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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:30   #1
JonnyBGood
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Reviewing Downtime Procedures

After another epic mishap in the journey that has been Planetarion so far this round maybe it's time to review the procedure in place.


Quote:
Scheduled downtimes

The community will be informed in advance via the portal, forums, topic of #planetarion and the MOTD. The game will be left as it is, no fleet recall, no donations, no rollbacks, etc. The game will restart at the same time it was taken down. In the event of extended downtime the round may be extended at the discretion of PATeam.
Can't see anything wrong here.

Quote:
Unscheduled downtimes

If only one tick or less is affected there will be no rollback.
So if the game goes down 10 minutes before the tick and comes back up ten minutes after there'd be no rollback? Very questionable at best.

Quote:
If the game is down for two ticks or more there will be a rollback to the last accessible tick, and there will be a full fleet recall. Ticks will restart 24 hours after the time of the last good backup to ensure all players in all timezones have a fair chance. The game will be inaccessible during the 24 hour period.
Rolling back seems fair here. Fleet recall is a horrific ad hoc deletion of the user created content that makes the game. Game inaccessible for 24 hours is okay with fleets recall, if no fleets recalled then access to cancel/send fleet missions would be required.

Quote:
Announcement of Unscheduled Downtime

In the event of any unscheduled downtime affecting two ticks or more a member of PATeam will make an announcement detailing when the game will restart and if possible explain the reasons for the downtime.

NetGamers Downtime

In the event of an extended period of downtime with the NetGamers service the PATeam may take the decision to halt ticks and close the game until NetGamers comes back online.
Rest of it seems fair.


I WOULD URGE YOU ALL TO DECIDE UPON A NEW DOWNTIME PROCEDURE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE GIVEN THE STAGGERINGLY HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF THE GAME DYING ON ITS ASS AGAIN WITHIN A FEW DAYS.

Also at this rate you're going to be serious damage to your paying playerbase for next round.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:33   #2
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Get rid of the fleet recall please
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:33   #3
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Without wanting to look like a 'QFT' post, please have a rethink of this procedure. Im not even that long into modern PA but at the moment it feels like PAT really dont pay any attention to the feedback of the community right now.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:35   #4
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Recalling fleets is the only thing i have a problem with. If they simply just roll back to the last accessable tick and leave the game open a few hours before tickstart then the problem is solved without recalling fleets.

this is so obvious that its getting more and more frustrating to see the downtime-procedure left like it is, and to us who spend a lot of time on the game, its like being pissed on.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:36   #5
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Considence View Post
Without wanting to look like a 'QFT' post, please have a rethink of this procedure. Im not even that long into modern PA but at the moment it feels like PAT really dont pay any attention to the feedback of the community right now.
You probably wouldn't be too far off there considering the total lack of response, or even acknowledgement, of a thread created on the forums specifically to discuss this issue over a month ago.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:37   #6
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

I just get tied of everything. My fleet has been recalled by the PAteam more times then by me.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:45   #7
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
1) downtime procedure (recalling fleets is just gay, specially if the game is still down for the next 24h)
solution: rollback to the last possible tick, stop ticks, keep game open, give everyone 24h to recall his fleets (if ppl still crash u canīt help it, but it will influence less ppl in the end compated to if u recall all fleets)
Quote taken from another post located here:
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...3&postcount=49
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:46   #8
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

I'd keep the fleet recall. When people make plans to land an attack, moving it to the next day could cause crashes simply because people didn't plan to log in.

What I don't get is this pissing around for 24 hours. Halt the ticker, roll back to the latest available update, recall all fleets and lets just get on with it. Open the game within 6 hours or 8pm game time, whichever is the earlier. All procedures will be imperfect, but to deny people a chance to attack in what will effectively be 2 days for late wave attackers is a bit of a kick in the teeth.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 17:59   #9
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

A solution to those who can't log in the next day is just keeping the game open for them to recall even whilst it's not ticking. Maybe the game can be open in a limited form where people can log on and only have the option of recalling fleets. In this circumstance giving people the option of changing fleet missions from "Attack" to "Fake Attack" (although not the other way around) might also be worthwhile in cases where people would usually stay to eta 1 and recall to tie up def but can't be online at eta 1 on the next day
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 18:25   #10
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

I would also urge PA Team to increase their communication with the community during these down times, everybody wants to know what's going on and it'd be a better use of your time to spend 5 minutes making some kind of short update (forums, portal, PAT blog?, linked to from the login page) on the situation than responding to (or ignoring) all the questions you get on IRC.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 18:45   #11
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
The only essential part of any procedure must be that any rollback is accompanied by a complete recall of all fleets. All other aspects can be negotiated - but not this one.

