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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:22   #1
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[Discuss]Football and morality.

After I started a conversation about the things thorwn continously onto the pitch at the Everton Man U game yesterday, I was quite startled by several things said by certain people (who I won't name). I would also stress, its things said

Mainly...

1) The Manchester United players deserved it because all Mancs are assholes.
2) They deserve to run the risk of being hurt by things from the crowd, as they are overpaid.
3) Some of em are rapists.

Log
<Forest_afk> So, whilst keanu reeves is in the midlle of filming the matrix, would u say it is ok for 20 ppl to throw stuff at him, because he earns loads of money, so should run that risk?
<xxxxx> depends, is he in general the kind of arsehole that goes around rapeing women... like a proportion of professional footballers do

4) They do adverts which makes people hate them cause they are arrogant.

My personal views..

1) Huh? That is stereotypical, and unfair. You may as well say that all indians deserve to have things thrown at them. (yes, it IS a race statement, verbally abusing someone from weher they come from, whether a country or a city).
2) Movie stars etc, earn load, but they shouldn't have to ahve things thrown at them, as in my statement in the log.
3) You will prob find a higher percentage of rapists, at ur average factory, then percentage of footballers. Of all the hundreds of footballers, across the world, very few would be rapists. It is indeed an absurb suggestion that you can tell who a rapist is, because of his job.
4) Loads of people do adverts, but they don't get abused in thier job.



I would like to state that hooligism has dropped substantially, and I have attented all bar 3 games of a top football team for 16 years or so, so I am talking from experience.
I will always maintain though, that a footballer has a right to do his job safe from physical harm. Am I so out of touch with things?


Discuss...
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:25   #2
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Whoever you were talking to is a dick head.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:27   #3
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Oh god fs.. right first off ill say as i said before in the channel when you wqere dicussing this with the others. hooligism has not DROPPED from the old days. before it used to be about honour and respect.. now its pure hatred and vilence. For instance look how many countries keep threatening to kick us out of the world cup and euro compeitions cuz our fans go over there get pissed and ruin it for god sake. You call that dropping? Come on forest.

Plus in the old days Liverpool and manchester united both won the euopean cups.. and instead of saying 'Oh its united and liverpool there scum' they instead said back then 'come on united and liverpool, COME ON ENGLAND' Then they had honour about an english team actually winning the cup... now fans are just bitter as they just hate the fact its not there team respenting England... thats how times have changed.


Now Forrest your also using this quote i said out of proportion. im reffering to this comment:

4) They do adverts which makes people hate them cause they are arrogant

Now forest what i say is true. For instance beckham does those stupuid adverts where he is a gladiator and claiming to be 'unbeatable' and then he plays shit when hes actually playing. Whats the point in doing adverts like that? Why not just keep quiet, train hard and show people what you are in the game like the old players. You didnt see Pele doing that for god sake.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:28   #4
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
Whoever you were talking to is a dick head.

What concerns me is it was actually 4 ppl, who were being serious in thier statements.
And please keep it objective. I am not here for a slanging match.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:30   #5
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Oh god fs.. right first off ill say as i said before in the channel when you wqere dicussing this with the others. hooligism has not DROPPED from the old days. before it used to be about honour and respect.. now its pure hatred and vilence. For instance look how many countries keep threatening to kick us out of the world cup and euro compeitions cuz our fans go over there get pissed and ruin it for god sake. You call that dropping? Come on forest.

Plus in the old days Liverpool and manchester united both won the euopean cups.. and instead of saying 'Oh its united and liverpool there scum' they instead said back then 'come on united and liverpool, COME ON ENGLAND' Then they had honour about an english team actually winning the cup... now fans are just bitter as they just hate the fact its not there team respenting England... thats how times have changed.

Compared to the old days its a lot better, due to increased intelliegnece (such as cctv etc).
And my argument is that NO hooligism is ok, so I dont see how you are arguing against me
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:32   #6
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Compared to the old days its a lot better, due to increased intelliegnece (such as cctv etc).
And my argument is that NO hooligism is ok, so I dont see how you are arguing against me

Im arguing for the last comment you made about it improving.. as thats false. Its got worse.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:34   #7
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

How much does a coin hurt when it hits you? Seriously, has anyone experienced it? Carroll went down like he had been shot. If it had been a mobile phone then fair enough, i would imagine that would be quite painful, but unless it was a 50p stuck in the side of his head i cant see it being too bad. I was hit by a golf ball once and didnt go down like he did. I'm not saying it should be allowed, personally i would ban anyone for life that throws objects at players, but i think Carroll over reacted a bit.

