Planetarion Forums

meglamaniac · 22 May 2004, 21:22

Don't bother watching this film, unless you
a) Like watching formulaic battle scenes over and over and over and over again for 3 hours
b) Need a nap

Where to start, where to start...
Firstly, the 'plot' for the film represents about 2 pages-worth out of the greek legends. This has been expanded to fill 3 hours of film, so clearly things are going to be repetative.
You're left confused about who you were supposed to be supporting. At the start it looks like the Greeks. Then the Greeks turn out to be sneaky greedy bastards and you want to support Troy. But on the other hand, Achilles is fighting for the Greeks (sort-of) and the film tries to make him out to be all moral and a nice-guy (which is bullshit really), but swings you back to the Greeks. But then the Trojans have Hector, which is who we all ended up supporting when we went to see it, and at the end of the day what the Greeks do to Troy is not nice.
There are plenty of other niggles: the way an entire battle involving 80,000 men stops in seconds when one man yells "halt"; the way soldiers gather round Hector when he thinks he's fighting Achilles despite the fact there's a battle going on all around them and any half-bright soldier would've taken the advantage and shoved a sword in their backs; the way the plot is just a flimsy pretext for the next CGI battle...

Ah well.
This is the point where everyone now disagrees with me.

Proteus · 22 May 2004, 21:26

Troy is comedy genius.

(I haven't seen it, but any film about the Trojan War where Menelaus gets killed and Paris ends up with Helen has got to be spectacularly amusing.)

meglamaniac · 22 May 2004, 21:30

Ah yes, I forgot to mention the wild innacuracies

Blastoderm · 22 May 2004, 21:42

A let-down film.

MrL_JaKiri · 22 May 2004, 22:15

It also made the seige feel like 3 weeks, rather than well over a decade.

wu_trax · 22 May 2004, 22:18

i liked it.
what did you expect? its a hollywood movie
(and if you consider how crap all the rest of the movies are this year i really dont know how anyone can not like it.)

meglamaniac · 22 May 2004, 22:21

So we should drop our standards just cos everything else is worse?
Bugger that - just don't go.

Tactitus · 22 May 2004, 22:41

Like LOtR, no movie's going to do The Illiad justice. Given that, I thought the movie was fair. In spite of the needless tampering with the original story, they did capture Homer's major themes (the destructiveness of vengence and the waste of war).

The battles scenes were OK, if overdone. The absence of slings was a disappointment. The major combat error was seeing soldiers fighting on horseback (saddles weren't yet invented and without a saddle a rider has virtually no leverage for striking). The two armies were over-armored as well (typically, only the wealthy could afford armor and most soldiers fought with little or none).

Finally, the women's roles were particularly weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

It also made the seige feel like 3 weeks, rather than well over a decade.

Well, even Homer skipped over most of it.

MrL_JaKiri · 22 May 2004, 22:48

The script was dire.
They removed part of the justification for the story by removing the gods.

and so on.

djbass · 23 May 2004, 02:47

I'm not up to date with my Greek mythology so I wasn't hole spotting like most of you, and I enjoyed the movie for what it was.

bonus points for Achilles shoving a sword into that big guy's neck at the beginning

nickhall · 23 May 2004, 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by meglamaniac

This is the point where everyone now disagrees with me.

Nope i agree with every word of what you said

Oh but you missed the fact the acting was awfull as well even with that cast.

Leshy · 23 May 2004, 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactitus

they did capture Homer's major themes (the destructiveness of vengence and the waste of war).

The spite of Achilles is the central theme of the Iliad.

MrL_JaKiri · 23 May 2004, 13:49

You don't have to have a 10 year film to have the film taking place over 10 years.

Also, 'Troy' is a much more mass market film title than the Iliad, so even if it was faithful I'd expect it to have a different title.

JonnyBGood · 23 May 2004, 13:58

Diomedes wasn't even in the film

And the plot was too long, despite the fact they cut out bits, and the examination of most characters was pretty superficial. Agamemnon died in battle against Hector

and Achilles lived to fight inside Troy!

meglamaniac · 23 May 2004, 13:58

Orlando. Heh. Don't get me started on him.
Apart from his actual acting, the guy REALLY DOES only have one voice - a posh one.
I mean look at Pirates of the Carribean; he was quite possibly the world's most well spoken blacksmith's apprentice ever! Put a bit of effort in lad...