Why?

If a player has recalled his fleet then he has every right to expect it to be safe. A rollback means that his fleet is placed back into the position it was in before he decided to recall and it risks being completely destroyed. This is a far more serious outcome than any of the other (perfectly valid) scenarios that are being discussed at the moment.
Quoted from another of the interminable number of threads we've had on this subject.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 19:04   #12
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Quoted from another of the interminable number of threads we've had on this subject.
It is a valid point. However, would this not be solved if we where allowed, as suggested here, to do recall (if wanted) while the ticker is down?
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 19:44   #13
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

No - although that would help in some (possibly most) cases.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 19:46   #14
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
I'd keep the fleet recall. When people make plans to land an attack, moving it to the next day could cause crashes simply because people didn't plan to log in.
Completely disagree. Leave fleets flying, and OPEN the ****ing thing as soon as it is back up, with it ticking 24 hours after the downtime!

I remember the early rounds of PA, if it went down they went back to their last backup and started it again as and when, none of this 'oh no people might die, lets completely ignore what 99% of the playerbase want for the sake of 1% of inactives'.

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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 20:15   #15
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

First of all, I can with my hand on my heart admit that I was heavily involved in the creation of the standard downtime procedures. The system that was then was mostly being brought forward by heavy user influence via the #alliances channel, but also discussed by the PA team at a later stage. There IS a need for standard downtime procedures, so that everyone knows what will happen if the game goes down.

However, I think that a change of the downtime procedures CAN be made, but only as long as it is well documented why it needs to be changed, and also not a the ones who cry highest fest on the local happy messageboards.

Having a downtime procedure as a standard is an important thing for most users since it creates a system where one know what happens and can happily assume that this is the way its going to be IF the game goes down, but the content of the downtime procedure should be changed IF the community needs/wants it.

Get the PA team to put together a group of players that can come with feedback and/or recommended changes.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 21:21   #16
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Could PATeam maybe put a vote screen in that you come to after answering the login question, obviously its a 1time only screen for your first login after the game is opened back up.

Basically all it needs to ask is fleet recall or not? This way i'm guessing you catch the whole playerbase rather than just the forum readers.

Not sure if this is a feasable suggestion, just an idea.

Edit: Obviously this is for future downtimes not this one.

Re-Edit: What i mean is you answer the question now and the result stands for the remainder of this round and maybe a review done after round end to see how it worked out.

Last edited by ATRO; 13 Mar 2009 at 23:08.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 22:04   #17
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
No - although that would help in some (possibly most) cases.
The only people this will affect is the ones who doesnt notice the game has been stopped, and then doesnt even login before their fleets land on the following day. And i am willing to trade 50 players who "never" logs in to their account, then 1 player who quits the round because of being pissed on by the recalling of fleets every time.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 22:42   #18
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

[22:39:06] <@Tenko> i luv downtime
[22:42:04] <@Wishmaster> a sign that we should stop playing pa
[22:42:07] <@Wishmaster> when we love downtime
[22:42:08] <@Wishmaster>
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 23:04   #19
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^ View Post
Completely disagree. Leave fleets flying, and OPEN the ****ing thing as soon as it is back up, with it ticking 24 hours after the downtime!

I remember the early rounds of PA, if it went down they went back to their last backup and started it again as and when, none of this 'oh no people might die, lets completely ignore what 99% of the playerbase want for the sake of 1% of inactives'.

