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Unread 7 Jun 2006, 19:14   #1
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Proof Tony is a Tory?

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...m?id=824002006

Quote:
TONY Blair is backing a controversial plan to provide a state funeral for one of the Labour Party's most reviled enemies of recent decades: Margaret Thatcher.

Scotland on Sunday can reveal that civil servants have been working for months on the details of Baroness Thatcher's funeral, even though there is no suggestion the 80-year-old is suffering from any life-threatening condition.

But Blair believes Thatcher's eventual passing should be marked with the first state funeral for a commoner since Winston Churchill more than 40 years ago.

The proposal has astounded constitutional experts, who argue that - royalty aside - the honour is normally reserved for politicians who "saved the country at times of dire need".

The funeral plan has also sparked furious debate at the heart of the New Labour government, with a number of ministers opposing such a mark of respect for a Conservative Prime Minister.

The move is also likely to provoke a furious backlash from the grass roots of the party, where Thatcher is still detested for her stout opposition to the unions and policies in areas including employment, privatisation, gay rights and the Poll Tax during her 11 years in office.

One Labour MP last night claimed the proposal proved Blair and his advisers in Downing Street had "finally lost contact with reality".

The blueprint being drawn up within the Cabinet Office lays out a route for the funeral cortege through central London. It is believed it would take in Trafalgar Square, the scene of wild victory celebrations at the end of the Falklands War in 1982, and a riot against the Poll Tax seven years later. It would pass down Whitehall past Downing Street, her home from 1979 to 1990, on its way to the Houses of Parliament.

Past state funerals have involved a lying-in-state for several days in Westminster Hall, but it is believed that the plans for Thatcher favour a ceremonial route leading directly to a service at Westminster Abbey. St Paul's Cathedral is another option under consideration.

The state ceremony is a highly unusual move for any "commoner". Churchill was accorded the honour in 1965 in recognition of his leadership during the Second World War.
Does this also mean that the odds on the "who will die next" poll need to be shortened as well?
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Unread 7 Jun 2006, 19:15   #2
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
TONY Blair is backing a controversial plan to provide a state funeral for one of the Labour Party's most reviled enemies of recent decades: Margaret Thatcher.
Up there with saddam hussein and ossama bin laden!
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Unread 7 Jun 2006, 19:20   #3
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
The proposal has astounded constitutional experts, who argue that - royalty aside - the honour is normally reserved for politicians who "saved the country at times of dire need".
So whats the problem here then?

State funerals are stupid anyway, especially when theyre for royalty. If anyone should be commemorated (and they shouldnt be, in this way), then those who achieved something noteworthy would be a better choice.
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Unread 7 Jun 2006, 19:31   #4
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

come on, am I the only person cacking myself laughing at the fact that the leader of the Labour party is talking to the press about Thatcher's funerary arrangements? Twenty years ago he'd have been arrested for incitement
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Unread 7 Jun 2006, 23:47   #5
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

to be fair, who isn't making plans for the day the old hag finally kicks the bucket. Champagne anyone?
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 00:05   #6
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

By god she saved the Falklands from Argentinian agression! A noble act worthy of a state funeral.

I will certainly attend if invited.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 00:10   #7
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

I totally agree with a state funeral for her, for reasons that I've previously discussed on the forum.


On a side note, I've now decided that I'm not going to vote for Cameron. His euro-scepticism is starting to scare me. He's also tending towards some social conservatism which is the antithesis of my political beliefs. It's not just that one incident either - it's a total failure to disavow the right-wing of the Tory party in favour of liberal conservatism (One Nation Conservatism).
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 00:27   #8
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
On a side note, I've now decided that I'm not going to vote for Cameron. His euro-scepticism is starting to scare me. He's also tending towards some social conservatism which is the antithesis of my political beliefs
How is this social conservatism? Do your political beliefs involve liking shitty music or something?
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 00:47   #9
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I totally agree with a state funeral for her, for reasons that I've previously discussed on the forum.
Can you link to some of the posts you have in mind in particular? All I can see from a quick search is something about unions not shutting down the country and some stuff about Northern Ireland.

I don't think it's really worth getting upset one way or the other about Thatcher. There are lasting legacies in terms of the trade unions, but British industry has declined dramatically in any case so I'm not sure what sort of victory that represents (cue the old joke ; "I'm glad Thacther won the miners strike or the British Coal industry could be in real trouble today").

