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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 21:52   #51
JonnyBGood
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
Maybe they don't need to. Maybe they only need to see the block concentrating on Asc, and add some members for the last mile needed to win. There are a couple of now unallied players sitting in top gals gathering score.
Maybe they'd rather see the alliances that have been hostile to them all round get the shit beaten out of them. Would adding a few random planets to tag mean anything at all?

I think you're missing the point of how a block actually wins a round as opposed to a particular alliance. Who the hell cares about which alliance managed to accumulate more score. It's about combined domination of the universe and total decimation of your opposition.

Really it's pretty similar to r31. They don't hate each other. They hate you.
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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 21:59   #52
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Maybe they'd rather see the alliances that have been hostile to them all round get the shit beaten out of them. Would adding a few random planets to tag mean anything at all?

I think you're missing the point of how a block actually wins a round as opposed to a particular alliance. Who the hell cares about which alliance managed to accumulate more score. It's about combined domination of the universe and total decimation of your opposition.

Really it's pretty similar to r31. They don't hate each other. They hate you.
Oh, in that case, looking at sandmans score:
Code:
Asc   152m
App   143m
Vsn   129m
----------
TOTAL 424m

vs

ND    149m
CT    142m
Euph  129m
Subh  124m
DLR   123m
----------
TOTAL 667m
Hey, we're winning
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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 22:06   #53
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Who the hell cares about which alliance managed to accumulate more score. It's about combined domination of the universe and total decimation of your opposition.
I'll even simplify it for you.

It's about domination of the universe and decimation of your opposition, it's not about score.

You do understand all those words right? Here are a bunch of significant factors for you. Number of t10/20/50/100/200 planets, especially vis-a-vis your opposition. Control of t10/20 galaxies. Ability to roid your opposition. Ability to hold your own roids.
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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 22:10   #54
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Re: Round 34 officially over

http://www.sandmans.co.uk/graphcompa...mpare7=apprime

Hitting vsn was clearly the best move of the round...
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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 22:16   #55
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Wow. I mean wow. I mean words fail me. I don't think ND would have won anyways but pretending that hitting a random fat alliance in the other block is no different to hitting the leading alliance in terms of helping the leading alliance in your own block is just outright retarded.

I'll help spell it out for you. By hitting an alliance you're more likely to curtail their score growth than you are by not hitting them. Curtailing an alliance's score growth means its competitors do better relatively speaking.
No, let me spell it out for you. We were giving Ascendancy similar roidloss %s to those ND were taking. ND were the only remaining contender to Ascendancy and Apprime. Whilst Ascendancy and ND took 5% or so roidloss, Apprime grows 6-7%. If we switch to Apprime Asc/Apprime roid gain/loss switches around. The ONLY remaining option that leaves ND with a shot is have Vision withdraw from hitting ND so they can take less losses and possibly gain on the alliance we hit. Now as it turns out Vision are not going to withdraw so it doesn't look so clever but I consider this a no worse position than we were in before.

I did see you made one other suggestion for a plan of action - let Vision decide to balance it out in 3-4 days. I'm not even going to explain why this was never going to happen cause if you can't see it yourself you must have brain aids (amidoingthisrite?).

More to come when I get back in!

Oh for what it's worth I do acknowledge our previous politics could have been better but I'm talking about what we decided to do 3 days ago not 2 weeks ago for now.
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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 22:22   #56
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Considering that the top 2 alliances in avg score are not Asc or Apprime at the moment, i would say that DLR and Euphoria have quite a few planets in the top 10/20/whatever, ND has also some, and even Subh has some, i am not sure how you would claim domination on that department.
Regarding the ability to roid the opposition, i think it was never disputed that App and Asc are the uncontested winners in here, block or not.
Regarding the ability to hold on to roids, Vsn is doing a bad job of holding to their own, and it has been shown that Apprime can't hold to their roids either when targetted by the block.
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Last edited by Gio2k; 2 Dec 2009 at 22:26. Reason: DLR -> ND
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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 22:33   #57
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
No, let me spell it out for you. We were giving Ascendancy similar roidloss %s to those ND were taking. ND were the only remaining contender to Ascendancy and Apprime. Whilst Ascendancy and ND took 5% or so roidloss, Apprime grows 6-7%. If we switch to Apprime Asc/Apprime roid gain/loss switches around. The ONLY remaining option that leaves ND with a shot is have Vision withdraw from hitting ND so they can take less losses and possibly gain on the alliance we hit. Now as it turns out Vision are not going to withdraw so it doesn't look so clever but I consider this a no worse position than we were in before.
No, it's definitely a worse position. If you'd hit Ascendancy they'd have less roids and less value (which they'll use better than vision) and ND would unquestionably be closer scorewise. Maybe you think this isn't a worse position but the concept of counting probably disagrees.
Quote:
I did see you made one other suggestion for a plan of action - let Vision decide to balance it out in 3-4 days. I'm not even going to explain why this was never going to happen cause if you can't see it yourself you must have brain aids (amidoingthisrite?).
Yeah, I sure forgot about ascendancy's wild popularity in Vision. My bad. Although frankly considering politics is the art of the possible, and given the staggering incompetence and downright idiocy demonstrated by a lot of people in nearly even fact of the game, over a considerable period of time, you're probably right about the sheer hopelessness of your case there.

