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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 18:22   #51
KoLoTH
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by teqh
basicly 11 hours to send a fleet in the universe is to long time.. it takes one complete day to do one attack with CR/BS ?

it`s bullocks
I agree completely xD
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 18:31   #52
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by teqh
basicly 11 hours to send a fleet in the universe is to long time.. it takes one complete day to do one attack with CR/BS ?
Reduce the ETA by 1 and you save a grand total of 2 hours - hardly much difference if people usually attack at the same time.
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 19:53   #53
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Re: Round 20 Review

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to get cluster to defend each other and work well togheter you could make just the galaxys on your sides make the cluster defence bonus.

so if you are in galaxy 4:3 only galaxy 4:2 and 4:4 whould have the travel time bonus.

galaxy 2:1 whould then this whould workhave the galaxys 2:2 and 2:10 (if 10 is the highest)as their def buddys.

this will make galaxys in cluster work togheter even if the galaxys on your sides are not great ,they are the only outside your gal that can make it in time.

i like clusters but they dont work like they used to do,i think this will make clusters better.

x3
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 21:29   #54
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Remove the in Cluster Attack bonus
Change Cluster to -1
Alliance -1
Cluster & Alliance -2

This is also a interesting idea
"so if you are in galaxy 4:3 only galaxy 4:2 and 4:4 whould have the travel time bonus."
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 22:48   #55
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

But what if the two galaxies either side of your galaxy are rubbish galaxies with no active planets? There's nothing you can do to control that, and it'd have an obvious negative effect.
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 00:46   #56
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

-=-

Actually -- Our cluster Alliance/Nap =U2= has held all game thanks to some base C-alliance rules that we set in motion during the first week. Anyone is welcome to use these rules in future games if they wish to - or modify them as needed for their concept of c-alliance. But these rules definitly made for a great game in our cluster. There was no raping of inactive or semi-inactive galaxies in our cluster. If you did that you were screwed for doing so.

=U2= C-alliance rules:
http://home.mindspring.com/~carwars/id5.html

I think the universe eta is way too long - needs to be reduced by 1 tick

I agree with others that in-cluster attacks should have no bonus - but in-cluster defense should have a bonus. This would allow those that wish to c-nap/c-ally to do so and those that didn't to not be raped.

Just my thoughts
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 00:57   #57
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remberasha
Jeez who wrote all that?
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 04:56   #58
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

someone who should consider if they shouldn't take up minigolf instead.
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 14:29   #59
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Absurd.

Remove one of the only things that keeps this game even remotely playable.
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 14:57   #60
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Leave them. Who cares if clusters are secondary to alliances? Who cares if the weakest links and NAP breakers become farms? They have always been! They should be, for the sake of both vet and n00b players and game drama!

Last edited by Aedolaws; 9 Aug 2007 at 05:21.
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Unread 8 Aug 2007, 15:46   #61
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

For the record, in my first round, our private galaxy was quite literally raped in-cluster on daily basis, and we had tremendous fun, being new to the game and trying our best to arrange defense, however hopeless the situation looked.

It was like a major success and celebration in gal channel when we managed to make one of them recall. And that round kept me in the game and made me find myself an alliance. It was also more "fun" than most later rounds I played.

Of course, not everyone may react the same way under constant incoming and roidloss, but I do believe that the whole "newbies get bashed and quit" is blown way out of proportion, and new players do not really need all the protection and caring for that some people are trying to give them.

