Planetarion Forums

Little Timmy · 9 Apr 2005, 23:25

No major threads moaning about the ship stats .

No major threads moaning about the galaxy set ups and moans about biase or unfair galaxies.

No major threads demanding refunds.

Is it ok yet to say well done PA these two very important aspects seem to be right for a change.

Or have all the whingers left ?

pig · 9 Apr 2005, 23:53

i think the ship stats are good, although gals imo are still a touchy subject, id rather see gals of 10 but the pa team are doing a good thing in finding a way to make sure gals are equal and new players get a chance to play in big gals, so thumbs up here.

Zotnam · 10 Apr 2005, 00:17

Let's complain that no-one complains

Neferti · 10 Apr 2005, 00:20

Well I don't like the stats. I just know it' pointless complaining on the forums.

noah02 · 10 Apr 2005, 00:31

no complaints here

and anyway the complaints will start soon once ppl keep kicking other ppls butts to much.

xontas · 10 Apr 2005, 00:49

i must admit, its scary to not see the complaints

its like waiting for the other shoe to drop

seriously i have to say kloopy kal and pishmishy did a ace job on getting R13 here

DukePaul · 10 Apr 2005, 00:53

A certain induvidual was whining about certain ships the other day, even went to jester to talk about it. Was amusing to watch, atleast.

noah02 · 10 Apr 2005, 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukePaul

A certain induvidual was whining about certain ships the other day, even went to jester to talk about it. Was amusing to watch, atleast.

Did he lose a dragon to a pirate and didnt expect it?

furball · 10 Apr 2005, 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukePaul

A certain induvidual was whining about certain ships the other day, even went to jester to talk about it. Was amusing to watch, atleast.

Who? You know you can tell me

Personally I'm not keen on the galaxies, but the awesome ship stats make up for it. Although I still cry myself to sleep at night that the Corsair is a FI targetting CR

Zero · 10 Apr 2005, 13:22

im still weeping about the only thing that can properly handle a xan fi fleet are TBTs

DrunkenViking · 10 Apr 2005, 13:54

i love it

Nitros · 10 Apr 2005, 14:46

i lost 40 roids cause my harpies didnt shoot the attackers demeters, this round sucks, bring back round 3!!!

Alessio · 10 Apr 2005, 16:21

I hate corsairs, they shouldnt be FI... and this buddypack stuff sux..

noah02 · 10 Apr 2005, 23:41

why harpys ? why not interceptor \o/

Gio2k · 11 Apr 2005, 03:12

[whine]
CR fleets that can be deffed against with fi sucks.
Cath are utterly ineffective against terran de, and against pretty much everything else.
[/whine]

Banned · 11 Apr 2005, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah02

why harpys ? why not interceptor \o/

If I had found a way to fit 'Interceptor' into the mythological naming scheme for Terran I definitely would have.

Cooling · 11 Apr 2005, 13:25

Bring back proper Daggers while you are at it \o/

Jonas · 11 Apr 2005, 16:47

oh the emp resistant dagger. Now that was a ship I regret I didnt get back in the days o_O

I still see a few gals torn apart btw. with 6-9 players in em o_O

_Kila_ · 11 Apr 2005, 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gio2k

[whine]
CR fleets that can be deffed against with fi sucks.
Cath are utterly ineffective against terran de, and against pretty much everything else.
[/whine]

It can't be deffed against... but they will be capped after roids are stolen.

Banned · 11 Apr 2005, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooling

Bring back proper Daggers while you are at it \o/

To be honest, I would really, really like this to happen. That is: I think there needs to be a seperate statistic determining EMP resistance. Perhaps a seperate armor stat. Since shots aren't redistributed on a per gun basis anymore, I don't think having an old school dagger would shake up the balance in the way it did way back when.

Bashar · 11 Apr 2005, 18:35

Most the people who played in the beta know that the current stats are unbalanced. It was proved that they are, but we aren't going to moan about it because jester did a bloody excellent job getting them to the stage they are at. The direction the stats took (with stealing and the way initiative now works) is a good one in my view, as it does make the game more strategic, and makes the races more diverse. The problem is simply with balance, and jester and I discussed it several times, and pretty much, the only conclusion we came to was: The stats aren't balanced, because Zik doesn't fit in with the other races as well as it should, but there is no way we can see to fix this without the combat engine being changed drastically. This was not possible in the time we had, the only other option would have been a complete redo of the stats which took away a lot of the introductions (especially the initiative of stealing), which was not possible in the time, and not ideal either, as jester liked the way they were going, and I did quite like it too (I think most other people in the beta did too). I don't think any more could be done on the stats than was. Hopefully, next round will have some of the ideas brought up in beta (such as a return to the more traditional type of stats where you have EMP resistance, possibly weapon speed and agility too, but still keep the new 'style' with the races being very specialised, and the initiative giving lots of strategic options) to help make a set of what could potentially be the best stats we've had.

