User Name
Password

Go Back   Planetarion Forums > Planetarion Related Forums > Planetarion Suggestions

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 20 Jul 2009, 07:22   #1
Tatu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27
Tatu is an unknown quantity at this point
Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Suggestion

New mission types for fleets (also for base fleet) and more.
  • Alliance Defence
  • Galaxy Defence

Abbreviations

MOW = Minister of War
HC = High Commander
BC = Battle Commander
GC = Galactic Commander
ADef = Alliance Defence
GDef = Galaxy Defence


Description

ADef mission submits the control of the fleet to a BC.

The mission type is only available when fleet is at player's planet.

The mission lasts until next tick or until the player assigns the fleet another mission.

BC can move ships between fleets that both have ADef mission active and only between such fleets.

BC can order a new Defence or Fake Defence mission for a fleet on ADef mission. But not for the base fleet of course.

The fleet will assume the BC issued new mission when game ticks, only if fleet's current mission is still ADef. From there on the fleet is out of BC's control.

The BC issued mission is displayed to the player on Missions page under the mission selection controls.
Alliance Orders: Defend (1:1:1) Launch on PT 566 (+2) at 09:00
Alliance HC can also act as a BC to control ADef mission fleets.

The ADef mission fleets are displayed as a list on Alliance Defence page:
SHOWHIDE COORDS NICK FLEETNAME COUNT MISSION TARGET LAUCNHON REFUSED
Clicking on SHOWHIDE icon folds/unfolds list of ships on the fleet. Showing same clolumns as Missions page:
SHIP CLASS T1 T2 T3 TYPE COUNT
Clicking on FLEETNAME takes the BC to the member's Fleets page where BC can move ships between fleets. But only between fleets with ADef mission.

MISSION is a dropdown having missions: No Change, Defence, Fake Defence.

TARGET and LAUNCHON are the same controls as in Missions page.

REFUSED text is displayed on bold red when BC has given the fleet a mission, but player has changed mission type away from ADef.


Scenario
  1. A hostile fleet appears on Galaxy Status page.
  2. A galaxy member reports the hostile fleet.
  3. Some online alliance members notice Alliance has hostile incoming fleet notification.
  4. Those alliance members with idle fleets assign them on ADef mission.
  5. An alliance scanner views the alliance defence page and supplies scans of the hostile fleet.
  6. BC reads the scans and sets up a bcalc.
  7. BC looks for appropriate ships from available fleets and decides which fleets to use.
  8. BC moves ships about in some fleets and issues them a defence mission.
  9. Game ticks and fleets assume their BC issued missions.

Discuss

Whether to have separate ADef and GDef missions or a combined Guard mission which implies both.

Whether to allow longer duration than just until end of the tick.

Whether BC should be allowed to recall fleet.

Whether BC should be allowed to change his/her prelaunch mission.

Where MOW has access to GDef submitted fleet. The Politics page?

Whether to introduce new alliance role: Defence Commander for defence management.

Pros/Cons.
__________________
Tatu
Tatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 20 Jul 2009, 12:15   #2
Heartless
CRASHING BEATS 'N FANTASY
 
Heartless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cold Country.
Posts: 1,912
Heartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

And where would this improve the game? Why should this be implemented?
__________________
Ią! Ią! Munin F'tagn! - [*scendancy]
Heartless is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 20 Jul 2009, 12:16   #3
ellonweb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 401
ellonweb has a brilliant futureellonweb has a brilliant futureellonweb has a brilliant futureellonweb has a brilliant futureellonweb has a brilliant futureellonweb has a brilliant futureellonweb has a brilliant futureellonweb has a brilliant futureellonweb has a brilliant futureellonweb has a brilliant futureellonweb has a brilliant future
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

A huge part of this game is the community, i.e. communication between players. You'd be removing an irreplaceable quantity of the humanity of the game, a big no from me.
ellonweb is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 20 Jul 2009, 17:28   #4
Tatu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27
Tatu is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
A huge part of this game is the community, i.e. communication between players. You'd be removing an irreplaceable quantity of the humanity of the game, a big no from me.
I hear you what you say about community. But you could argue the same for the entire in-game alliance system. Maybe you did when alliances were introduced. I don't know.

