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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 08:22   #1
SilverSmoke
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GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Dear GD,

I've got a little problem that fills me with anger and I would like to know what some of you great minds have to say about this situation. My girlfriend works, or better said; worked, in a clothing store. She uses public transport to get there and once in a while she can declare the costs of public transport by sending her bus/train tickets towards the central office from where the clothing stores gets coordinated.

She always stack up her bus and train tickets for a couple of months and last month it was time again to send in her tickets. Yesterday her area-manager walked in her store and came up to and insisted to sit down with him at the back of the store. He suggested that she probably already know why he's here. As she thought it was because of some orders she did for her department she pointed at that but he said it was about something else.

In the bunch of bustickets there where a couple of private costs she forgot about and now she gets fired because of this. He called it fraud. She was given the choice to either quit herself or let him fire her but then he will also contact the police because of fraud.
She was so shocked that she imidiately resigned herself.

Now I was thinking, ofcourse they can consider this fraud as it isnt very clever of her but is it that bad? She didn't have bad intentions, she was just being stupid. Also she never claimed that there where no private costs on the busstickets involved. You have to know, over here the busstickets exist of an amount of spaces. Let's say 45 spaces. To travel to her work it cost about 5 or 6 spaces, doesn't really matter. In between there where a couple of used spaces for private travels. It's not like she send in entire tickets only used for private destinations.

Another point of importance is, I believe, that she got fired by her area-manager.
Last month, she had a problem with one of the floormanagers so she asked transferation to another store. She didn't go to her area-manager to do this request but passed him and went to the guy who is higher in hierarchy then this area manager. He wasn't amused by this. So this sounds a bit like a stick to hit the dog with.

She doesn't really mind of being fired as it was a shit job with a shit salary, what makes her so upset is that she has been painted as a criminal.

Do you people think or know that she has any grounds of justification? Or should we just swallow this and go on with life?

I wouldn't mind paying for a lawyer if that is needed, I want to see them getting hit back for frustrating me and my girlfriend like this.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 08:49   #2
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

surely they would have to prove that the fraud was intended. If it wasn't intentional, it was carelessness, not fraud. I would have told them to take it to the police.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:20   #3
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

She should have asked him to phone the police. I doubt they'd have been amused by their time being wasted by this sort of shit.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:21   #4
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Yeah, but she didn't, she just swallowed everything in shock and signed her resignation.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:23   #5
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

That's correct Ed, the extent to which private costs were included would be a factor as to whether it would even get that far, but I doubt it's even an issue.

I don't think the Area Manager had a clue what he was talking about, I wonder somewhat whether he even had permission to have that meeting (With his efforts to have her resign).
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:47   #6
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

I'd kick up a fuss if I were you (her). While it may have been a shit job or whatever I doubt she deserved to be dismissed like that.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:47   #7
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

ITT silversmoke discovers that all muslims are criminals.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:49   #8
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
ITT silversmoke discovers that all muslims are criminals.

Where the **** do you see muslims in this story?
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:50   #9
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'd kick up a fuss if I were you (her). While it may have been a shit job or whatever I doubt she deserved to be dismissed like that.

Yes, that's what i am saying to her but she seems to be a passive ****.


It annoys the shit out of me.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:56   #10
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

she should get a meeting with the boss of the man who fired her, i expect he will have been asked to lower his staff travel budget and thought this would be a cheap and simple way of doing so (new shop assistants are easy enough to hire)
now that she is calm and reasonable about it she can calmly threaten to sue for unfair dismissal with intimidation. she should insist that she is reimbursed for the travel tickets (as was agreed as part of her working conditions) and that she should be paid a months wages in compensation for the lack of notice of contract termination (or however many months is normal for that sort of job)
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:57   #11
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

oh and she should insist of a good reference as she no longer desires to work for a company with such terrible staff management.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:57   #12
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