As for other causes of moaning, there aren't really any for me. I live with Kloopy at uni, and I saw the huge amount of work he did, and I know that no more could have been done. Also, for the first time in a long time, PA team did REALLY listen to the community, and when the community (mainly beta testers) told them something was a crap idea, they were willing to take it out. They were also quite willing to put ideas in that came from the community. From this point of view, I don't really see a reason to complain. The community was listened to a lot, and a hell of a lot of work was put in. Thus, the community got what it was wanting, and I think that most people would agree that the result is an improved round from last round.

To summarise, I think that, all things considered, the reason why people aren't complaining is because what problems there are were unavoidable, and they could see that everything had been done that could. Also, the fact that there are so few problems by comparison to some previous rounds. Generally, the direction taken with the game has been one that consulted the community in general more than previously, and so the direction taken is one that is very mutually agreeable.

Banned · 11 Apr 2005, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bashar

Most the people who played in the beta know that the current stats are unbalanced. It was proved that they are, but we aren't going to moan about it because jester did a bloody excellent job getting them to the stage they are at.

I'm flattered

Quote:

the only conclusion we came to was: The stats aren't balanced, because Zik doesn't fit in with the other races as well as it should, but there is no way we can see to fix this without the combat engine being changed drastically.

What Bashar means is that he came to that conclusion, and I gave up discussing it.

That said, the combat engine does not have enough depth to handle the current race setup, just like it couldn't handle round 11 and 12.

Quote:

I don't think any more could be done on the stats than was.

If I could go back and change one thing, I'd change Dagger armor/damage to 9/10 and drop cost to keep the current efficiency.

Edit: Actually, on second thought, there's a load of things I'd do differently, but mainly to aim for a different balance rather than to correct any current inbalance.

Quote:

Hopefully, next round will have some of the ideas brought up in beta (such as a return to the more traditional type of stats where you have EMP resistance, possibly weapon speed and agility too, but still keep the new 'style' with the races being very specialised, and the initiative giving lots of strategic options) to help make a set of what could potentially be the best stats we've had.

A return to the old combat engine is, in my opinion, a bad idea.

Quote:

PA team did REALLY listen to the community, and when the community (mainly beta testers) told them something was a crap idea, they were willing to take it out.

Since I wasn't PAteam, I wasn't bound by any NDAs and could speak more openly about the stats. See for example the big/long thread that was posted when the private stats beta opened.

Quote:

They were also quite willing to put ideas in that came from the community. From this point of view, I don't really see a reason to complain. The community was listened to a lot, and a hell of a lot of work was put in. Thus, the community got what it was wanting, and I think that most people would agree that the result is an improved round from last round.

I agree quite strongly with this. PAteam's 'new direction' is a lot better than the old 'we have something very clever going on, in 2 months when we've wasted tons of time on it, you can shoot it down' attitude.

Quote:

To summarise, I think that, all things considered, the reason why people aren't complaining is because what problems there are were unavoidable, and they could see that everything had been done that could. Also, the fact that there are so few problems by comparison to some previous rounds. Generally, the direction taken with the game has been one that consulted the community in general more than previously, and so the direction taken is one that is very mutually agreeable.

I think this holds true as well.

I think the fact that the major bugs of the round so far have either been made public swiftly (self-exile) or gone unnoticed (exile placement bug) helps.

Bashar · 11 Apr 2005, 18:58

jester, you yourself agreed that zik is unbalanced relative to the other races. Also, I am not saying that we should go back to the old combat engine. A lot of the current things would not be possible. To clarify what I meant, the point was to return to a similar approach to the stats. The engine has been over simplified, which restricts the scope of what can be done with the stats. In order to bring more new things in, and balance the races fully, I think that extra stats categories are needed (such as EMP, possibly weap speed and agility - those sortes of things, maybe even a steal resistance, and possibly ability to change the armour of roids/constructions for each race - these sortes of things). This doesn't mean go back to the old combat engine, it just means returning to the old combat engines level of complexity. It adds a lot more scope for stats tweaking, and increasing stats evolution.

flikman · 11 Apr 2005, 19:05

The big galaxies have changed the game... for the better !

Banned · 11 Apr 2005, 19:09

Quote:

Also, I am not saying that we should go back to the old combat engine. A lot of the current things would not be possible. To clarify what I meant, the point was to return to a similar approach to the stats. The engine has been over simplified, which restricts the scope of what can be done with the stats. In order to bring more new things in, and balance the races fully, I think that extra stats categories are needed (such as EMP, possibly weap speed and agility - those sortes of things, maybe even a steal resistance, and possibly ability to change the armour of roids/constructions for each race - these sortes of things). This doesn't mean go back to the old combat engine, it just means returning to the old combat engines level of complexity. It adds a lot more scope for stats tweaking, and increasing stats evolution.