MrL_JaKiri · 23 May 2004, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

No but if they had done that then instead of people coming on here asking why the film didn't take place over ten years people would have come and asked a whole load of worse questions like 'Where have they got ten years worth of food from?', 'Exactly who is guarding Greece right now?' and stuff like that.

Those kind of questions are like 'Hey, why is there magic in the lord of the rings?'

J-Kama-Ka-C · 23 May 2004, 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

What film did you watch?

I think he means the brother, Milo someone..?

J-Kama-Ka-C · 23 May 2004, 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

Menalaus is something like it. Milo is a character from catch 22.

Incidentally the bit that got the biggest laugh in the cinema was Agamenmon's (goddamn stupid hard names to spell

) reaction to his brothers death. He just went 'dieeeeeeaarrrgghhhh' in some crazy growl.

Heh, how was he supposed to die, because I don't think Hector was supposed to be in that scene? Back to the point about the gods, where they rather than bigger brother saves Paris?

MrL_JaKiri · 23 May 2004, 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

Nah because Magic dont exist in the Real World (afaik) but food and invading armies do.

That's not only an invalid counterargument, it's also invalid full stop.

Magic doesn't exist, but then armies that survive without food also don't exist, so in that sense their similar.

The reason I compared them, however, was that it's something to argue about the book, not the film. You can't argue about the subtleties of a film if they're lifted straight from the book, because the filmmaker didn't create the situation, so criticising the film for it is utterly irrelevent.

JonnyBGood · 23 May 2004, 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

What film did you watch?

Ajax rather. I get confused by all the A's when I'm hungover

MrL_JaKiri · 23 May 2004, 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

MrL: You've gone over my head. Np I just dont get that last post.

To simplify:

'Hey, why does this film have gods doing stuff and invincible people and so forth?'
'Because The Iliad does.'

Proteus · 23 May 2004, 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Diomedes wasn't even in the film

But he's my favourite character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

'Where have they got ten years worth of food from?'

Presumably they brought enough with them to last quite a while, and when that ran out they pillaged the cities around Troy for supplies (there are loads of references in the Iliad to attacks on neighbouring cities).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

'Exactly who is guarding Greece right now?'

No one. Every military power in the Mediterranean was either attacking Troy or helping it. (And who would be stupid enough to attack a region capable of raising 100,000 troops, anyway?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

J-Kama-Ka-C: Um if I recall correctly Paris has a duel with him but I dont even remember if he actually died or not. Menelaus is a preety minor character in 'The Illiad'.

Menelaus is one of the few heroes to survive the Trojan War cycle. He chats with Telemachus in the Odyssey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

Zeus supported Troy so most of the other gods just copied him but they hardly ever make direct contact with people. Gods go more in for disgusing themselves as people and tricking them into doing stuff that, usually results in their death.

That's so wrong I don't know where to start...

Zeus supported no one (the war would never have lasted ten years if Zeus had been on one side or the other). The other gods divided themselves into opposing camps and assisted their chosen side. They certainly did make direct contact with people, and it is often more the actions of the gods that directs the action than the strength of the heroes. (Patroclus, for instance, would never have been killed if Apollo hadn't knocked his armour off and left him dazed and defenceless.)

Proteus · 23 May 2004, 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

Clearly Proteus has missunderstood most of what I posted but I cant be bother to explain it all. However I suggest you re-read The Illiad if you dont think Zeus supported the Trojans. Achillies was so pissed with Agammemon that he actually wanted the Greeks to lose. As someone said earlier, The Illiad is all about the spite of Achillies. Anyway Achillies asked his mother, the goddess Thetis or something to help make the Greeks lose. She in turn asked Zeus and thats why for much of the battle its The Trojans and Hector who own. Seriously I had to write a 5k word essay on it and I'm positive Zeus supports The Trojans for most of The Illiad.

Zeus supports the Trojans for about 3 days in the middle of a 10 year war.

JonnyBGood · 23 May 2004, 15:59

Zeus supports the Trojans in the Iliad because of Thetis' plea to him concerning Achilles. If he'd supported the Trojans for ten years the Greeks wouldn't have made it onto their ships heh.

PS Hi proteus!

Proteus · 23 May 2004, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

PS Hi proteus!

Hi, Jonny! I'm having great fun here, being told I don't know the Iliad well enough.

Leshy · 23 May 2004, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Mage

Achillies was so pissed with Agammemon that he actually wanted the Greeks to lose.

He wanted the Greeks to be driven so far back, they had to come crying to him for help. He didn't want them to lose outright.