I suppose the biggest change would be to the financial services markets and how monetary policy is handled. Most of the other big issues she cared about (local taxation, controlling public spending, relationship with Europe, trying to maintain some sort of British credibility in international military terms, trying to preserve some sort of 'Britishness' in general, the role of local government) are still yet to be solved or have moved in directions Mrs T would probably not have approved.

Having said all that, I can think of better ways of spending public funds than on a funeral for a relatively well off private individual, but it's not like it really matters.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 01:18   #10
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
to be fair, who isn't making plans for the day the old hag finally kicks the bucket. Champagne anyone?
Oh aye... Make mines a Double

Thank fk she only wreaked the shipyards and not the distilleries
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 01:32   #11
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

I support this motion, if only because she'll be sponging of the state
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 01:44   #12
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Can you link to some of the posts you have in mind in particular? All I can see from a quick search is something about unions not shutting down the country and some stuff about Northern Ireland.
It's only really that debate with T&F that I can think of on the top of my head - perhaps I was a little generous to myself in using the phrase that I did. On reflection, it may set an unfortunate precedent in giving Thatcher a state funeral, unless done on the basis of the Falklands War and not her Prime Ministership as a whole. For example, Tony Blair would then be 'entitled' to a state funeral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
How is this social conservatism? Do your political beliefs involve liking shitty music or something?


It's not the music that's the issue, it's his attack on a radio station for playing popular music that's the context here. It's little different to the outrage at Elvis for his corrupting of innocent youth through the gyration of his hips. Won't somebody please think of the children!
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 01:53   #13
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

But popular hiphop quite obviously does glorify violence and gun-use so its not like he's saying anything particularly controversial. If he were actually advocating censorship then that would be different, but the only time censorship is hinted at in that article is in reference to David Blunkett.

edit: The "Elvis gyrating his hips" comparasion is misleading - the reaction against this was an example of social conservatism, since puritanical attitudes towards sex are traditional conservative values. However, I dont think that "not shooting people" qualifies as a uniquely conservative position.

Last edited by Nodrog; 8 Jun 2006 at 02:03.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 02:06   #14
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But popular hiphop quite obviously does glorify violence and gun-use so its not like he's saying anything particularly controversial. If he were actually advocating censorship then that would be different, but the only time censorship is hinted at in that article is in reference to David Blunkett.

edit: The "Elvis gyrating his hips" comparasion is misleading - the reaction against this was an example of social conservatism, since puritanical attitudes towards sex are traditional conservative values. However, I dont think that "not shooting people" qualifies as a uniquely conservative position.
However, he's criticising the radio station for playing the music as opposed to criticising the music itself. That I believe to be a mistake, as well as the type of reaction commonly associated with those on the social right.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 02:11   #15
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Bury her in a coal mine
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 02:11   #16
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Well BBC radio is state funded and its whole rationale for existing is that it should be outside market forces - the fact that music is popular doesnt mean the BBC should play it, otherwise you'd be listening to Britney Speares on BBC 2.. When the radio station is funded by the government, I dont see why theres a problem with the government commenting on what it should play. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into things here, but I would have reacted differently if he were complaining about a private radio station, or internet radio, or anything else that wasnt state apparatus.

There are stations in London which pretty much only play hiphop and R&B, so the fact hes singled out the BBC in particular suggests that it could be because its a government radio station.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 02:16   #17
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Give Thatcher a state funeral!!!!!!!!!11111111111111oneoneoneleveneleven
I cant see what she has actually done to deserve a state funeral.

She ****ed up our reputation in Europe

She screwed over the unions

Denationalised our industries

Used an easy war to hide her shitness

amongst many other shit things.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 02:18   #18
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

high end hiphop (though this doesn't necesarrily equate to most popular) is lyrically far far more progressive than rock/pop, infact id go as far as to say that, with notable exceptions (manic street preachers et al) ever since the days of alternative/grunge rock the lyrical ability of most rock bands has been little short of infantile and incoherent screaming. Besides if the kids want to glamorise violence who are we to stop them?
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 02:18   #19
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Well BBC radio is state funded and its whole rationale for existing is that it should be outside market forces - the fact that music is popular doesnt mean the BBC should play it, otherwise you'd be listening to Britney Speares on BBC 2.. When the radio station is funded by the government, I dont see why theres a problem with the government commenting on what it should play. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into things here, but I would have reacted differently if he were complaining about a private radio station, or internet radio, or anything else that wasnt state apparatus.

