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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 13:41   #51
eJohn
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

My students association told me to miss my classes, so i went to them.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 13:44   #52
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

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Shut it fatty!
I smiled.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 13:56   #53
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Nothing canceled in the end for us. The 'picket' we had to cross was in reality three people handing out flyers, who promptly gave up their attempts when it started to drizzle.

Way to go, guys.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 14:14   #54
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
Nothing canceled in the end for us. The 'picket' we had to cross was in reality three people handing out flyers, who promptly gave up their attempts when it started to drizzle.

Way to go, guys.
Ours kept it up in the drizzle. All softies north of the border.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 14:23   #55
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

No one turned up for our picket line heh.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 14:36   #56
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
As for you personally Yahwe, the only problems I've ever had with you stem from you maintaining cliques and stopping people from ever joining them. Now, I'm sure that this is what your internet persona dictates (and I'm sure it's not your fault) but it's still rather discouraging to those attempting to keep an open mind.
My issue with you is that you seldom make sense. (see above.)
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 14:45   #57
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
"Absolutely nothing!" came a shout from the audience.
now there is someone who does not know the joy of a Zero Point Energy Manipulator.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 14:51   #58
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
P.S. It is disgraceful that academics earn less than tube drivers. isn't it?
But academics don't have to stay up all night working and hang around people who smell of sweat/mcdonalds/beer and vomit.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 14:56   #59
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

I see you've not been to cambridge
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 14:56   #60
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
But academics don't have to stay up all night working and hang around people who smell of sweat/mcdonalds/beer and vomit.
when was the last time you met a student?
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 14:57   #61
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

My lectures were cancelled to day. So were the lectures of the other people in my house. Except one.

He had to go into university and interview random students for some piece of crap or another, in the rain, when most people wouldn't be there.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 14:58   #62
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

I see everyone is on top sarcasm-detection form today.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 15:05   #63
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Apparantly the pickets at my Uni were in the form of a few people handing out flyers. I couldn't be bothered going in, it's been more worthwhile staying here and writing a report for an assignment.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 15:23   #64
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Not really, when one considers the hours / type of work involved. Unless that was your point.
Academics tend to work long hours, especially postdocs who are trying to make a name for themselves. The work is also far more difficult than that at most jobs, commie fetishism for manual labour aside.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 15:55   #65
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Academics tend to work long hours, especially postdocs who are trying to make a name for themselves.
I've not got any stats to hands, but I'd imagine academics get more holidays than most jobs, they rarely have to work nights or weekends and they do work they would (I imagine) find interesting in a generally pleasant environment. Obviously they may choose to do marking / extra work whenever, but that seems to be a different matter. My working week is 36 hours. I sometimes choose to work weekends and evenings to do work that interests me (or "to make a name for myself") but that hardly means my core hours are any longer than 36 hours. My manager does a fifty/sixty hour week most weeks but that doesn't mean I feel particularly sorry for him.
Quote:
The work is also far more difficult than that at most jobs, commie fetishism for manual labour aside.
I'm not sure what manual labour has to do with anything but OK.

Anyway, there hardly seems to be a shortage of aspiring academics so one presumes there is an element of supply and demand in this.

This is not to say I want academics to be paid any less - as I've implied earlier I support this action. However, I don't find it particularly meaningful to make simplistic comparisons to entirely different fields (especially when such comparisons are probably factually flawed anyway).
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 16:08   #66
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I've not got any stats to hands, but I'd imagine academics get more holidays than most jobs, they rarely have to work nights or weekends and they do work they would (I imagine) find interesting in a generally pleasant environment. Obviously they may choose to do marking / extra work whenever, but that seems to be a different matter.
you could have just said that you didn't understand what it is that an academic does.

The work of an academic falls into broadly 3 categories:
1) Teaching: lectures and supervisions
2) Administration: faculty and university meetings
3) Research: for writing academic articles and publishing books.

All three functions must be observed. This leads to a disjointed lifestyle without clearly set '9 to 5' 5 day a week working patterns.

I hope this brief lesson will prevent you posting more rubbish.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 16:24   #67
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you could have just said that you didn't understand what it is that an academic does.
I could have posted that, but that wouldn't have been accurate. Thanks though.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 16:31   #68
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I've not got any stats to hands, but I'd imagine academics get more holidays than most jobs
Not really. Theres no teaching duties in the summer for instance, but if they dont spend the time doing intensive research and writing papers, their career is going to suffer.

Quote:
they rarely have to work nights or weekends
Nor do most other jobs; noone is saying they work as hard as investment bankers for instance. But youre still probably looking at a 40 hour week minimum.

Quote:
Obviously they may choose to do marking / extra work whenever, but that seems to be a different matter.
We're talking about university level academics here, not high school teachers...



