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View Poll Results: What type of smoking ban should have been introduced
Total ban 63 59.43%
Partial ban 19 17.92%
No change 24 22.64%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 13:44   #151
Radical Edward
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I don't smoke either. Argument doesn't have to rest on pure self interest, you know.
true, but whether I agree or disagree with the ban, I am pleased that it has been banned. I don't care about other peoples' rights.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 13:51   #152
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Smoking is like a long winded suicide, you knows its bad for you but you still do it.

Same as eating an english breakfast for life i guess.

But least when you eat an english breakfast you not forcing someone else to get heart disease and high collestral.

Passive breakfast.
different than passive smoking.
Less of it the better.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 13:55   #153
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it's always far easier to use the force of government to achieve any end.

It'd be far easier to stop all crime by using the force of government to put everyone in prison.

Over use of the force of government because it is 'easier' is how freedom and liberty die.
I'm not convinced that this is overuse.

I really don't see how the argument that I want to be able to go to a pub and not breathe in smoke is any different from the argument that smokers want to be able to go to the same pub and enjoy a cigarette while they're there. If I have my way, I'm denying them the freedom of smoking while at the pub, and if they have their way, they're denying me the freedom of going to the pub without breathing in smoke. That is, there is no difference except for the following: If I decide to go to the pub anyway, I have to put my health at risk, whereas if they go to a non-smoking pub anyway, they don't have to put their health at risk. Both I and the smoker would dislike being in each other's preferred environment, but in my case there is an additional factor of damage to my health that breaks the symmetry in two otherwise equivalent situations. This is why I think we should favour the non-smokers.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 13:55   #154
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
true, but whether I agree or disagree with the ban, I am pleased that it has been banned. I don't care about other peoples' rights.
First they came for the smokers
and I did not speak out
because I was not a smoker.
Then they came for the homosexuals
and I did not speak out
because I was not a homosexual.
Then they came for the drivers
and I did not speak out
because I was not a driver.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 13:57   #155
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Yes, let's put all smokers in concentration camps until they quit.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:01   #156
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

p.s I know I can go to a non smoking pub rather than a smoking pub, but why should I be restricted from going to all the public places just because you want to poison your lungs as well as mine for £5 per 20?
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:02   #157
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
I really don't see how the argument that I want to be able to go to a pub and not breathe in smoke is any different from the argument that smokers want to be able to go to the same pub and enjoy a cigarette while they're there.
The difference is that by using the law you are obliterating the choice of bar owners. Now at least, a bar owner can choose to have a smoke free establishment. There could then be smokers pubs and non-smoking pubs. After a ban there can only be non-smoking pubs. I don't think many smokers are for banning non-smoking pubs.

As Tact has said, the market can respond if there is demand. If the government are not satisfied with the market response there are better ways to intervene than by blanket bans.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:05   #158
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Yes, let's put all smokers in concentration camps until they quit.
Ban smoking the slow way.

Make it over 18's now and then make it over 19's next year over 20's year after etc.. etc.. till all smokers have been and gone anyone below the legal age shouldnt be smoking in the first place they didnt start at a young age and if they did then naughty them

Start banning young and work up if you cant start smoking then no loss no addiction to a drug that kills like every other drug.

Ppl who smoke at the rght age upwards can still smoke ust the restriction follows them :P

p.s taking in to account we have to have them crappy new ID cards to prove age or somethin.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:07   #159
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSH
First they came for the smokers
and I did not speak out
because I was not a smoker.
Then they came for the homosexuals
and I did not speak out
because I was not a homosexual.
Then they came for the drivers
and I did not speak out
because I was not a driver.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
I'm "they"
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:10   #160
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The difference is that by using the law you are obliterating the choice of bar owners. Now at least, a bar owner can choose to have a smoke free establishment. There could then be smokers pubs and non-smoking pubs. After a ban there can only be non-smoking pubs. I don't think many smokers are for banning non-smoking pubs.

As Tact has said, the market can respond if there is demand. If the government are not satisfied with the market response there are better ways to intervene than by blanket bans.

