Planetarion Forums - England / Scotland

Deffeh · 1 Jul 2006, 01:24

He doesnt hate them, he just considers himself scottish and not british. He didnt ask for your friends to support them, thats their own mistake.

Note he wears a saltire wristband, not a union jack.

Yahwe · 1 Jul 2006, 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deffeh

He doesnt hate them, he just considers himself scottish and not british. He didnt ask for your friends to support them, thats their own mistake.

Note he wears a saltire wristband, not a union jack.

what he wants is irrelevant and no wristband will prove him right.

he is british.

Deffeh · 1 Jul 2006, 02:37

no, he's scottish, its a recognised nation. and when he holds a scottish passport, i cant wait to see your face

Nodrog · 1 Jul 2006, 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReligFree

Havent read anything else but the topic and the first post but what has recently annoyed me is Andy Murray (the dipshit scottish guy who plays tennis quite well) who claimed he had bought a paraguay shirt when we played them in the qualifiers. What really gets me is friends of mine were on centre court yesterday and were cheering him along. He has thousands of people who support him from England at wimbledon and he hates English people. Henman hill is going to become Murray Mountain or whatever. Just really annoys me how English people support him and he actually hates english people... tosser

Its pretty funny actually and it helps show how absurd it is to support people just because they happened to be born on a bit of land that is somewhat near you, rather than because of any of their values/achievements.

Yahwe · 1 Jul 2006, 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deffeh

no, he's scottish, its a recognised nation.

I'd like to know how you define that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deffeh

and when he holds a scottish passport, i cant wait to see your face

If Scotland secedes from the union it'll need more than the look on my face to cheer it up.

Ephor · 1 Jul 2006, 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by furball

As for driving people out of Scotland, I've read a good handful reports of the former without ever having heard of Scottish people being forced by English people back to Scotland. I have Scottish neighbours who live opposite me, they do just fine.

Scots that have been driven out of England probably wouldn't rush to relate their experience with an Englishman (or a Welshman, I don't mean to cause offence when I say that people north of Hadrian's Wall/west of the mainland generally view these two nations as one). I'm not saying that this necessarily means that Scots have been driven out of England, but think about what version of the truth you receive and from whom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by furball

I don't see the sectarianism at your football matches stopping any time soon. Paisley made a thread a while ago about how even your primary school could define who you were - whether you went to a Catholic or Protestant one, or which football team you support, and so on. It's a dividing factor which surely (shirley) you cannot deny.

I don't mean to trivialise the struggle of the common Englishman against oppression from Johnny Foreigner and his army of immigrants, but his nationalism is nothing like that of an Irish republican or even those unionists. Yes, I would expect the sectarianism at Old Firm matches to endure for some time yet but really that society has, in recent times, had to come to terms with a far greater division than that which exists or has existed in England.

Ephor · 1 Jul 2006, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by milo

yeah but the point i originally made was london wasn't 'just' a capital city but a global one. I wouldn't disagree that there is a bonus in being the capital, id say that that 'bonus' can't account for the level of input london provides.

Using language such as "pulling their/our/your/his/her/its weight" suggests that because London is "pulling its weight" and the rest of the nation isn't "pulling its weight" then Londoners must be working harder/better/more efficiently than the rest of the nation. This is dishonest - the bonus London passes on to our economy is something of the history and status of London itself, which cannot be reduced to accountancy, not because of some cockney intelligence or work ethic.

Dante Hicks · 1 Jul 2006, 16:05

Trying to divide up a national economy in those sort of terms is silly anyway. You might as well take the top 5 earners in the country and say that no-one is pulling their weight compared to these Gods.

For London to exist in it's current state you need infrastructure and services which spread out across the UK. If nothing else, could London exist without the commuter belt?

Dante Hicks · 1 Jul 2006, 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Its pretty funny actually and it helps show how absurd it is to support people just because they happened to be born on a bit of land that is somewhat near you, rather than because of any of their values/achievements.

I can't really think of many good (realistic) reasons for supporting a player or football team. Supporting someone for "their achievements" seems a bit strange - isn't that just supporting the team/individual who wins? Unless their achievement was being born without legs and then building their own set out of lego or something.

"Values" could work, but I don't see how it'd translate into most situaitons. I could see someone supporting a football team which promoted passing football over the long ball, but that could change over time. Some teams might have a particular affiliation with a cause (e.g. anti-fascism) but I suspect they're the minority.