The communication what this conserns is chat between alliance members pasting their ships in response to a DC spamming an IRC channel. And then DC telling the members coords and ETA to send. OK, that is sort of a communication. I would not mind having this replaced by an in-game mechanism.
__________________
Tatu
Tatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 20 Jul 2009, 17:33   #5
Tatu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27
Tatu is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
And where would this improve the game? Why should this be implemented?
Good questions.


The Goal

My goal, sorry I didn't spell it out in the original post, is to have a functional in-game alliance system.

I hope external tools are not mandatory for new alliances. Tools like: IRC, NetGamers, ircbots, defence databases and what not. Let those be an option when the alliance is ready to move on.

The current in-game alliance has one major shortcoming: no way to organize defence. Defence is the first and foremost thing new players seek in an alliance.

Currently the in-game defence is more of a blindfolded suicide mission than any help. That is should anyone be bothered to send any fleets at all.

I wish new players are encouraged to setup and join new alliances. And that those alliances can actually provide the bare minimum services. Without a huge investment on external tools.


Coverage

Organizing defence is not a simple task. It has lot of aspects I don't even care to list.

The system I proposed tries to provive the bare minimum with a moderate amount of development work (I guess).

It also has some hooks to provide less active players a better fighting chance against people hovering in IRC 24/7. It's game, not a lifestyle.
__________________
Tatu
Tatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 20 Jul 2009, 19:07   #6
Mzyxptlk
mz.
Alien Invasion Champion, Submarine Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Barts Watersports Adventure Champion
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

I think you're right that it's almost impossible to arrange defence using only ingame tools and that this is a bad thing. However, I'd prefer a solution that makes it easier to communicate rather than one that makes communication abstract and impersonal to the point that it might as well not exist.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Mzyxptlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jul 2009, 10:57   #7
Heartless
CRASHING BEATS 'N FANTASY
 
Heartless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cold Country.
Posts: 1,912
Heartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Not seeing any improvement of the game with this, so I don't think this is needed.
__________________
Ią! Ią! Munin F'tagn! - [*scendancy]
Heartless is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jul 2009, 12:27   #8
[B5]Londo
Paso Leaute
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 919
[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatu View Post
I wish new players are encouraged to setup and join new alliances. And that those alliances can actually provide the bare minimum services. Without a huge investment on external tools.
Does it shock you to learn that basically Ascendancy uses only in-game tools for def - yes munin provides a more awesome scan database than in-game, but the in-game one is adequate. All that is extra is IRC, and *shocker* there is an in game IRC already.

I dont want a situation where the defender dosent even need to be present to launch defences.

If I was adding a mission option all I would do is add an evade in order to allow the once a day login nubs to keep their fleets from being routinely crushed.

At least thats if we were not to go down the road of tactical mission assignments
__________________
An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?
[B5]Londo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jul 2009, 14:24   #9
Tatu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27
Tatu is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Does it shock you to learn that basically Ascendancy uses only in-game tools for def - yes munin provides a more awesome scan database than in-game, but the in-game one is adequate. All that is extra is IRC, and *shocker* there is an in game IRC already.
A bit yes. I trust you use a reactive fleet/ship collecting:
1. DC spams an IRC channel /notice #channel Defence Needed. Anti-FR/DE ETA 8. pm me
2. And then members copy paste their available ships to the DC who in turn tells the fleet composition and coords to send.

As opposed to proactive fleet/ship collecting:
1. Members copy-paste their Missions page into ircbot/website every tick.
2. DC uses a database query to list available fleets/ships, assigns them with the deftool.
3. ircbot reads the assignments and messages the member in question fleet composition and coords to send.

