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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 01:59   #1
dda
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Royalty

I had hoped that this subject would have come up at some time without me having to broach it, but it hasn't.

As an American, I have never lived in a country which had a monarch. As such, I don't really understand why royalty still exists in this day and age.

However, this is not an attack on particular royals or any particular monarchy. In fact it really isn't meant as an attack on anyone or anything. It is truely a question and not a judgement.

Those of you who live in a country with a king or queen, what do you think of the institution and why?

As a general rule, Americans are very fond of royals of every type and variety though we have none of our own. I myself have a great deal of admiration for JohnnyBGood, King of the Irish Tossers.

Anyhow, tell me what you think.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 02:03   #2
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Re: Royalty

"in this day and age"??

are you suggesting that monarchy should be abolished because it is old?

You yourself are on thin ice there ...
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 02:06   #3
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
As a general rule, Americans are very fond of royals of every type and variety though we have none of our own. I myself have a great deal of admiration for JohnnyBGood, King of the Irish Tossers.
If you like them so much you can have ours, for a price of course.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 02:14   #4
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
"in this day and age"??

are you suggesting that monarchy should be abolished because it is old?

You yourself are on thin ice there ...
There are those who have suggested that I should be abolished because I was old.

But, no I was not suggesting that they should be abolished at all. I was merely asking what purpose they serve. This is not to suggest that they do not serve a purpose, merely that, being raised in a country without royalty, I have not been educated on this point.

I assume the UK has maintained the royalty for a reason. Some in your country accept that reason and there are probably others who do not. I understand the arguments for not having an hereditary monarch, I do not know the arguments in favor of heriditary monarchy.

Charles and Whats-her-name popped over recently and got me to wondering.

Also isn't there an Ice Cube King in Norway?
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 02:15   #5
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Also isn't there an Ice Cube King in Norway?


King Freezy is his name.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 02:22   #6
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
There are those who have suggested that I should be abolished because I was old.

But, no I was not suggesting that they should be abolished at all. I was merely asking what purpose they serve. This is not to suggest that they do not serve a purpose, merely that, being raised in a country without royalty, I have not been educated on this point.

I assume the UK has maintained the royalty for a reason. Some in your country accept that reason and there are probably others who do not. I understand the arguments for not having an hereditary monarch, I do not know the arguments in favor of heriditary monarchy.

Charles and Whats-her-name popped over recently and got me to wondering.

Also isn't there an Ice Cube King in Norway?
As an outsider, I think the British still have a crown because there's an established system of elites with deep roots in family and historical institutions. I recently read an article that made the point that one of Africa's political problems is the lack of an established and instutionalised elite. It results in political instability, fighting and violence, and turmoil and you know what Africa is like today. If you look at British society from a functional perspective you'll see that the monarchy still plays an integral role in Britain. No they aren't lords of all ordained by God any more, but it is not obsolete; it very much still a relevant part of how things work in the UK.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 02:22   #7
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I assume the UK has maintained the royalty for a reason. Some in your country accept that reason and there are probably others who do not. I understand the arguments for not having an hereditary monarch, I do not know the arguments in favor of heriditary monarchy.
The 2004 US elections cost $3.9 billion dollars. This will be repeated in in 2008 and will no doubt continue to increase.

When Her Majesty dies Charles' succession won't cost anything more than the coronation ceremony in Westminster Cathedral (and hell we've already got the cathedral and the crown jewels)

that's one substantial argument.

Another good second reson is that it can be beneficial to have a head of state (to conduct international diplomacy) who isn't 'politicised' who has no political opinions, ideals or beliefs.

there are lots of reasons to have a monarchy just as there are lots of reasons not to have one.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 02:36   #8
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
"in this day and age"??

are you suggesting that monarchy should be abolished because it is old?

You yourself are on thin ice there ...
They say religion should be abolished because it is old....
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 05:28   #9
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Re: Royalty

I exist in something of an inbetween. We are linked to a monarchy that is no longer ours and is completly powerless in our affairs, nor does she hold any power over out state church because we have none.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 09:29   #10
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
They say religion should be abolished because it is old....
Who is this "they", because that's no an argument I've come across before.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 10:01   #11
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Re: Royalty

From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen!
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 10:38   #12
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I recently read an article that made the point that one of Africa's political problems is the lack of an established and instutionalised elite.
There was anrticle in last months Prospect magazine which compared East Asia and Africa. Comparing some of the individual countries in Africa with (say) South Korea they both started from similar economic conditions (if we go back a while) and yet South Korea obviously is richer than any nation in sub-Saharan Africa by some margin. They put the difference down to not the economic system (both sides used massive state intervention) and not the abscence of elites (both have entrenched elites) but the behaviour of the state (and the elites that controlled it). In South Korea (and elsewhere) the state was used as an enabler - trying to direct the nation towards massive spurts of growth. In Africa, the emphasis has been more on patronage and "vampirism" (i.e. using the state to extract as much as you can for whomever controls it).

