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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 09:04   #451
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Veedeejem! View Post
Seem to remember Vertonghen doing that also this season or previous season though
Could be, but that's not what I meant ;-)
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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 09:09   #452
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Btw, is it me or does entire Holland still blame the referee?

I mean, I understand the initial reaction (of frustration and dissapointment over losing the final).

But 2 days later and they still believe Webb ruined the game for them because of:

- Goal was scored after a corner was not awarded to Holland --> Correct
- Iniesta scored while he should have received red for pushing Van Bommel --> Correct

Now, I don't know if they invented television in The Netherlands yet, but anyone with eyes and a television would have seen the karate kick from De Jong, the disgusting tackles and kicks from Van Bommel and the 2nd yellow card for Robben which wasn't awarded (while Xavi received a yellow card for the same action).

Now, everyone agrees that the referee made alot of bad calls, but to STILL blame the referee for losing a final ...

It's a shame, they might aswell have been proud to be the 2nd best team in the world. We (Belgium) would be lyric when we can take part in a WC, even if we lose all matches :-)
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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 10:35   #453
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Very true, allthough as a keeper, you don't expect to receive such a ball when the opposing team is returning the ball to your team.
60 yard lobs aren't exactly something that can in any situation come as a great surprise, if you're paying any attention you should at some point of the flight realize that there's a ball coming, and with the physical properties of a ball, it's very likely to also bounce.
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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 10:45   #454
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
60 yard lobs aren't exactly something that can in any situation come as a great surprise, if you're paying any attention you should at some point of the flight realize that there's a ball coming, and with the physical properties of a ball, it's very likely to also bounce.
Yeah, but was the bounce (and probably missjudgement of it) that caused the problem :-)

Either way, it wouldn't be the first time that a worldclass keeper makes such a blunder during a WC final (Kahn giving the ball to Ronaldo in WC 2002). Just like Casillas now, he got awarded as best keeper of the WC back then.

Guess that's the nature of the job aye. If you're a keeper and you screw up, it's a goal. If an attacker does **** all the entire match (see: Torres) then it takes 4 games to finally put him on the bench at the start of a game.
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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 10:50   #455
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Yeah. Very ingrateful task all in all, goalkeeping. I used to do it when I was a kid. I think it's really a matter of perspective though, I don't think most keepers think of it like outsiders would.
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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 10:52   #456
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Yeah. Very ingrateful task all in all, goalkeeping.
I don't know. Taking a penalty makes your a hero though, or beating a player one on one.

Example: The celebrations in Madrid: Most people were yelling the names of Casillas and Iniesta (scoring the winning goal). Far less yelled for Villa, while he made 5/8 Spanish goals :-)

I've played a keeper for 2 years when I played soccer. 3 years as a left midfielder, 2 years as keeper. I liked it, keeping.
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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 11:20   #457
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
I don't know. Taking a penalty makes your a hero though, or beating a player one on one.

Yes, it's easy to say that the guy standing up to take the shot has the biggest pressure to convert. However, in terms of say penalty shootouts, the keepers are the ones that take penalties five times are the keepers. I went through a few in the 13 or so I played, they're definitely the moment to stand out.

The role's always the sort that you're at best cleaning after the messes of other people. If you can't do that, you're generally fine off by outside pressure. If you create messes yourself, there's rarely anyone to pull you out. Casillas and Stekelenburg both bailed their respective teams out a few times in the final. If Villa shoots an obvious ball wide in the box, people will shrug and go "oh well you can't always hit it in". If Casillas had fumbled a ball in in Green'esque style, Marca would've butchered him no matter what (see: England - USA and the outfield's failure and the goalkeeper's failure and the party involved that inevitably took the heat).

Goalkeepers are the lenders of last resort in the 90 minutes. Obviously, you've got the chances of being a big hero, but you're also most prone to being the biggest disappointment.
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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 11:27   #458
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Goalkeepers are the lenders of last resort in the 90 minutes. Obviously, you've got the chances of being a big hero, but you're also most prone to being the biggest disappointment.
Yeah exactly. No position on a football field is as crucial as the goalkeeper.

A striker needs to score, but he can often count on a fellow striker or his midfielders to score.

A defender needs to prevent the opposition to make a goal, but he got 3 other defenders helping him with that.

A keeper however has no help during a penalty or a 1 on 1 situation.

Having said that, during a penalty shootout, as a keeper you have nothing to lose because scoring a penalty is regarded as normal.
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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 11:31   #459
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

I only had to deal with about 10 penalties (never did a penalty shootout) during a game. And I only stopped 1 (not counting those hitting the post or going wide).
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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 17:23   #460
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

VDM, you are wrong on Vertonghen doing it again.

Kjeldoran: stop trying to annoy Dutch people. And you are biased as hell. Stop insulting Dutch people. And stop brabbling in a poor attempt to start a discussion.

I think, as a Dutch, that the final was quite even and it should have ended in penalties. I found it an exciting game. The Dutch players were ruthless. The referee was a shitty piece of crap. I think he should be suspended from refereeing a game ever again. I saw Spain play acting a lot. I saw Spain getting away with more than the Dutch players. I think Webb is an awfull piece of shit, to repeat, and inconsistent as hell. He f*cked up the game.