Just let the game flow on its own, and let players worry about themselves and find their own way around.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 07:14   #62
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

leave em in


clusters add a level of contact to the game which is nice for both new and old players, i myself repeatedly recruited new allianceless players from the cluster channels in the past and will continue to do so in the future... don't whine about spying from one alliance because all alliance use cluster channels to get intel...

it's true that some ppl raid incluster repeatedly on the smaller galaxies, but that is game dynamics and shouldn't be the concern of PAteam but SHOULD be the concern of the HC's (as leaders of the community) and the community itself.

if we (the community) have such problems with these actions than WE should take measurements against it. meaning agreeing on some kind of 'gentleman agreement' in which we decide that any member who takes part in these 'unwanted' actions should be kicked from the alliance he's in. this measurement also creates a new window to recruiting new ppl that we meet in the cluster.

but i guess that would take too much of a mentality change coz it still seems kicking ppl out of your alliance is totally 'not done' within PA.

imho the option m666 is a good suggestion aswell.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 08:23   #63
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Now what hc in their right mind would kick somebody from the alliance for attacking in cluster. LOL
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 10:46   #64
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

it's not the attack that is unwanted. it's repeatedly or organised bashing that is unwanted.

tbh your remark shows that part of mentality i was talking about.
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 12:40   #65
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

if you can't take the heat, exile... :crymeariver:
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Unread 9 Aug 2007, 12:55   #66
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

I guess you could reintroduce private gals and you could put whole alliances into clusters, then u could have massive alliance/cluster wars

if u did this u could make it so that u could only defend within cluster(alliance).

but that would kinda suck for us planets who just play for fun with no alliance thesedays i guess
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 17:43   #67
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
For instance, Seaton (fakenick, which he readily admitted to) never did reveal his true nickname because his alliance apparently had told him he'd be kicked out if he did so (that's Vengeance, by the way). He took all of our intel out (from every planet/gal who wanted to be in the nap) and our nicknames, and added us to the channel. He never did release this intel he'd gathered to the rest of us though, even after promising to do so. Now you might say that was deviously clever of him, but it was just annoying really and was one of the reasons I decided to break the NAP.
I owe you an apology there, Tomkat. I just couldn't figure out a way of publishing the details without giving away my host. However, I always passed on information (on request) to any members of the nap about which nicks belonged to which galaxies.

Having said that (and I know you'll not believe this), I didn't use those nicks for intel purposes. I made it quite clear that I was happy to accept fake nicks. I just wanted to be sure that all nicks (real or fake) added to the channel actually belonged to planets in the cluster.

It was a shame that you decided to break the nap - although you suffered the most. You ended up exiling out and the rest of 14:1 fell apart soon afterwards.

Ah well, there's always next round.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 17:47   #68
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

:crymeariver:
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 21:43   #69
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Oh dear Tomkat. "Seaton" is not very bright, and got his gal close to beeing roided. He is VGN HC, but I forgot his nick.

The real, working cluster nap in c14 is between a few gals, and "Seatons" galaxy isnt in it. Couse he is to shit to realise the potential of such a cluster alliance. He probably doesnt even know how do proper old skool cluster politics.
Well, well, well.

Let's start with a definition and an objective:

N.A.P. = Non Agression Pact. The purpose of which is to prevent hostile actions between its members.

Reason for setting up a cluster nap = to avoid in-cluster incomings which can't be defended by your (out of cluster) alliance mates.
================================================

Now let's take a look at a few statistics:

Total number of hostile fleets launched at my planet from in cluster = 8 (0 prior to PT 981)

Total number of hostile fleets launched at my planet from cluster nap members = 1 (0 prior to PT 1092)

Total number of hostile fleets landed on my planet from in cluster = 2

Total roids/ships lost to those hostile fleets = 0
================================================

Now.... please tell me again how "bright" I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
he is to shit to realise the potential of such a cluster alliance.
To quote Arthur Dent ... "Ah, abuse".

However, you seem to have missed the difference between a nap and an alliance. If I'd wanted a cluster alliance then I'd have formed one. Of course, I could have spent more time trying to get more out of this nap but I'm sure there was something else I needed to concentrate on. Now what was it....... ? Ah yes...... that's it......... helping my alliance to win the round.

Quote:
He probably doesnt even know how do proper old skool cluster politics.
I've played every round of PA except the first one. "Old skool cluster politics" are a thing of the past. Clusters are far too small to support the relentless bashing of the smaller galaxies that used to be the result of such "politics". Personally, I'm pleased that the cluster attack bonus has been removed for next round.