As an aside, didnt you used to have the tag of a Pompey hooligan group on the end of your name Forest?
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:35   #8
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Oh god fs.. right first off ill say as i said before in the channel when you wqere dicussing this with the others. hooligism has not DROPPED from the old days. before it used to be about honour and respect.. now its pure hatred and vilence. For instance look how many countries keep threatening to kick us out of the world cup and euro compeitions cuz our fans go over there get pissed and ruin it for god sake. You call that dropping? Come on forest.

Plus in the old days Liverpool and manchester united both won the euopean cups.. and instead of saying 'Oh its united and liverpool there scum' they instead said back then 'come on united and liverpool, COME ON ENGLAND' Then they had honour about an english team actually winning the cup... now fans are just bitter as they just hate the fact its not there team respenting England... thats how times have changed.

There is a case to be made that hooligism hasn't got any better in this country. I would like to point out that Euro 2004 passed with out real incindent with regard to English fans (their passports were taken away from them). Also, this is not a problem for the English alone. The Turks are just as bad - remember when they killed a Leeds fan in Turkey? Apart from the obvious candidates (Milwall supporters - I know they are the pits, I support Crystal Palace), I dont think hoolinism is too bad in this country. Or at the very least, I have never seen it at Selhurst Park
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:36   #9
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Im arguing for the last comment you made about it improving.. as thats false. Its got worse.
Totally incorrect.
England fans now actually get PRAISED for their behaviour more often than not, and its countries such as Spain who get threats of being thrown out of competitions.
Behaviour of England fans inproved dramtically when fans had to be a memebr of the England club to get tickets.
Sure, you get a few guys go across into europe just to start a fight, but thats not nearly as bad as it used to be, due to people having to hand in thier passports when they go abroad.

Again, don't just say 'hooligism is getting worse' without anything to back it up, cause frankly, I will own yo, as will most of the guys on here who actually know about football.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:38   #10
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

probably not, bnut general attitudes of fans are not better then they were in the past. I agree that u shudnt ofc throw things at players.. the worst ive saw was when i was watching manchester United play Arsenal and they were throwing loads of stuff at the united players. Even a fone at rooney. But i dissagree with the 'its improved' line. What i cant understand is how forest can post a post about its not write for players to be abused like this and then claim hooligism has decreesed... isnt that a bit contradicitve?
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:38   #11
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:40   #12
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
How much does a coin hurt when it hits you? Seriously, has anyone experienced it? Carroll went down like he had been shot. If it had been a mobile phone then fair enough, i would imagine that would be quite painful, but unless it was a 50p stuck in the side of his head i cant see it being too bad. I was hit by a golf ball once and didnt go down like he did. I'm not saying it should be allowed, personally i would ban anyone for life that throws objects at players, but i think Carroll over reacted a bit.

As an aside, didnt you used to have the tag of a Pompey hooligan group on the end of your name Forest?

I must say, (just to weaken my argument somewhat, but it was a first so iw ill tell you), at the pompey v blackburn game i was hit by a coin, or something. It split my head open, i cant remember the match, and I now have a big hole there. So yes, it does hurt a LOT.
I didnt fall over, but I was in shock, and kinda just walked round a bit

And yes id id, but, i ahve nothing to do with football, it was because i didnt want to us emy board nick as my ingame name, and as uw ill notice, it has been removed. It was silly of me.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:42   #13
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Oh and forest i wud like to challenge you over this comment:

'Again, don't just say 'hooligism is getting worse' without anything to back it up, cause frankly, I will own yo, as will most of the guys on here who actually know about football.'