And to take your argument away: yes De Jong deserved to be sent off. I don't know about Bommel. Can't remember that one.

At the end Spain won and it felt bad, really really bad! If only Robben scored... It would have been undeserved actually. It should have f*cking finished in penalties.

If Spain would have been really much better I would be less devastated. However, it felt like we had a chance. To say, Robben had two...
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Unread 13 Jul 2010, 17:26   #461
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Oh btw... they (the Dutch team) had a cruise through the canals of Amsterdam today... It was broadcasted live and shit. And I think it was an idiotic idea. The second place is the first loser. No need to celebrate that!

A simple homage on Museum Square would have been enough. After all, being such a small country the second place isn't that bad :P
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Unread 23 Jul 2010, 09:19   #462
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
VDM, you are wrong on Vertonghen doing it again.

Kjeldoran: stop trying to annoy Dutch people. And you are biased as hell. Stop insulting Dutch people. And stop brabbling in a poor attempt to start a discussion.

I think, as a Dutch, that the final was quite even and it should have ended in penalties. I found it an exciting game. The Dutch players were ruthless. The referee was a shitty piece of crap. I think he should be suspended from refereeing a game ever again. I saw Spain play acting a lot. I saw Spain getting away with more than the Dutch players. I think Webb is an awfull piece of shit, to repeat, and inconsistent as hell. He f*cked up the game.

And to take your argument away: yes De Jong deserved to be sent off. I don't know about Bommel. Can't remember that one.

At the end Spain won and it felt bad, really really bad! If only Robben scored... It would have been undeserved actually. It should have f*cking finished in penalties.

If Spain would have been really much better I would be less devastated. However, it felt like we had a chance. To say, Robben had two...
Haha, hilarious. How am I insulting Dutch people? For stating what EVERYONE saw? That both De Jong as Van Bommel should have been sent off? Lol, even your own journalists admitted that. So how come you're one of the few that sees it differently?

Yeah, the referee was horrible. Mainly because he failed to be consequent at the start. Should have done so, Van Bommel or De Jong would have been sent off and the players would stop making dirty faults.

And I know Spanish players did quite some play-acting, but that is far less worse then doing a karate kick in someone's stomach if you ask me.

I think the victory was deserved, eventhough it was a shit game to behold.

You call me biassed, which I am, but boy ... you're equally biassed here.
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Unread 23 Jul 2010, 09:21   #463
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
Oh btw... they (the Dutch team) had a cruise through the canals of Amsterdam today... It was broadcasted live and shit. And I think it was an idiotic idea. The second place is the first loser. No need to celebrate that!

A simple homage on Museum Square would have been enough. After all, being such a small country the second place isn't that bad :P
Lol, you think ending 2nd isn't worth celebrating? Your team is the 2nd best team in the world. I think that's worth quite alot tbh. It sure deserves celebration.

What was lame was Argentina players being celebrated for their WC ... because they always applied attacking football. Sure, but you see where that brought them
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Unread 23 Jul 2010, 13:25   #464
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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And I know Spanish players did quite some play-acting, but that is far less worse then doing a karate kick in someone's stomach if you ask me.
Putting them into what's worse and what's less worse is simply a preferential decision, since they're both a) against the spirit of the game (here stating "fair play"), and b) rules of the game.
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Unread 23 Jul 2010, 13:41   #465
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Putting them into what's worse and what's less worse is simply a preferential decision, since they're both a) against the spirit of the game (here stating "fair play"), and b) rules of the game.
In terms of fair play, you're correct. In terms of personal safety, I rather have my opponent play-acting all the time (which would annoy the hell out of me) rather then having his foot ending up in my stommach.

But that's personal preference. I'm no fan of pain tbh.
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Unread 23 Jul 2010, 13:53   #466
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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In terms of fair play, you're correct. In terms of personal safety, I rather have my opponent play-acting all the time (which would annoy the hell out of me) rather then having his foot ending up in my stommach.
I would rather not annoy the hell out of someone in a game of physical contact sport where a lot of emotion are at stake. It might result in unyieldy contact. I'm also correct in the rules part. Both play acting (despite what the Spanish might think) and violent conduct are against the rules (and even in WC 2010 I can recall two people being booked for play acting, where one of them - Johnson - probably wasn't, and the other - Özil - definitely was).
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Unread 23 Jul 2010, 14:11   #467
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I would rather not annoy the hell out of someone in a game of physical contact sport where a lot of emotion are at stake. It might result in unyieldy contact. I'm also correct in the rules part. Both play acting (despite what the Spanish might think) and violent conduct are against the rules (and even in WC 2010 I can recall two people being booked for play acting, where one of them - Johnson - probably wasn't, and the other - Özil - definitely was).
I don't argue the fact that you're correct. I'm just saying I rather have my opponent annoying me and insulting me (for example) then him to kick me in t he stomach.