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Not capping roids doesn't ruin someone's round. Crashing a fleet pretty much can.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 23:13   #20
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

cant people choose preround if they wish their fleets to be recalled or not? And then, only be recalled in attacks ofc.
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 23:17   #21
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
cant people choose preround if they wish their fleets to be recalled or not? And then, only be recalled in attacks ofc.
Yeah, that's not a bad idea, my idea was just to clarify things for the remainder of this round.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 23:21   #22
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Consider this scenario:

You know you're going out of town tomorrow morning, so you keep your fleets home to enter vacation mode before you leave. But the game is down, so you can't. You get back just in time to see yourself on the top roided and top bashed lists.

Possible fixes?
1. Enter vacation mode the second you know you're going on a vacation, regardless of how distant in the future you'll be without access.
2. Stable servers.
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 23:30   #23
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by zebra View Post
2. Stable servers.
dont think we are gonna get that, PA is just a cash cow for fubra now, like we were for omac and jolt.

on subject... remove the recalling fleets... keep the game open for the 24 ticks after role back to recall themselves or enter vac mode, only stop people sending new fleet orders so people dont have 24hours to sort out def simple solution im surprise no one thought of this already, well actually im not
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Unread 13 Mar 2009, 23:43   #24
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by Teddy_Bear View Post
dont think we are gonna get that, PA is just a cash cow for fubra now, like we were for omac and jolt.

on subject... remove the recalling fleets... keep the game open for the 24 ticks after role back to recall themselves or enter vac mode, only stop people sending new fleet orders so people dont have 24hours to sort out def simple solution im surprise no one thought of this already, well actually im not
Heavily weighted in attackers favour though, whos to say the galaxy wouldn't have covered a wave and were holding back on sending their fleets?
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 00:19   #25
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by zebra View Post
2. Stable servers.
While this is a good preventive measure, it is useless in the event something does go wrong. 100% uptime is impossible, so there had better be something we can do when something goes wrong.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 00:36   #26
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by zebra View Post
Consider this scenario:

You know you're going out of town tomorrow morning, so you keep your fleets home to enter vacation mode before you leave. But the game is down, so you can't. You get back just in time to see yourself on the top roided and top bashed lists.

Possible fixes?
1. Enter vacation mode the second you know you're going on a vacation, regardless of how distant in the future you'll be without access.
2. Stable servers.
To be fair, you could have PMed an admin about it, I doubt they'd have had much of a problem with putting you in vac mode because you were unable to due to their fault
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 00:57   #27
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

You'd think that, yes. However, when the game went down today, and I asked #support to recall my fleet for me because I would be away for a few hours I couldn't get a conclusive answer out of them for the life of me.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 01:57   #28
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
To be fair, you could have PMed an admin about it, I doubt they'd have had much of a problem with putting you in vac mode because you were unable to due to their fault
You think PA admin are somehow more reliable or reasonable than the game servers? To be fair, it would have been worth a shot had I left myself more than 3 minutes to check email and PA.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 02:08   #29
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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You think PA admin are somehow more reliable or reasonable than the game servers? To be fair, it would have been worth a shot had I left myself more than 3 minutes to check email and PA.
I'm pretty sure that Appocomaster would have acquiesced, and Cin seems reasonable enough to do so too.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 05:36   #30
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Quote taken from another post located here:
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...3&postcount=49
lol bugz :'( this rollback is a good thing for you, free vacation time

offtopic etc, i was just looking forward to a lunch at my m8s place :'(

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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 09:16   #31
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
cant people choose preround if they wish their fleets to be recalled or not? And then, only be recalled in attacks ofc.
As posted in the thread on suggestion board:


Make a tick box on the preference page where you state that you want to be involved in any 'recall' action or not. This means that fleets to or from your planet will get recalled (and maybe to add the nicety a news item in each newspage would be included like : 'Due to a vibration in the universe, the Alpha fleet was ordered to return to base, all fleets approaching to your planet have been notified as well).

Now this can be abused during incs you set the preference and after it you remove it. So a delayed action of say 18 ticks (the maximum of PL's right?) would be in order as well as only having the opportunity to switch once every week? (10 days?)

This will split up the universe in 'hard' and 'softcore' planets. Moving the responsibility from fleetcrashes from the PA Team to the players. Only 'shitty' option here is defence. It should roll on based on the 'defended' planet and not based on the 'defending' planets preferences.