Now a few weeks ago you were in the channel #icy on NG and you were speaking about how you had never saw any major violence in football... till today. You were hit by an object thrown from another crowd member.. is this correct? Now.. you still beleive after you even admitted urself you hadnt saw any major violence till when you were actually struck a few weeks ago.. that the violence has actually improved?
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:42   #14
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin

4) They do adverts which makes people hate them cause they are arrogant

Now forest what i say is true. For instance beckham does those stupuid adverts where he is a gladiator and claiming to be 'unbeatable' and then he plays shit when hes actually playing. Whats the point in doing adverts like that? Why not just keep quiet, train hard and show people what you are in the game like the old players. You didnt see Pele doing that for god sake.
They do those adverts because of sponsorship deals, as i'm sure you're aware of. Having well known faces is more likely to sell your product than a nobody. Quite frankly, why do you care what they do in the adverts? If you were in his shoes and had the opportunity to do the same i'm sure you'd be doing it too.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:42   #15
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Id like to confirm that the statement about wanting to beat the living shit out of most people who do adverts rings very true. The number of times ive wanted to find Linda Barker and smack her in the face with a spade for those Curry's adverts goes into 4 figures.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:42   #16
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

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You didnt see Pele doing that for god sake.
didn't he do an ad about erectile dysfunction/viagra? much more classy hey
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:42   #17
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
What i cant understand is how forest can post a post about its not write for players to be abused like this and then claim hooligism has decreesed... isnt that a bit contradicitve?

Racism in this country has decreased, but its still wrong. Just cause something is less than it used to be, doesnt make it ok.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:43   #18
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

At this point I'd like to point out that "hooligism" isn't a word; It's "hooliganism"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
4) They do adverts which makes people hate them cause they are arrogant

Now forest what i say is true. For instance beckham does those stupuid adverts where he is a gladiator and claiming to be 'unbeatable' and then he plays shit when hes actually playing. Whats the point in doing adverts like that? Why not just keep quiet, train hard and show people what you are in the game like the old players. You didnt see Pele doing that for god sake.
This is stupid. Just because a player has appeared in advertising campaigns does not give people the right to attempt to injure him by throwing things at him. Oh, and it wasn't just Beckham that appeared in those Pepsi adverts. I assume you think that Roberto Carlos, Ronaldihno and Raul also "play shit" and deserve to have things thrown at them as well?
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:44   #19
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arbondigo
They do those adverts because of sponsorship deals, as i'm sure you're aware of. Having well known faces is more likely to sell your product than a nobody. Quite frankly, why do you care what they do in the adverts? If you were in his shoes and had the opportunity to do the same i'm sure you'd be doing it too.

No i wudnt.. hes a world class footballer. Why do you need to act like a model for? And the response about pele.. that was after he retired
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:45   #20
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obliterate
At this point I'd like to point out that "hooligism" isn't a word; It's "hooliganism"



This is stupid. Just because a player has appeared in advertising campaigns does not give people the right to attempt to injure him by throwing things at him. Oh, and it wasn't just Beckham that appeared in those Pepsi adverts. I assume you think that Roberto Carlos, Ronaldihno and Raul also "play shit" and deserve to have things thrown at them as well?
I Sujest you read this thread all the way through as i didnt once state i agreed to them getting injured. read ALL of my posts before trying to claim things.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:45   #21
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Now a few weeks ago you were in the channel #icy on NG and you were speaking about how you had never saw any major violence in football... till today. You were hit by an object thrown from another crowd member.. is this correct? Now.. you still beleive after you even admitted urself you hadnt saw any major violence till when you were actually struck a few weeks ago.. that the violence has actually improved?
I said in 16 years i had only personally seen major violence twice. Once being the coin hitting me, and once when we played brighton and i ended up somwehere i shouldnt of.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:48   #22
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
No i wudnt.. hes a world class footballer. Why do you need to act like a model for? And the response about pele.. that was after he retired
That's easy to say when you're not a professional footballer. I'm sure if you were a well known professional footballer with a similar mindset then you'd be doing adverts too.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:49   #23
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Id like to confirm that the statement about wanting to beat the living shit out of most people who do adverts rings very true. The number of times ive wanted to find Linda Barker and smack her in the face with a spade for those Curry's adverts goes into 4 figures.
Maybe, but you wouldnt go and do tht.

