliberately. Higher ranked players largely thought of sks as a waste of resources. Speaking primarily for my own alliance I'm pretty sure that this round the number of structure killers being sent at unaligned planets is still relatively small.

Quote:
- If a fleet contains any pod ships then structure killers should not fire. If you want to kill a planets constructions then send a specific fleet to do it. So you'd have to intentionally attack a target with a specific fleet instead of just throwing in extra ships for fun.
This is unfair on those attacking dist-whores really. People attacking scanners really don't give a crap if they cap 30 roids but those attacking the dist-whores are also looking to take their roids.

Quote:
- Change the % of structures which can be killed according to the size and value of the defender and attacker, similar to XP. Attacking upwards could take a huge chunk of structures (25%?), whilst attacking someone below could be restricted (5%?).
Or we could start handing out money for sucking at PA or something.
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Unread 5 Feb 2008, 16:27   #13
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is unfair on those attacking dist-whores really. People attacking scanners really don't give a crap if they cap 30 roids but those attacking the dist-whores are also looking to take their roids.
It's only unbalanced in the short term.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 00:00   #14
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Re: Structure Killers

It's actually nice that people are starting to use them more strategically. It shows that players give more for their alliances and less for their own short term goals, as SK's aren't that a good idea for a single planet (The resources can be spent better on def/att ships etc)

Just think about the effect loosing dists or fc's has on planets. You might loose 500-600k of each resource just in construction costs, not to mention the loss of mining income or strategic value in being unscannabale. Put that on a alliance level and you have a powerful weapon.

If you're going to take away means to destroy or hamper constructions, you need to lower their strategic worth too.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 10:25   #15
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
It's actually nice that people are starting to use them more strategically. It shows that players give more for their alliances and less for their own short term goals, as SK's aren't that a good idea for a single planet (The resources can be spent better on def/att ships etc)
Personally I think it's more likely most people act on the impulse "you kill mine, I kill yours" than that they had some recent strategical insight.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 10:27   #16
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osidiradadumpf
Ih thats why an attacker who is in top100 attacks an target which is in 300-500 with SK's?? And thats why I have seen 400k value players being hit by SK's. (tick 600 roughly).

I always feel sorry when I spot somebody fleet being destroyed because he hasn't had the oppertunity to send them away.. But if *this* is the way the game should be played...
I've always said that the way to bring down a opponent is not to kill their top planets. These guys are active, they get def, and you have to use far more fleets to manage this than it's worth. Strategically, it's a waste of resources.

However, if you kill the grunts of the alliance, the people who defend the top players, then you knock out the feet of the giant, and he falls. Thus SK'ing even low value players is tactically sound, since you reduce their ability to produce fleet and you demotivate them. A demotivated player is less likely to continue playing actively, and as such you've striken a permanent blow to the alliance defences.

I'll probably get slandered for voicing such an calculated opinion, but the fact of the matter is this is a wargame, not CivPlanet. I play the war, as I've always done, adapting to the circumstances in order to ultimately defeat my opponent. Anything else is meaningless to me.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 10:41   #17
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Re: Structure Killers

I understand your reasoning, and from a purely military point of view you're absolutely correct*, but then it can be argued whether making people quit the game (either for the round or for a longer period) is something that's good for Planetarion (and your own fun) in the long term.

That said, I do not feel SKs should somehow be crippled just because some people feel the need to cry every time something bad happens to their planet.



* Although one should not underestimate the demotivation that follows the successful takedown of one or more enemy top planets, not to mention the fact that if you're raping an alliance anyway, you might as well hit the top planets as well, if only to draw defence away from your real targets.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 12:37   #18
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
I'll probably get slandered for voicing such an calculated opinion, but the fact of the matter is this is a wargame, not CivPlanet. I play the war, as I've always done, adapting to the circumstances in order to ultimately defeat my opponent. Anything else is meaningless to me.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 12:57   #19
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
I'll probably get slandered for voicing such an calculated opinion, but the fact of the matter is this is a wargame, not CivPlanet. I play the war, as I've always done, adapting to the circumstances in order to ultimately defeat my opponent. Anything else is meaningless to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA MANUAL
Welcome to the Planetarion R25 User Guide

Planetarion is a space-themed game, which has won numerous awards over its previous rounds, and has players from all over the world.