I've played football for several years, I still do (indoor only nowadays). So I know what it is to play a contact sport. Personally I deal alot better with insults, irritating and annoying behavoir then with having someone physically hurting me. Probably because I'm not very large or strong.
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Unread 23 Jul 2010, 15:21   #468
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Unread 24 Jul 2010, 18:28   #469
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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I don't argue the fact that you're correct. I'm just saying I rather have my opponent annoying me and insulting me (for example) then him to kick me in t he stomach.

WELL HELLO

In before your random arguments, I'm certain Zidane there would disagree with you on the violent conduct being far worse than insults, since well!

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Unread 26 Jul 2010, 09:28   #470
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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WELL HELLO

In before your random arguments, I'm certain Zidane there would disagree with you on the violent conduct being far worse than insults, since well!
Your point being? I'm telling you what I WOULD VALUE AS WORSE. I'm not Zidane, I don't care what his opinion on this is.

Personally I rather have them tell me my sister is a whore then them kicking me in the stomach. Because words don't harm me. But that's my approach, maybe others do get offended and rather receive a kick in the stomach.

Or are you gonna argue now about my personal opinion?
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Unread 26 Jul 2010, 12:08   #471
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Wow, you guys are still at it.
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Unread 26 Jul 2010, 12:25   #472
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Wow, you guys are still at it.
We have nearly 4 more years to be "at it" aye ;-)
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Unread 26 Jul 2010, 22:42   #473
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Your point being? I'm not Zidane, I don't care what his opinion on this is.

Or are you gonna argue now about my personal opinion?
No. I'm simply going to say nobody here is you hence they don't care what your opinion is, hence, you can save us from "opinions". Cheers!




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Wow, you guys are still at it.
He makes noises when you push buttons.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 09:18   #474
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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No. I'm simply going to say nobody here is you hence they don't care what your opinion is, hence, you can save us from "opinions". Cheers!
Lol, you're kidding right? This is a forum. Most here evolves around opinions. All your posts in this thread is your perception on things, hence your opinion.

And now you're telling me that we shouldn't post our opinions on a forum or thread which evolves mainly around opinions?

If you don't want to read or know my opinion, then don't and be quiet. Nobody here forces you to reply.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 09:54   #475
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Lol, you're kidding right? This is a forum. Most here evolves around opinions. All your posts in this thread is your perception on things, hence your opinion.
So, essentially, your argument comes back to you posting on a forum, which you acknowledge builds around opinions, or at very least subjective claims (say, "because I'm a Spain fanboy, I think Spain breaking rules is no biggie, but Spain's opponents breaking rules is a big deal"). Then, you proceed to claim that you don't really care about other people's opinions.

Let me re-iterate it to you very simply, since it seems my message just isn't breaking through.

First, you acknowledge that the discussion is mainly about opinions.
Second, you bring out your own personal opinion.
Third, you establish that you don't care about other people's opinions.

So why is it exactly that you're participating in the first place? Because of some narcissistic need to write down your own "opinion" on a medium you agree is vastly about opinions, yet only to decide you don't care about other people's opinions? Perhaps you're stroking yourself while reading your own opinion and simply skimming through other people's posts without even really reading them just to be able to re-post your own opinion? (The latter as we've already established in the past of this thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjel5
If you don't want to read or know my opinion, then don't and be quiet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjel5
I don't care what his opinion on this is.
I find you, in all your self-imposed self-righteousness, quite an intersting creature of narcissism. I suggest you heed your own advice; if don't care what people's opinions are, don't and be quiet. As you've already established that you don't care about other people's opinions, how about you just proceed to the latter.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 10:16   #476
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
So, essentially, your argument comes back to you posting on a forum, which you acknowledge builds around opinions, or at very least subjective claims (say, "because I'm a Spain fanboy, I think Spain breaking rules is no biggie, but Spain's opponents breaking rules is a big deal"). Then, you proceed to claim that you don't really care about other people's opinions.

Let me re-iterate it to you very simply, since it seems my message just isn't breaking through.

First, you acknowledge that the discussion is mainly about opinions.
Second, you bring out your own personal opinion.
Third, you establish that you don't care about other people's opinions.

So why is it exactly that you're participating in the first place? Because of some narcissistic need to write down your own "opinion" on a medium you agree is vastly about opinions, yet only to decide you don't care about other people's opinions? Perhaps you're stroking yourself while reading your own opinion and simply skimming through other people's posts without even really reading them just to be able to re-post your own opinion? (The latter as we've already established in the past of this thread).





I find you, in all your self-imposed self-righteousness, quite an intersting creature of narcissism. I suggest you heed your own advice; if don't care what people's opinions are, don't and be quiet. As you've already established that you don't care about other people's opinions, how about you just proceed to the latter.
Lol, you're the king of ripping things out of context.

Did I say I don't care about the opinions on this forum? No, I said I don't care about ZIDANE's opinion on this matter. That and only that is what I meant. You knew this, yet you chose to ignore that and continue to quote it out of context.

Zidane is not part of this discussion, nor did he express his opinion on this matter here. Hence I don't care about some imaginary opinion which doesn't even exist as he didn't participate here.

Everyone you just posted is based on your assumption I don't care about pple's opinion on this forum, in this thread. As proven, the very basis of your assumption is wrong. Repeating it 5 times in your reply doesn't make your assumption true.