Obviously personality type could play a part - I think that's why some people like Ronnie O'Sullivan for instance. But most sportsman tend to be quite dull or at least don't expose their personality enough for people to have sound judgements on them.

milo · 1 Jul 2006, 19:19

mohammad ali would be my 'archtype' sportsman to support but it all happened before i was born

Dante Hicks · 1 Jul 2006, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by milo

mohammad ali would be my 'archtype' sportsman to support but it all happened before i was born

I think I preferred him when he was saying things like "no Vietcong ever called me ******" rather than selling the trademark on his name to franchise companies.

milo · 1 Jul 2006, 19:37

it would have been perfect* if he died in the ring

*icon/legend wise

Dace · 1 Jul 2006, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by milo

it would have been perfect* if he died in the ring

*icon/legend wise

The boxer who was so good he got killed in a match.

Definate legend status.

Definately.

milo · 1 Jul 2006, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dace

The boxer who was so good he got killed in a match.

Definate legend status.

Definately.

in his last fight, knocked out and dies of a brain haemorage hes living a death because of that anyway!

Paisley · 1 Jul 2006, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

I think I preferred him when he was saying things like "no Vietcong ever called me ******" rather than selling the trademark on his name to franchise companies.

"I am so proud of it I told the US government to get to fk."
Wouldnt work as a gingle tho

Or the Lean mean fat Wayne Rooney grilling machine with free advertising from the Sun, Mirror, daily star and a few others

Pilgrim · 1 Jul 2006, 23:22

Quote:

Recently there has been a few well publicised attacks on english people in scotland - including this one on a 7 year old kid.

Sums up the scottish mentality

pig · 1 Jul 2006, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paisley

Rather than drink and get on with other fans from other nations, the English fans would rather go and pick fights.

How clever is that, and You are trying to brand most of Scotland stupid?

Talk about the pope calling the priest a "Tim"

You keep saying the same thing over and over again.

You want to talk about football violence internationally Now? Then lets talk about Turkey, Poland, Russia, Switzerland, Germany, Spain, Italy and I can go on.

Dont you make out the scots are all kosher.

They are just as bad as the english, its just the scots dont make it to many tournaments and when they do are outnumbered by the english 3/1 to probably dont get much attention thrown to them apart from the "OMFG look how funny the scottish fans are, they are wearing kilts"

I think its naive of you to say that english fans look for trouble. There is a small group of fans like there is in every country who do look for a fight. We arent in the 1980s anymore, we dont have a great hooligan problem so stop trying to make out we do.

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On this whole england/scotland thing ive never had any problems with the scots. In fact I dont know anyone who does to be honest. You see if we get to the root of the problem its probably insecurities on the side of the scots. They want to make out they hate england, when quite frankly this whole argument (going from my experience) doesnt really cross an englishmans radar.

Coming from Birmingham the last thing anyone cares about is where you are from. Its where your going.

I think certain scots (indeed they are on this board) provoke and taunt the english. Lauding about acting as though they are better than the english etc etc. When in reality they must learn the english dont really care all too much and all they are doing is making themselves look stupid.

Deffeh · 2 Jul 2006, 00:30

Like ive said a million times, you dont feel resentful, and you dont feel the need to be bitter about scotland/britain, because Britain is your domain, and your empire, as englishmen, and its completely different as a scotsman - as we quite simply dont feel british, and are overrun by englishmen like yahwe trying to spoon us the "we're all british" crap. Its just a way of exerting english cultural dominance.

And dont kid yourself, look at past world cups - the scots make friends, the english make bonfires. Its nothing more than a fluke - we're not better than you genetically, its just the way the english choose to represent themselves abroad - in your face and abrasive, and arrogant. Scotland, when we get to a tournament, go, with the obvious knowledge we're going to get trolleyed by El Salvador or the Vatican City, and our attitude is subsequently much better. We dont go crying when we lose, because we're used to losing and actually ACCEPT our place in world football, unlike the english

Are you just disregarding all the arrests in germany, because german fans might have more, because theres a lot of englishmen there, because its not quite as bad as before? (because so many of your lot cant even be trusted to travel)

Yahwe · 2 Jul 2006, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Like ive said a million times, you dont feel resentful, and you dont feel the need to be bitter about scotland/britain, because Britain is your domain, and your empire, as englishmen, and its completely different as a scotsman - as we quite simply dont feel british, and are overrun by englishmen like yahwe trying to spoon us the "we're all british" crap. Its just a way of exerting english cultural dominance.