I'm pretty passive like that as well. I usually just sit around on my ass and do nothing even when I think I've been "wronged". I'm not sure what kind of person your girlfriend is but maybe you could take the first steps for her (without not having sex for weeks that is).
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 10:04   #13
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

madi's answer for the win, basically
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 10:19   #14
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm not sure what kind of person your girlfriend is but maybe you could take the first steps for her
This is a terrible idea fyi


also girlfriend lol
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 10:21   #15
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
This is a terrible idea fyi
So was communism. But would the world be half as bright and happy a place if nobody had been silly enough to go through with it?
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 10:22   #16
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSmoke
Where the **** do you see muslims in this story?

sorry. i'm always mistaking you for flavius.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 10:34   #17
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSmoke
Yeah, but she didn't, she just swallowed everything in shock and signed her resignation.
Well she has signed it.

Hmm, signiatures present a problem unless she goes to someone and says they threatened her with this unless she signed the signature and she signed it because she was scared. There might be some kind of constructive dismissal legislation that might be useful.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 10:35   #18
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSmoke
Where the **** do you see muslims in this story?
when things go wrong, muslims are always involved. Just ask any Christian Fundamentalist.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 10:48   #19
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

As much as I would admire fighting against "the man", the fact she's resigned probably means she should chalk this down to experience and go and get another job. Unless she really liked this job / it was well paid / etc.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 10:52   #20
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

That's what she thinks as well. Me however, would like to face this asshole in court.. I guess I should let it go.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 11:32   #21
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Get over it.

It was a rubbish job with rubbish pay. Griping and moaning about it is all very well, but I think you know she doesn't want to make a big thing about it.

Let it go and help her get a new job. And when she bitches about the old job, nod and bitch about it too.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 11:53   #22
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
Well she has signed it.

Hmm, signiatures present a problem unless she goes to someone and says they threatened her with this unless she signed the signature and she signed it because she was scared. There might be some kind of constructive dismissal legislation that might be useful.
I would say the statement that he would get the police involved is enough to consisitute a threat. Its one things to say you can resign or be sacked but to say resign or the police will be called is going too far and isthreatening.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 12:38   #23
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Was she offered HR or Union Representation, what does her contract say about gross misconduct and her rights to appeal, the fact that she resigned means she has admitted to the fraud but if she can prove she was intimidated into signing then she should be able to take the store to a tribunal
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 12:40   #24
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

I just told her that, about the intimidation thing but it seems she doesn't care or hasn't got the balls to do something about it which annoy me as much as the entire situation so I better stop concentrating on her problems.


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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:09   #25
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

silversmoke,tell her that unless she does something about it, people will just walk all over her.
She needs to stand up for herself
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:12   #26
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

oh, and does what the area manager did, constitute as blackmail?
"resign yourself, or i'll fire you and get the police involved"
especially when she didnt do anything intentionally wrong.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:18   #27
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

I told her all that, but she doesn't want to discuss it anymore for today.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:24   #28
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

As far as i know dutch law, i think its best for her not to quit herself at all. Indeed with Strippenkaarten its rather messy to sort it administratiion-wise. I think if he has to fire her, and assuming she has a steady contract, he will get a really hard time doing so. As for the fraude thing, first of all, it has to be proven by the OM that she did in ON PURPOSE, you cannot really by accident commit fraude and get prosecuted for it, her aim had to be to personally gain from her actions. And listening to the story, i doubt that was her intention.