There are stations in London which pretty much only play hiphop and R&B, so the fact hes singled out the BBC in particular suggests that it could be because its a government radio station.
That's certainly one way of looking at it, but looking at the context I don't think that was the way he meant it. Instead I think that he used Radio 1 as an example of all radio stations who play hip-hop and similarly-orientated music.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 02:22   #20
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I cant see what she has actually done to deserve a state funeral.

She ****ed up our reputation in Europe
Actually we were considered a fairly strong European country, having the mettle to force the rebate. It was the in-fighting in Major's government that destroyed our European reputation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
She screwed over the unions

Denationalised our industries
In past debates I've outlined why I don't think this was such a bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Used an easy war to hide her shitness
You either take back the Falklands, or you don't. She did the right thing and chose to protect the self-determination of the Falkland Islanders. Go her. The timing may have been fortituitous but you can't exactly argue that she arranged the war because of her flagging poll ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
amongst many other shit things.
And you're out of examples. Not that I don't expect that there are many more. As you'll see above, I've changed my mind over the suitability of a state funeral due to the precedent it would set.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 02:28   #21
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I cant see what she has actually done to deserve a state funeral.

She ****ed up our reputation in Europe

She screwed over the unions

Denationalised our industries

Used an easy war to hide her shitness

amongst many other shit things.
dont forget the "Poll tax"
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 02:40   #22
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
high end hiphop (though this doesn't necesarrily equate to most popular) is lyrically far far more progressive than rock/pop, infact id go as far as to say that, with notable exceptions (manic street preachers et al) ever since the days of alternative/grunge rock the lyrical ability of most rock bands has been little short of infantile and incoherent screaming. Besides if the kids want to glamorise violence who are we to stop them?
I explicitly said popular hiphop, and Cameron was talking about the stuff that was likely to get played on the radio. But anyway, its not very surprising that a style of music which is essentially just about lyrics has more progressive (whatever that means) lyrics than a style of music in which they are normally secondary.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 02:48   #23
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Actually we were considered a fairly strong European country, having the mettle to force the rebate. It was the in-fighting in Major's government that destroyed our European reputation.
Unfortunately Im going to disagree.

We were considered strong only because of our population, economy and past military power. Thats fair enough. But we were a pain in the arse in Europe. Thatcher destroyed any credibility we had.

She came into office with a skeptical mind and left office disgraced. When she came into office Britain was potentially florishing in Europe. Post World War II churchill dictated that Britain had three spheres of influence it was involved in. The Empire, USA and Europe. Britain rejected Europe and instead went for the pro empire and USA approach. With the failures of the empire and the fact that Britain was a country in decline politically (influence, military etc)..Suez would be a prime example of this where the USA told us to step down. We then turned our eyes to Europe. After the turbulent application process by MacMillan etc and the cnut that is DeGaulle rejecting it we finally made into Europe.

Europe wanted us. Europe was succeeding without us yet they wanted us. This showed our potential power in Europe. When we were at a point in time where we could have turned this to our advantage instead we elected Thatcher. She came in and instead of building bridges with Europe she burnt them down again by strengthening her relations with the USA (much like Bush and Blair) and angering Europe.

Strasbourg in 1979 the EC agrees to examne Britains rebate, then in Dublin they make an offer of £350 million. Thatcher wanted 1 billion. Come the 1980 May mandate Thatcher tries to hold the whole thing up and derail it. Thankgod she was outvoted but she gained a bad reputation amongst her European peers. Once again in 1983 at the solemn declaration Thatcher tried to hold it up, once again this produced immense ill will (seeing the pattern?)

At Brussels in 1984 she yet again threw another wobbly daring something that no other European country had done which was to hold back our contribution. This didnt help her gain respect from Europe once again it just angered them. The funny thing is that in the end at Fontainbleau she finally won this oh so great rebate. Well in the end she gained 1 billion ECU which was a 1/3 less of the original amount. In the end there was no permenant rebate formula sorted out.

However I think one of the worst things she did in Europe was the Bruges speech of 1988. If theres a way to anger Europeans its too look down on them. She called Jacques Delors a Socialst who was undermining the treaty of rome (jacques delors imo is one of the best europeans in the EU for his thinking towards Europe and how it should work) She said that Socialist ideas were creeping in through the back door of Brussels and she Repudiated much of the SEA such as border checks, customs etc. Basically she made Britain seem so far away from being European and being part of it as possible.