Anyway Zhukov, many thanks for sharing your "wisdom" with me. The next time I want an effective nap I'll be sure to give you a call.

Regards,

Amnion (ah yes - that was the name) - Vengeance HC.
Aka Seaton
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 21:52   #70
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Someone just pointed out how low the level is in todays Planetarion.

Sad really.

If PATeam doesnt want people to use the cluster, the -1 on def isnt enough, then they should remove the cluster alltogether.
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Unread 10 Aug 2007, 22:35   #71
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Someone just pointed out how low the level is in todays Planetarion.
LOL

Fairly predictable.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 10:48   #72
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I'm very much considering removing them, but I'd like feedback on the topic.
Appocomaster, you are one of the good guys. Of that there is no doubt. But you are not looking for feedback here. You gain that by the question posed elsewhere that clearly shows 50/50 split on the cluster ETA, you've come here to get affirmation on your already made decision, that being to implement what alliances want (Again.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I've been told that cluster alliances generally don't happen (apart from the standard cluster-wide NAP at the beginning of the round that falls apart). Top galaxies use this to use the other galaxies as farms and the other galaxies feel unable to respond*, and this isn't offset by the ETA gains.
When you have said this, I'm grinding my teeth again at PATeam bending over backwards to satisfy alliance scum. What you did not say in the above, and seem to have ignored in your considerations is that Alliances are the primary reason for cluster NAPs failing. I know of one Alliance which will remain nameless persuing a strategy of breaking up clusters by politics or other means. Having done so, now they come running to you to tell you that 'clusters don't work hahaha, lets get rid of them'. Alliances don't like clusters with -1ETA because it potentially makes their lives more difficult. So they persue politics to get rid of them, and remove one obstacle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Therefore, it either restricts you from 5% of the universe (9 galaxies or so) or causes you to be farmed. It also complicates any sort of defence rules about out of galaxy defence, and contributes to support planets.
No therefore. Every cluster this round was different, some broke into two or three groupings, others worked well, others worked badly. This is the nature of a co-operative game. It allows the players to choose the path, rather than having you, no offense, lock them down to the arbitrary alliance ass licking path, and only that path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I'd like to hear if this is a general feeling or if a minority has spoken out, thanks
Your own PORTAL gives you the feedback you said you need from here.
Your vote has been cast. The current results are shown below:

Lower Cluster ETAs, Good or Bad?
Love It
37.7%
Loathe It
36.6%
Whats an ETA?
25.5%
3047 votes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
*Bashar would be the first to point out that the other galaxies could and should get together and retal back, using the cluster ETA to their advantage
And while I hate myself for this, as I hate to agree with Bashar, he is 110% right. This round I saw NAP breaking punished, I saw clusters break into groupings and I saw some alliances go out of their way to break clusters for their own benefit. What happens to a cluster or in a cluster should be a game dynamic. You said that in this round, you believed it to be a great round with a battle that went to the last tick, and then you've come along and decided to rip out a chunk of the game that led to this.

I play this game in this order, as a Player, a gal member, a cluster member, and an alliance member. Roughly in that order.

As a Player, PA team spends its time bowing down to alliance whores who's primary concern is to further their own ends.
As a GAL Member, PA team spends its time bowing down to alliance whores who's primary concern is to further their own ends.
As a cluster Member, PA team spends its time bowing down to alliance whores who's primary concern is to further their own ends.
As an Alliance member, thanks, you're bending it over and taking it for us good guys. Thanks, we can go screw every other 'membership' in this game over and over, and make alliance 'play' the only method of playing.

So, I'll say it once, just for clarity. Quit shafting players, gals, and clusters to feed these alliance whores, making the game one dimensional, and making changes to satisfy alliance whores who come running your way after they spend a round breaking clusters up for their own ends.

