Orange Walks

[Paisley]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5131470.stm

Is this sending out the wrong message?

[roadrunner_0]

i dont agree with them getting a govt. grant tbh, surely all that that is going to do is inflame tensions, also, why the **** would you want to take your children to that kind of thing? seriously 'ah yes, this is to commemorate the divisions between the two halves of our country, and stop them from healing'

[JonnyBGood]

The battle of the boyne, which the 12th of july has come to commemorate, was not an Irish affair, it was both Irish and British, and even international to a small extent. It's rather vulgar to be honest but then so are most triumphal displays of nationalism. If anything I'd like to see the government tax these sorts of things rather than give grants to them.

[Marilyn Manson]

'Humourous.'

[lokken]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

i dont agree with them getting a govt. grant tbh, surely all that that is going to do is inflame tensions, also, why the **** would you want to take your children to that kind of thing? seriously 'ah yes, this is to commemorate the divisions between the two halves of our country, and stop them from healing'

I think that's the idea of it

lolling at a poster called Paisley talking about Orange marches though

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by lokken

I think that's the idea of it

lolling at a poster called Paisley talking about Orange marches though

It does have that "drawback"

I once got a caution from the police for shouting "take your time and hurry up yous dirty orange bastards" whilst shouting from my car because I had been stuck near the saltmarket (in glasgow) for nearly an hour. Patence isnt a strong point of mines either.
I did see a woman "break the ranks" by crossing the road...boy that was a big mistake a group of lassies set about her

I respect that people have the right to march,also I am not anti orange.
I generally hate anything that causes traffic jams.

[Deffeh]

The Orange order has no other real function other than to parade protestantism in catholic faces and continue to exarcebate the divide between the communities. Not only should it not be given a grant, it should be discouraged, and not allowed to go through catholic areas.

Oh, and we shouldnt allow it in Scotland at all. (Its tommorow, i think?)

[Nodrog]

If Catholic schools are getting government money then theres no principled reason why this shouldnt also.

This is the sort of problem you get when you dont have a clear seperation between religion and state.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

(Its tommorow, i think?)

This is a rather amusing point. Rather than try and explain it I'll link to wikipedia.

Favourite quote

Being suspicious of anything with papist connotations, however, rather than shift the anniversary of the Boyne to the new 1 July or celebrate the new anniversary of Aughrim, the Orangemen continued to march on the 12 July which, in New Style dates marked the battle of the Boyne.

[Dace]

Oh dear ...

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Oh, and we shouldnt allow it in Scotland at all. (Its tommorow, i think?)

I disagree; a situation where you have to deal with some unsavoury types having a walk down the street is infinitely preferably one where the government is actively involved in deciding which political/religious groups should be allowed to hold demonstrations. Banning orange marches isnt really any different from banning gay pride festivals, or political protests (eg anti-globalisation parades during the G8 conference), or any other demonstration by a group that wants publicity and/or to make a statement. One of the downfalls of living in a semi-free society is that occasionally youll be exposed to things you dont like.

edit: I realise that at the moment the government does play a role in sanctioning demonstrations, but banning the OO is another step in the wrong direction.

[Dace]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

If Catholic schools are getting government money then theres no principled reason why this shouldnt also.

Originally Posted by Deffeh

The Orange order has no other real function other than to parade protestantism in catholic faces and continue to exarcebate the divide between the communities.

I'm pretty sure Catholic schools don't parade Catholicism in Protestant faces and continue to exacerbate the divide between communities.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dace

I'm pretty sure Catholic schools don't parade Catholicism in Protestant faces and continue to exacerbate the divide between communities.

How does having Catholic schools not continue to exacerbate the divide between communities? If black people wanted state-funded black-only schools where more emphasis was put on teaching African history and the like, would this not be contributing to the racial divide?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

If black people wanted state-funded black-only schools where more emphasis was put on teaching African history and the like, would this not be contributing to the racial divide?

In one sense it might be, but it overall might reduce the divide in terms of earnings or educational attainment* or things like that. If that was the case then a debate could be had about which type of divide we'd prefer.

* = I think the only reason people suggest 'all black schools' is the theory they'll boost standards among black children.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

II think the only reason people suggest 'all black schools' is the theory they'll boost standards among black children.

Well I think those arguments are generally invalid but thats off-topic. I was talking about a scheme which was motivated by the desire to focus more on black history/culture in school, along the currently fashionable "African American Studies" line. Catholic schools dont exist to increase educational standards (although they might have this effect in some cases); they exist for reasons related to indoctrination.

[JonnyBGood]

No dude catholic schools exist because they're a historical remnant of the days when catholic schools were banned, all schools were religious at that point. Having something taken away from you means there becomes a lot of cultural momentum behind it when it resurfaces.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

I was talking about a scheme which was motivated by the desire to focus more on black history/culture in school, along the currently fashionable "African American Studies" line.