In Planetarion you control a single planet and its ships in the vast wilderness of the universe. Your planet is in a galaxy, and it is up to you and your fellow players to make your galaxy work together to overcome the various dangers from outside. A galaxy that does not work together is a target. As well as playing together in galaxies, people also join together into alliances, to assist each other in dominating the universe.
I guess either the manual needs updating or you are just perceiving the game as a war game. Which is okay, but still not correct. At least not by the manual.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:06   #20
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I guess either the manual needs updating or you are just perceiving the game as a war game. Which is okay, but still not correct. At least not by the manual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PA Manual
Welcome to the Planetarion R25 User Guide

Planetarion is a space-themed game, which has won numerous awards over its previous rounds, and has players from all over the world.

In Planetarion you control a single planet and its ships in the vast wilderness of the universe. Your planet is in a galaxy, and it is up to you and your fellow players to make your galaxy work together to overcome the various dangers from outside. A galaxy that does not work together is a target. As well as playing together in galaxies, people also join together into alliances, to assist each other in dominating the universe.
Either you were dropped on your head as a child, or you've developed your stupidity as a self-defense mechanism to shield you from the harsh reality of.. well.. reality.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:11   #21
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Re: Structure Killers

Haha, quoting the PA manual to win arguments over the internets.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:16   #22
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Either you were dropped on your head as a child, or you've developed your stupidity as a self-defense mechanism to shield you from the harsh reality of.. well.. reality.
Can you tell me where it says war game in the manual?

Please, don't create other arguments so that you think you can "fake" winning another one.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:18   #23
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Haha, quoting the PA manual to win arguments over the internets.

Which in this case is highly relevant as the manual actually tells new people what they are to expect from playing this game.

Feel free to meet every argument with inept babble as pr normal though.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:25   #24
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Which in this case is highly relevant as the manual actually tells new people what they are to expect from playing this game.

Feel free to meet every argument with inept babble as pr normal though.
'Space' is not a game, son. Ask NASA.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:26   #25
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
'Space' is not a game, son. Ask NASA.
Well, if you bothered to read further down in the manual it says:

Planetarion is a real time strategy, in which the action is divided into 'ticks'.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:27   #26
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Haha, quoting the PA manual to win arguments over the internets.
I just thought it humorous that he quoted something that contradicted the point he was trying to make.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:29   #27
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Well, if you bothered to read further down in the manual it says:

Planetarion is a real time strategy, in which the action is divided into 'ticks'.
Again, since when has 'strategy' been a game?

Google search here.

If Google can't find it, no one can.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:30   #28
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Which in this case is highly relevant as the manual actually tells new people what they are to expect from playing this game.

Feel free to meet every argument with inept babble as pr normal though.
Something else that's highly relevant is that it's wrong on more than one point, thus that I wouldn't trust it so implicitly. On a sidenote, I find it strange that you seem to always only read the posts in which I'm not investing more than 1 minute of my plentiful yet precious time. Feel free to meet this post with another useless response.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:31   #29
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Again, since when has 'strategy' been a game? Google search here.
Its obvious that you're just on a wind up. Please refer from posting ever again.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:34   #30
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Its obvious that you're just on a wind up. Please refer from posting ever again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dictionary.com
re·fer Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -ferred, -fer·ring.
–verb (used with object)
1. to direct for information or anything required: He referred me to books on astrology.
2. to direct the attention or thoughts of: The asterisk refers the reader to a footnote.
3. to hand over or submit for information, consideration, decision, etc.: to refer the argument to arbitration.
4. to assign to a class, period, etc.; regard as belonging or related.
5. to have relation; relate; apply.
–verb (used without object)
6. to direct attention, as a reference mark does.
7. to have recourse or resort; turn, as for aid or information: to refer to one's notes.
8. to make reference or allusion: The author referred to his teachers twice in his article.
It's just as well you didn't say 'refrain', otherwise I may genuinely have made an effort to do ask you asked!
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:37   #31
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
It's just as well you didn't say 'refrain', otherwise I may genuinely have made an effort to do ask you asked!
So now you've proven my point even further, instead of arguing on the matter at hand, you decide to go on a grammar crusade. I love internet, it really brings out the best of people.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:38   #32
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Re: Structure Killers

you are all terrible at the internet
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 13:42   #33
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
So now you've proven my point even further, instead of arguing on the matter at hand, you decide to go on a grammar crusade. I love internet, it really brings out the best of people.
That's "I love the internet", Kargool. If it makes you feel any better, the internet doesn't feel the same way.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 15:55   #34
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Re: Structure Killers

Kargools from Norway, cut him some slack
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 18:38   #35
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Re: Structure Killers

Back on topic: Structure killers are part of playing PA, it is allowed, and their use is justified merely by their existence. Stop crying about damage to your planet, your fleetcatched fleet, and how mean everyone is by attacking you, or your friend, or your neighbour, or the sister of the mother of the priest, and accept it as it is. If you do not agree: start a thread on the suggestions forum and present some sensible arguments for removing an element of the game.