The best thing that ever happened in PA was building the alliance structures in game, adding what players were doing outside the game, and adding a new brilliant layer for co-operative work and gameplay.
The worst thing that ever happened was bowing down to them and breaking up every other structure, method of play, galaxy size, clusters to satisfy the crying weasels that want their *alliance* to win at the cost of everything else, and want the game to be only an 'alliance' based game for their own ends.
The second worst was buddypacks, chunks of alliance throw in to wreck galaxies, or bend galaxies to the will of alliances, further wrecking other 'structures' in game to further alliances.

I will never put anything above my Galaxy, (and cluster if you quit screwing round) no matter how hard you try and shaft it, or us as players with alliance ass licking bullcrap.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 10:57   #73
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Good post
I agree with you totally on that
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 11:04   #74
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
I've played every round of PA except the first one. "Old skool cluster politics" are a thing of the past. Clusters are far too small to support the relentless bashing of the smaller galaxies that used to be the result of such "politics". Personally, I'm pleased that the cluster attack bonus has been removed for next round.
A/They are a thing of the past for YOU, because you have a 70 person structure that is your best vehicle for persuing your aims in the game. That is no reason for the game to go round eradicating every other structure and method of play.

B/Its up to the player base if they wish to persue some form of cluster alliance or politics, that's a decision and an action that should have nothing to do with you. The wide variance of what happened in clusters this round was enough to leave clusters in place to see how things go longer term.

C/Its in your interest to screw clusters, or any other structure in game, for the benefit of your alliance. Its also the exact basis and reason any comment you make on the subject should be rightly ignored (because your comment focuses on what benefits what you seek in game, and speaking plainly the elimination of cluster attack bonus and -1ETA suits you and alliances in general perfectly.)

Anything that screws alliances is patently good. As the biggest groupings and structures in the game, they should have the largest hurdles to overcome, not have every hurdle thrown out of the way at the cost of everyone but alliances.

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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 11:12   #75
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
I play this game in this order, as a Player, a gal member, a cluster member, and an alliance member. Roughly in that order.
Then you are very much the exception.


I always played the game as an alliance member first and foremost, then a player, then a galaxy member, then a cluster member. Where my galaxy was full of allies then they'd become as important as my own planet, but that wouldn't be the case if I went random and ended up in a neutral or hostile galaxy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
So, I'll say it once, just for clarity. Quit shafting players, gals, and clusters to feed these alliance whores, making the game one dimensional, and making changes to satisfy alliance whores who come running your way after they spend a round breaking clusters up for their own ends.
Harsh words.


The simple truth is that the vast majority of the active playerbase is a member of an alliance. Why? Because alliances are the only means of getting reliable defence when you have incoming. Further, they are a means for you to have more successful attacks than if you attack solo.


So who should PA Team be catering to? The maverick solo player who isn't part of an established alliance? Maybe not. Does that mean that PA Team should cater to the top 10 alliances? Absolutely not. PA Team should cater to the game itself, Planetarion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
No therefore. Every cluster this round was different, some broke into two or three groupings, others worked well, others worked badly. This is the nature of a co-operative game. It allows the players to choose the path, rather than having you, no offense, lock them down to the arbitrary alliance ass licking path, and only that path.
This realisation of yours - a truism but true nonetheless - contradicts the rest of your post. Every cluster works differently, and your earlier presumption that alliances will always carve up the cluster is a foolish one.

Where an alliance (and its allies) are weak in a cluster, it's logical for them to pursue a cluster NAP so that they can avoid as much incoming as possible.

Where an alliance (and its allies) are strong in a cluster, however, it makes logical sense for them to reap whatever profit they can from their cluster with the advantage of the -1 attack ETA, ruling out a lot of out-of-cluster defence. This is a war game and pressing home your advantage is how victories are won.


However, life is not so good for those who are not part of the dominating alliances' plans. Those in a weak galaxy will be used as roid farms (without their consent), a place where players in the bigger galaxies in that cluster can get easy roids. This is how it happened before clusters were eliminated, and it's how it works now. The basic laws of war have not changed.