Infact, you're the one here saying my opinion doesn't matter, not the other way around.

Nway, I'd like to hear you explain why you ripped that out of context. I'm confident you are perfectly capable to understand that when I said "I don't care what his opinion about this is", that I was aiming at Zidane.

Or are you gonna accuse me of something else now, perhaps ripp some parts out of context some more just to prove me wrong? Fair enough, but then I knew enough I guess.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 10:45   #477
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Did I say I don't care about the opinions on this forum? No, I said I don't care about ZIDANE's opinion on this matter. That and only that is what I meant. You knew this, yet you chose to ignore that and continue to quote it out of context.
If Zidane's opinion on the subject isn't worthy (you'll find his interviews on the subject. he'll be saying that what he did was against the rules yes, but he doesn't feel regret or he doesn't feel he'd done wrong since what he did was warranted), then why on earth should anyone else's be.


Quote:
As proven, the very basis of your assumption is wrong. Repeating it 5 times in your reply doesn't make your assumption true.
I see that you're saying that the argument that breaking the rules is sometimes less bad than other times is wrong. Since it's the basis of my argument. If you go through refereeing, you'll understand that fouls are generally split into two kinds of fouls. There are fouls that are result of gameplay (a bad tackle coming late, a narrow offside). And then there are fouls that are results of unsporting conduct. The latter involve intentional attempts to injure opposition players (Zidane, De Jong) and the intentional attempts to cheat referees (Torres, Busquets, Iniesta).

The fact that you rank people's opinions on what's worse and what's less worse into "worthy" or "relevant" regarding their personal self constitutes of probably both straw man arguments or ad hominem, and just shows the quality of it.

The logic of the Zidane argument was just to emphasize to you why refereeing descisions should not be based on what is subjectively worse an offense since these things depend on cultural factors too (you'll find many say moroccan people who will tell you that it's okay for them to punch someone in the face if that someone insults their mother, for example). What counts is the rules of the game, which find both the behavior of Iniesta (see: Van der Wiedl's yellow card), and De Jong (see: the famous kick) against the rules. One of them was punished for, one of them not. This is one of the reasons people are saying the refereeing quality was poor.

Quote:
Infact, you're the one here saying my opinion doesn't matter, not the other way around.
Speaking of out of context, I guess it's completely possible to come up with imaginary claims too! I am saying, however, that your opinion on which foul is worse than other is simply your subjective opinion and it should not affect the interpretation of rules on pitch. Much like Zidane has his own opinion on the subject, you do have yours, I do have mine, however, referees should stick to the rules. This is why people will find it awkward to claim that the unsporting conduct by Spanish players is less bad because it's nice and polite a way of breaking the rules.

Quote:
Or are you gonna accuse me of something else now, perhaps ripp some parts out of context some more just to prove me wrong? Fair enough, but then I knew enough I guess.
I'm simply stating facts, and I'm trying to bring an objective perspective to rules interpretation. You, on the other hand, are cherry picking opinions based on claims that some person's opinion is worth less than another person's opinion, which, I guess, says something.

Obviously, you have nothing to comment on this and you're still grasping on to straw man arguments, as pointed out earlier on this thread not by just me, but then again, I'm sure the other person who pointed it out isn't worth being allowed an opinion, either.

Vent out more about whose opinion is an acceptable opinion and whose isn't based on your own mentioned self-righteousness and straw men. It's good.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 10:50   #478
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

The reason why I said Zidane's opinion doesn't matter to me, is because he isn't taking part in this discussion. Should he take part, as in actually replying, that would change everything.

I'm sure everyone has an opinion about everything, but if they do not state their opinion or participate in this particular opinion, then why should that be relevant to me?

You DID say my opinion didn't matter, I refer --> No. I'm simply going to say nobody here is you hence they don't care what your opinion is, hence, you can save us from "opinions". Cheers!

Hence you're the one making up things, not me. Or does this all fit into your "I'm simply stating the facts"? I mean, how could you possibly deny this (I'm sure you'll manage though)? It's there, you wrote it. I'm not making this up now am I?

I still fail to see a single arguement of yours that does infact prove that I said I don't care about other pple's opinion in this thread. So I'll repeat it for the last time, so that you, as of now, cannot missinterprete this for the remainder of this thread:

I DO CARE about other pple's opinion in this thread. I do however NOT CARE about the opinion of pple that do not participate in this discussion. There, now please stop claiming things I've never said.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 10:53   #479
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

All of this started with you, be it intentionally or not, quoting me out of context and assuming that when I said "I don't care about his opinion", it was meant towards everyone rather then to the obvious person, aka Zidane.

Now, it's quite clear to me you assumed wrong.

Hence your last few posts are based on a mistake you made, but I guess I shouldn't have my hopes on you actually admitting and stating you assumed wrong?
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 11:02   #480
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
The reason why I said Zidane's opinion doesn't matter to me, is because he isn't taking part in this discussion. Should he take part, as in actually replying, that would change everything.
So people's opinions are only worthy if they post them on this very particular medium? I'm very happy this isn't how the rest of the world works.