I don't know if this is really equivalent or not, and to be honest I haven't thought it through particularly carefully, so I would appreciate criticism, but is that choice any different from me being allowed to open a restaurant where I allow stray cats in the kitchen (discounting when I am cooking and turning said cats into kebabs)? I am pretty sure the health and safety laws don't allow me to have stray cats in the kitchen of a restaurant, even if I really wanted them.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:17   #161
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
I don't know if this is really equivalent or not, and to be honest I haven't thought it through particularly carefully, so I would appreciate criticism, but is that choice any different from me being allowed to open a restaurant where I allow stray cats in the kitchen (discounting when I am cooking and turning said cats into kebabs)? I am pretty sure the health and safety laws don't allow me to have stray cats in the kitchen of a restaurant, even if I really wanted them.
The difference is that the customers wouldnt know you were allowing stray cats into the kitchen, hence you would be putting them at a risk they didnt consent to. Consider a similar situation where you openly declared that you have a catty kitchen (perhaps with a poster on the window), but offered really cheap prices to balance out the poor standards of hygene. In this case, there is no reason why people shouldnt be allowed to eat at your restaurant if they chose to.

Theres a big difference between simply offerring a poor standard of service/product, and hiding important details from your customers/buyers. This is why we have laws covering (eg) fraud and negligence. Another analagous case would be a fast-food restaurant which made their hamburgers out of shit quality meat, and a expensive restaurant which used the same meat yetadvertised it as being something other than what it was. Only the latter is a legitimate target for lawsuits related to false advertising.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:20   #162
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
I'm not convinced that this is overuse.

I really don't see how the argument that I want to be able to go to a pub and not breathe in smoke is any different from the argument that smokers want to be able to go to the same pub and enjoy a cigarette while they're there. If I have my way, I'm denying them the freedom of smoking while at the pub, and if they have their way, they're denying me the freedom of going to the pub without breathing in smoke. That is, there is no difference except for the following: If I decide to go to the pub anyway, I have to put my health at risk, whereas if they go to a non-smoking pub anyway, they don't have to put their health at risk. Both I and the smoker would dislike being in each other's preferred environment, but in my case there is an additional factor of damage to my health that breaks the symmetry in two otherwise equivalent situations. This is why I think we should favour the non-smokers.
it's better to attempt compromise and co-existence rather than have one side obliterate the other's rights because they happen to have a majority.

As dante points out, this law destroys the ability of the market to make it's own decision.

you are aware of the phrase 'using a sledge hammer to crack a nut'?
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:20   #163
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The difference is that the customers wouldnt know you were allowing stray cats into the kitchen, hence you would be putting them at a risk they didnt consent to.
sorry, I meant to clarify that. would I be allowed to even in the case where I declared to the customers that stray cats were wandering round the kitchen.
Quote:
Consider a similar situation where you openly declared that you have a catty kitchen (perhaps with a poster on the window), but offered really cheap prices to balance out the poor standards of hygene. In this case, there is no reason why people shouldnt be allowed to eat at your restaurant if they chose to.
nice to see consistency. would you agree though, that under current hygeine laws there is at least some correlation between smoking and cats in the kitchen?
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:21   #164
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
One person here is an unemployed 31yr old typing on a keyboard in his spare bedroom inbetween researching his next job.

One person here is a "Top lawyer" who clearly has more time on this board to tell us how wonderful he is and how unintelligent the masses are than he appears to have dealing with his clients.

Delusions of grandeur? Not in this lifetime.
your magical powers now extend to omnipresence i see.

good one kura.

(i'm not laughing 'with' you )
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:22   #165
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it's better to attempt compromise and co-existence rather than have one side obliterate the other's rights because they happen to have a majority.

As dante points out, this law destroys the ability of the market to make it's own decision.

you are aware of the phrase 'using a sledge hammer to crack a nut'?
yahwe, I meant to ask, what is the definition of a private members club?
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:22   #166
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
p.s I know I can go to a non smoking pub rather than a smoking pub, but why should I be restricted from going to all the public places just because you want to poison your lungs as well as mine for £5 per 20?
Because as has been repeatedly pointed out, they arent public places; they are privately owned. Theres no difference between telling a pub owner what he can and cant do with his business, and telling a homeowner what they can and cant do in their living room. A smoking ban in pubs is completely equivalent to a smoking ban in private houses ("why should I be restricted from going to my friends house because he wants to poison his lungs??").
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:24   #167
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
sorry, I meant to clarify that. would I be allowed to even in the case where I declared to the customers that stray cats were wandering round the kitchen.
it's irrelevant whether you would be allowed to or not under present legislation. Unless your argument is 'it's ok to ban smoking in public because other things are banned as well' which would seem an all embracing 'argument'
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:24   #168
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
sorry, I meant to clarify that. would I be allowed to even in the case where I declared to the customers that stray cats were wandering round the kitchen.

nice to see consistency. would you agree though, that under current hygeine laws there is at least some correlation between smoking and cats in the kitchen?
I dont know, I'm not really interested in what the law is at present. I expect that I'd disagree with it though.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:25   #169
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

I have read this thread and see the point going back and forth so i will put my point accross.