I'm not sure if the argument was that compelling, but it was relatively interesting.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 10:47   #13
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Re: Royalty

On the subject of monarchy, I find the whole thing to be an absurd and vaguely embarrassing charade.

The only arguments I have heard in it's favour is something like "it brings in loads of tourist money" or something like that. Because presumably the Japs or Yanks wouldn't visit our fair isles if we didn't have a Queen. Which is why I always suggest a bloody pay-per-view execution to offset these costs.

In reality the only reason it seems to persist because of inertia. No-one can really be bothered to do anything about it.

And the fact that people are less than thrilled than making some politician "President". A curious argument since Tony Blair is basically our president. He attends international summits, he is the one who makes decision whether our nation goes to war (sadly), and he is certainly seen internationally as "our leader". The formal distinction seems irrelevent.

If it were up to me then obviously I would go for some ultimately dissolution of the state, empowering local councils or "Soviets" to take decisions at the grass roots. However, more realistically on this subject I would end the monarchy when our current Queen dies. Beyond that, there are various constitutional changes one could propose, but they are less drastic than some seem to imply. We would not need some gigantic US style Presidency institution to be created as far as I can see.

Anyway, hopefully things will change. I've not looked at any polls but I suspect the monarchy still enjoys the majorities support. However, this is bolstered by the opinions of a lot of older persons. Who, without wishing to be blunt, will die before too long. Combined with rising immigration ("non-whites" forecast to be the majority by 2100 according to one projection I read) who presumably who have a lot less affection/identity with the Crown. Eventually the institution will die, and hopefully I'll still be alive to see it.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 12:21   #14
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The only arguments I have heard in it's favour is something like "it brings in loads of tourist money" or something like that.
I posted two quite different arguments in this very thread. I would be flattered if you found time to cast your eye over them.

Personally I shrink from discussing the Monarchy with non-lawyers. The role that the Monarchy plays is actually quite boring and can be difficult to grasp. Aside from that the argument always seems to polarise none lawyers who are drawn to 'keep it forever' 'get rid of it' decisions very quickly, usually on the basis of pre-formed opinions and political crutches.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 13:00   #15
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Those of you who live in a country with a king or queen, what do you think of the institution and why?
In Norway the king got close to zero power, whatever he CAN decide is just a formality anyway.

Eventhough our royal family got almost no power, they're in my opinion still important to Norway. The royal family we have is warm-hearted and in some kind of way they take care of the people. They're always good at showing up on arrangements around in the country, they always stops for a chat with people they happen to meet and they're always good at taking care of 'us'.

Some people might think they're useless and it's a waste spending money on the monarchy. But what they do (especially the king) for the people is amazing and it's impossible to measure it in money.

Having a monarchy is kinda "oldish" yes, but I think we're better off with them than without them
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 13:47   #16
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I posted two quite different arguments in this very thread. I would be flattered if you found time to cast your eye over them.
I'm including those in my later point about "the alternatives".

Saying the American Presidential elections cost a lot is fair enough, but this is more a reflection on the way their media functions, the campaign contribution process in general and other factors. Even their Senate/other elections are insanely expensive. According to some statistic I read a while ago the cost of winning a seat in the Senate by the early 90's was $4 million dollars (so is probably double that by now). According to figures quoted at OpenSecrets.org some districts candidates spent upto $60 per vote!

Our media, elections and campaign contributions work utterly different from the US, and so it seems strange to presume if we had a President (note, I am not actually advocating that) that it would cost many billions in terms of elections.

As for international diplomacy I don't really agree. Any substantial diplomacy is going to be either conducted by our Government, or by the head of state who is basically told what to say by the Government (who are advising her I suppose). Are there any substantial examples where the Queen has conducted international diplomacy seperate from the government in the last 40 or so years?
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 14:08   #17
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Re: Royalty

If you think that having elections is a cost free exercise then you are wrong. the rest is just quibbling about the size of the inevitable 4 or 5 yearly bill.

my point is that there would be a bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
As for international diplomacy I don't really agree. Any substantial diplomacy is going to be either conducted by our Government, or by the head of state who is basically told what to say by the Government (who are advising her I suppose). Are there any substantial examples where the Queen has conducted international diplomacy seperate from the government in the last 40 or so years?
everytime she grants an honour to a foreigner, everytime she hosts a dinner at buck palace for a visiting dignitry, everytime se goes on a good will tour ....