It wasnt just the Europeans who were angered by Thatchers approach to Europe it was also Nigel Lawson and Geoffery Howe who both resigned. It also lead to her downfall in the conservative party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
You either take back the Falklands, or you don't. She did the right thing and chose to protect the self-determination of the Falkland Islanders. Go her. The timing may have been fortituitous but you can't exactly argue that she arranged the war because of her flagging poll ratings.
What was so great about the falklands? As you say it was as simple as either taking it back or not. She took it back. Congratulations for her. She didnt do anything amazing, not as if we werent going to overthrow the masses of the argentinans on the island. It was a walk in a park. We outnumbered and outgunned them. What it did do was make people get all Nationalistic and put that feel good factor back in. In my opinion this factor of a successful war (which is always rather rare even in modern times) clouds the fact that she was destroying this country. If Iraq was a success and a walkover and iraqis were happy im sure many would be happy with blair. Ten years down the line people may see what a cock up (if he has) he has done of this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
And you're out of examples. Not that I don't expect that there are many more. As you'll see above, I've changed my mind over the suitability of a state funeral due to the precedent it would set.
I could write a dissertation on the failures of Thatcher.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 03:32   #24
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
She didnt do anything amazing, not as if we werent going to overthrow the masses of the argentinans on the island. It was a walk in a park. We outnumbered and outgunned them. What it did do was make people get all Nationalistic and put that feel good factor back in. In my opinion this factor of a successful war (which is always rather rare even in modern times) clouds the fact that she was destroying this country.
Granted, i know rather little regarding Thatcher's domestic policies, other than the obvious, however i know a little bit about the Falklands War. It was hardly a "walk in the park" - At least four RN ships were destroyed - including two large air defence destroyers due to missiles (HMS Sheffield) and due to gravity bombs (HMS Coventry), plus a couple of frigates. At least one Fleet Auxiliary was also destroyed, and a number of other ships were damaged through a variety of means. Additionally, troops on the islands itself took a bit of a beating, loosing something like 200 killed and thus about 600 wounded. Massive logistical problems were obviously going to make the task difficult too. Whilst nothing like losses suffered through WW2, they were still significant in the modern age.

Thatcher was prime minister during a time when british soil was successfully attacked and invaded by a foreign nation state, and subsequently recaptured it. That's pretty rare in historical terms.

Personally, i dont have a problem with a State funeral for Thatcher. Mind, i'm not a pom and thus it wont be my tax money paying for it either.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 03:54   #25
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
What was so great about the falklands? As you say it was as simple as either taking it back or not. She took it back. Congratulations for her. She didnt do anything amazing, not as if we werent going to overthrow the masses of the argentinans on the island. It was a walk in a park. We outnumbered and outgunned them. What it did do was make people get all Nationalistic and put that feel good factor back in. In my opinion this factor of a successful war (which is always rather rare even in modern times) clouds the fact that she was destroying this country. If Iraq was a success and a walkover and iraqis were happy im sure many would be happy with blair. Ten years down the line people may see what a cock up (if he has) he has done of this country.
I'd hardly call the Falklands a "walk in the park". It has the greatest military losses to date since WW2. The fact is, the people living there didn't want the Argentinians in control of the Islands, and as they were semi-British citizens, we responded appropriatly

EDIT: Damn you Ultimate Newbie, I spent ages researching that
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 04:05   #26
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

We still won, in any war you go into it willing to take losses. Thats a given. The fact is we won and quite frankly for the amount we spend on our military id be ashamed if we didnt.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 09:47   #27
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
I'd hardly call the Falklands a "walk in the park". It has the greatest military losses to date since WW2. The fact is, the people living there didn't want the Argentinians in control of the Islands, and as they were semi-British citizens, we responded appropriatly

EDIT: Damn you Ultimate Newbie, I spent ages researching that
It is the only plus side i can think of "Maggie"
An invasion of Britain sovereignty, I hope the argentinians are grateful we stopped at the falklands and didnt went on to the mainland.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 10:17   #28
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I think the nation should come together to celebrate Thatcher's death.
A state celebration would be very good yes.
A state funeral? Hell no.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 11:19   #29
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by idimmu
There were no chavs in Thatcher's Britain.
Yes there were. And anyway, even if you say chavs were created in the year 2000 that would put the "blame" squarely on the government's of the Thatcher/Major years (although that's fairly ridiculous since it overrates the power of government to a ludicrous degree).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
I'd hardly call the Falklands a "walk in the park". It has the greatest military losses to date since WW2.
What? I presume you mean "highest losses for the UK", right? In which case it's hardly in massive competetion.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 11:37   #30
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