If i own a pub how dare the government dictate to me that i cannot allow my patrons to smoke. Shoudnt it be down to the individual who own the pub how it is run. Smoking is nasty. I personally despise coming home stinking of smoke. But i would never dream of telling someone they coudnt smoke someplace just because i didnt like it.

The government enforcing rules on people that arnt nessesery is wrong in my personal opinion. If you dont want to go to a smoky pub find one that isnt. This new law doesnt protect the public from any imediate threat, if you dont want second hand smoke dont go to a pub that allows smoking.

This government should stop taking away personal liberies and rights. If people wanted places to stop allowing people to smoke. They should have boycoted them. If it was having such a HUGE inpact on buisness things would start to change. But the government seems to be happy controling peoples lifes and not given them freedom of choice

Disclaimer: I cant spell to save my life. Dont judge me on it please.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:26   #170
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
I'm not convinced that this is overuse.

I really don't see how the argument that I want to be able to go to a pub and not breathe in smoke is any different from the argument that smokers want to be able to go to the same pub and enjoy a cigarette while they're there. If I have my way, I'm denying them the freedom of smoking while at the pub, and if they have their way, they're denying me the freedom of going to the pub without breathing in smoke. That is, there is no difference except for the following: If I decide to go to the pub anyway, I have to put my health at risk, whereas if they go to a non-smoking pub anyway, they don't have to put their health at risk. Both I and the smoker would dislike being in each other's preferred environment, but in my case there is an additional factor of damage to my health that breaks the symmetry in two otherwise equivalent situations. This is why I think we should favour the non-smokers.
The proper solution would be to be less self-centered and let the pub owner decide on the policy, since it his pub and not yours. There is no conflict between 'smokers and non-smokers' here, just one between the owners of private businesses and the government. Your argument would be valid if we were discussing banning smoking on public property, such as the street or libraries, but that isnt the current issue.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:27   #171
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
yahwe, I meant to ask, what is the definition of a private members club?
you don't need the legal definition. it won't add anything. there is such a thing as excessive detail clouding an issue and if i gave it you then you lot would miss the fact that parliament was free to divine it in any context it chose for the purposes of this act.

so for the purposes of actually understanding the issue use the ordinary english meaning
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:30   #172
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Because as has been repeatedly pointed out, they arent public places; they are privately owned. Theres no difference between telling a pub owner what he can and cant do with his business, and telling a homeowner what they can and cant do in their living room. A smoking ban in pubs is completely equivalent to a smoking ban in private houses ("why should I be restricted from going to my friends house because he wants to poison his lungs??").
well I don't know, it is a licensed premise after all and the government can put whatever controls they like on having the license. If you are going to claim there is no difference, then shouldn't you have to hold the position that it is perfectly ok to brew and distill your own alcohol and sell it from your front door (or buy it in and sell it from your front door)
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:32   #173
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you don't need the legal definition. it won't add anything. there is such a thing as excessive detail clouding an issue and if i gave it you then you lot would miss the fact that parliament was free to divine it in any context it chose for the purposes of this act.

so for the purposes of actually understanding the issue use the ordinary english meaning
ok fair enough, I was just wondering as a point of personal interest though.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:33   #174
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
well I don't know, it is a licensed premise after all and the government can put whatever controls they like on having the license. If you are going to claim there is no difference, then shouldn't you have to hold the position that it is perfectly ok to brew and distill your own alcohol and sell it from your front door (or buy it in and sell it from your front door)
i'd be very surprised if gordon didn't hold that view.

but no there's no obvious necessity to hold both views: licensing of the sale of alcohol can be accepted as administrative co-ordination and control as well as being a method of collecting government revenue.

If on the other hand (your view) you accept that the government can do whatever it likes then you wouldn't disagree with the gov banning black people from pubs.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:36   #175
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it's irrelevant whether you would be allowed to or not under present legislation. Unless your argument is 'it's ok to ban smoking in public because other things are banned as well' which would seem an all embracing 'argument'
no, that isn't and was never going to be my argument, I am just investigating my and others' thoughts and wondering why governments should be able to dictate what people sell on their property (within I suppose certain boundaries, like not being allowed to sell other people and so on).
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:38   #176
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Because as has been repeatedly pointed out, they arent public places
remind us what "pub" is short for?
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:41   #177
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
i'd be very surprised if gordon didn't hold that view.