For a company to fire her, they have to have good grounds to do so, and i'd take the risk of him going to the police tbh. They may have the right to suspend her while things are investigated. If she quits herself she has no rights at all, so make her stay:P
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:29   #29
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

As I've written several times already, she resigned herself after she felt intimidated by the threat of the police.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:29   #30
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Oh and i sort of understand she already signed for her resignation? WTF was that guy doing there? He had thre papers all ready for that?
I think indeed she could claim she was overwhelmed and intimidated by the conversation as she had NO clue about this all, wich, if taken to court, would be enuff to make the paper she signed not legal. Is she a member of an Union?
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:30   #31
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

yes yes, but i didnot quite get the fact she SIGNED for it,
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:32   #32
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

I don't think she's member of a union. Anyway, it seems she's not interested in standing up for herself so I start to wonder why I am..
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:36   #33
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

I dont wonder why you are, I am more curiouis why she is NOT. Clearly, even if you hate the job, if you are falsely accused and given a bad reputation like this, id be pissed as hell.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 14:01   #34
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigrid
I dont wonder why you are, I am more curiouis why she is NOT.
Because it doesnt matter. It wasnt an important job, so losing it isnt that big a deal. Her 'reputation' hasnt been tarnished because theres no permanent record on her file, and those who know her will be aware that the company is in the wrong. If a company wants to fire you then theres no point crying about (unless theyre violating a contract in which case the courts are your best option); if youre actually competant then they're the ones who will be hurt in the long run (assuming they do this to most of their employees).

If I was her I'd write a brief letter to the floor manager's superviser so that he was aware what his underlings were doing, but if he didnt care about I'd move on because at the end of the day, it isnt that important.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 15:15   #35
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Leave the GF and declare your love for KoeN. Be happy for all time and make lots of babies.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 15:18   #36
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Oh damn, did I just see a lol silversmoke is a fag joke?

Just right there?! LOLOLOL?



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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 15:37   #37
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

She should talk to her ex-manager's boss. This will casts doubts on your girlfriend's manager if nothing else. Then she should count it as a blessing - she'll get a better job in a better company. Next time, get your girlfriend to talk to her manager's boss before she quits.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:05   #38
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

I am not sure where you are from m8, However if it was in the UK, In the Contract unless stated that mileage or traveling expenses is to be paid, then the employee is responcible for commuting forth and back to the place of work. However if stated in say a staff handbook that traveling expenses are paid in some cases, then there is gounds to dispute this... For example traveling cost will be covered if asked to work in another branch that you are not based at.

I am not familar with her old firms displinary procedure was, Most places of work do an investigatory meeting to establish if there is a breach of the expenses procedure of the company.The company can then decide to suspend the employee pending a displinary meeting (full pay on contracted hours is the usual standard) Before a displinary meeting is held in which a fellow colleague or trade union representative can attend with the person...Also the boss needs a witness in a form of a collegue of a similar job but must be more senior than the person being displined. Ideally another area manager. But not the area manager's boss as that would be the next line of appeal.

As there is new laws in to displinary and appeal procedure in the UK.
On the basis that your GF was fired on the grounds of Gross Misconduct.
as other grounds would need past evidence of displinaries (ie writen warnings)
If your GF had let her boss fire her, she could then appeal in writing before 5 days to the next level of manager (the area manager's boss), for example a company director or regional manager. In which a full investigation would need to be carried out. (as should have happened with the area manager).

As your Girlfriend is no longer with the firm, I would seek legal advice and take the employers to an industrial tribuneral on the grounds of constructive dismissal.
the solicitor will advise you best. But this is on the basis you are from the UK and the story has no missing details.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:24   #39
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Quote:
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Asyour Girlfriend is no longer with the firm, I would seek legal advice and take the employers to an industrial tribuneral on the grounds of constructive dismissal.
the solicitor will advise you best. But this is on the basis you are from the UK and the story has no missing details.
Wait what. She worked in a clothing store with poor pay. It doesn't work like that.

If constructive dismissal was worth claiming in these kinds of cases then a lot of ex-dustmen would be lounging in Miami mansions right now rather than plodding along a shitty terrace in Hackney.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:27   #40
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
ITT silversmoke discovers that all muslims are criminals.
Next you will be saying all muslims carrying rucksacks should be shot because they might be carrying a bomb. (aint presumptions a bitch)

Remember... Doesn't matter if they are black, white, asian, hispanic. Arseholes will be arseholes.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:30   #41
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

I've considered all angles and the best thing for Silversmoke to do is to arrange for the GD possie to go and give this manager a bit of a 'visit' if you know what I mean.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:31   #42
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Dog
Wait what. She worked in a clothing store with poor pay. It doesn't work like that.