Also any alliance that thinks they will be on the receiving end of a 'raping' might encourage their players to set the setting to 'softcore' to maximize any downtime 'gains' but the signalling effect of such a message will do more morale damage then save value/roids I think.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 09:30   #32
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

not really relevant, but i think its +11
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 13:05   #33
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
lol bugz :'( this rollback is a good thing for you, free vacation time

offtopic etc, i was just looking forward to a lunch at my m8s place :'(

m00
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 17:31   #34
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

LEST WE FORGET

This is, I believe, four rollbacks so far - each with their own set of outcries of a reevaluation of the downtime policy. As far as I can tell, there has been no presence whatsoever of PA Team engaging the community on these forums. That would be only slightly less disconcerting if there were some evidence that the administrators of the game realized that downtime procedure is an issue and were engaging the issue in private.

For the love of Fubra Pete - can we not progress here? Can we not look at the rational alternatives to the whatthe****obviously irrational procedure in place? As awesome as I feel when I CALLED IT, I'd much rather have a decent procedure that stops wasting my goddamn time and effort organizing defense for incomings that 'poof!'ed after a rollback.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 17:51   #35
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Forgive me if i am wrong but wasnt this rollback procedure actually agreed on by over 3 quaters of the PA community for it to be put in place in the first place?
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 18:18   #36
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

It seems like it was agreed on by the self important faggots who sit in #alliances and think everything in PA needs to be kept a secret to make themselves feel important!
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 18:19   #37
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Even if it was agreed on then. This is now, this procedure need to be reviewed!
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 18:51   #38
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
It seems like it was agreed on by the self important faggots who sit in #alliances and think everything in PA needs to be kept a secret to make themselves feel important!
I still dont understand who came up with the idea of #alliances, Why do they get a say in how PA is developed? Alliances arnt political parties where we all joined together as we have the same views on how PA should be run with our HC's as our elected spokesperson.

Im in Omen and i really dont care what changes Wishmaster would like to see in Planetarion, nor do we ever have meetings where we discuss future changes to Planetarion. So why should his opinion be above everyone elses?

Why is development changes kept secret? and then why are alliance HC's consulted about changes? As if they wont be biased or only want changes which benefit there alliance.

Or we could look at it this way, We've let the "ego's" of planetarion have preferential treatment in the way Planetarion is developed and the rules within it.. and look where its got Planetarion? no-where.. So why not change that now and open up and discuss things in public with the (as much as possible) unbiased PA Team making the final decision.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 18:58   #39
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I still dont understand who came up with the idea of #alliances, Why do they get a say in how PA is developed? Alliances arnt political parties where we all joined together as we have the same views on how PA should be run with our HC's as our elected spokesperson.

Im in Omen and i really dont care what changes Wishmaster would like to see in Planetarion, nor do we ever have meetings where we discuss future changes to Planetarion. So why should his opinion be above everyone elses?

Why is development changes kept secret? and then why are alliance HC's consulted about changes? As if they wont be biased or only want changes which benefit there alliance.

Or we could look at it this way, We've let the "ego's" of planetarion have preferential treatment in the way Planetarion is developed and the rules within it.. and look where its got Planetarion? no-where.. So why not change that now and open up and discuss things in public with the (as much as possible) unbiased PA Team making the final decision.
if theres any comfort in it for you: I dont give a flying **** about #alliances I am not even added, nor would I bother idling there with a bunch of retards anyway.
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 19:21   #40
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
Forgive me if i am wrong but wasnt this rollback procedure actually agreed on by over 3 quaters of the PA community for it to be put in place in the first place?
Maybe people didn't consider it would happen 4+ times a round.
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Unread 14 Mar 2009, 19:28   #41
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
Forgive me if i am wrong but wasnt this rollback procedure actually agreed on by over 3 quaters of the PA community for it to be put in place in the first place?
If that's really the case, then we should no longer be allowed to change it. Ever.
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Unread 15 Mar 2009, 11:27   #42
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I still dont understand who came up with the idea of #alliances, Why do they get a say in how PA is developed? Alliances arnt political parties where we all joined together as we have the same views on how PA should be run with our HC's as our elected spokesperson.