Btw kura, please apoligise to millie for me kick/banning her, but she was making some quite absurd comments and it annoyed me
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 13:57   #24
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

hooliganism is nothing compared to what it used to be like. Even Millwall fans have calmed down a bit.
Policing methods have improved, identification of trouble makers has improved, cooperation by the clubs has improved.
There is barely any trouble at a vast majority of football matches nowadays. Yes, we don't hear about some of it but how often do you see pitch invasions? crowd fighting? injuries after the game between fans?
It is exactly the same in other countries.

Anyway, regarding the topic - it is not right throwing things at players under any circumstances. It is hardly unheard of, and it happens in other countries as well.
The difference is that the fans are so far back from the pitch in other countries that they can't actually reach it. Watch Italian football to see how many flares get thrown down to the front.

I'd say a reason (notice I say a reason not the reason) more things are getting thrown at players is a result of excessive goal celebrations, players seem to goad (sp?) the crowd more than they used to.
Also players move from club to club simply for financial gain. How many players stick with a club there whole career any more? A transfer was relatively rare in previous times.
While us fans stick by our club through thick and thin, the players sometimes seem that they couldn't care less and simply move when times get bad.

But anyway, fans should stick to giving the players stick from the terraces instead of throwing things at them. Noone deserves to be injured no matter what.

A coin in the head can hurt a hell of a lot, it's small and pointy.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 14:04   #25
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

i'm amazed how civilised english footballfans usually are and how close they can sit to the field.
here we need 100's of policemen, and several fences and canals to keep the peace.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 14:40   #26
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
How much does a coin hurt when it hits you? Seriously, has anyone experienced it?
Yes, and assuming it hits you side-on, it hurts an awful lot.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 15:15   #27
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Damn you JC, I was going to mention 657.

Also, just to point out, I think I'm correct in saying that the Real Madrid players have to appear in adverts like the Pepsi one as it's part of their contract with the club. Unlike other clubs the likes of Pepsi sign the deal with the club, not the players. This is why there were problems with Beckham and Vodafone when he signed. I realise this is proof that Beckham was doing adverts for personal gain before he had to.

I don't think it needs stating that of course it's wrong for things to be thrown (unless it's at Christiano Ronaldo) but players do overreact.

Oh, and Forest, please spend less time around Rumad
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 15:50   #28
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Oh god fs.. right first off ill say as i said before in the channel when you wqere dicussing this with the others. hooligism has not DROPPED from the old days. before it used to be about honour and respect.. now its pure hatred and vilence.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs3/f..._stats2004.pdf

Whilst it's a Home Office publication, table three would indicate arrest levels for domestic football related violence have remained largely static in the past ten years whilst attendance has increased by a third over the same time period.

Also, I'm pretty sure there was little honour and respect involved during the 1980's Millwall violence. In fact, throughout the 70's and with the proliferation of televised matches, hooliganism was rife all across Europe (the Italians blamed the English for 'influencing' their youth through news footage of English match violence). With a few notable exceptions the late 90s and beyond have been relatively free of large-scale domestic hooliganism along the lines of pitch invasions and all-out riots.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 17:02   #29
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Maybe, but you wouldnt go and do tht.

Btw kura, please apoligise to millie for me kick/banning her, but she was making some quite absurd comments and it annoyed me
No , ill just get claire to tell her where you live and she can come visit with her 6 brothers
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 17:17   #30
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

People who make money because they're better at something than I am deserve to die and that's objective fact guys.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 18:12   #31
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

I believe the vast majority of Arsenal fans at Highbury are well behaved. Even when Spurs fans pay a visit to see their team get beaten.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 18:51   #32
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

What is funny about football, if you can't have the violence?
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 19:25   #33
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

The only reason this situation even arises is because YOU and everyone spends money to see these games, see these films and bla bla.

Also, most of the rape stories are merely fabricated by whores who want attention and money.
(Most noteable: Rebecca Loos, chief whore of the attentionseekers guild.)
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 20:01   #34
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
No , ill just get claire to tell her where you live and she can come visit with her 6 brothers
Best start saving up for new lightbulbs, Forest
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 20:15   #35
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Yes remove those light bulbs and freak Forest out again!