Quote:
I'm sure everyone has an opinion about everything, but if they do not state their opinion or participate in this particular opinion, then why should that be relevant to me?
Because it has a clear connection with the subject discussed and brings out views on the subject discussed presented by parties involved in the frame of the discussion (here, football fouls).

Quote:
You DID say my opinion didn't matter, I refer --> No. I'm simply going to say nobody here is you hence they don't care what your opinion is, hence, you can save us from "opinions". Cheers!
Which was a direct response to

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Your point being? I'm not Zidane, I don't care what his opinion on this is.

Or are you gonna argue now about my personal opinion?
No. I'm simply going to say nobody here is you hence they don't care what your opinion is, hence, you can save us from "opinions". Cheers!
Let me interpret that admission to you. You there, state, that you are not Zidane, hence you don't care what his opinion on the subject of fouls being worse or less worse is. There, you imply, that your descision to ignore other people's opinions is based on verification that you are not the other person in question, which is simply what I wrote in a sort of categorical imperative. If you fail to understand what I did there, then you should re-read my reply carefully to view that I quoted a very specific statement by you and replied to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Hence you're the one making up things, not me. Or does this all fit into your "I'm simply stating the facts"? I mean, how could you possibly deny this (I'm sure you'll manage though)? It's there, you wrote it. I'm not making this up now am I?
There we go. You can continue to argue how you re-specified this statement later on, but you do realize what the consequences of such an argument are. I've further re-iterated my point. If your only response to such a case is ad hominem circumstantiae (other people's opinions will not have value because they do not qualify for the criteria you set), then it's completely pointless for me to even write anything down, since all things can always come into an end ad hominem.

Quote:
I DO CARE about other pple's opinion in this thread. I do however NOT CARE about the opinion of pple that do not participate in this discussion. There, now please stop claiming things I've never said.
That's enough. This is why, most people, when discussing subjects, take into account different views on things, not just their own. However, limiting this scope obviously eventually yields a Kant response where there is only one opinion left that is acceptable and hence there is no discussion on the subject at all. Which is a bit of a fallacy.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 11:50   #481
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
That's enough. This is why, most people, when discussing subjects, take into account different views on things, not just their own. However, limiting this scope obviously eventually yields a Kant response where there is only one opinion left that is acceptable and hence there is no discussion on the subject at all. Which is a bit of a fallacy.
To give you an example. I'm sure, should you ever meet my girlfriend, that you'll have an opinion about her. Is that relevant to me? No it isn't, and unless you become a part of my life, it will never be. That's just an example.

I know Zindane's opinion on this matter.

If you claim that I don't take into account different views on things, then that's for your account. I can't help you preventing to make false assumptions or terrible analysis.

Now, we could argue about this endlessly. I get to deal with business people all the time (heing a SAP business consultant), part of the job is to listen and work with other people. Take into account their opinion and wishes. All of this merely to point out I do value other pple's opinion if it is relevant to the subject. Something you appear to be claiming I don't.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:09   #482
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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To give you an example. I'm sure, should you ever meet my girlfriend, that you'll have an opinion about her. Is that relevant to me? No it isn't, and unless you become a part of my life, it will never be. That's just an example.
What a horrible example. When discussing football, I do find the opinions of people established on the field (say, Sepp Blatter, Zidenine Zidane, Howard Webb) relevant. I'm not a part of your life. I'm not a part of Zidane's life. However, Zidane's unarguably a very influential footballing figure of the last decades.

If we were to discuss your girlfriend however, then I'm sure people's opinions on your girlfriend would be relevant to the discussion. We're discussing football rules. I'm most certain footballer's opinions are relevant to the discussion. I could say, that, while at work, discussing say unemployment feedback mechanisms, that Gene Grossman's opinion isn't relevant because he's not sitting in the table with us, but I'd just make myself come out like a complete asshole. Not just an asshole, but also very incompetent.

Quote:
I get to deal with business people all the time (heing a SAP business consultant), part of the job is to listen and work with other people. Take into account their opinion and wishes. All of this merely to point out I do value other pple's opinion if it is relevant to the subject. Something you appear to be claiming I don't.
I'm absolutely staggered that there is a consultant in this world who doesn't think the opinions of people that are established in the field of discussion are relevant.

I can just imagine the discussion.
Client: "Mr. Consultant, what do you think about the opinion of this [expert in the field you're consulting in]?"
Consultant: "It makes no difference. He isn't here discussing with us is he".


Pearls for the pigs.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 27 Jul 2010 at 12:15.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:09   #483
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Haha, hilarious. How am I insulting Dutch people? For stating what EVERYONE saw? That both De Jong as Van Bommel should have been sent off? Lol, even your own journalists admitted that. So how come you're one of the few that sees it differently?

Yeah, the referee was horrible. Mainly because he failed to be consequent at the start. Should have done so, Van Bommel or De Jong would have been sent off and the players would stop making dirty faults.

And I know Spanish players did quite some play-acting, but that is far less worse then doing a karate kick in someone's stomach if you ask me.

I think the victory was deserved, eventhough it was a shit game to behold.

You call me biassed, which I am, but boy ... you're equally biassed here.
READ! Did I say De Jong should not have sent off? Again: READ!