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More to come when I get back in!
Please don't.

Quote:
Oh for what it's worth I do acknowledge our previous politics could have been better but I'm talking about what we decided to do 3 days ago not 2 weeks ago for now.
And that's why you're losing. More to the point that's why I don't think anyone on your side on the block has won, or really even come close, since those who make up the other side started to vaguely give a shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Considering that the top 2 alliances in avg score are not Asc or Apprime at the moment, i would say that DLR and Euphoria have quite a few planets in the top 10/20/whatever, DLR has also some, and even Subh has some, i am not sure how you would claim domination on that department.
Nobody would claim domination yet. Still over 2 weeks to go in the round though isn't there? The round has barely even been decided and it's still not unthinkable that things could change.
Quote:
Regarding the ability to roid the opposition, i think it was never disputed that App and Asc are the uncontested winners in here, block or not.
Regarding the ability to hold on to roids, Vsn is doing a bad job of holding to their own, and it has been shown that Apprime can't hold to their roids either when targetted by the block.
In this case it's relative success that matters. Equally it's still early days. Nobody measures who won the round at pt 750 or whatever the **** we're at.
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Last edited by JonnyBGood; 2 Dec 2009 at 22:40.
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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 22:43   #58
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Well, in that case, i guess we'll see which block wins. From my perspective, if it really is a block vs block thing, Asc and App can't win. One of them can win top alliance, but blockwise they are way too outgunned.

But hey, i have been wrong before
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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 22:46   #59
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
Well, in that case, i guess we'll see which block wins. From my perspective, if it really is a block vs block thing, Asc and App can't win. One of them can win top alliance, but blockwise they are way too outgunned.

But hey, i have been wrong before
It's a combination of a lot of factors none of which are particularly key in their own right. It's fairly obvious to all concerned who's winning right now though. We managed to decide these things pre-PAX without drooling retards claiming an alliance of 20000 newbies was really ahead of furgion but hey, everyone's free to have an opinion I guess!
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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 23:30   #60
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Re: Round 34 officially over

I wonder where in the bottom Asc would have ended without me.
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Unread 2 Dec 2009, 23:59   #61
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Re: Round 34 officially over

So when did PA stop being a game of tag score accumulation and start being a game of arbitrary block war winners? This thread is steaming.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 00:05   #62
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Personally I've never thought it's just about who finished the round with the most score intag. First and foremost pa is a war game and sometimes war games just don't work that way. The fact someone tried to jam in the idea that it's actually a race of some sort rather misses the point.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 00:23   #63
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Re: Round 34 officially over

PA is a game about whatever JBG wants it to be on this forum zebra, he's like some kind of forum Jesus don't you know?

For what it's worth though JBG, I'll accept that now Vision haven't backed down the decision doesn't look too clever and we're in a (very slightly) worse position than we would have been hitting Ascendancy the last 2 nights. My first post wasn't very well written and I apologise. Do you want to actually argue the meat of it though or was that all you had?

However the point of my post was that hitting Ascendancy was getting us nowhere anyway. Even if ND overtook them again Apprime would be growing unchecked and would win it easily. Trying to remove some of your blocks fire power to try and reduce NDs roidloss was the only real option. In the end it didn't work but continuing a losing strategy is not my way of playing, sorry.