but no there's no obvious necessity to hold both views: licensing of the sale of alcohol can be accepted as administrative co-ordination and control as well as being a method of collecting government revenue.
that's a good point, thanks. Could we see this recent banning in the same light? administrative control of where people can smoke?
Quote:
If on the other hand (your view) you accept that the government can do whatever it likes then you wouldn't disagree with the gov banning black people from pubs.
no, it's not really my view and I'd prefer it if you didn't claim it was. I don't really see the comparison between control of where all people are allowed to consume certain products or do certain things, and control of where a subset of people based on some phenotypical feature are allowed to go.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:42   #178
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

As an aside, I would LOVE to see smoking banned from the streets.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:42   #179
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-X
remind us what "pub" is short for?
public house, but bear in mind it is just a name. If I said "this is not a pub, it is an inn" should it make a difference? Should I be allowed to send my child to a public school for free, just because they call themselves public schools?
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:44   #180
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
As an aside, I would LOVE to see smoking banned from the streets.
likewise, though whether it should be or not, I don't know. I really hate being stuck downwind or in bus stops where people are smoking.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:46   #181
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
no, it's not really my view and I'd prefer it if you didn't claim it was. I don't really see the comparison between control of where all people are allowed to consume certain products or do certain things, and control of where a subset of people based on some phenotypical feature are allowed to go.
At which point is the line drawn on the removal of personal liberties?
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:46   #182
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
that's a good point, thanks. Could we see this recent banning in the same light? administrative control of where people can smoke?
no because it's a ban.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:49   #183
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
At which point is the line drawn on the removal of personal liberties?
I have no idea what the answer to that should be. I suppose it depends on what ones aims are when setting up these personal liberties.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:50   #184
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
your magical powers now extend to omnipresence i see.

good one kura.

(i'm not laughing 'with' you )
Thats good to know, since I always imagined you laughing to be akin to the stereotypical evil genius "take over the world" laugh.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:51   #185
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
no because it's a ban.
what's the difference between me not being allowed to smoke in a pub and say, me not being allowed to drink beer in Toys R us? I'm not allowed to drink beer there I assume.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:53   #186
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
At which point is the line drawn on the removal of personal liberties?
Ask your MP.

Seriously.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:54   #187
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
what's the difference between me not being allowed to smoke in a pub and say, me not being allowed to drink beer in Toys R us? I'm not allowed to drink beer there I assume.
because you can drink beer in pubs.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:54   #188
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward

I have no idea what the answer to that should be. I suppose it depends on what ones aims are when setting up these personal liberties.
Sorry i should have been a bit clearier. That is the comparision between the two views. It was more of a retorical question (my english is shit )

Their is a huge difference between banning certain races of people from places and banning certain things being consumed. But they are both a removal of the liberties that we have. And our ability to make choices and desicions based on how we live our lives.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:56   #189
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

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Originally Posted by Radical Edward
what's the difference between me not being allowed to smoke in a pub and say, me not being allowed to drink beer in Toys R us? I'm not allowed to drink beer there I assume.
Because I assume beer is banned from Toys R Us due to management policy, based around the fact that we have a lot of cultural myths related to alcohol and childhood, and Toys R Us wont want to tarnish their reputation as a family store. This is perfectly fine, and its their right to do so. And if the management of a pub chose to ban smoking in order to market the establishment to non-smokers, that would also be fine.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 14:58   #190
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

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Originally Posted by Squishy
Sorry i should have been a bit clearier. That is the comparision between the two views. It was more of a retorical question (my english is shit )

Their is a huge difference between banning certain races of people from places and banning certain things being consumed. But they are both a removal of the liberties that we have. And our ability to make choices and desicions based on how we live our lives.

oh, I didn't misunderstand you, and my answer would be the same. the removal, or rather giving of liberties would depend on what kind of society you wanted to set up. I don't really think that liberties are something that can be removed, unless there is some objective "list of liberties" somwehere that I have missed.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 15:01   #191
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Because I assume beer is banned from Toys R Us due to management policy, based around the fact that we have a lot of cultural myths related to alcohol and childhood, and Toys R Us wont want to tarnish their reputation as a family store. This is perfectly fine, and its their right to do so. And if the management of a pub chose to ban smoking in order to market the establishment to non-smokers, that would also be fine.

This is the point im trying to make. Taking desicions away from people on how to run their buisness/life is what i seriously have a problem with.

I like the fact theirs going to be less smoking in pubs. When i say less i mean it. Not many places will stick to this law. Prohibition doesnt work. But thats an argument for another time.