Did I say I am not biassed? NO. Again: READ!

Did I gave my view on teh game: yes! Did I blame the referee for fking up the game AS A WHOLE? Yes.

Did you connect a karate kick to a totally different situation? YES! Does that make sense? NO!

Do you need to read people's posts better before you reply? YES.

If you listen teh same way as you read m8, I am sorry to bring you this news but then you are an awful consultant.

BTW: having the title of consultant and needing certain competences to go with the title does not directly mean you possess those competences. You aren't making a strong appearance here at GD in that perspective.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:11   #484
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Hence your last few posts are based on a mistake you made, but I guess I shouldn't have my hopes on you actually admitting and stating you assumed wrong?
Yes oh mug, my cup. I couldn't actually assume you'd be able to read off a cheek in a tongue comment that's an absolute hyperbole of an Immanuel Kant moral theory in any other way but the very literal one. Just hang on to it, it's a good strawman!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
No. I'm simply going to say nobody here is you hence they don't care what your opinion is, hence, you can save us from "opinions". Cheers!
Cheers!

Don't worry Membrivio, he's a SAP consultant so you're not good enough to have your opinions carry any weight to him! After all, you're not a part of his life, so how would he care what you think of his girlfriend.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:17   #485
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I can just imagine the discussion.
Client: "Mr. Consultant, what do you think about the opinion of this [expert in the field you're consulting in]?"
Consultant: "It makes no difference. He isn't here discussing with us is he".
Yeah, as usual a very correct analysis of you. Says enough.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:18   #486
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Now, it's quite clear to me you assumed wrong.

But I'm not Zidane, I don't care what his opinion on this is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjel5
Yeah, as usual a very correct analysis of you. Says enough.
More ad hominem drivel!
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:19   #487
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
READ! Did I say De Jong should not have sent off? Again: READ!

Did I say I am not biassed? NO. Again: READ!

Did I gave my view on teh game: yes! Did I blame the referee for fking up the game AS A WHOLE? Yes.

Did you connect a karate kick to a totally different situation? YES! Does that make sense? NO!

Do you need to read people's posts better before you reply? YES.

If you listen teh same way as you read m8, I am sorry to bring you this news but then you are an awful consultant.

BTW: having the title of consultant and needing certain competences to go with the title does not directly mean you possess those competences. You aren't making a strong appearance here at GD in that perspective.
I like talking with you, as you take the liberty to answer already. We should tis more often.

Ohh and yeah, I'm an awful consultant. Tell this to my boss and the customers I work for, they'll have a good laugh.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:21   #488
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
More ad hominem drivel!
Yeah whatever ...
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:22   #489
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Don't worry Membrivio, he's a SAP consultant so you're not good enough to have your opinions carry any weight to him! After all, you're not a part of his life, so how would he care what you think of his girlfriend.
Probably the most correct thing you posted so far.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:24   #490
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

What I keep wondering is where do people's constant need to push their obviously inflated professional egos on the discussion come from. Do people actually think that ranting constantly how great a consultant someone is is somehow supposed to (again, in ad hominem fashion) make their opinions on a field of discussion not even related to their self-announced expertise more valuable or something. I mean, I don't care about your opinions on my seven wives cause I'm the king of Swaziland YRMO BEND OVER LESSER HUNAMS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjel5
Probably the most correct thing you posted so far.
Dude it wasn't hard to predict you wouldn't post anything constructive but instead just go down to attack him as a person to belittle his opinion.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:33   #491
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
What I keep wondering is where do people's constant need to push their obviously inflated professional egos on the discussion come from. Do people actually think that ranting constantly how great a consultant someone is is somehow supposed to (again, in ad hominem fashion) make their opinions on a field of discussion not even related to their self-announced expertise more valuable or something. I mean, I don't care about your opinions on my seven wives cause I'm the king of Swaziland YRMO BEND OVER LESSER HUNAMS!
I feel sorry for your poor judgement skills, but I cannot take any blame into that. If you perceive that as what you just described, then fair enough. Thankgod what you perceive is miles away from what it actually meant. I think the "All of this merely to point out ..." was quite obvious to indicate that I used that as an example to show you that in my area of work, opinions do matter.

Did I at any point mention I'm better then him because I do this as a profession? No. Yet you seem to think I do.

I mean, are you reading things that aren't there? How on earth could you conclude that I think I'm worth more then others due to my job? I know why. You think poorly of me so you JUST ASSUMED ...