Quote:
Yeah, I sure forgot about ascendancy's wild popularity in Vision. My bad. Although frankly considering politics is the art of the possible, and given the staggering incompetence and downright idiocy demonstrated by a lot of people in nearly even fact of the game, over a considerable period of time, you're probably right about the sheer hopelessness of your case there.
Oh so you're saying that in 3-4 days Apprime would suddenly decide that they don't want to dominate the universe, get as many top planets and gals as possible (despite that being what it's all about) and hit you with Vision and the block? Make up your ****ing mind.

Or alternatively are you saying Vision would stop working with Apprime after a round long co-operation and decide they'd waste their top planets by drawing the attention of Ascendancy by hitting them with the block? Yeah, that sounds about right on second thoughts, we're idiots not to have planned for that.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 00:45   #64
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Score is not always the most accurate indicator of success. For example, when Apprime last won in round 32, it was Ascendancy who arguably had the greatest influence over the game and ended up dominating the round. Most of the time if you dominate, the score takes care of itself. In round 32 the issue was that Ascendancy just didn't have enough players to get the sufficient number of asteroids to start catching Apprime in score terms.

I'm really enjoying this debate, by the way. What the **** possessed you all to put the two best alliances by quite a margin in a position where they co-operate with each other. Do you want to lose or something? No wonder wherever you target is just leading you up a blind alley. The best way to prosper is to play the better alliances off one another and take advantage. As it stands, Apprime and Ascendancy won't be defeated militarily, it will just be a question of which alliance comes out first or second. Great.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 00:48   #65
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
PA is a game about whatever JBG wants it to be on this forum zebra, he's like some kind of forum Jesus don't you know?
No need for the adjective my good man, Joshua bar-Joseph will do.

Quote:
For what it's worth though JBG, I'll accept that now Vision haven't backed down the decision doesn't look too clever and we're in a (very slightly) worse position than we would have been hitting Ascendancy the last 2 nights. My first post wasn't very well written and I apologise. Do you want to actually argue the meat of it though or was that all you had?

However the point of my post was that hitting Ascendancy was getting us nowhere anyway. Even if ND overtook them again Apprime would be growing unchecked and would win it easily. Trying to remove some of your blocks fire power to try and reduce NDs roidloss was the only real option. In the end it didn't work but continuing a losing strategy is not my way of playing, sorry.
I don't think any brute-force strategy was/is likely to work at this stage (which is why I've been saying for a few days that I think the round is virtually all over bar the crying). Possibly something decidedly unconventional like xp escorting ND planets onto apprime/ascendancy (I wouldn't go for this myself but it's the first thing that sprang to mind as illustrative of the sort of thinking I believe is needed) would be helpful or at least give you something to attempt. Bottom line what has happened so far this round has led to this situation where 3 alliances, including the two best ones, want nothing to do with you. It's not a political situation you can change by beating someone up. To be honest I really struggle to think of a single time hitting someone has actually made them change sides in a block war. People just straight up don't like looking like someone else's gimp.

Quote:
Oh so you're saying that in 3-4 days Apprime would suddenly decide that they don't want to dominate the universe, get as many top planets and gals as possible (despite that being what it's all about) and hit you with Vision and the block? Make up your ****ing mind.
Ignoring the fact that I'm not in ascendancy I wasn't talking about apprime at all.

For the record I think they dislike you far more than they desire the #1 ranking this round. I don't blame them either. DLR and Euphoria just look they manipulated the block as long as possible in order to preserve their own planet ranks and avoid as much incoming as they could. Maybe that wasn't your original intention and it just sort of happened, maybe it didn't happen at all and just looks that way. Either way I'm pretty sure they're not your biggest fans.