At least you no longer need to register 70 IRC channels each round for a relaybot to sit on and listen to defcalls. Thanks to in-game Report system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
I dont want a situation where the defender dosent even need to be present to launch defences.
I don't think anyone would like to have robot planets. I suggested the fleet control only lasts from the moment player sets the ADef mission until the game ticks. Less active players/alliances/galaxies could gain advantage by having longer duration for ADef mission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
If I was adding a mission option all I would do is add an evade in order to allow the once a day login nubs to keep their fleets from being routinely crushed.
There was discussion about that mission type on this forum. I don't see much downside for having one.
__________________
Tatu
Tatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jul 2009, 14:32   #10
Mzyxptlk
mz.
Alien Invasion Champion, Submarine Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Barts Watersports Adventure Champion
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Does it shock you to learn that basically Ascendancy uses only in-game tools for def - yes munin provides a more awesome scan database than in-game, but the in-game one is adequate. All that is extra is IRC, and *shocker* there is an in game IRC already.
This is blatantly untrue. We use the ingame tools to save information on defence. We use IRC to arrange it. You're making it seem like the ingame system is the main tool we use, but the reality is that if we had to choose between IRC and the ingame tools, we'd pick the former in a heart beat. This is a bad thing.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Mzyxptlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jul 2009, 14:34   #11
Heartless
CRASHING BEATS 'N FANTASY
 
Heartless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cold Country.
Posts: 1,912
Heartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHeartless is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatu View Post
A bit yes. I trust you use a reactive fleet/ship collecting:
1. DC spams an IRC channel /notice #channel Defence Needed. Anti-FR/DE ETA 8. pm me
2. And then members copy paste their available ships to the DC who in turn tells the fleet composition and coords to send.

As opposed to proactive fleet/ship collecting:
1. Members copy-paste their Missions page into ircbot/website every tick.
2. DC uses a database query to list available fleets/ships, assigns them with the deftool.
3. ircbot reads the assignments and messages the member in question fleet composition and coords to send.

At least you no longer need to register 70 IRC channels each round for a relaybot to sit on and listen to defcalls. Thanks to in-game Report system.
No problem with that part. As it does make sense to share fleet information within your alliance and a lot of alliances automate that already anyway. It does, however, take out one reason to communicate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatu View Post
I don't think anyone would like to have robot planets. I suggested the fleet control only lasts from the moment player sets the ADef mission until the game ticks. Less active players/alliances/galaxies could gain advantage by having longer duration for ADef mission.
This sounds pretty useless if it's only counting for exactly the tick it is set in and would then have to be set again after the tick. With the way it is proposed it only benefits more active players which manage to log in for the tick. Which in turn makes that kind of mission pretty useless because the people are around anyway.
Granted, as you say it could have a longer duration - but then you end up with remote control over planets. Which I do not oppose as a principle, but which I do not think should be added to the game in this way.
Instead you might want to consider some form of account sharing system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatu View Post
There was discussion about that mission type on this forum. I don't see much downside for having one.
There's no need to make this a mission, just make it the default behaviour for your base fleet. Which, as far as I remember, was pretty much the consensus when that topic was brought up. This is off-topic here though.
__________________
Ią! Ią! Munin F'tagn! - [*scendancy]
Heartless is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jul 2009, 14:47   #12
[B5]Londo
Paso Leaute
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 919
[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This is blatantly untrue. We use the ingame tools to save information on defence. We use IRC to arrange it. You're making it seem like the ingame system is the main tool we use, but the reality is that if we had to choose between IRC and the ingame tools, we'd pick the former in a heart beat. This is a bad thing.
Thats absolutely true, but I gathered that Tatu wanted everything provided, I was principally interested in demonstrating that everything is provided, since there is the comm unit and defence page to work in combination defence can be done properly "Without a huge investment on external tools." as he asked for. Since nobody reports their incs through munin any more we basically dont use anything that is not provided in game, even if i got the cart before the horse the whole vehicle is still there and capable of moving. The Comm unit is not specifically part of the defence tools but it is there.
__________________
An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?
[B5]Londo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jul 2009, 15:01   #13
Shev
So what?
 