Acceptance of this by PA Team is a great relief to many players and the elimination of the -1 attack ETA will relieve much of the burden on those who end up in weak galaxies.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 11:57   #76
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Then you are very much the exception.
No, I'm only an exception cos I come here and I bother to say it. Go look up the actual figures on how many players play and are not allied. (Example.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I always played the game as an alliance member first and foremost, then a player, then a galaxy member, then a cluster member. Where my galaxy was full of allies then they'd become as important as my own planet, but that wouldn't be the case if I went random and ended up in a neutral or hostile galaxy.
Firstly, you ain't playing are you? What did you hit me with last time, you quit in RD 16?
I'm not attacking your method of play. I don't agree with it (but so what!). But what I am saying is your are wholly entitled to play that way, where things go wrong is PA team change the game to make your method the only method, in a very one dimensional game. The alliances already have 70 members in the largest structure in game, thats enough bloody advantage thank you very very much. They don't need more thrown their way round after round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Harsh words.
Not harsh, just brutally honest feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
The simple truth is that the vast majority of the active playerbase is a member of an alliance. Why? Because alliances are the only means of getting reliable defence when you have incoming. Further, they are a means for you to have more successful attacks than if you attack solo.
No, the TRUTH is the game is so twisted now that to the largest method, players HAVE to be alliance members. That is not one in the same. Alliances are the only reliable method, because of a lot of crap thats been pulled. I recently suggested methods for attacking, ones that patently bring attacking back to where its a player thing, and you were amongst those shouting it down as soon as you've seen it. So yes, you've made a game where in reality, you have to wave people smaller in number than you (galaxies, clusters, inactives, other), usually by such bravery as huge waves from the 70 members structures, planned in number, overnight while your enemy sleeps. How very brave and clever of you. I don't think you need to sum up the whole wrong mindset and complete alliance whoriness better than this crap you just pitched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
So who should PA Team be catering to? The maverick solo player who isn't part of an established alliance? Maybe not. Does that mean that PA Team should cater to the top 10 alliances? Absolutely not. PA Team should cater to the game itself, Planetarion.
And what is that game? Is it a game for Players, Galaxies, Clusters, Alliances, and a rich tapestry of co-operation, war, and interesting activity, or is it going to be a desert where only large alliances swamp a tiny player base in ever smaller wars and numbers of players, in an ever tightening one dimensional game, while they scream 'noobs' at anyone new?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
This realisation of yours - a truism but true nonetheless - contradicts the rest of your post. Every cluster works differently, and your earlier presumption that alliances will always carve up the cluster is a foolish one.
Thats not what I said. I said I know of one Ally that went out of its way to persue every possible method to break up clusters for its own end. I did not say they won, because I can;t speak for all clusters or cater for what happened in each cluster, but I know they persued that aim. And it was an aim done to further their own ends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Where an alliance (and its allies) are weak in a cluster, it's logical for them to pursue a cluster NAP so that they can avoid as much incoming as possible.
Your Myopic vision is antagonising me. I don't know if you are doing this with blatant deliberate intention. Clusters are made up of Players, and Galaxies. They, if the game can stop being this alliance whoring bullcrap might like to follow some differing paths. Its called having an interesting and variable game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Where an alliance (and its allies) are strong in a cluster, however, it makes logical sense for them to reap whatever profit they can from their cluster with the advantage of the -1 attack ETA, ruling out a lot of out-of-cluster defence. This is a war game and pressing home your advantage is how victories are won.
Yes. Indeed. In this I agree with you. But this is exactly the deeper level of the game that we want. Clusters would then have to stand and fight, or die. Its part of a wider, tougher game. The lower ETA means that clusters might fight back, or alliances end up in a cluster war fighting for control. It ties into the 70 player limit quite well.
By removing the -ETA1, its cow towing to what alliances want. They want an easier ride. They should not be given it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
However, life is not so good for those who are not part of the dominating alliances' plans. Those in a weak galaxy will be used as roid farms (without their consent), a place where players in the bigger galaxies in that cluster can get easy roids. This is how it happened before clusters were eliminated, and it's how it works now. The basic laws of war have not changed.
I'm sorry, but thats really something players, galaxies and clusters really need to deal with. And if they don't, they will suffer. And its not a reason to cow-tow to what the alliances want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Acceptance of this by PA Team is a great relief to many players and the elimination of the -1 attack ETA will relieve much of the burden on those who end up in weak galaxies.
Galaxies are weak because of all the previous bending over for alliances, lets not mince our words. And now you advocate doing the same (again) to clusters. The *reason* this game is so twisted towards all this alliance only crap is because thats how its ended up being so, and its why the galaxies are weak, and why clusters don't work.