Once again I politely ask you to not pervert historical truth merely because you want scottish independance.

Deffeh · 2 Jul 2006, 00:39

Im not talking about history, im talking about culture.

Pilgrim · 2 Jul 2006, 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReligFree

Havent read anything else but the topic and the first post but what has recently annoyed me is Andy Murray (the dipshit scottish guy who plays tennis quite well) who claimed he had bought a paraguay shirt when we played them in the qualifiers. What really gets me is friends of mine were on centre court yesterday and were cheering him along. He has thousands of people who support him from England at wimbledon and he hates English people. Henman hill is going to become Murray Mountain or whatever. Just really annoys me how English people support him and he actually hates english people... tosser

Scotland are still resentful that no one knows where scotland is.

Ask an american and theyll tell you its in england!
enough said

JonnyBGood · 2 Jul 2006, 00:44

lol owned.

Oh double entrendre

Paisley · 2 Jul 2006, 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by pig

You keep saying the same thing over and over again.

You want to talk about football violence internationally Now? Then lets talk about Turkey, Poland, Russia, Switzerland, Germany, Spain, Italy and I can go on.

Dont you make out the scots are all kosher.

They are just as bad as the english, its just the scots dont make it to many tournaments and when they do are outnumbered by the english 3/1 to probably dont get much attention thrown to them apart from the "OMFG look how funny the scottish fans are, they are wearing kilts"

I think its naive of you to say that english fans look for trouble. There is a small group of fans like there is in every country who do look for a fight. We arent in the 1980s anymore, we dont have a great hooligan problem so stop trying to make out we do.

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On this whole england/scotland thing ive never had any problems with the scots. In fact I dont know anyone who does to be honest. You see if we get to the root of the problem its probably insecurities on the side of the scots. They want to make out they hate england, when quite frankly this whole argument (going from my experience) doesnt really cross an englishmans radar.

Coming from Birmingham the last thing anyone cares about is where you are from. Its where your going.

I think certain scots (indeed they are on this board) provoke and taunt the english. Lauding about acting as though they are better than the english etc etc. When in reality they must learn the english dont really care all too much and all they are doing is making themselves look stupid.

When scotland goes to town it goes to town.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/gra...p/wembscot.jpg

My mate's Dad still has a piece of wembley turf from that day in 1977.

But dont kid yourself on that The Tartan army is in the same group as the England fans... We get pissed WITH the opposition not pissed AT the opposition.

pig · 2 Jul 2006, 00:51

Quote:

And dont kid yourself, look at past world cups - the scots make friends, the english make bonfires.

Im not kidding myself, but as I said we arent in the 80s anymore. Today. Yesterday. Now I am talking about. English fans set the standard imo, the amount that were there etc.

Quote:

Its nothing more than a fluke - we're not better than you genetically, its just the way the english choose to represent themselves abroad - in your face and abrasive, and arrogant. Scotland, when we get to a tournament, go, with the obvious knowledge we're going to get trolleyed by El Salvador or the Vatican City, and our attitude is subsequently much better. We dont go crying when we lose, because we're used to losing and actually ACCEPT our place in world football, unlike the english

Our place in world football is at the top. We are one of 7 teams who have won the world cup. We have made it to the quarter finals in the last two world cup, we accept we are not the best, but belief goes along way. I admit we are overhyped but the reason is we have arguably some of the best players in the world and one of the best leagues in the world.

We look at scotland and now I find it hard to name good scottish players (although I can) Scotlands game is hardly great either with the big two wanting to join the english league which kinda goes against your whole english/scottish bollax.

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Are you just disregarding all the arrests in germany, because german fans might have more, because theres a lot of englishmen there, because its not quite as bad as before? (because so many of your lot cant even be trusted to travel)

Im not disregarding the arrests but im sure you see more arrests at a second city derby than you have at matches at this world cup. Quite frankly arrests happen. People get pissed and have a fight. Its not just the english.

In all honesty from what ive heard the english have embraced the tournament atmosphere and carnival stuff and are pretty much model fans. I know who I would rather have visiting my city, it would be the english over the polish any day.