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Bury her in a coal mine
Amen
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 13:25   #31
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Exclamation Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

This is the final proof, if ever we needed it, that Blair has no political judgement whatsoever.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 13:31   #32
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I explicitly said popular hiphop, and Cameron was talking about the stuff that was likely to get played on the radio. But anyway, its not very surprising that a style of music which is essentially just about lyrics has more progressive (whatever that means) lyrics than a style of music in which they are normally secondary.
developing the music whilst keeping the lyrics coherent; id equate kanye west's diamonds from sierra leone as being as 'worthy' (for lack of a better term) as 'if you tolerate this', not that all songs have to be politizised but i apppreciate a certain thoughful narrative or at the very least something that makes sense, i cringe when listenening to the red hot chili peppers - or falloutboy for that matter.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 13:33   #33
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
In centuries to come philosophers will look at the cancellation of Noel's House Party as one of the first steps towards civilisation.
...and the rise of deal or no deal?
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 13:40   #34
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
id equate kanye west's diamonds from sierra leone as being as 'worthy' (for lack of a better term) as 'if you tolerate this'
'If you tolerate this' is a pretty poor example of coherent or meaningful lyrics imho. If you're trying to evaluate rock by looking at the mainstream / popular artists then you're going to get a distorted picture - most of that is homogenised corporate pap.

Then again, if you're holding up Kanye West as any sort of example of non-shitness then all hope is probably lost for you.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 13:43   #35
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
'If you tolerate this' is a pretty poor example of coherent or meaningful lyrics imho. If you're trying to evaluate rock by looking at the mainstream / popular artists then you're going to get a distorted picture - most of that is homogenised corporate pap.

Then again, if you're holding up Kanye West as any sort of example of non-shitness then all hope is probably lost for you.
all im saying is im not listening to you because you take drugs
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 13:45   #36
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Counter-revolutionary cultural warfare. Ultimately it will be crushed under the wheels of history.

Edmonds has been at it for 30 years, 30 years! every so often we're promised eventual salvation but it never happens :cry:
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 13:46   #37
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Exclamation Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I totally agree with a state funeral for her, for reasons that I've previously discussed on the forum.
At what point does a politician deserve a state funeral, then, in your estimation? Thatcher presided over economic malaise and slump at home, and there were no great diplomatic or political advancements abroad during her tenure which she could claim sole possesion. She was a deeply divisive politician (the complete opposite of Churchill, who bound the nation together in a time of deep crisis) and was ultimately forced from office after bringing the country to the brink of major civil disturbances.

Based on her actual achievments, Thatcher is probably about as deserving of a state funeral as any other post-war Prime Minister is.

Why on earth you bang on about the greatness of Thatcher (Who hated the One-Nation tradition as the core of everything that was rotten in the Tory Party) on one hand and then start trumpeting the One-Nation tradition and castigating Cameron (Possibly the most One-Nation leader of the Tory Party since Ted Heath) for a supposed lack of adherance to it is anyone's guess.

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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 16:40   #38
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

I think when most people talk about the good Thatcher did (apart from right wing maniacs, naturally) they are referring to the economy and how it changed from the terrible weakness of the 70s to the decent strength it gained during her reign and has enjoyed since.

That's what my politics teacher told me anyway, granted, he was a bit of a tory, but it all seemed to make sense at the time. Focusing on interest rates rather than employment etc and VAT and all the other little things that (according to my teaching and what I know generally about the period) brought Britain out of an economic slump.

Obviously I'm not Tory but this is what I've always believed and read and it seems to be the prevailing opinion amongst people. If I'm wrong I would be very interested to hear why.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 17:05   #39
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Well BBC radio is state funded and its whole rationale for existing is that it should be outside market forces - the fact that music is popular doesnt mean the BBC should play it, otherwise you'd be listening to Britney Speares on BBC 2.. When the radio station is funded by the government, I dont see why theres a problem with the government commenting on what it should play. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into things here, but I would have reacted differently if he were complaining about a private radio station, or internet radio, or anything else that wasnt state apparatus.