Quote:
Or alternatively are you saying Vision would stop working with Apprime after a round long co-operation and decide they'd waste their top planets by drawing the attention of Ascendancy by hitting them with the block? Yeah, that sounds about right on second thoughts, we're idiots not to have planned for that.
You appear to have missed my "frankly..". Either that or mistook it for sarcasm. Having thought about the issue I decided that given the extraordinary lack of foresight and intelligence that seems to characterise your block it probably was likely enough that Vision wouldn't help you. Either way I give Ascendancy enough credit to outsmart you on whatever half-assed plan you managed to come up with but personally I doubt they would have (with less than 2 weeks left in the round) wasted their time hitting vsn's big planets as opposed to the hostile alliance closest to them in the rankings. It would indeed be unlikely that Vision give up on a round-long co-operation with Apprime at this point but I wouldn't exactly think of it as staggeringly unlikely compared to the chance of them changing sides because you decided to target them. You get more flies with honey than vinegar I've heard. To me threat-based politics just smack of a total lack of imagination. Anyone you expects them to work, especially in the short-term, just doesn't understand human nature.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 00:49   #66
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
Or alternatively are you saying Vision would stop working with Apprime after a round long co-operation and decide they'd waste their top planets by drawing the attention of Ascendancy by hitting them with the block? Yeah, that sounds about right on second thoughts, we're idiots not to have planned for that.
But you did plan for it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
Yes, we'd hoped Vision would be more readily persuaded by the first night of incs and would have accepted our NAP offer last night (it was on the table for anyone who cares) but even without it the small chance of an ND win hasn't really been effected by the events of the last 2 nights and if VisioN had taken the NAP we'd be in a stronger position.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 00:51   #67
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Re: Round 34 officially over

I had a good giggle reading Gio2k and Byrney's posts, thanks guys!
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 00:52   #68
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Re: Round 34 officially over

The reality is that by spending two days hitting Vsn you've allowed Apprime and Asc to regain their roids which they will turn into value. Value which will be used far more efficiently than Vsn ever would (no offence Vsn guys!).

As for saying you inflict the same roidloss on Asc as you did on Vsn thats ludicrous. In the 4 days in a row Asc was hit you guys inflicted 5%, 5%, 0.7% and 2% roidloss. In two days on Vsn you inflicted 13.9% and 14.7% roidloss. I'm also guessing you guys didn't crash into as much defence on Vsn planets as you did on Asc (or apprime earlier on). The amount of stupid crashes this round is quite amazing and your block has been responsible for the vast majority of them. If anything its these crashes which has kept morale high in App and Asc and made us understand that we can beat you guys.

You guys might have had a gazillion reasons to hit Vsn, but none of them were smart and it was the wrong move. You may not recognise it now but you will in a few days.

Lastly, anyone hoping Asc will turn on App or App will turn on Asc whilst there is even one iota of life left in Euphoria or DLR is kidding themselves. At this point baring some extraterrestrial catastrophe its unlikely anyone other than Asc or App will take the round win, the vast majority of those in both alliances (including those running the politics) are not overly concerned about which alliance wins, we're focused on delivering a knockout blow to this block. So Euph/DLR, you better win because there is no political way out.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 00:58   #69
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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As for saying you inflict the same roidloss on Asc as you did on Vsn thats ludicrous.
In fairness I think on this point he meant Ascendancy were suffering similar roidlosses to ND when targeted by the block.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:15   #70
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Wrong Mz, we were never under the illusion Vision would flat out change sides, we did hope they would just go back to galraiding to keep their top planets intact. We obviously miscalculated their intentions but whatever.

I'm not going to keep explaining my point cause I'm sure anyone intelligent reading understands it anyway.

For the record, our block was formed when it became clear the Ascendancy and Apprime were under no real threat and would clearly dominate the round if left unchecked. Perhaps we should have spoken to the allies in question and developed another strategy but that's a moot point at this stage.

I'm glad a logical post explaining in detail our thought process makes you laugh ellonweb, tell me, what would you have done in the situation? It seems obvious this was the wrong choice (everyone is telling me that here) but I'm not seeing anyone with any other valid suggestions, perhaps JBG excluded but even his ideas or somewhat lacking here. Or do you all just let him argue for you?
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:23   #71
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Turtle get real. Don't pretend you ever thought this wasn't a winnable fight. Your block isn't that badly outnumbered for starters, Apprime/Ascendancy/HR/ASS/Vision isn't a small force, especially since the 2 best alliances are in it.