Yahwe · 2 Jul 2006, 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Im not talking about history, im talking about culture.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

It seems to me that you are saying the equivalent of "I think of the Roman Empire as basically a way of asserting Brazilian cultural dominance"

I can't second guess your (drug addled) mind.

What I can do is asses facts and logical conclusions.

If you are going to insist that you 'feel' that the British Empire was English then I am going to have to (out of a sense of duty) carry on correcting you by saying "well it wasn't".

Much like if you say that you feel that watermellons sprout legs and dance the cha cha when you put them in a fridge I would feel duty bound to say "no they don't"

pig · 2 Jul 2006, 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paisley

But dont kid yourself on that The Tartan army is in the same group as the England fans... We get pissed WITH the opposition not pissed AT the opposition.

Im sorry kid but im not talking about the 70s/80s etc. The english as far as I know are integrating well with other fans. But theres so many of us that really we rarely need too or get the oppurtunity too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paisley

My mate's Dad still has a piece of wembley turf from that day in 1977.

How sad.

Pilgrim · 2 Jul 2006, 00:57

Quote:

Are you just disregarding all the arrests in germany, because german fans might have more, because theres a lot of englishmen there, because its not quite as bad as before? (because so many of your lot cant even be trusted to travel)

not a single arrested english fan has been charged, so the arrests were unfounded and as such england fans have been very well behaved. I was in Stuttgart when england had the rioting in the wc which was publisied as racist chanting "Two World Wars and One World Cup" isnt what id class as rascist.

Phang · 2 Jul 2006, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

It seems to me that you are saying the equivalent of "Ithink of the Roman Empire as basically a way of asserting Brazilian cultural dominance"

Don't be stupid. I don't entirely agree with his premises but it doesn't take a genius to see that Empire and modern politics are dominated by England. The argument is whether equal man-for-man representation for the Scots is worth the loss of self-rule to, loathe as I was to concede the point to Deffeh on MSN the other night, union with a region with markedly different political and cultural consensus.

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I can't second guess your (drug addled) mind.

This is flaming, and unconstructive.

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What I can do is asses facts and logiocal conclusions.

Yes, you can. Well syntaxed. Doesn't mean you are. You haven't applied argument or reason in this thread at all, that I can discern, except for when you have (wilfully?) misinterpreted simple points.

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If you are going to insist that you 'feel' that the British Empire was English then I am going to have to (out of a sense of duty) carry on correcting you by saying "well it wasn't".

There's an argument for that. Willing participation of Scottish divisions in Imperial Wars, the fact that Britain and debatably the Empire were founded by James VI, a Scot, and the very existence of places like Dunedin and Nova Scotia are all examples of this argument. You haven't made any of these points, or any points, and Deffeh has made well-reasoned (if heavily flawed) points in explaining his view. You don't have any kind of high ground here.

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Much like if you say that you feel that watermellons sprout legs and dance the cha cha when you put them in a fridge I would feel duty bound to say "no they don't"

This still isn't constructive.

Deffeh · 2 Jul 2006, 01:08

This is actually a three way penalty shoot out between Yahwe, pig, and pilgrim to see who can make more of a twat of themselves in one post.

Paisley · 2 Jul 2006, 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by pig

Im sorry kid but im not talking about the 70s/80s etc. The english as far as I know are integrating well with other fans. But theres so many of us that really we rarely need too or get the oppurtunity too.
How sad.

I am not talking about the 70's or the 80's

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/820000...liganap300.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/795000..._police300.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/850000...ootball300.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/755000...64_fans300.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/795000...0_thugs150.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/img/179/1...lviolence2.jpg
http://chinadaily.com.cn/sports/2006...2183177653.jpg
http://images.scotsman.com/2006/06/2...GLAND-BANS.jpg
http://doj.shef.ac.uk/GroupA/Fleet/_..._fight_300.jpg
http://images.scotsman.com/2006/06/24/engb.jpg
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/intern...000p_size6.jpg
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...06_228x217.jpg

I could go on but it would be a photo album that a Millwall bushwacker would be proud of.

That sure is "Intergrating" with other fans alright.

Yahwe · 2 Jul 2006, 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

There's an argument for that. Willing participation of Scottish divisions in Imperial Wars, the fact that Britain and debatably the Empire were founded by James VI, a Scot, and the very existence of places like Dunedin and Nova Scotia are all examples of this argument.