There are stations in London which pretty much only play hiphop and R&B, so the fact hes singled out the BBC in particular suggests that it could be because its a government radio station.
this is a nodrog post about a state-funded institution that i don't disagree with
Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
high end hiphop (though this doesn't necesarrily equate to most popular) is lyrically far far more progressive than rock/pop, infact id go as far as to say that, with notable exceptions (manic street preachers et al) ever since the days of alternative/grunge rock the lyrical ability of most rock bands has been little short of infantile and incoherent screaming. Besides if the kids want to glamorise violence who are we to stop them?
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Hallelujah (Aleluya)
Written by George Friedrich Händel

Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah

For the lord God omnipotent reigneth
Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
For the lord God omnipotent reigneth
Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
For the lord God omnipotent reigneth
Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah

Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
(For the lord God omnipotent reigneth)
Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah

For the lord God omnipotent reigneth
(Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah)
Hallelujah

The kingdom of this world;
is become
the kingdom of our Lord,
and of His Christ
and of His Christ

And He shall reign for ever and ever
And he shall reign forever and ever
And he shall reign forever and ever
And he shall reign forever and ever

King of kings forever and ever hallelujah hallelujah
and lord of lords forever and ever hallelujah hallelujah
King of kings forever and ever hallelujah hallelujah
and lord of lords forever and ever hallelujah hallelujah
King of kings forever and ever hallelujah hallelujah
and lord of lords
King of kings and lord of lords

And he shall reign
And he shall reign
And he shall reign
He shall reign
And he shall reign forever and ever

King of kings forever and ever
and lord of lords hallelujah hallelujah
And he shall reign forever and ever

King of kings and lord of lords
King of kings and lord of lords
And he shall reign forever and ever

Forever and ever and ever and ever
(King of kings and lord of lords)

Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah
Hallelujah
if you think lyrics are at all relevant to the quality of music, you should be reading poetry, not listening to music.

and having sex with men (what with liking poetry and all).
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 17:24   #40
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
I think when most people talk about the good Thatcher did (apart from right wing maniacs, naturally) they are referring to the economy and how it changed from the terrible weakness of the 70s to the decent strength it gained during her reign and has enjoyed since.
You're probably correct, but I think the issue is what you mean by "terrible weakness" in the past and the "success" you're talking about now. These terms by themselves don't mean a great deal. Even when you get down to things people generally specify, it's debatable how much benefit they translate to us as individuals.

We certainly have lower inflation than in the past, our financial markets are stronger and house prices have increased dramatically but I'm not really sure any of those things have ushered in some new age of prosperity. Large numbers of people still have poor housing, lack of decent / any jobs, poor education, etc - and given that this was all achieved in a period with the North Sea oil "windfall" I'm not sure the idea of some Thatcher economic miracle stands up to much examination.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 17:31   #41
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
I think when most people talk about the good Thatcher did (apart from right wing maniacs, naturally) they are referring to the economy and how it changed from the terrible weakness of the 70s to the decent strength it gained during her reign and has enjoyed since.
For reference, the top rate of income tax was 83% (eighty three percent) when she took over, and 40% when she left. The standard rate dropped by 8% during her reign also. Given that she wasnt responsible for any genocide that I'm aware of, this alone would almost certainly be enough to balance out any bad caused by the rest of her policies.

Pretty much all of the privitisations she presided over involved things which should never have been nationalised in the first place. Even if youre a radically left wing lunatic, I'm not sure how you can begin to justfy the government owning an automobile manufacturer or an airline, to take 2 examples.

Any rational assessment of Thatcher must begin by acknowledging that Britain was a complete mess when she took over. When something is so fundamentally broken, its almost guaranteed that some people are going to end up getting hurt in the process of fixing things. Its not enough to say that "X many people suffered as a result of Thatcher" - you have to show that there was an alternative way of achieving the same results that would have hurt less people. In most instances, I dont think there was. She wasnt the one who created the bad situation, she just tried to fix things (and done a pretty damn good job, all things considered). I'm not saying that she was some perfect idealisation of leadership who deserves to be put on a pedestal alongside people like George Washington, and there was definitely a lot wrong with her (her attitude towards all kinds of freedom other than economic was nothing to shout about, although it was no worse than that of all other major politicians), but she was the still best 20th century British prime minister by a huge margin, although there admittedly isnt much in the way of competition.

its so deeply ingrained in popular culture that "Thatcher == bad" that I doubt most people have even bothered trying to assess her reign objectively (I mean hey, "everyone knows" she sucked, right?). Getting all emotional about miners and so on is a fairly superficial way of approaching politics - its easy to focus on the bad things that are happening, while refusing to investigate what the real causes are. It does sadly tend to be the case that its the people who try to fix the problems that end up being blamed for creating them.