[SARCASM]Btw, I mentionned my gf. Plz assume that she's prettier and better at everything compared to your girlfriend. I didn't say that, but please do assume it as I'm sure that's what I actually meant [/SARCASM]

Plz do not ignore the sarcasm signs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Dude it wasn't hard to predict you wouldn't post anything constructive but instead just go down to attack him as a person to belittle his opinion.
You mean the thing you're doing constantly, mostly in this thread? Wait .. what?
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:45   #492
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Thankgod what you perceive is miles away from what it actually meant.
It's good you do! Let's take a small moment to better perceive your reading comperhension skills. Hold on, this will be fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjel5
Did I at any point mention I'm better then him because I do this as a profession? No. Yet you seem to think I do.
Let me re-iterate again. What you're doing with him is that you're not reading what he is saying. Then you proceed to insert words in to his mouth. Then, when you realize, you were incorrect, you simply ad hominem him down because you can't be arsed to reply properly - or you simply do not have the content to do it. I'm going to cut, because I can't be arsed to paste it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
And to take your argument away: yes De Jong deserved to be sent off. I don't know about Bommel. Can't remember that one.
Then your reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
That both De Jong as Van Bommel should have been sent off? Lol, even your own journalists admitted that. So how come you're one of the few that sees it differently?
Ahahaha. At this point I had to stop laughing for a little, because, I'm sure I've suggested this again, but you should go attend some elementary school reading comperhension. Let's recap. "Yes, De Jong deserved to be sent off. I don't know about Bommel. Can't remember thatn one". And a reply from you was more or less ignorant, arrogant drivel that ignored the post of the poster and just spewed a bunch of bile on it.

Then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
READ! Did I say De Jong should not have sent off? Again: READ!
And you're not even bothered to put up a reply. I mean, serious face dude. Serious, serious face. I'm not Zidane, so I don't care about his opinion, I'm not you either, so I don't care about yours either, but, like. The amount of sheer idiocy on that discussion between you and the other person is just stunning, and trust me, while his output isn't the fanciest in the world, it's not him who appears like a total idiot.


Quote:
You mean the thing you're doing constantly, mostly in this thread? Wait .. what?
No dude, I was wearing my serious face here. Don't make me quote the Kila strawman again. Although I think my strawman some pages ago was prettier than his.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
Do you need to read people's posts better before you reply? YES.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 12:51   #493
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

So, you quote me to claim I think I'm better because of my profession. You then write a wall of text as a reply and at no point do you explain why you made up the fact that I think I'm better then others due to my work.

Did I at any point mention I'm better then him because I do this as a profession? No. Yet you seem to think I do.

Care to stick to the content of what you quote and actually reply on it, rather then talking around it with pointless arguements?

Because this:

Let me re-iterate again. What you're doing with him is that you're not reading what he is saying. Then you proceed to insert words in to his mouth. Then, when you realize, you were incorrect, you simply ad hominem him down because you can't be arsed to reply properly - or you simply do not have the content to do it. I'm going to cut, because I can't be arsed to paste it all.

is far from an explanation of why you claim I think more of myself due to my profession.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:06   #494
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
So, you quote me to claim I think I'm better because of my profession. You then write a wall of text as a reply and at no point do you explain why you made up the fact that I think I'm better then others due to my work.
Dude. I was simply wondering what's with the need to bring things like professions constantly into a discussion where they're not relevant. Obviously, you didn't answer this. Or, one could interpret that you did, in saying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Did I at any point mention I'm better then him because I do this as a profession? No. Yet you seem to think I do.
That you aren't doing it to push your status. Which does answer partially to why you're not doing it, why you are doing it, however, or the relevance of it, remains a mystery. What more do you really expect me to say on it?

Quote:
Care to stick to the content of what you quote and actually reply on it, rather then talking around it with pointless arguements?
You can read the context of the discussion on the thread. I don't feel a need to copy and paste everything that's been about over the past 10 pages just so that you can feel the context that is already readily available for you.

Quote:
is far from an explanation of why you claim I think more of myself due to my profession.
And the reason why I'd assume you find yourself superior than others is exactly pointed out there: because you choose to simply not respond to him, or you respond to him in a belittling manner, in the given context of the discussion (elaborated above).

Of course he is answering, it's a style of presenting a provocative argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio
READ! Did I say De Jong should not have sent off? Again: READ!
Since, obviously, he stated, without a shadow of doubt (while internet sarcasm along the lines of IM NOT U SO I DUN CAAAERLOLOLO will sometimes go past people's interpretation, which is understandable) that he does think De Jong deserved a red, and then was met by a response along the lines of "LOL ALL MEDIA TROLOLO THINK HE SHULD OF BEEN SEND OF AND YOU DONT THINK SO AHEAEH WHO IZ BIAS HERE" and continued with "WELL IM NOT GNA TALK TO YOU NOW LOLO".

What kind of a conclusion is one supposed to draw of it here? That you're too good to actually respond to him?
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:15   #495
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Kjeldoran View Post
Now, we could argue about this endlessly. I get to deal with business people all the time (heing a SAP business consultant), part of the job is to listen and work with other people. Take into account their opinion and wishes. All of this merely to point out I do value other pple's opinion if it is relevant to the subject. Something you appear to be claiming I don't.
Who are you to decide whether it is relevant to the subject? This mere reply makes you set yourself above the participants in the discussion. Hence: Kjeldoran > * is perceived.

Second: I rather not use fancy idiom when it can be perceived incorrectly. Hence, I used the rhetorical question-answer cycle.

Kjeldoran, you are fighting a battle that you lost before you started it. Simply, because you don't know where you stood when you started the battle (quicksand!).
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:17   #496
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
And the reason why I'd assume you find yourself superior than others is exactly pointed out there: because you choose to simply not respond to him, or you respond to him in a belittling manner, in the given context of the discussion (elaborated above).
IF you'd conclude I feel superior then him by not answering, then why would you base that based on my profession? You could state I feel superior because I wish not to reply to him. But what does my profession have to do with it?