Anyway, it all depends on whether you want talented researchers working at UK unis (and I dont think the answer here is an obvious 'yes'). Big American universities pay far more than the UK state system, hence most of the worlds best academics end up working there. If this isnt a problem, then continuing to pay academics far far less than they could earn in industry isnt a terrible idea.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 16:46   #69
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
now there is someone who does not know the joy of a Zero Point Energy Manipulator.
I don't think anyone could ever associate something so actually fun with rate equations and that chemistry lecturer. The course has to take into account that some biologists do it, so the guy has to spend 10 minutes getting [A] = [A]0e^-kt out of d[A]/[A] = -kdt every time it comes up.

I spent the entire thing doing some Fourier analysis.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 17:23   #70
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
A relatively high degree of autonomy over how you teach and assess students.
I'm not sure what this means, but it would almost certainly depend on the subject/university. I assume a philosophy professor would have more control over how to structure his lecture courses than someone teaching calculus 101.

Quote:
The time to study pretty much whatever takes your fancy.
Not really, especially at low levels. If youre a tenured professor then you can study what you like, but most academics will have to study things which are currently fashionable or else theyll find getting publication difficult (most reseach constitues Kuhnian 'normal science'). The current academic system also emphasises work on very specialised problems (often taking the form of webspinning pseudoproblems) which are 'easy to solve' rather than work on the big open-ended questions, which is why most research papers tend to have a limited degree of application/importance at best.

Quote:
Numerous avenues for increased revenue by doing research, publishing articles and so forth.
Unlikely. If youre (eg) a law/medical professor there will probably be opportunities for consulting on the side, but this wouldnt really apply to (eg) sociologists or physicists.

"Doing research and publishing articles" arent extra work, they are a core, expected part of the job.

Quote:
Flexible hours in terms of the number of classes you teach.
Depends on the university

Quote:
I take exception to the phrase "the best academics", I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.
The current leading researchers, those who have a history of doing important research, and those who are deemed to have the potential to do important research in the future.
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Unread 7 Mar 2006, 17:36   #71
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

just to clarify: academics do not get paid for their articles which are published in research journels.
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 00:50   #72
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
2. Again , if you are sayng that there are different levels of authority in the academic profesion I won't argue, but it is a job where you are relying on your knowledge and expertise and your practice, whilst having to meet certain standards is pretty much self-defined. If we compare this to say a tube driver or even a doctor.
What? You don't have to, in any way interface with a university, publishing boards, funding bodies etc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
4. Yes but within that research there are lots of different grants and benefits available I think you would agree, if one is prepared to go for them.
And of course, these just give you money to do what you want selflessly with no motivations of their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
That seems to be the problem with academics in general, basically that since they have the time and the resources to study they are generally considered to be very clever, but lots of people are just as capabale of doing that work.
Capability is not the same as motivation, however, which is an incredibly important factor in any academic study. Can I ask, have you ever took part in a research project, in the scale of a undergrad thesis or higher over an extended piece of time?
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 01:52   #73
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
6. Well who's to say what's important, I think there are a lot of wonderful academcis who make great breakthroughs and earn a lot of money, but there are lot of academics not earning lots of money who also do lots of good work and there are lots of academics, rich and poor who waste everyone's time with bullshit. I haven't seen a particular correlation between a high salary and quality output in the areas I have studies. There is the circular argument that those academics who get paid the most will inevitably do the most important work because they can cherry pick what to write about, confident that they will get resources, and can thus do ambitious projects.


I disagree with most of what you said in your post but i REALLY disagree with this point.

Not all footballers are created equal and not all Academics are created equal.

etc etc etc
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 14:51   #74
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

I can only provide anecdotal evidence here but here goes,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I've not got any stats to hands, but I'd imagine academics get more holidays than most jobs,
26 days per year for me.
Quote:
they rarely have to work nights or weekends
I do nights and weekends every week.
Quote:
and they do work they would (I imagine) find interesting in a generally pleasant environment.
not always. a good percentage of my time involves me going "oh fcking hell, why isn't this working"
Quote:
Obviously they may choose to do marking / extra work whenever, but that seems to be a different matter.
well alot of it isn't choice. Most universities require staff to spend a certain amount of time teaching, though admittedly it is relatively flexible and you can shuffle it between terms. Also things like project proposals mean alot of extra work convincing a bunch of bureaucrats to surrender money, papers seminars and conferences have deadlines to meet and so on.
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 17:17   #75
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Exclamation Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
not always. a good percentage of my time involves me going "oh fcking hell, why isn't this working"
Who doesn't have a job like that?
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 17:48   #76
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Anyone thinking being a professor is an easy job is obviously retarded. Being a student is the easy part.

I know some of my professors who have to work in pretty sad conditions, in old offices that aren't renovated with water driping on their floor when the snow melts. The yhave to buy their own computer to bring to the office, they have to have one at home to work, that's quite the investment especially if you want to use technology in your teaching.