I have seen no argument that the Empire was English.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

You haven't made any of these points, or any points,

You will find my points on the last page under the sub heading homework.

I really don't need to come up with a million and one points to support the obvious. all deffeh does is state that the Empire is English.

When someone states a controversial proposition it is for them to prove it.

I will not waste my time typing out evidence for every retard that wanders onto the forum that water falling from the sky is called rain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

and Deffeh has made well-reasoned (if heavily flawed) points in explaining his view. You don't have any kind of high ground here.
This still isn't constructive.

No he hasn't

but this explains your misuse of the truth "loathe as I was to concede the point to Deffeh on MSN the other night"

don't amble in mid way to one of my discussions again.

And don't condescend to 'praise' me on my use of syntax when we both know that I taught you the word.

Phang · 2 Jul 2006, 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

I have seen no argument that the Empire was English.

You will find my points on the last page under the sub heading homework.

yeah, but they don't, do they. "It was called the British Empire but effectively it was the English Empire." "No look! It was called the British Empire! ****ing idiot"

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I really don't need to come up with a million and one points to support the obvious. all deffeh does is state that the Empire is English.

When someone states a controversial proposition it is for them to prove it.

he has attempted to prove it. You have just spouted off that he is wrong without ever once attempting to argue the correct point. You are not an idiot, you know you are doing this.

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I will not waste my time typing out evidence for every retard that wanders onto the forum that water falling from the sky is called rain.

This STILL isn't constructive.

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No he hasn't

but this explains your misuse of the truth "loathe as I was to concede the point to Deffeh on MSN the other night"

To you, maybe. Sharing mood?

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don't amble in mid way to one of my discussions again.

fuk u

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And don't condescend to 'praise' me on my use of syntax when we both know that I taught you the word.

crawl out of yourself.

OneColourRed · 2 Jul 2006, 01:38

I dont know how it can be said that Scottish fans are just as bad as English they are just outnumbered. Celtic had 60,000 fans travel to Seville for the UEFA cup final and there wasnt a single arrest. They won some kind of fair play award for it.

Most countries look forward to playing Scotland in internationals largely due to the good reputation that the Tartan army have. I'm friends with many in the tartan army and there are some that do try to cause trouble, however all the other fans basically stop them because they know they have a reputation and dont want to spoil it, they just go to party.

I think the reason there is so little trouble surrounding Scotland fans is that they dont always expect to win. English supporters do which is largely down to the media over-hyping their team which increases feelings of frustration and disappointment when things go wrong. England are a decent team but not nearly as good as they are made out to be, i mean the English media had their name on the world cup before the competition had even began and this has been the case in every majoy football tournament i can remember.

The vast amount of all football fans are really well bahaved but sadly it only takes a small number to tarnish the name of the mass. All you good england fans need to sit on your rowdy ones a bit more and try to stop the trouble before it starts.

As for English people feeling bullied to such an extent that they have been forced to move back down south i honestly think that is a pile of pish. I know lots of English people who live up here and most prefer it to when they lived down south. All have said they have found themselves to be made very welcome for the most part and while there are of course some idiots who shout abuse etc they are a tiny minority. 99.9% of and Scotland/England talk is simply banter. Its true we are rivals but what neibouring countries arent. I'm equally as sure there are Scottish people down south who are abused by a minority of English people. I once suffered this myself but was made to feel welcome by the majority(even though its a pain in the arse that some places dont take £1 notes).

Phang · 2 Jul 2006, 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneColourRed

(even though its a pain in the arse that some places dont take £1 notes).

buses don't take scottish tenners

Paisley · 2 Jul 2006, 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

buses don't take scottish tenners

Reminds me the time I took a taxi In london once... paid with a scottish tenner, the taxi driver said....broadest Cockney accent you have heard.

Right Guv, unless it has the queens loaf of bread on it I cant take it know what I mean.

Phang · 2 Jul 2006, 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paisley

Reminds me the time I took a taxi In london once... paid with a scottish tenner, the taxi driver said....broadest Cockney accent you have heard.

Right Guv, unless it has the queens loaf of bread on it I cant take it know what I mean.

spit hovis in his face

Paisley · 2 Jul 2006, 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

spit hovis in his face

I did say "gies piece and get yourself to fk"