I'm struggling to understand the point of your question. the phrase 'substantial diplomacy' doesn't make any sense to me either.

oh and I'd like to add the honour system as another essential reason to maintain the monarchy. on the basis that the honour system represents the finest method that any state has developed to a) encourage philanthropy by the rich and greedy, b) attract the brightest minds in the workforce to relatively subordinate jobs for massively deflated salary oh and c) it doesn't cost the state a thing.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 14:12   #18
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Exclamation Re: Royalty

I don't like the Queen. Nothing personal, I just don't really like female monarchs generally. It's a chauvanism thing.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 14:21   #19
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The only arguments I have heard in it's favour is something like "it brings in loads of tourist money" or something like that.
Not just tourist money. The Royals actively make money for the state simply because the money they give to the state by the land they possess is greater than the civil list.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 15:17   #20
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Re: Royalty

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
If you think that having elections is a cost free exercise then you are wrong. the rest is just quibbling about the size of the inevitable 4 or 5 yearly bill.

my point is that there would be a bill.
Aye but at least this way we keep the valuable telephone-pole poster industry afloat.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 16:18   #21
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
If you think that having elections is a cost free exercise then you are wrong. the rest is just quibbling about the size of the inevitable 4 or 5 yearly bill.

my point is that there would be a bill.
Well if we had a "Presidential" election (and for the third time I will say that I don't believe we would need either a President or an Election for them) it would cost "some" money, yes. But this amount would not necessarily be particularly large. I believe the French elections in the 90's were restricted to under £10m in spending by the candidates. I'm not sure how much money it cost to administer them (in terms of costs incurred by the state), but some sort of synergy (groan) could be utilised if they were had at a similar time to General Elections or some such - which costs around £80m to run I believe. Even if it costs as much again for another election (which - once again I will say I don't feel is required) that hardly seems overly onerous.
Quote:
I'm struggling to understand the point of your question. the phrase 'substantial diplomacy' doesn't make any sense to me either.
By substantial diplomacy I mean something which has had a noticable and undoubted impact on our countries well being. You are saying there is a (presumably sizable) benefit to having a non-political head of state - I am asking for evidence of this.
Quote:
oh and I'd like to add the honour system
I see no reason (along with many other arguments) that the honour system, in broadly the same format, couldn't exist without a monarch. And of course they cost something - these things don't administer themselves (sup T&F) - it's just not a large amount of money in the scale of things.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 18:59   #22
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Who is this "they", because that's no an argument I've come across before.
Some governments, think-tanks, Salman Rushdie-likes, etc.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 20:23   #23
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Re: Royalty

Sometimes it is easier to understand what a thing does by understanding what would be lost if it didn't exist.

If the monarchy were to vanish tomorrow, what would have to be done to make sure their functions were taken care of.

Would Englismen, for example, discontinue the honour system?

What would the Norwegians lose should the Norwegian royalty cease to exist?

It is akin to asking an American what would happen if we changed from a President to a Prime Minister?
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 20:24   #24
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
If the monarchy were to vanish tomorrow, what would have to be done to make sure their functions were taken care of.
Newspapers and dinner parties would have to come up with some new discussion topics, but thats about it.

Youre probably best thinking about the "lets remove the monarchy!" issue as being similar to "lets take 'under God' out of the pledge!" in America. Theyre both complete non-issues that get recycled every few years whenever people feel like having an argument, and its baffling how the public can get so worked up about them when there are so many more important ways in which the respective coutnries are falling apart.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 20:31   #25
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Re: Royalty

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Not just tourist money. The Royals actively make money for the state simply because the money they give to the state by the land they possess is greater than the civil list.
No
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 20:31   #26
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Would Englismen, for example, discontinue the honour system?
I can't see a single reason why we would. Maybe the name would change but the Empire stuff is quite amusing in the circumstances, so why not keep it?

As far as I am aware, in other countries they give "honours" too, albeit not necessarily on the scale and scope we do in this country. The US Presidential "Medal of Freedom" seems to be vaguely similar.

