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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:07   #1
Minty
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Is Wales a Country?

I've just had a very interesting debate in my office.

Some are arguing Wales is a country (me included) and others are stating United Kingdom is the country.

So Wales have:
Their own language
Their own Flag
Their own National football team
A defined set of land

But they're not a country?

How is this so?

Apparently it depends on people's opinion

I quote from here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Geography Site.co.uk
However, the answer to the question varies according to whom you ask. Most people say there are 192 countries, but others point out that there could be more like 260 of them.

So why isn't there a straight forward answer?

The problem arises because there isn't a universally agreed definition of 'country' and because, for political reasons, some countries find it convenient to recognize or not recognize other countries.

For example, Taiwan claims to be a country, but China states that Taiwan is just another part of China. The consequence is that the USA, that doesn't want to upset China, doesn't recognize Taiwan as a country. Conversely, from the end of the Second World War, the Soviet Union annexed the countries of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania but the USA continued to regard them as independent countries that were 'occupied' because it didn't really get on with the USSR.

So what is it?
A country or not?
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:09   #2
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

wales is a country
under occupation but still a country
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:13   #3
Minty
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Ok so it is an independant country.

That is a given.

Like Australia is a seperate goverment but the Queen is their Head of State etc
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:15   #4
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

A region of England.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:19   #5
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

there aer different words for the UK and its constituent states, firstly, you have england, which, surprisingly enough is just england, then, you have britain, which (iirc) is england, wales and scotland, then you have the united kingdom, which (again, iirc) is britain plus northern island and various islands.


wales scotland and england are all countries in their own right, NI isnt, and is rather a dependancy (not sure that that's the right word but ho hum) of britain
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:27   #6
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Wales is a principality.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:28   #7
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

When in doubt why don't you just wiki (although i knew it was a Principality before i did so).
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:37   #8
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

wales is just a big county really, I mean cornwall has their own language (and more of a claim to being its own country than most of the UK) but they're still viewed as a county.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:41   #9
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Who cares, Wales is shit anyway.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:42   #10
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

The real question is: "What is a country". Answer that and we'll be sorted.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:47   #11
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
The real question is: "What is a country". Answer that and we'll be sorted.
That's not a question.

I mean look at it.

There isn't even a question mark!
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:51   #12
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
wales is just a big county really, I mean cornwall has their own language (and more of a claim to being its own country than most of the UK) but they're still viewed as a county.
That is all well and good but they don't have a flag, a football team* etc



*that can qualify for the WC/Euro
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 17:53   #13
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
The real question is: "What is a country". Answer that and we'll be sorted.
Well according to UK Goverment here say...

The United Kingdom is made up of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Its full name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Great Britain, however, comprises only England, Scotland and Wales. Great Britain is the largest island of the British Isles. Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic form the second largest island.

The UK is just under 1,000 km long from the south coast of England to the extreme north of Scotland, and is 500 km across at its widest point. It shares a single land border with the Irish Republic. Despite its relatively small size the UK boosts incredibly varied and often very beautiful scenery.

The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are not part of the United Kingdom. They are largely self-governing with their own legislative assemblies and systems of law. But the British Government is responsible for their defence and international relations.

On this site the term 'Britain' is used informally to mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Read on to find out more about how England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are administered.


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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 18:15   #14
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
That is all well and good but they don't have a flag, a football team* etc
That's because they don't have a seperate Football Association. If they had one, they could join FIFA and compete in international competition.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 18:30   #15
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

For my money it is, simply because it has such accepted and well defined boundaries and a people that would call themselves "welsh" first rather than british.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 18:39   #16
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
That is all well and good but they don't have a flag, a football team* etc



*that can qualify for the WC/Euro
flag, and world cup qualification is hardly a defining feature of weather or not a country is a country.

My point is this: if wales is a country, so is cornwall, and a number of other places in england, it's hardly fair to seperate one inward looking comunity and say "this is a country" and look at another and say "this is a county", when they can both offer the same justifying arguments as to why they are countries.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 18:58   #17
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

I think the idea of countries is fundamentally meaningless so no it isn't, but then again neither is anything else.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 19:02   #18
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
That is all well and good but they don't have a flag, a football team* etc
A flag and a football team don't define a country, I'd say it is more about having an own government, legislation, international representation, etc.