Im in Omen and i really dont care what changes Wishmaster would like to see in Planetarion, nor do we ever have meetings where we discuss future changes to Planetarion. So why should his opinion be above everyone elses?

Why is development changes kept secret? and then why are alliance HC's consulted about changes? As if they wont be biased or only want changes which benefit there alliance.

Or we could look at it this way, We've let the "ego's" of planetarion have preferential treatment in the way Planetarion is developed and the rules within it.. and look where its got Planetarion? no-where.. So why not change that now and open up and discuss things in public with the (as much as possible) unbiased PA Team making the final decision.
Although i dont agree with of course that channel as to me when ever i was either a HC or of course PA Team i never saw much happen within it.

But to argue this fact only alliance representatives should be part of this channel (ie should be people with some sort of knoweldge on how PA works and people eleected with brains to help the game grow) So usally speaking about changes in the game with them is more beneficial say then putting it up for a vote on these forums where you will never get anyone agree. (Just to many appinions)

But to quote regarding yourself and omen, you joined the alliance fora reason correct? So you put your faith and trust in your own HC team to run the alliance your part off, otherwise you wouldnt join there surely? So now why wouldnt you put trust in them to make the right choices in the channel #alliances for PA's future? Of course wish has already said there isny an omen rep in there anyway but just using that as an example.


The whole point i presume of that channel though was tohave representivies from alliances voted by those alliances which would put accross an honest and produtive appinion toward PA Team on changes to be made. Somewhere down the line thats most likely been lost.
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Unread 15 Mar 2009, 13:42   #43
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

running an alliance succesfully (or not)
and developing the game and its future setup
has N O T H I N G to do with each other FULLSTOP
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Unread 15 Mar 2009, 13:49   #44
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

Hey M0rph3us you're being exiled
Quote:
An exile vote against proud has been started.
!!!!
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Unread 15 Mar 2009, 13:58   #45
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Hey M0rph3us you're being exiled

!!!!
cool, i can idle in c200 the rest of the round then
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Unread 15 Mar 2009, 14:34   #46
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
running an alliance succesfully (or not)
and developing the game and its future setup
has N O T H I N G to do with each other FULLSTOP
So when you run an alliance successfully say you use great tactics and of course a good understanding on what is needed to win the game over other alliances and this doesnt class you as the same criteria to have a voice on how you could improve things? This is what i am getting at.
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Unread 15 Mar 2009, 14:42   #47
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
... use great tactics ... good understanding on what is needed to win the game
Majority of HCs lack these skills.
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Unread 15 Mar 2009, 14:45   #48
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
So when you run an alliance successfully say you use great tactics and of course a good understanding on what is needed to win the game over other alliances and this doesnt class you as the same criteria to have a voice on how you could improve things? This is what i am getting at.
Correct. Being good at a game has zero to do with being able to improve a game. There might be people who are both good at the game and know about game design, but there is little to no correlation between the two.
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Unread 15 Mar 2009, 14:52   #49
M0RPH3US
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Re: Reviewing Downtime Procedures

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
So when you run an alliance successfully say you use great tactics and of course a good understanding on what is needed to win the game over other alliances and this doesnt class you as the same criteria to have a voice on how you could improve things? This is what i am getting at.
i donīt think it has to do with each other (not saying ppl leading an alliance are not able to be good developers, but it doesnt come naturally with things)

plus in a wider range of things, some hc may (i dont say they are) be biased with some changes made to the game, as it will either benefit their form of alliance play or not

as an exampel:
priv gals have been turned down by #alliances (as i can read it on the forums, i got no proove its the truth ofc, as i am not sittin in that channel)

so why those gals have been turned down?
cause it will lead to a lot of top gals and new ppl wouldnt be mixed up with old ppl and the game would be stagnating?
or
cause some alliance hcīs are afraid of a lot of their top players putting gal above alliance?

the exampel isnt referring to a point where #alliances failed
it just shows the wider range of problems which occur with game developing issues influenced by alliance hcīs
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