Indeed. I have a mental list of things I'd add and/or change, but I've lost interest for the time being so cba with the effort of posting it anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bashar

jester, you yourself agreed that zik is unbalanced relative to the other races.

Allow me to refresh your memory:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banned

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bashar

This is why no MO's will ever want to send zik stealers on defence, and as a result why I suspect many alliances will try to dissuade their members from going zik.

Unless the person with incoming is Zik...

The problem with Zik isn't that it sucks, it's that it sucks from the normal playing point of view. You have to break a few paradigms to play it effectively.

Quote:

The main problem I see in the stats is ziks. In my view, in their current form, they are not fitting in well with the other races.

They do indeed not fit in well.

Bashar · 11 Apr 2005, 19:55

Not sure why you posted the second bit, I was remembering it from elsewhere anyway, but that will do too.

Banned · 11 Apr 2005, 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bashar

Not sure why you posted the second bit, I was remembering it from elsewhere anyway, but that will do too.

Easier than digging through IRC logs.

Appocomaster · 11 Apr 2005, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by xontas

i must admit, its scary to not see the complaints

its like waiting for the other shoe to drop

seriously i have to say kloopy kal and pishmishy did a ace job on getting R13 here

Including Banned and Bashar as well, I think together they couldn't have done a better job considering the time and the pressure after the long wait between rounds.

And to be fair, there's always arguments about stats, and with zik having the ability to properly steal, it'd have always been impossible to balance correctly (although they're a lot less nerfed than I thought they were... will be interesting to see how it is near the end of the round).

Bashar · 11 Apr 2005, 21:37

Apoccomaster, I didn't do anything. I had a few discussions with jester about the stats, and a few with Kloopy/Kal about a few things, but I certainly didn't contribute anything major. The stats were jester and jester alone.

pig · 11 Apr 2005, 22:19

jester did a great job of the stats and tweaked and retweaked etc etc, although they arent balanced, there is alot of options out there and from whats being seen this round, no once race has a singular advantage, ie xan rnd 11, zik rnd 12, argubably its cath this rnd, but i still disaggree, each race just has to play to its own strengths and the real fun begins.

Banned · 11 Apr 2005, 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by pig

jalthough they arent balanced .... no once race has a singular advantage

I'm confused.

Cooling · 11 Apr 2005, 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banned

To be honest, I would really, really like this to happen. That is: I think there needs to be a seperate statistic determining EMP resistance. Perhaps a seperate armor stat. Since shots aren't redistributed on a per gun basis anymore, I don't think having an old school dagger would shake up the balance in the way it did way back when.

Well we have had special astropods before, but never 'special' ships for each race, at least not at the same time.

Arguably it would be impossible to balance, but with artificial exponentially increasing ship caps it could perhaps work as an 'elite' addition to a players regular fleet (with higher costs etc).

That might go some way to mitigating the effect of making the race with the daggers unfairly advantaged over cath players.

Neferti · 15 Apr 2005, 00:49

Well I'm really sorry I upset someone by saying I didnt like the stats. I wasnt aware that was not a valid opinion

Everything is wonderful! Happy now?

I didnt say the stats were crap, or unnappreciated, or anything. Just that I didnt particularly like them. Terribly bloody sorry to have offended someone.

Banned · 15 Apr 2005, 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neferti

Well I'm really sorry I upset someone by saying I didnt like the stats. I wasnt aware that was not a valid opinion

You didn't upset me

The people who upset me are the ones that don't like them and insist on lecturing me about them.

Neferti · 15 Apr 2005, 05:20

Sorry. I was referring to whoever negrepped me without any reason (dontcha just hate that?). I know you did the best that was possible with the stats given that i) zik stealing is back and ii) the limitations of the current system.

Erinyes · 15 Apr 2005, 11:50

The stats are great, especially being Zik. It seemed a little pointless in previous rounds to just subvert ships, now it rocks that you can steal them and use them for other attacks.

Personally I prefered galaxies of 10 players coz it made it easier to attack without the aid of your alliance. However, it is cool having bigger galaxies as defence is a lot better and you dont get creamed.

Goatsemaster · 15 Apr 2005, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neferti

(dontcha just hate that?).

Nope. I respect that some people disagree with me and aren't intelligent enough to express it with more than two clicks of the mouse.

Neferti · 15 Apr 2005, 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erinyes

The stats are great, especially being Zik. It seemed a little pointless in previous rounds to just subvert ships, now it rocks that you can steal them and use them for other attacks.

Personally I prefered galaxies of 10 players coz it made it easier to attack without the aid of your alliance. However, it is cool having bigger galaxies as defence is a lot better and you dont get creamed.

Yes I suppose the bigger galaxies are essential in a round where defense is very difficult.