I believe outside of the UK most people view Wales as part of Britain/England, not as an own country.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 19:05   #19
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

If the United Kingdom is a country then Wales can't be a country too. It just does not make sense!
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:08   #20
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Wales is a principality.
Is exactly what I was going to post.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:25   #21
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Wales is a principality.
(i think you should add) ... created by the English post conquest.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:44   #22
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
If the United Kingdom is a country then Wales can't be a country too. It just does not make sense!
They're both countries because the word has more than one meaning. The United Kingdom is a country in the sense of "a sovereign state", and Wales is a country in the sense of "a nation".
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He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:57   #23
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
(i think you should add) ... created by the English post conquest.
PS. The English are actually Danish.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 20:59   #24
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
PS. The English are actually Danish.
And we're all originally africans. Or maybe even amoebae from a comet!
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:03   #25
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Wales is a state of mind.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:09   #26
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Wales is a state of mind.
despair
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:15   #27
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Isnt Wales a nation?
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:38   #28
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

A country, in the sense of being a nation, can pursue an independent foreign policy. Wales does not qualify.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:42   #29
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
A country, in the sense of being a nation, can pursue an independent foreign policy. Wales does not qualify.
That's a state.
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:43   #30
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
A country, in the sense of being a nation, can pursue an independent foreign policy. Wales does not qualify.

neither does england under blair amirite?



edit:quote added for clarity
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 21:52   #31
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
PS. The English are actually Danish.
what a curiously inaccurate thing to say ...
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Unread 24 Jul 2006, 22:12   #32
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
PS. The English are actually Danish.
Germanic, if you're talking about the anglosaxons.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 01:09   #33
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
I belive he's thinking about Norwegians, referring to the Normans.

He is of course mistaken.
The Normans were from Brittany
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 01:26   #34
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

As long as Norway and Japan keep bribing the likes of Essention Island and Lard is back on our shelves, I don't care if my lamb tastes of Brouwerij Breda.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 01:44   #35
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maladoni
As long as Norway and Japan keep bribing the likes of Essention Island and Lard is back on our shelves, I don't care if my lamb tastes of Brouwerij Breda.
I dont understand a thing
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 02:24   #36
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
I dont understand a thing
don't worry, no-one ever really knows what he's saying
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 08:17   #37
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Wales is the part of England that was too hilly so we let them have it

Nah, in all seriousness i believe it is its own country. They have there own infrastructure, capital and hills. Most Welsh people seem very very nationalistic though in my experience...
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 10:25   #38
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

its an annex of England
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 10:41   #39
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

In 50 million years when the continents look different where will we all claim to be "from"?
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 10:47   #40
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

That's if the Earth is still here and we didn't blow it up, or totally kill the environment.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 10:51   #41
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
That's if the Earth is still here and we didn't blow it up, or totally kill the environment.
The content of the question still stands regardless.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 10:58   #42
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
In 50 million years when the continents look different where will we all claim to be "from"?
Wherever the most meaningful division can be placed, culturally or socially. In the extremely unlikely event that humanity exists in any similar form I still doubt the division would be geographic then anyway.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:03   #43
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Say what now?
They settled in Normandy in the early 10th century, I don't know if 160 years of nationalisation is enough to be counted as "from" a place.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:04   #44
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Wherever the most meaningful division can be placed, culturally or socially. In the extremely unlikely event that humanity exists in any similar form I still doubt the division would be geographic then anyway.
Unless we're fighting some form of inter-galactic war against invaders from the Andromeda galaxy.

Or maybe we'll all just be individuals by that stage. After all 50 million years might well be a long enough time for human beings to consider each other as people.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:06   #45
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Unless we're fighting some form of inter-galactic war against invaders from the Andromeda galaxy.
Maybe by then it will be us humans doing the anal probing of the alien species.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:10   #46
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Or maybe we'll all just be individuals by that stage.
I doubt while we'll ever "just" be individuals. Subcategories will always exist and I don't see that as particular problematic. Perhaps the divisions will be more light hearted and/or based more on rational criteria but either way.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:13   #47
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I doubt while we'll ever "just" be individuals. Subcategories will always exist and I don't see that as particular problematic.
If technology has advanced to the stage where being in a collective grants you no more abilities than being alone (for which the "power" of the average individual must be enormous, as must the quality of the AIs) then it's possible only deliberate rebellious luddites would form social groupings.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:15   #48
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If technology has advanced to the stage where being in a collective grants you no more abilities than being alone (for which the "power" of the average individual must be enormous, as must the quality of the AIs) then it's possible only deliberate rebellious luddites would form social groupings.
You don't necessarily have to be in a social grouping to be a category of individual. 'Left handed people' are a category of people yet they obviously don't live in any sort of distinct social grouping. Perhaps slightly less extremely you have people who are classical music fans who don't want autonomy from rock fans (or whatever).
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:16   #49
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I doubt while we'll ever "just" be individuals. Subcategories will always exist and I don't see that as particular problematic. Perhaps the divisions will be more light hearted and/or based more on rational criteria but either way.
Obviously I have no problem with people categorising things a certain way in their minds. More how this so often manifests itself as discrimination and xenophobia.
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Unread 25 Jul 2006, 11:23   #50
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Re: Is Wales a Country?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If technology has advanced to the stage where being in a collective grants you no more abilities than being alone (for which the "power" of the average individual must be enormous, as must the quality of the AIs) then it's possible only deliberate rebellious luddites would form social groupings.
I don't think technology in and of itself would have any influence on social behaviour any more so than currently. Social change will come from better knowledge and understanding of the current societies, the people living in them, and the world around us. Technology is a result of our increased understanding of science, however it can be a useful tool in helping us understand other societies, and perhaps gain more insight, increasing your own understanding.
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