The only argument I can see regarding the honours changing would be that some people might not value it if didn't come from the Queen. But quite frankly those people are faggots so I'm not sure why we care about what they think.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 20:31   #27
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Re: Royalty

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Some governments, think-tanks, Salman Rushdie-likes, etc.
"Because it's old"? Maths is quite old too!
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 20:46   #28
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Re: Royalty

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
"Because it's old"? Maths is quite old too!
Apparently, religion is a way of life. They say it's not applicable for today's world because it was for those living in 'the old days'*.

Maths (I think) isn't a way of unless you're a nerd.





*"the days when the holy books were revealed to mankind"
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 21:29   #29
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Apparently, religion is a way of life. They say it's not applicable for today's world because it was for those living in 'the old days'*.
this is the worst distortion of an argument since that old Sodom and Gomorrah chestnut.

The holy books and instructions of many religions were very much of their time and in many cases the relevance has died out. The argument is thus: Religions are old + their holy books were not timeless and were largely a means of explaining what was then unexplainable -> science, archaeology and so on has explained much of the 'unexplainable' since then, and convingly so, therefore many items of religion are, even within the context of faith, obselete -> we should ignore these now-obsolete points and anything to which they are important, and if this means the whole belief structure then so be it.

You have read this as Religions are old -> we should ignore them.

This is a horrible perversion.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 21:31   #30
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Even if it costs as much again for another election (which - once again I will say I don't feel is required) that hardly seems overly onerous.
It doesn't matter if it's onerous or not.

Surely the definition of wasting money is choosing to pay for something which you previously got for free.

I appreciate your personal political beliefs, but in order to operate a legal system we would need something to be sovereign. This would mean that getting rid of the Queen would require her to be replaced and replacing her would be unnecessarily costly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
By substantial diplomacy I mean something which has had a noticable and undoubted impact on our countries well being. You are saying there is a (presumably sizable) benefit to having a non-political head of state - I am asking for evidence of this.
Noticeable and undoubted to whom?
We're going to end up dissecting History if you carry on down this line.
Can you accept that Her Majesty does conduct diplomacy for the state?

because after that whether you or I think that she handled one meeting better than another or that one foreign government was more influenced by her than another is really a very subjective (and very very boring debate).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I see no reason (along with many other arguments) that the honour system, in broadly the same format, couldn't exist without a monarch. And of course they cost something - these things don't administer themselves (sup T&F) - it's just not a large amount of money in the scale of things.
To understand you have to have a good grasp of what the honour system is (i'm including the Aristocracy).

Essentially honour systems are ways of a state manipulating citizens to act in a certain way. Like all manipulations it is based on a mythical premis. It is the strength of this premis which dctates the level to which the citizen will be manipulated (and thus the level of benefit for the country). Think of it as 'a gold star' system, it only has any effect if people want the stars so the best gold stars are ones surrounded in lots of mythology.

The system which exists under the monarchy couldn't exist without a monarchy because it is fundamentally pyramidal: removing the head honour, removes the validity of all honours beneath that. Thus making the honours themself worthless.

With a new head of state you'd need to create a new gold star scheme with it's own mythology and history. I can't see such a new system being plausible in Britain: if it were it would certainly have a lesser manipulation power than the current honour system.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 21:34   #31
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I appreciate your personal political beliefs, but in order to operate a legal system we would need something to be sovereign.
Why not the law lords and parliament?
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 21:35   #32
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
this is the worst distortion of an argument since that old Sodom and Gomorrah chestnut.

The holy books and instructions of many religions were very much of their time and in many cases the relevance has died out. The argument is thus: Religions are old + their holy books were not timeless and were largely a means of explaining what was then unexplainable -> science, archaeology and so on has explained much of the 'unexplainable' since then, and convingly so, therefore many items of religion are, even within the context of faith, obselete -> we should ignore these now-obsolete points and anything to which they are important, and if this means the whole belief structure then so be it.

You have read this as Religions are old -> we should ignore them.

This is a horrible perversion.
This is what other people say, not me. That's why they speak of "reforms" in Islam to prevent young muslims turning into terrorists.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 21:36   #33
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
This is what other people say, not me. That's why they speak of "reforms" in Islam to prevent young muslims turning into terrorists.
if anyone is actually making that argument, slap them.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 21:38   #34
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
if anyone is actually making that argument, slap them.
Apparently I can't come anywhere near Salman Rushdie. They'll have me arrested and hold me under the Terrorism Act.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 21:40   #35
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Apparently I can't come anywhere near Salman Rushdie. They'll have me arrested and hold me under the Terrorism Act.
yes but the thing is nobody, anywhere, listens to anything salman rushdie says. it's like supporting an argument with quotes from david icke's website.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 21:40   #36
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Apparently I can't come anywhere near Salman Rushdie. They'll have me arrested and hold me under the Terrorism Act.
you're sounding like the Daily Mail version of religion.