Shev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 606
Shev is a splendid one to beholdShev is a splendid one to beholdShev is a splendid one to beholdShev is a splendid one to beholdShev is a splendid one to beholdShev is a splendid one to beholdShev is a splendid one to behold
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatu View Post
A bit yes. I trust you use a reactive fleet/ship collecting:
1. DC spams an IRC channel /notice #channel Defence Needed. Anti-FR/DE ETA 8. pm me
2. And then members copy paste their available ships to the DC who in turn tells the fleet composition and coords to send.

As opposed to proactive fleet/ship collecting:
1. Members copy-paste their Missions page into ircbot/website every tick.
2. DC uses a database query to list available fleets/ships, assigns them with the deftool.
3. ircbot reads the assignments and messages the member in question fleet composition and coords to send.
Ascendancy (and Apprime, I believe) are actually closer to the proactive model you list. We set our available defence ships and fleets on our ircbot - which can be searched by anyone doing a defence call. We then contact them via PM, SMS(also handled by the ircbot) or phone to relay messages on where to send fleet. Some work is still done via our irc channel, but /notices are frowned upon.
__________________
Legion

[RaH] [Mercenaries]
Shev is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jul 2009, 15:12   #14
[B5]Londo
Paso Leaute
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 919
[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of[B5]Londo has much to be proud of
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

how much have we seen any of that recently, Ive not been smsed for def since the middle of last round.

being able to see who has what fleets on the ingame system could be a great advantage without necessarily the power to give them orders.
__________________
An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?
[B5]Londo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jul 2009, 15:22   #15
Tatu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27
Tatu is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
Ascendancy (and Apprime, I believe) are actually closer to the proactive model you list. We set our available defence ships and fleets on our ircbot - which can be searched by anyone doing a defence call. We then contact them via PM, SMS(also handled by the ircbot) or phone to relay messages on where to send fleet. Some work is still done via our irc channel, but /notices are frowned upon.
That sounds really great.

My proposal doesn't cover any of the work of deciding which ships/fleets go where. But out of interest (bit off-topic I know):

Is the defence resource allocation automated in any way? Like having a tool to optimize for minimal roid losses (or for some other goal) and assigning fleets automatically?
__________________
Tatu
Tatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 22 Jul 2009, 01:21   #16
lilboi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 30
lilboi is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

No, in ascendancy defence is still done manually through the person doing the call. You cant really have an automated system because it takes out alot of human factors.
lilboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 22 Jul 2009, 03:04   #17
Tatu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27
Tatu is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Alliance/Galaxy Defence Mission

Summary

What we have learned in this thread is
  • That the ADef, GDef mission as suggested is bad because it reduces communication. I assume you meant human-to-human communication rather than interacting with external defence tools. (ellonweb, Mzyxptlk)
  • That this kind of system is not needed and no improvement to the game. (Heartless)
  • That account sharing system might be a better approach. (Heartless)
  • That making communications easier might be a better approach. I believe you meant human-to-human communication here, too. (Mzyxptlk)
  • That established alliances have similar and even better defence tools in use already. ([B5]Londo, Mzyxptlk, Shev)
  • That it still would be nice see available defence resources in an in-game system rather than in an external tool. ([B5]Londo)
  • That established alliance defence tools require very little, if any, human-to-human communications. (Shev)
  • That defence resource allocation mostly done by one person manually. There is no automated tool for it, yet. (lilboi)

Thanks for all the feedback so far, guys.

Slap me if you feel I put words in your mouth or left something essential out in this summary.
__________________
Tatu
Tatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 13:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018