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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 18:00   #42
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

poll tax poll tax poll tax poll tax poll tax poll tax
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 18:07   #43
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
if you think lyrics are at all relevant to the quality of music, you should be reading poetry, not listening to music.
.
It depends on the music. I doubt Bob Dylan would be very popular today if all his songs had been about pimps and hos.

Anyway, its a bit silly to compare hiphop to rock in terms of lyrical content. Its not really surprising that a form of music that is focused almost entirely on the lyrics normally has lyrics that are superior to those of a genre where they are often secondary.

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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 18:09   #44
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
poll tax poll tax poll tax poll tax poll tax poll tax
The polltax was obviously bad, but the reasons why most people oppose it are fairly hypocritical. Those that got up in arms about the poor having to pay such a large portion of their income in taxation didnt seem to be quite so sympatheic towards the productive people having to pay 83% of theris.

The good of Thatcher still significantly outweighs the bad - no politician is ever going to pefrect. I mean hey, Churchill was responsible for the reinstitution of slavery which was far worse than the poll tax, but most people still think hes awesome.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 18:25   #45
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The standard rate dropped by 8% during her reign also.
Since indirect taxation went up considerably in this period I'm not sure this is as meaningful as you make out. As I've said earlier ; in 1979 state spending represented 44.5% of GDP. In 1992 when she left it was 43.8%. Hardly rolling back the frontiers of the state.
Quote:
Any rational assessment of Thatcher must begin by acknowledging that Britain was a complete mess when she took over. When something is so fundamentally broken, its almost guaranteed that some people are going to end up getting hurt in the process of fixing things.
I think a rational assessment would start with your definition of "a mess" (I'm not actually disagreeing here - I'm just curious as to what you're emphasising).
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 18:30   #46
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The polltax was obviously bad, but the reasons why most people oppose it are fairly hypocritical. Those that got up in arms about the poor having to pay such a large portion of their income in taxation didnt seem to be quite so sympatheic towards the productive people having to pay 83% of theris.
what's hypocritical about that, exactly?

Quote:
The good of Thatcher still significantly outweighs the bad - no politician is ever going to pefrect. I mean hey, Churchill was responsible for the reinstitution of slavery which was far worse than the poll tax, but most people still think hes awesome.
the problem wth arguing against you is that your Randian lunacy stops you from looking at people like Attlee or Scargill with a sympathetic eye and as such saying that "the good" largely came from a halo effect or that "the bad" was all her own doing or that "the bad" substantially outweighed "the good" will meet with limited success.

(and Churchill's politics were, Jews aside (yes, I know it's a pretty ****ing big aside), about as bad as Hitler's. The only difference was that he was OUR demagogue.)
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 18:40   #47
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
It depends on the music. I doubt Bob Dylan would be very popular today if all his songs had been about pimps and hos.
however, dylan's songs are often very popular with people who have 0 idea of the meanings (especially when they are covered by groups with some modicum of vocal talent), and secondly one could argue...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Anyway, its a bit silly to compare hiphop to rock in terms of lyrical content. Its not really surprising that a form of music that is focused almost entirely on the lyrics normally has lyrics that are superior to those of a genre where they are often secondary.
true.
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 18:43   #48
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
if you think lyrics are at all relevant to the quality of music, you should be reading poetry, not listening to music.

thats a little silly, if you wanted to listen to music you'd only listen to classical etc
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 18:56   #49
acropolis
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
thats a little silly, if you wanted to listen to music you'd only listen to classical etc
that's not a logical conclusion that could be made from my post.

so no one who doesn't understand english listens to music with english lyrics?
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Unread 8 Jun 2006, 19:12   #50
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Re: Proof Tony is a Tory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
that's not a logical conclusion that could be made from my post.
sez u


Quote:
so no one who doesn't understand english listens to music with english lyrics?
well yes but this merely perpetuates the meaningless shit that i hate, instead of a respectable form or art it become a kitch 'artform' where nonsensical lyrics are combined with generic 'tracks' to make something that noone can understand (and thereby probably emulates the level of understanding of those who don't speak english), they make shit like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzfda...Ketchup%20Song

innit.
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