I just dont like the way its been gone about.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 15:01   #192
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
The proper solution would be to be less self-centered and let the pub owner decide on the policy, since it his pub and not yours. There is no conflict between 'smokers and non-smokers' here, just one between the owners of private businesses and the government. Your argument would be valid if we were discussing banning smoking on public property, such as the street or libraries, but that isnt the current issue.
I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that pub owners should be in some way responsible for not allowing the behaviour of one sub-set of their customers to adversely affect the health of another sub-set.

But more to the point, I don't think that the pub owners have as much of a choice right now as you think they do. If the current situation means that non-smokers would have to go very much out of their way to find a non-smoking pub, it is very hard for individual pubs to change to non-smoking without risking the entire business. I'm not convinced that changing to non-smoking is a viable option for pub owners at the moment, so while technically they can choose to do it, because it is legal, in practice it's not a reaslistic option.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 15:02   #193
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Because I assume beer is banned from Toys R Us due to management policy, based around the fact that we have a lot of cultural myths related to alcohol and childhood, and Toys R Us wont want to tarnish their reputation as a family store. This is perfectly fine, and its their right to do so. And if the management of a pub chose to ban smoking in order to market the establishment to non-smokers, that would also be fine.
I can see that, and I don't disagree with you, but I was really referring to the legal side of things. If I drank beer in toys are us, couldn't I be fined for doing so? I know I can be fined (at least according to certain bylaws) for drinking on the street, but how about on unlicensed premises?
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 15:04   #194
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

From the Barman's perspective - how is this different from the implementation of some other environmental/H&S standard? eg fire regulations/max capacity requirements?
"The market" will not persuade them to comply with the regulations.
They have no choice about it.
It could cause them a loss in revenue.
They need some kind of incentive to comply.
etc etc.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 15:05   #195
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

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Originally Posted by Jennifer
I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that pub owners should be in some way responsible for not allowing the behaviour of one sub-set of their customers to adversely affect the health of another sub-set.
they always were before this change.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 15:05   #196
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
it is very hard for individual pubs to change to non-smoking without risking the entire business. I'm not convinced that changing to non-smoking is a viable option for pub owners at the moment, so while technically they can choose to do it, because it is legal, in practice it's not a reaslistic option.

They woudnt risk lose of buisness if non-smokers are in the majority. If this isnt the case then its another 'vocal minority stuffs things up for the rest of us' situation. Which is hardly fair
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 15:08   #197
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

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Originally Posted by Jennifer
I I'm not convinced that changing to non-smoking is a viable option for pub owners at the moment, so while technically they can choose to do it, because it is legal, in practice it's not a reaslistic option.
Its been tried in 2 public houses on the Isle of Man within the last 12 months. Both suffered massive loss of trade, and re-instated the smokers within 1 month.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 15:09   #198
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that pub owners should be in some way responsible for not allowing the behaviour of one sub-set of their customers to adversely affect the health of another sub-set.
but when it comes to those subsets, surely the sobset that chose to enter a building where other people will be smoking (regardless of whether they choose themselves to partake in that activity) are responsible for being there? So the landlord shouldn't really have to protect them, since they have made that choice themselves. It's like if I went free climbing on a cliff where there are ropes, the person running the climbing ropes shouldn't be obliged to put out nets for me, because I chose to climb without a rope by myself
Quote:
But more to the point, I don't think that the pub owners have as much of a choice right now as you think they do. If the current situation means that non-smokers would have to go very much out of their way to find a non-smoking pub, it is very hard for individual pubs to change to non-smoking without risking the entire business. I'm not convinced that changing to non-smoking is a viable option for pub owners at the moment, so while technically they can choose to do it, because it is legal, in practice it's not a reaslistic option.
Yes, I can see that. Perhaps a year or so after the ban is introduced, then the government could introduce a system where publicans can have a smoking license. I think the balance might be found more easily that way. At the end of the day, I suppose it really depends on whether non-smokers would have as much of a problem going into a smoking pub, as smokers would have going into a non smoking pub.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 15:16   #199
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
From the Barman's perspective - how is this different from the implementation of some other environmental/H&S standard? eg fire regulations/max capacity requirements?
"The market" will not persuade them to comply with the regulations.
They have no choice about it.
It could cause them a loss in revenue.
They need some kind of incentive to comply.
etc etc.
this is kind of the point I was making with the "stray cat cafe". Personally I wouldn't really like a situation where health and safety legislation was overruled by market forces.
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Unread 15 Feb 2006, 15:18   #200
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Re: Total smoking ban passed (previously "Get in my son")

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Personally I wouldn't really like a situation where health and safety legislation was overruled by market forces.
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