But tell you what. Anytime you want to try 70 player galaxies, and 12 player alliances we can talk about it again. You'll agree that galaxies is the way to go. If we twist the game so hard in any direction, it gets one very one dimensional.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 13:37   #77
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

I've played 3 and a half rounds of game similar to Planetarion completely solo, and it was extremely boring. It was not until I joined an alliance before I really started enjoying the game. This is a game that's most fun when you play in an alliance, it's as simple as that. This means that alliance players are the group of people that has the largest chance of sticking around for more than 1 round, so this is the group the administration should cater to. If this emphasis on alliance play doesn't suit your preference, this really isn't the game for you.

P.S.
For the love of god, write shorter posts. :S
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 13:59   #78
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

I like clusters but for the wrong reasons.

They are just way too powerful as it is, and someone who can control a cluster can really abuse that.

For example...

A couple of rounds ago I had 3 cluster channels for the same cluster. 1 cluster channel for everyone. 1 for everyone who I trusted and who had given me real nicks (I can't stand people fakenicking, if they cant trust me enough to tell me their real nicks in pm, they deserve to be roided) and one room for my alliance mates in my cluster.

Then we took defence from the other two rooms and didnt return it.

At the same time, I allowed mates to 'farm' the noobs in my cluster and I did the same to their cluster, collecting intel from the main channel.

Anyone who attacked in cluster was immedietly kicked out and killed, meaning no-one would step out of line.

The result in this meant I had extra defence for my gal, but gve none. I had a lot of easy targets. I probably ruined quite a few ppls rounds. I like the idea of cluster rooms to meet new people (for the newbies) but I don't think influential players within planetarion can be trusted to use them in a good way, and the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

I do like the idea of the 4:2 4:3 4:4, with the galaxy either side of you getting the time bonus for defence. This would increase co-operation within a smaller group, meaning newer players could keep track of what was happening easier and could learn from the better ones.
I think with this, you woudl need a galaxy shuffle at say tick 70, with galaxies being sorted into a large small large small large small large small kind of pattern to allow the smaller galaxies to ahve contact with the bigger ones.
I am not sure of the reprecusions of abusing this to ensure you had 3 big gals together.
A 4th fleet that could only be used to defend those two gals (but not your own, there is enough benfits there and the fleet would hinder noobs too much) may just be enough to make sure that alliances wanted there members to defend these gals and get defence back.

If going down the line of eta bonus for gal either side of you, it would need a seperate thread to discuss.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 14:13   #79
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

<"Old Skool cluster politics">

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
A/They are a thing of the past for YOU, because you have a 70 person structure that is your best vehicle for persuing your aims in the game. That is no reason for the game to go round eradicating every other structure and method of play.

B/Its up to the player base if they wish to persue some form of cluster alliance or politics, that's a decision and an action that should have nothing to do with you. The wide variance of what happened in clusters this round was enough to leave clusters in place to see how things go longer term.

C/Its in your interest to screw clusters, or any other structure in game, for the benefit of your alliance. Its also the exact basis and reason any comment you make on the subject should be rightly ignored (because your comment focuses on what benefits what you seek in game, and speaking plainly the elimination of cluster attack bonus and -1ETA suits you and alliances in general perfectly.)

Anything that screws alliances is patently good. As the biggest groupings and structures in the game, they should have the largest hurdles to overcome, not have every hurdle thrown out of the way at the cost of everyone but alliances.