EDited to include Phang

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
yes
actually the correct answer was 'no'
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 21:43   #37
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you're sounding like the Daily Mail version of religion.
You must think I'm hideous now.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 22:40   #38
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I appreciate your personal political beliefs, but in order to operate a legal system we would need something to be sovereign. This would mean that getting rid of the Queen would require her to be replaced and replacing her would be unnecessarily costly.
Why not just buy a phonebook and randomly pick names? That would do quite nicely I think.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 00:06   #39
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Exclamation Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Why not just buy a phonebook and randomly pick names? That would do quite nicely I think.
Or how about watery tarts distributing swords? I've always liked that one.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 00:48   #40
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Re: Royalty

Our once and future king who sleeps inside a hollow hill. He shall rise again when Britain is in it's darkest hour to save us all.

I have always worried about the potential constitutional crisis ...
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 01:05   #41
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Re: Royalty

i support our monarchy.

i'm not a fan, but i do believe there are more advantages than disadvantages to it.

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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 01:28   #42
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
When Arthur is armed with his sword and the Queen just with a multitude of hat boxes I think that would be a short-term crisis.
If it's Arthur and a couple of dozen Knights who are so united in organisation and purpose that they can't even sit around a rectangular table without killing each other against the Grenadier Guards and the Mounted Regiment of the Household Cavalry, I know who my money's on.
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He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 10:42   #43
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
It doesn't matter if it's onerous or not.

Surely the definition of wasting money is choosing to pay for something which you previously got for free.
Pretty much everything that the government does costs some money. A coronation costs money, royal funerals cost money, etc, etc. The issue is very much about how much. We don't get the services of the royals "for free". You may consider it a bargain, but that is another matter.

Quote:
I appreciate your personal political beliefs, but in order to operate a legal system we would need something to be sovereign. This would mean that getting rid of the Queen would require her to be replaced and replacing her would be unnecessarily costly.
Well, there are a whole raft of constituional changes I would want enacted (even if we are sticking to a strictly reformist agenda here) but here we are discussing the Royals. I am sure the various constitutional experts / great legal minds can offer an alternative solution.

Personally I don't mind the "seperation of powers" business of the United States, but I am sure you think that's ghastly.
Quote:
Noticeable and undoubted to whom?
We're going to end up dissecting History if you carry on down this line.
Can you accept that Her Majesty does conduct diplomacy for the state?
I am sorry if you feel it is boring but you have made a claim and I wondered what you are basing this claim on. I am not looking for a blow-by-blow analysis of every event in history, just one example would be cool.

Of course I accept the Queen carries out some diplomacy - that is part of her current remit. It's a tautology to then say this is evidence that she should carry out diplomacy. Yes, these things are subjective to an extent, but that could be said about most political / historical arguments.
Quote:
To understand you have to have a good grasp of what the honour system is (i'm including the Aristocracy).

Essentially honour systems are ways of a state manipulating citizens to act in a certain way.
If we are talking about a minimalist program (as it were) then I see no major reason why it couldn't continue as is, i.e. you still get CBE's, etc but they are officially given by the PM. As far as I know it's the government who pretty much decides who gets them anyway, so I don't really see the difference. Of course, some people would, but I suspect that is a minority (and conversely, some people refuse honours from the Monarch on a Republican basis - but they too are in a minority).
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 10:45   #44
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Theyre both complete non-issues that get recycled every few years whenever people feel like having an argument, and its baffling how the public can get so worked up about them when there are so many more important ways in which the respective coutnries are falling apart.
It's more of a symbolic argument.

I've never met anyone who thought it was the most important issue facing Britain but it's kind of like if there was a law saying "black people can't eat cress" or "Irish people can't wear orange fedoras". Obviously those laws would be of minimal importance (in and of themselves), but they'd still be explicit proof that Britain was a racist/prejudiced state and therefore it'd probably be preferable if they were removed.