On a sidenote: Kenny, could you please stop scorning people who are posting here in English, and of whom English is not the native language, but still do a good job in making sensible posts in comparison to, for instance, Bbud2? Thank you very much in advance.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 18:59   #36
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Re: Structure Killers

Hey guys

If PA isn't a wargame why don't we all help each other to get some roids that would be a nice game
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 19:04   #37
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Re: Structure Killers

Kargool, have fun: http://dan-ball.jp/en/javagame/planet/
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 19:11   #38
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Hey guys

If PA isn't a wargame why don't we all help each other to get some roids that would be a nice game
you could just init and pnap the entire universe like other people that play this game, or roid multi's like some of the other people.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 20:09   #39
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
Kargools from Norway, cut him some slack
If we don't teach, he will never learn. I post purely for the benefit of Kargool.

When he is wrong, I point out why.

When he is an idiot, I make him feel bad as so he doesn't make the same mistake again.

Do not misinterpret my posts as hostility, I am a nice guy.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 22:06   #40
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA MANUAL
Welcome to the Planetarion R25 User Guide

Planetarion is a space-themed game, which has won numerous awards over its previous rounds, and has players from all over the world.

In Planetarion you control a single planet and its ships in the vast wilderness of the universe. Your planet is in a galaxy, and it is up to you and your fellow players to make your galaxy work together to overcome the various dangers from outside. A galaxy that does not work together is a target. As well as playing together in galaxies, people also join together into alliances, to assist each other in dominating the universe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I guess either the manual needs updating or you are just perceiving the game as a war game. Which is okay, but still not correct. At least not by the manual.
Let's have a look at what that actually says shall we?

1.) Dangers from outside - Sounds to me like this game includes some form of hostility in between players?
2.) A galaxy that does not work together is a target - Target typically means that you are the receiver of some form of aggression or attack, and since there's no AI opponents, that means the aggressions will come from other players. Affirms my conclusions of 1.
3.) Dominating the universe - To dominate is an aggressive action, it implies subjugating others to your will, which implies aggressions by yourself against other players of the game. Once more underlines the previously stated nature of the game.

As has also been mentioned in this thread, the manual describes the game as a Real-Time Strategy. RTS-games are generally war-games in which players battle each other over resources to enable them to completely destroy their enemy, infact most often to a point where the opposing player or AI can no longer play the game in any form(until the game is reset). This infact would imply a even harsher game than what I put forth, and what PA ultimately is, as no player can be completely removed from the game through means of aggression.

As you see, even if it is not explicitly stated that PA is a wargame, it is implied in no uncertain terms. Furthermore this is underscored by the fact that there is no trading-system for winning of the game(not referring to simply trading resources between two players at a loss for both). There are support-roles, however these are warlike roles which can not be seen as individual efforts, as the war that is being fought is not an individual one but one which focuses on teamplay, as the section of the manual you quoted also states.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 22:09   #41
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I understand your reasoning, and from a purely military point of view you're absolutely correct*, but then it can be argued whether making people quit the game (either for the round or for a longer period) is something that's good for Planetarion (and your own fun) in the long term.
Actually, I think this is a flawed argument that is voiced so highly by some members of the community who can not and will not change their stance or are open to debate that's its become "truth" (I do not mean you Mz <3).
Personally, brining more war and less sim-planet is what this game needs. It's much more fun to be active and at war than just doing galraids and roidharvesting. You need to think more, plan more and be overall smarter to win.

I think making people spend less time is a good thing (prelaunch, construction queuing, able to stop/start research etc) but that is not the same as making it more friendly. I don't play this game to hold hands, nor do I play it to just Pnap and launch, launch, def, launch launch ad infinitum.

Killing off planets might make them stop playing the round, but if it stops them coming back they're not the type of players we need.
This is not to say that 6 wave sk'ing on a 250 roid new player is a good thing, but if we get players who are more focused on teamwork and alliances that will stop as well, as it's not strategically sound for winning a round.
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