Ad
A/ I believe they're a thing of the past because of the size of the player base. 70 (often relatively inactive) players being farmed by 3 "bully boy" galaxies isn't my idea of fun. It was bad enough back in the days when clusters had 25 galaxies - but at least then you could expect a night off from time to time.

B/ I agree with you there - to an extent. If people could be trusted to work with their cluster rather than seeing them as a source of easy roids then things would be better. Unfortunately, human nature doesn't seem to work that way - so removing the "easy roids" element seems to be a sensible step to take.

C/ It's never been my intention to "screw" any structure in this game. We play by the rules and with a sense of honour. For example, throughout this entire round, I have never attacked a planet smaller than mine. Bashing and farming are tactics which are totally alien to me - and I hope they always will be. You have a point in saying that the -1 cluster attack bonus works against alliances and that I have a vested interest in having them removed but I wasn't speaking from a purely selfish (alliance based) perspective. I know from first hand experience how soul-destroying it is to be in the "wrong" cluster.

Your final point, about making life harder for alliances, has some merit - but be careful of marginalising alliances altogether. How many long-term players would stay here if alliances ceased to be relevant?

Finally, your suggestion that all my opinions "on the subject should be rightly ignored" is a fairly clear statement that you have no intention of engaging in a serious discussion here. Everyone (even you) is entitled to express an opinion - and to have it taken into account.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 19:48   #80
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
<"Old Skool cluster politics">

A/ I believe they're a thing of the past because of the size of the player base. 70 (often relatively inactive) players being farmed by 3 "bully boy" galaxies isn't my idea of fun. It was bad enough back in the days when clusters had 25 galaxies - but at least then you could expect a night off from time to time.

B/ I agree with you there - to an extent. If people could be trusted to work with their cluster rather than seeing them as a source of easy roids then things would be better. Unfortunately, human nature doesn't seem to work that way - so removing the "easy roids" element seems to be a sensible step to take.

C/ It's never been my intention to "screw" any structure in this game. We play by the rules and with a sense of honour. For example, throughout this entire round, I have never attacked a planet smaller than mine. Bashing and farming are tactics which are totally alien to me - and I hope they always will be. You have a point in saying that the -1 cluster attack bonus works against alliances and that I have a vested interest in having them removed but I wasn't speaking from a purely selfish (alliance based) perspective. I know from first hand experience how soul-destroying it is to be in the "wrong" cluster.

Your final point, about making life harder for alliances, has some merit - but be careful of marginalising alliances altogether. How many long-term players would stay here if alliances ceased to be relevant?

Finally, your suggestion that all my opinions "on the subject should be rightly ignored" is a fairly clear statement that you have no intention of engaging in a serious discussion here. Everyone (even you) is entitled to express an opinion - and to have it taken into account.

Oh, no no, I don't want alliances marginalised to destruction. As I said, one of the best things ever to happen was to bring alliance structures, which players build outside the game inside the game. But since doing that, individual play, galactic play, cluster play, any other play bar alliance play is victimised.

Right now, the 70 man structures have all the plausable advantages to play and do well in the game. Damaging other structures merely to fit in with what alliances want, is flat out wrong. As I posted, the cluster ETA vote is actully a majority of yes, not no votes.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 19:56   #81
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I've played 3 and a half rounds of game similar to Planetarion completely solo, and it was extremely boring. It was not until I joined an alliance before I really started enjoying the game. This is a game that's most fun when you play in an alliance, it's as simple as that. This means that alliance players are the group of people that has the largest chance of sticking around for more than 1 round, so this is the group the administration should cater to. If this emphasis on alliance play doesn't suit your preference, this really isn't the game for you.