As for Zeus - he doesn't choose the side of the Trojans, he merely grants Thetys her request to have the Trojans push back the Greeks, in order to please Achilles. I believe in the battle between Hektor and Achilles, he lets fate decide the outcome through the use of a pair of scales - which is one of the most direct and vocal examples of Zeus remaining impartial throughout the war, at most acting out that which is to be according to fate.

Of course, the fact that he was smart enough not to choose between Athena, Hera and Aphrodite indicates that he would be equally smart enough not to choose a side in the Trojan war.

pablissimo · 23 May 2004, 16:15

Does Jesus die in this one too? When will that guy get a break?

DukePaul · 23 May 2004, 16:17

http://www.livejournal.com/users/cleolinda/99710.html

found this, midly amusing.

As for the movie, I'm glad other people out there agree with me that Orlando Bloom really sucks. He just cant get anything right, it seems.

JonnyBGood · 23 May 2004, 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quad

http://www.livejournal.com/users/cleolinda/99710.html

Better than the movie!

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR!

HECTOR: Oh, shit.

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR!

HECTOR: Goodbye, Dad. I tried to be the best son you could have.

PRIAM: *tear*

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR!

HECTOR: Goodbye, Andromache. I tried to be the best husband I could be.

ANDROMACHE: *tear*

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR!

HECTOR: Goodbye, baby son. I tried to be the best father I could be.

BABY: WAAAAAA!

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR!

HECTOR: Goodbye, Paris. Make me proud.

PARIS: Oh, way to twist the knife, man.

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR!

SMARTASS IN THE AUDIENCE: STELLAAAAAAA!

ACHILLES: Shut your mouth or I CUT YOU.

SMARTASS IN THE AUDIENCE: *whimpers*

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR!

HECTOR: *puts on his armor slowly and dramatically*

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR!

HECTOR: *reads the paper, gets a shoeshine*

ACHILLES: HECTORRRRRRRR!

HECTOR: I’m here, I’m here! Promise me that the loser gets a proper burial.

ACHILLES: **** you.

HECTOR: We let Patroclus have a proper burial!

ACHILLES: ****. YOU.

DukePaul · 23 May 2004, 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Better than the movie!

That quote says all we need to know about the movie, really

JonnyBGood · 23 May 2004, 16:33

ODYSSEUS: So, please remember all the Greek heroes, because that’s what we died for. Not for greed or lust or hubris, but so that people would remember… our greed, and our lust, and our hubris. And, in conclusion: Cousins. They were totally cousins.

DukePaul · 23 May 2004, 16:35

Totally cousins. Yeah. Very much cousins. Very cousnish to sleep naked together, neh?

http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=sl...hilles%20lover

Proteus · 23 May 2004, 16:35

I still don't get why everyone thinks Achilles and Patroclus were lovers.

JonnyBGood · 23 May 2004, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proteus

I still don't get why everyone thinks Achilles and Patroclus were lovers.

Probably something to do with the fact Achilles spent most of his time naked in his tent and we didn't see that much of Patroclus outside fighting am i rite?

DukePaul · 23 May 2004, 16:38

Hey, it's like a soap opera. In reality, no one gives a shit anyway, but it's fun to ponder about. And as for why, supposedly that last link I posted will link you to some sites that will tell you why this seems possbile.

BTW, I also heard Robin Hood was gay. Band of merry men indeed...

Leshy · 23 May 2004, 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proteus

I still don't get why everyone thinks Achilles and Patroclus were lovers.

Because ancient greeks had this habit of keeping young boys around themselves to hump between the cheeks?

Proteus · 23 May 2004, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leshy

Because ancient greeks had this habit of keeping young boys around themselves to hump between the cheeks?

Patroclus was hardly a "young boy".

DukePaul · 23 May 2004, 16:42

But he was Achilles' cousin. Totally.

Proteus · 23 May 2004, 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quad

But he was Achilles' cousin. Totally.

I haven't the foggiest where they pulled the whole "cousin" idea from. He was just his best friend.

JonnyBGood · 23 May 2004, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proteus

I haven't the foggiest where they pulled the whole "cousin" idea from. He was just his best friend.........

...........who inserted his cock in Achilles' ass every night.

DukePaul · 23 May 2004, 16:46

Ages ago since I read the Iliad and the rest, when I was like 12 or so, and after seeing the movie I've decided to read it again. Hmm. Wonder if I have it somewhere here? Anyway, my knowledge of the whole Achilles/cousin-whose-name-I-have-forgotten-thing is about as much as I read the last 5 minutes. So can't really say they got it from, but movies are movies, eh?