I don't think you can separate the two ideas so easily. People want their children to be brought up in "their" way of life not just becuase they want to mindlessly propogate their memes but because they tend to think their way of life is better. The idea behind conservative upbringings isn't just "lol our kids will hate gays too" but that a conservative upbringing will lead to more discipline, respect and a better standard of living. The idea behind a lot of these "African American studies" type programs is that by learning about "their people" black pupils will have more self-esteem, pride, better results, etc.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

I don't think you can separate the two ideas so easily. People want their children to be brought up in "their" way of life not just becuase they want to mindlessly propogate their memes but because they tend to think their way of life is better. The idea behind conservative upbringings isn't just "lol our kids will hate gays too" but that a conservative upbringing will lead to more discipline, respect and a better standard of living. The idea behind a lot of these "African American studies" type programs is that by learning about "their people" black pupils will have more self-esteem, pride, better results, etc.

And an obvious effect of such an approach is division and sectarianism. Which was I believe Gordon's point

[dda]

Oranges. yummmmmmmmmmmmmm!

I like tangerines too.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by dda

Oranges. yummmmmmmmmmmmmm!

I like tangerines too.

The thing is these Oranges will taste rather "bitter"

[gzambo]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The battle of the boyne, which the 12th of july has come to commemorate, was not an Irish affair, it was both Irish and British, and even international to a small extent. It's rather vulgar to be honest but then so are most triumphal displays of nationalism. If anything I'd like to see the government tax these sorts of things rather than give grants to them.

didnt those pesky dutchies have something to do with it

[Achilles]

Let me start by saying I hate the Catholic Church with a purple passion and I believe it has been the single greatest force for evil throughout history. Rome was in the business of brutal suppression long before Muhammad starting preaching the Koran and it continues to this very day; the institutionalised protection of pedophiles or the willfull murder of Africans caused by the explicit ban on condoms serve as examples of this.

Having said all that I don't think it's fair or equitable to compare catholic schools to orange marches. One is a way of trying to ensure the values some people so fervently and blindly cling to are passed on their children. The other is a display of military triumphantism and an exercise in belittlement and intolerance.

[Ephor]

The government certainly shouldn't be giving money to quasi-religious groups, though I suppose their intention is to sell our 'culture' as a tourist attraction (we certainly need the money). I suppose the problem is that in recent years, and then the centuries that preceded them, our culture has been tainted by bad feeling. I think it's an appalling idea firstly because I can't see the Orange Order attracting 'new customers' to our shores, and secondly because the money from any tourism we do see will inevitably find itself in the pocket of only one half of the community*.

In fact, if we are looking for a stimulant to tourism then republicanism would be far more easily cashed-in on (think of all those yanks that call theirselves Irish for example!). Of course, proposals to turn part of Long Kesh into a museum documenting the troubles and in part the cause of those such as the late MP Bobby Sands were met by opposition from both unionist communities and parliament. I expect if you approached the government with a plan to market republicanism as a tourist attraction you would receive a strong argument that, with a little editing, could be effectively turned against this support of the Orangemen.



*yes I'm sure republicans could participate in the holding of this 'party', but that's not going to happen so don't make that post

[Ephor]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Well I think those arguments are generally invalid but thats off-topic. I was talking about a scheme which was motivated by the desire to focus more on black history/culture in school, along the currently fashionable "African American Studies" line. Catholic schools dont exist to increase educational standards (although they might have this effect in some cases); they exist for reasons related to indoctrination.

This is a good point, but the current history curriculum is certainly biased towards teaching British history (probably as much as African American Studies is afrocentric), and this certainly doesn't represent certain sections of our society. Does this not lean towards indoctrinating youth with a British sentiment?

[Snurx]

Is loyalism still connected to brithis fascist movements and unionist violence? I remember reading about one Orange Order march that was stewarded by C18. I know too little about the current situation in Ireland

[Deffeh]

On my way to play football with Dace today, i walked through glasgow city center.

I was wearing a celtic top. I puffed my chest out and got nothing but dirty looks, until i got just past queen street, and heard the drums and flutes of inbred skinheads. Coming right in my direction, and right between me and my destination, was thousands of huns.

My resolve departed me. I buttoned up my shirt as quick as i could, and slowed down my walk. Then i turned in the opposite direction. Then a couple of neds noticed me and started shouting, so i ducked into a classical music shop and hid. For 20-30 minutes, as the Queens army and pretty much the worst pondlife glasgow scotland and belfast have to offer paraded past.

The orangemen themselves are annoying, but they are literally surrounded by neds, skinheads, drunks, thugs, pricks, rangers fans, whatever you want to call them. Seriously, the lowest form of life, singing anti-catholic songs, down with the pope etc. Its actually terrifying.

The worst part is you can see the next generation of scum - fat 40 something men with a kid with "proddy 9" on the back of their rangers tops on their shoulders - smiling, as if its a lovely daddy and sons day out - "am gonnae raise mah kid the rangers way".