P.S.
For the love of god, write shorter posts. :S

OK, a short post for you.
1. You played solo, maybe you should try helping a gal out. Its a structure just like an alliance is, the same as a buddy pack is.
2. Playing in a galaxy can be fun, playing in a cluster could be fun too. Playing in alliances can be fun.
3. Since the slide to alliances, large alliances play, and quit. And have quit and quit and quit. You 2/3k player base does not inspire confidence in your wisdom about how this game should be developed. HINT, When someone new arrives, they don't know about alliances really, they are going to be hit by the 'noob' factor, alliances won't want them, galaxies don't work care of the wrecking of galaxies, same for clusters. Your view and that direction of game development is good for the ever shrinking pool of alliance 'noob-haters', but its pretty terrible for any long term idea of the game.

So, I'm going to keep coming here arguing for players, galaxies, clusters, and against further slides towards total alliance dominion.

You know, the game has player, galaxy, cluster ratings too. Its not just about your stinking alliances.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 21:35   #82
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Thanks.
1. I have helped out people in every single round that I've played, in every single game that I've played. I give new players advice on what to do and I defend them when my strategy allows it (which admittedly is not always the case). I exile them when they find the galaxy disappointing (which happened several times this round), and even after that I help them should they ask. I help people in my alliance, usually by explaining some of the finer details of the formulae (in this round mostly covert ops, but other stuff as well), whilst doing the same thing for my galaxy, and even for total strangers.
2a. I like playing with my galaxy, I like playing with my alliance. Clusters however I find too big and too diverse to manage. Generally I join to ensure I'm part of any cluster nap that's in place, and stop joining the cluster channel after a week or so. After that, I stick to the nap and prefer to let someone else represent the galaxy in any cluster talks, should it be needed.
2b. This is also why I utterly ignore cluster rankings, clusters are simply to large to manage in parallel to both my alliance and galaxy (which are the two entities that I play for, my own planet has never meant jackshit to me).
3. There are plenty of alliances out there that help new people train. F-Crew, ROCK, Orbit. Last round my galaxy recruited 3 newish players into Ascendancy, while we already had 2 or 3 completely new players in the buddypack (which I myself was not a part of, but this on a sidenote).
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 21:53   #83
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Remove em.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 23:02   #84
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
As I posted, the cluster ETA vote is actully a majority of yes, not no votes.
True - although an entirely separate poll (giving no "stupid" options) on whether to keep or remove the ETA bonus for attacking might give a different result.
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Unread 11 Aug 2007, 23:39   #85
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
True - although an entirely separate poll (giving no "stupid" options) on whether to keep or remove the ETA bonus for attacking might give a different result.
It might. But right now, PATeam are doing something a majority of players don't agree with in their own polling, and its no shock to see alliances chime in supporting what they persued in rounds. After all, its in their own interests.

Its hard to really see agreement with the underlying justification either. The whole round to me looks to have been competitive, tightly fought, and a variety of cluster action happened.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 18:42   #86
Bashar
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
*Bashar would be the first to point out that the other galaxies could and should get together and retal back, using the cluster ETA to their advantage
You can tell I'm hardly ever around now because I'd have jumped on you for this a lot quicker a couple of years ago!!

You are (yet again) not seeing the full point behind the arguments I used to put to you. It is not only a case that it's the responsibility of players to use the means available to them, but it is also the case (and a much more important case) that galaxies wanting to win don't want to risk the in-cluster attacks on them and so are more inclined to work with their clusters than they otherwise would, or worst case they are less inclined to be openly hostile, especially if they are the only friendly galaxy (with random galaxies it doesn't matter how many are friendly). Remove the ability for people to attack in-cluster at a lower eta and you will suddenly find that the big, evil, nasty, baby-eating, wife-beating, devil-worhsipping, daughter-raping galaxies (I think that's how the good galaxies are generally known) are much happier and much quicker to beat the shit out of their clusters.

If you give clusters a sting that could hurt large galaxies (which the ability to attack with much less opportunity for defence could), then whether or not it is used would often be irrelevant. Just having the potential is enough to make the larger galaxies hesitate to attack in-cluster.

I hope this explains my point sufficiently Appocomaster, because it is likely the last time I shall be making it.
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