Nothing like coming home from the pub, half cut to find some git has been in your flat and stolen all the light bulbs from it to freak you out
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 20:23   #36
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

ITT forest argues with his friends and most of GD looks on.
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Unread 20 Feb 2005, 20:28   #37
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

I would hardly call most of the ppl replying here 'friends'. I dont know most of em.
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Unread 21 Feb 2005, 01:18   #38
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
I must say, i was hit by a coin, or something. It split my head open


you shouldn't sit on the street begging for "spare change" if you're not willing to risk the consequences then
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Unread 21 Feb 2005, 01:21   #39
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought most of the football fighting of today was casuals, and not the big riots. If people want to beat eachother up, what's so wrong with it? I understand when they throw shit on the pitch, or beat up innocents, but when casuals fight eachother, it's not really, uhm, wrong?
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Unread 21 Feb 2005, 01:45   #40
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

They're not exactly doing it in private or unobstructing other people snurx.
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Unread 21 Feb 2005, 15:54   #41
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

I got hit by a coin standing in the away stand at Forest. It did hurt a lot more than I thought it would. A boy in front of me who was about ten got hit too and was hurt really badly. The stewards didn't do a thing to stop it. One of our fans, disgusted by all this, started shouting abuse at the stewards and the F****t fans and got carted off. Figure that one out.
And we lost 3-1.
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Unread 21 Feb 2005, 16:02   #42
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier
I got hit by a coin standing in the away stand at Forest. It did hurt a lot more than I thought it would. A boy in front of me who was about ten got hit too and was hurt really badly. The stewards didn't do a thing to stop it. One of our fans, disgusted by all this, started shouting abuse at the stewards and the F****t fans and got carted off. Figure that one out.
And we lost 3-1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier
Figure that one out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier
Forest stewards
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier
Forest
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Unread 22 Feb 2005, 03:01   #43
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

For the record, i've also seen misbehaviour in what was a nothing at stake league cup tie last season at Forest. Someone kept throwing plastic bottles on us from the tier above, fortunately no one got hurt, and eventually after a bit of legwork by the stewards (although why they couldn't sort it out first time i don't know) it was sorted out (well we didn't see any bottles anymore)

I'd hardly describe the City Ground as a scary place though; every club has its loons and they've just got to brushed off; don't give them the credit they deserve. The only really nasty atmosphere i've seen away from home is at Leicester when we drew 1-1 in the promotion season, as our clubs ****ing hate each other. I would happily sit in the City Ground again as it's a decent stadium with a bit of atmos; as for the Walkers - i have little desire to line their pockets.
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Unread 22 Feb 2005, 18:39   #44
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
They're not exactly doing it in private or unobstructing other people snurx.
So, thing like this should be kept in private? Why? Does not everybody have a equal right to have fun in public places, no matter what that fun is, as long as they don't hurt others? Of course, if they do that, it's something else.
And in what way are they unobstructing? Beacause of the police presence, or the tight security? All things they have no part in. Where they fight, they will obstuct, but I don't see where else they will. Lots of things that are allowed, even encouraged, in public places, takes up space and obstruct me. But, those people should also have free accsess to public places.
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Unread 22 Feb 2005, 18:51   #45
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

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You didnt see Pele doing that for god sake.
No, just impotence ads. Interesting.
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Unread 22 Feb 2005, 19:03   #46
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Re: [Discuss]Football and morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
So, thing like this should be kept in private? Why? Does not everybody have a equal right to have fun in public places, no matter what that fun is, as long as they don't hurt others? Of course, if they do that, it's something else.
And in what way are they unobstructing? Beacause of the police presence, or the tight security? All things they have no part in. Where they fight, they will obstuct, but I don't see where else they will. Lots of things that are allowed, even encouraged, in public places, takes up space and obstruct me. But, those people should also have free accsess to public places.
If you're having a seventy man brawl in a main street there's a fairly high chance of anyone attempting to pass by being injured whereas a seventy man peaceful demonstration or some other lawful assembly is slightly less likely to result in people being harassed and physically affected. Just like you can't randomly discharge a firearm in public because you feel like it (or to take the reasoning even further ad absurdum throw a nuclear bomb up in the air and refuse to accept responsibility for anything which occurs as a result) people shouldn't be allowed to fight in public. Not to mention the practical problem of being unable to tell the difference between two people having a lawful fight and one person kicking the shit out of someone because he feels like it.
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