**** freedom of expression and liberty, lets employ common sense and ban this shit.

[Ephor]

Originally Posted by Snurx

Is loyalism still connected to brithis fascist movements and unionist violence? I remember reading about one Orange Order march that was stewarded by C18. I know too little about the current situation in Ireland

Combat 18 doesn't really exist any more, in fact it was rumoured to be an elaborate Mi5 sting operation. Whatever the truth behind that, the security services certainly cracked down on their operation after Brick Lane and all the other trouble they stirred up. Extreme unionism and extreme British nationalism are pretty much the same thing, but I don't know how much co-ordination there is between the two groups other than skinheads attending Orange marches or whatever.

[Snurx]

Deffeh, was there no resistance? I thought that a march like that in Scotland would be met by antifa's, celtic casuals etc?

Ephor: I did not know that they had shut down shop. The sting was just one of their leaders, as far as I can recall, and I dont think it was a mole but a nazi turned snitch (they have a tendency to do that). And it was not officials that stamped out fascism, they just like to take all the credit afterwards (im not saying that they did not take action, but the demise of the NF and the BNP as a streetparty cant be said to be the job of the police afaik)

The links were numerous before, when the NF had their period in the 70ies and the BNP/BM/B&H in the 80ies and early 90ies. However, I do not know the recent history of fascism over in your country. They stewarded for eachother, leaftleted, joined forces to attack Troops Out meetings/rallies and whatnot.

Back on topic, paying for a demonstration just seems odd to me. I would not accept money or bribery to organize a march/rally. I can to a extent understand that they want to make it a tourism event, but they got very bad strategies if they think that promoting the Orange Order will make people more happy to visit.

[Deffeh]

Im sure it is at some parts but its heavily policed too - all along the routes, walking amongst them (no comment ), police literally everywhere, and the roads are all ****ing blocked and diverted for the whole process.

And only the most extreme celtic/republican casuals would be silly enough to intervene - there is seriously thousands of the ****s - youd be ****ing dead. If i had walked through them like i almost did wearing my celtic top, i would have been stabbed, bottled, and pissed on when i was dead. I wasnt making a political point today when i walked out in it - i was going to play football. But it would have been "my fault" if i was killed for wearing it i suppose

[Snurx]

I was under the impression that the antifa outfit in Scotland and Northern England (assuming they made the trip) is a fearsome one. Maybe was is a better word?

Tactics for distrubing marches even if the police is present is many, well tried and effective. It's just up to dedication.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

On my way to play football with Dace today, i walked through glasgow city center.

I was wearing a celtic top.

Youre part of the problem, lets not try to act high and mighty here.

[s|k]

Just kill each other already and get over it.

[Deffeh]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Youre part of the problem, lets not try to act high and mighty here.

I heard people who support football teams sometimes buy club shirts and when you play football its sometimes good to wear football shirts because they are designed for playing football in.

Also i completely forgot it was hun season. Indeed, why should i have to go out of MY way to remember?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

I heard people who support football teams sometimes buy club shirts and when you play football its sometimes good to wear football shirts because they are designed for playing football in.

Also i completely forgot it was hun season. Indeed, why should i have to go out of MY way to remember?

By buying Celtic merchandise and paying money to the club, youre explicitly sanctioning sectarianism. There are lots of football clubs in Scotland who you could choose to support, but youve decided that you want to follow one which has a lot to do with the current problems. As such, I would say that you, (along with all other celtic/ranger fans) shoulder a fair bit of the blame.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

By buying Celtic merchandise and paying money to the club, youre explicitly sanctioning sectarianism. There are lots of football clubs in Scotland who you could choose to support, but youve decided that you want to follow one which has a lot to do with the current problems. As such, I would say that you, (along with all other celtic/ranger fans) shoulder a fair bit of the blame.

Celtic was founded on the basis of a charity helping the poor in the east end of glasgow.
Also there are active measures taken to stamp out this Nil By Mouth being the most well known group.
http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/antisec...m/06040113.htm

The problem is when religion and politics is brought into football.

[Deffeh]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

By buying Celtic merchandise and paying money to the club, youre explicitly sanctioning sectarianism. There are lots of football clubs in Scotland who you could choose to support, but youve decided that you want to follow one which has a lot to do with the current problems. As such, I would say that you, (along with all other celtic/ranger fans) shoulder a fair bit of the blame.

What paisley said, plus;

(apart from the whole why should you support x or its silly to attach yourself to a club etc argument), i have supported Celtic since i can remember being alive, and you cant fake affinity. Sure, our fans are certainly not harmless. But you dont see me condoning hibernian marches or putting pictures of bobby sands up on my wall and shouting his name down govan. (Ok, so i have an affinity with the irish - as every good scot should - and i would enjoy seeing the monarchy abolished - but who the **** wouldnt?)

As far as promoting sectarianism is concerned, this is most definitely not something i'm guilty of. You might not know this, but i'm nominally protestant.