Some people don't like the fact the whole class/privilidge system which exists in the UK and to many the Monarch is the most blatant (albiet trivial) example of this. For the people who support the Monarchy it's often the most obvious example of Britain's heritage/traditions/culture/etc.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 12:35   #45
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Re: Royalty

In england at least the monarch has the power to do just about anything, they just wouldn't last long if they tried to do it without good reason - ultimately if parliament gets too far out of line (such as being a rubber stamp process for a group of people making decisions on a couch maybe?) she can summarily dissolve it. There have also been several times when the queen has sent laws back to be looked at again instead of signing off on them. So the power still is there, it's just not overtly used much.

In the end a hereditary sovereign spends their lives being prepared for the position - an elected one spends their lives learning how to con people into voting for them.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 18:51   #46
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Pretty much everything that the government does costs some money. A coronation costs money, royal funerals cost money, etc, etc. The issue is very much about how much. We don't get the services of the royals "for free". You may consider it a bargain, but that is another matter.
you're still not getting this.

with a monarchy you have one coronation after the ruler dies. our last one was in 1953. That's 52 years (and counting) without needing to pay for a coronation.
If we had replaced the queen with an elected president in 1953 then we would have had 13 presidential elections and 13 separate presidential induction ceremonies.

that's why I am suggesting that having a president would be paying for something that previously didn't cost us a penny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well, there are a whole raft of constituional changes I would want enacted (even if we are sticking to a strictly reformist agenda here) but here we are discussing the Royals. I am sure the various constitutional experts / great legal minds can offer an alternative solution.
as nod succinctly pointed out "there are so many more important ways in which the respective coutnries are falling apart." there are more important questions to deal with than just vandalising the current system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Personally I don't mind the "seperation of powers" business of the United States, but I am sure you think that's ghastly.
we have a separation of powers doctrine.

I'm reassured that I am actually having a serious discussion with someone well informed about our constitution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Of course I accept the Queen carries out some diplomacy - that is part of her current remit. It's a tautology to then say this is evidence that she should carry out diplomacy. Yes, these things are subjective to an extent, but that could be said about most political / historical arguments.
my 'claim' was (and I quote) "it can be beneficial to have a head of state (to conduct international diplomacy) who isn't 'politicised' who has no political opinions, ideals or beliefs."

now you either agree with my point or you take the opposite stand, but i'm not going to argue something that I didn't say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
If we are talking about a minimalist program (as it were) then I see no major reason why it couldn't continue as is, i.e. you still get CBE's, etc but they are officially given by the PM. As far as I know it's the government who pretty much decides who gets them anyway, so I don't really see the difference. Of course, some people would, but I suspect that is a minority (and conversely, some people refuse honours from the Monarch on a Republican basis - but they too are in a minority).
If you can't understand how a knighthood or a peerage would lose validity without the existance of a monarchy then you and I should stop discussing the honour system. your repeated point is the equivalent of saying "I see no major reason why you can't just put water into your car instead of petrol".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Some people don't like the fact the whole class/privilidge system which exists in the UK and to many the Monarch is the most blatant (albiet trivial) example of this
this isn't the same as racism. it's not discrimination. it's people being envious and having chips on their shoulder.

getting rid of the monarch would be constitutional vandalism on a massive scale and the only justification you can give is "some people feel a bit socially inferior" as if getting rid of the monarchy would elevate dustmen to the social status of David Beckham!
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 18:55   #47
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richpur
There have also been several times when the queen has sent laws back to be looked at again instead of signing off on them.
no there haven't.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 19:01   #48
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Re: Royalty

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
you're still not getting this.

with a monarchy you have one coronation after the ruler dies. our last one was in 1953. That's 52 years (and counting) without needing to pay for a coronation.
If we had replaced the queen with an elected president in 1953 then we would have had 13 presidential elections and 13 separate presidential induction ceremonies.

that's why I am suggesting that having a president would be paying for something that previously didn't cost us a penny
Why would we need a president when the queen doesn't actually do anything?
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 22:56   #49
Richpur
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Re: Royalty

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
no there haven't.
While technically she has never formally withheld consent from a government backed bill (no monarch has done that since a militia bill in the early 18th century) she has on a small number of occassions let a prime minister (as far as I am aware always Thatcher) know that a paper would not be allowed to pass.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 23:19   #50
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Re: Royalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richpur
While technically she has never formally withheld consent (no monarch has done that since a militia bill in the early 18th century) she has on a small number of occassions let a prime minister (as far as I am aware always Thatcher) know that a paper would not be allowed to pass. My apologies I realise that is a totally different thing.
she hasn't ever withdrawn consent because while constitutionally possible it is conventionally impossible.

anything else is just plain rumour mongering.

Her Majesty has never even threatened to refuse assent.
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