If constructive dismissal was worth claiming in these kinds of cases then a lot of ex-dustmen would be lounging in Miami mansions right now rather than plodding along a shitty terrace in Hackney.
If she wasn't paid "cash in hand" and the firm paid her tax and NI contributions.
She will have them rights automatically.

Edit and a contract of employment ofc.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:33   #43
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Sorry to be a lawyer and ruin all the exciting ideas with that boring old thing called 'reality' but legally she hasn't got a leg to stand on and she should count herself lucky that they didn't prosecute her for 'fraud'. Because if they did she'd never work again.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:43   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies
If she wasn't paid "cash in hand" and the firm paid her tax and NI contributions.
She will have them rights automatically.

Edit and a contract of employment ofc.
Right I only got my law degree a year and a half ago so I might be a bit rusty on some of these details.

In order to claim constructive dismissal she has to qualify as an employee. Good stuff. Then she has to assert that her 'dismissal' was unfair. Good luck. She was asked to leave because she handed in false expenses. That's called fair.

People don't apply for constructive dismissal because it's hard to prove, tribunals don't like it, any proceedings are stressful and take up a lot of time and finally the level of compensation is fairly small.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:45   #45
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Sorry to be a lawyer and ruin all the exciting ideas with that boring old thing called 'reality' but legally she hasn't got a leg to stand on and she should count herself lucky that they didn't prosecute her for 'fraud'. Because if they did she'd never work again.
maybe, maybe not...Which was why I said that she should seek legal advise.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:47   #46
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies
maybe, maybe not...Which was why I said that she should seek legal advise.
no

i am a lawyer

i have the virtue of being free out of the goodness of my heart.

SHE DOES NOT HAVE A CASE.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:51   #47
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no

i am a lawyer
Where and what are you lawyering at the moment?

Since you always seem to know a lot more than me, I might pick your brains for some advice when I get around to thinking about horrible things like careers.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:54   #48
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Dog
Where and what are you lawyering at the moment?

Since you always seem to know a lot more than me, I might pick your brains for some advice when I get around to thinking about horrible things like careers.
PM me or come find me in #Forums one night. my wig is a little dusty but i may be of some use.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 17:08   #49
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
no

i am a lawyer

i have the virtue of being free out of the goodness of my heart.

SHE DOES NOT HAVE A CASE.
What I don't know is

1. Are you a UK lawyer (or more importantly a lawyer from silversmokes country)
2. Do you specialise in Employment law.

For example if a Displinary procedure is not adhered to... The boss fired her without notice of the displinary meeting happening and not allow/ not informed her she can have representation from another employee / trade union representative. these might be grounds to do so.

I am not doubting your credentals, I am just saying that seeking legal council would advise her about her options... Someone who has a law degree but also the experience in these types of cases. (which I do not know if you have or not)
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 17:42   #50
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Re: GF forced to quit job, advice needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies
For example if a Displinary procedure is not adhered to... The boss fired her without notice of the displinary meeting happening and not allow/ not informed her she can have representation from another employee / trade union representative. these might be grounds to do so.
well they're not.
UNSURPRISINGLY you're allowed to sack people who committ crimes against you without needing to first write them a stern letter

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies
I am not doubting your credentals, I am just saying that seeking legal council would advise her about her options... Someone who has a law degree but also the experience in these types of cases. (which I do not know if you have or not)
i'm not going to ****ing pm you my cv just to get you to stop typing crap.

this girl has no legal options. AS I STATED BEFORE: she is very lucky that they didn't prosecute her.

paying my colleagues money is not going to change these facts.
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