They are pressured to go into group discoussions and seminars all around their area. In england that isn't too bad, but when you have to go Ottawa - Montréal - Toronto - Sudbury etc, that comes to be very expensive and takes quite a toll on you.

Writing papers pay you negative ammounts of money : you have to research it, which means you most likely have photocopied some important things. You pay with your time researching in archives. You have to read countless books and, in some cases, buy the important ones. This while teaching and preparing and correcting.

Their pay isn't that great. They might love what they do but they are allowed to hate their university. Especially those teaching arts or humanities(sp?) like history, political sciences and languages. Since everything is into engineering and pure sciences, all of the money is pumped into state of the art , multi million dollar facilities while the history prof is in an old shack with creeking floors because it looks vintage.

Profs aren't paid nearly enough, nor are they respected while the univeristy baccelor's degree money machine runs like mad, profs much teach five classes, correct so many copies, make final exams, do research, attend seminars, make presentations, drive around the country and publish books that cost more to make than the revenue they get.

Aren't I looking forward to that.
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 18:26   #77
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
26 days per year for me.
In the private sector in Britain, 20 days isn't unusual.
Quote:
I do nights and weekends every week.
Are you contracted to do nights and weekends?

Quote:
not always. a good percentage of my time involves me going "oh fcking hell, why isn't this working"
As Tact says, which job isn't like that?
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 18:35   #78
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Are you contracted to do nights and weekends?
The point is far more complex than a simple job contract: I just knew this was the mistake you were thinking from the very start...

For you to think of the issues in terms of an employment contract is beguiling and utterly misleading.
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 19:12   #79
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Are you contracted to do nights and weekends?
There's a difference between "contracted" and "obligated" (for whatever reason).
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 19:46   #80
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
There's a difference between "contracted" and "obligated" (for whatever reason).
Obviously. I was merely asking a question.
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 19:49   #81
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Obviously. I was merely asking a question.
Well the potential answers are as follows:

Yes
or
No


What difference does the contract make?
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 20:01   #82
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
What difference does the contract make?
It makes a great deal of difference. Someone who is contracted to work weekends cannot rearrange this work (usually) to another time. I work nights at times yet this is because I prefer to spend time when at work posting on the PA forums rather than getting on with work during the day time (as I noticed, does Radical Edward). Now, it might be that this is only work that can be done during the night / weekend (i.e. after a tutorial or something like that). Or it might be because he can't concentrate during the day and prefers to work at night. Or it could be a contract issue. I'd expect that sort of elaboration after a yes/no answer to the question.
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 20:11   #83
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
It makes a great deal of difference. Someone who is contracted to work weekends cannot rearrange this work (usually) to another time. I work nights at times yet this is because I prefer to spend time when at work posting on the PA forums rather than getting on with work during the day time (as I noticed, does Radical Edward). Now, it might be that this is only work that can be done during the night / weekend (i.e. after a tutorial or something like that). Or it might be because he can't concentrate during the day and prefers to work at night. Or it could be a contract issue. I'd expect that sort of elaboration after a yes/no answer to the question.
Your obsession with contracts is flawed.

Academics are obligated (as I explained before ... *sigh*) to 3 main areas of work.
They have to be done. They have to be done regardless of how many hours there are in a day.

This leads to a very difficult work life. One which we are arguing deserves more pay.

Trying to understand this inside the context of your limited work experience; an experience which is constrained to the world of salaries, paid holidays and set working hours, will mean that you will always fail...

AND NOW TO THE BIG PICTURE:

1) Why the **** are you making this an argument about the nature of an academics job? No one has suggested that being an academic is the hardest job in the world or that they should be deified for naTtional worship, the argumnent is about them deserving more money.

2) Why are you; with you claims to socialism/communism, automatically (and from a point of demonstrated ignorance) taking the side of the employer against the Worker?
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 20:13   #84
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
2) Why are you; with you claims to socialism/communism, automatically (and from a point of demonstrated ignorance) taking the side of the employer against the Worker?
Try and pay attention dearest, I've already said I support the strike and I'd like lecturers to be paid more. All I was saying is your "it's disgusting they get paid less than tube drivers" was flawed.
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Unread 8 Mar 2006, 20:16   #85
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Try and pay attention dearest, I've already said I support the strike and I'd like lecturers to be paid more. All I was saying is your "it's disgusting they get paid less than tube drivers" was flawed.
perhaps you should have started with what a tube driver's job entails...

It's always a good idea to start with the bit you might actually be able to understand.
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Unread 9 Mar 2006, 09:18   #86
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Re: So, whose lectures are cancelled tomorrow then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I don't think anyone could ever associate something so actually fun with rate equations and that chemistry lecturer. The course has to take into account that some biologists do it, so the guy has to spend 10 minutes getting [A] = [A]0e^-kt out of d[A]/[A] = -kdt every time it comes up.

I spent the entire thing doing some Fourier analysis.
I'd much rather you abandoned such pointless persuits and hurried up and formulated M-Theory.
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