I stated I used it as an example, nothing more. Why? Because it's something I do every single day, my job. Hence using my job as an example sounds obvious, because I'm familiar with that. Why would I want to use an example which I'm less familiar with?

But I'm glad you finally admit you ASSUMED something. And I've already established your assumption is wrong (regardless of what you claim). Because after all, I know what I meant and I didn't pretend to be better, surely not because of what I do for a living.

Ohh and, I didn't reply as I deemed it pointless to reply to a post in which is already replies for me. Nothing more really.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:22   #497
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Membrivio View Post
Who are you to decide whether it is relevant to the subject? This mere reply makes you set yourself above the participants in the discussion. Hence: Kjeldoran > * is perceived.

Second: I rather not use fancy idiom when it can be perceived incorrectly. Hence, I used the rhetorical question-answer cycle.

Kjeldoran, you are fighting a battle that you lost before you started it. Simply, because you don't know where you stood when you started the battle (quicksand!).
Look, if you want to discuss or argue with me, then don't pretend you know what I'd answer. By doing so, you immediatly make whatever I want to reply as pointless. And why expect a reply is your questions are rethorical?

What is relevant to the subject is something everyone decides for themselves. Perhaps the opinion of Zidane is relevant in this conversation to you. For others it might not. I'm also not enforcing you classify it as irrlevant.

I'm not fighting any battles, I'm merely defending myself from the constant personal "attacks", something really relevant in a discussion so it appears.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:25   #498
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
What kind of a conclusion is one supposed to draw of it here? That you're too good to actually respond to him?
I suppose that's the conclusion you drew. Whether I tell you that's what I meant or not, doesn't appear to make the smallest difference to you.
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:28   #499
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

Quote:
But I'm glad you finally admit you ASSUMED something. And I've already established your assumption is wrong (regardless of what you claim).
Huh? Wait. So, my establishment is wrong, because I think a player's, who has been say selected as the world footballer of the year, opinion is equally valid as anyone's when discussing fouls in football is relevant? And deducing from that, that people have very different views on which fouls is more or less "worse" (I used Zidane's opinion to bring a diagonal opposite opinion from a supposed person who has established himself in the field "football"). Then, considering that, referees should make descisions based on what are the rules (eg. play acting is an act you should be punished for, instead of the opposing player getting punished - case Van der Wiedl, as well as violent conduct is in the same way unsporting behaviour worth punishing).

Whatever's beyond this is simply a framework discussion on you claiming that Zidane's opinion isn't relevant originally because you are not Zidenine Zidane, and later on because Zidenine Zidane is not posting on these forums, both which I've tried to explain are bad arguments of relevancy. A good argument of relevancy would be that Zidane isn't an accountant (I'm assuming!), so his opinion on the details of Greece's budget might not carry much weight.

(because this relevancy is based on an argument that can be debated - whether being an accountant is necessary to form educated opinions on current accounts, rather than a "because I feel like this through my occupational experience" - which in terms of relevancy to subject cannot be verified, and we can all just end up saying "but I don't want that opinion because a) I'm not Zidane, b) Zidane's not posting here, or c) Even if he was, I don't want to discuss with him").

I can understand that I wouldn't be a relevant person to have an opinion your girlfriend, or Zidane wouldn't be a relevant person to have an opinion on your girlfriend, but on the subject football, I consider (on above basis) Zidane's opinion, Howard Webb's opinion, Gary Lineker's opinion, and Sebb Blatter's opinion all equally relevant since they're established "experts" on the field. I made a hyperbole of the "I'm not Zidane his opinion doesn't relevant" followed by "he's not posting here his opinion isn't relevant" arguments because we can all come up with strawman arguments to kill relevant claims if we want. Eg. "You're a SAP consultant your opinion isn't relevant". Or just "none of you on this thread is me so none of your opinions are relevant". It gets very complicated and elaborate in all it's simplicity.

Then, again, the relevancy of SAP consultancy or your personal life contributes very little to the discussion "football", and to be fair, there's little gains in claiming that "on your consultant's expertise this and that person's opinion aren't valid", because it doesn't actually revoke the argument that Zidane's opinion would be valid. You could revoke the argument by stating "Zidane doesn't even know what a football is, since he's a 3-year-old Kongolese child, how on earth could his opinion on football rules be relevant".
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Unread 27 Jul 2010, 13:33   #500
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Re: World Cup Prediction Thread

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
Huh? Wait. So, my establishment is wrong, because I think a player's, who has been say selected as the world footballer of the year, ...
No, your assumption about you thinking I feel better then others. You said that's what you assumed. So yeah, you did assume and admitted that (by typing it) and I tell you it's wrong. Hence establishing that you are incorrect.

Whether this is all part of the framework around the original topic, might very well be true. But you made an assumption on the fact that I feel better then others due to my work. You assumed wrong.

Now, you could continue preaching that your assumption on this subject is the truth, feel free to. I can only state that you're wrong.
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