As for your second paragraph I think you misunderstood me, but lets be realistic. I don't think anybody seriously gave ND a chance even if the block continued to hit Ascendancy so at that point what did we have to lose? If there was even a 1% chance Vision went back to galraiding it was worth hitting them because the reduced firepower might have meant ND could outgrow Ascendancy when both alliances had big incs. Even in that situation they'd have been underdogs though.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:24   #72
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Re: Round 34 officially over

There is only 1 alliance winning, block winner means nothing. Maybe VSN thinks that by siding with the winning alliance they will share the glory... that's naive and mistaken. App will go for the win and there ought to be a confrontation with Asc at some point... it will be interesting to watch, and hopefully take part ? With who VSN will side then ? (I think they'll probably give some moral statement to justify them staying away from the final battle).
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:29   #73
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
Wrong Mz, we were never under the illusion Vision would flat out change sides, we did hope they would just go back to galraiding to keep their top planets intact. We obviously miscalculated their intentions but whatever.

I'm not going to keep explaining my point cause I'm sure anyone intelligent reading understands it anyway.
I'm pretty sure there are cold readers out there who wouldn't dare to claim they have a clue what your point is. Currently I'm digging that even though you think it's laughable that Vision might change sides in order to stop Ascendancy winning (or for any other reason bar getting hit) you thought your best possible strategy was to hit them and hope they'd back down. Let me put it this way. If Apprime and Ascendancy ptargeted DLR and said "leave the block and go back to gal raiding yo" would you have gone along with that?

Quote:
For the record, our block was formed when it became clear the Ascendancy and Apprime were under no real threat and would clearly dominate the round if left unchecked. Perhaps we should have spoken to the allies in question and developed another strategy but that's a moot point at this stage.
It's not really any more "moot" than the issues over hitting Vision are. Thinking that it is probably explains a lot about why a lot of people seem to make the same mistakes round after round after round after...

Quote:
It seems obvious this was the wrong choice (everyone is telling me that here) but I'm not seeing anyone with any other valid suggestions, perhaps JBG excluded but even his ideas or somewhat lacking here.
That they most certainly are, even I was bothering to think of alternatives (which I'm not) and even if I came up with a couple of good ones (no sure thing there but I've got an okay track record!) I don't think I'd give them out to people whose idea of strategy consists solely of outnumbering the other guy.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:30   #74
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by Turtle View Post
Lastly, anyone hoping Asc will turn on App or App will turn on Asc whilst there is even one iota of life left in Euphoria or DLR is kidding themselves. At this point baring some extraterrestrial catastrophe its unlikely anyone other than Asc or App will take the round win, the vast majority of those in both alliances (including those running the politics) are not overly concerned about which alliance wins, we're focused on delivering a knockout blow to this block. So Euph/DLR, you better win because there is no political way out.
i would honestly like to differ. I bet cardi is already preparing his EORC speech and i am also pretty confident he is willing to step on whoevers toes he has to to get to spill forth the aforementioned speech.

I think this is the point where ego's come into play when you have asc and app both in a position to secure the round win. just who has the biggest collective ego is the question?
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:39   #75
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Quote:
Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
Turtle get real. Don't pretend you ever thought this wasn't a winnable fight. Your block isn't that badly outnumbered for starters, Apprime/Ascendancy/HR/ASS/Vision isn't a small force, especially since the 2 best alliances are in it.
This is certainly the first time I've heard anyone even suggest HR and ASS were involved in this war. To be honest I'm going to assume this is just total horseshit that you either made up completely to justify your position, you have no idea what targeting actually looks like (which given that I just newsied a few planets from each alliance is pretty true) or you've totally forgotten that alliances like that are pretty unlikely to hit the big gals (where ascendancy and apprime have most of their members). Possibly a combination of all three. That said I have no evidence on this either way (it just smacks of the same old retarded bullshit I've seen quite a bit of over the years) and I'd be delighted to be proven wrong on this point.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:41   #76
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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i would honestly like to differ. I bet cardi is already preparing his EORC speech and i am also pretty confident he is willing to step on whoevers toes he has to to get to spill forth the aforementioned speech.

I think this is the point where ego's come into play when you have asc and app both in a position to secure the round win. just who has the biggest collective ego is the question?
Except you're wrong. This happened in r31 and we kept the NAP the whole way (although I did pretend to break it at the end just to troll santa). Frankly I know cardi better than you. He might offer Ascendancy a straight-up war when everyone else is dead but that's about it.

I don't think people really get how annoying it can be to be inside an alliance like an Ascendancy or an Apprime and watch as people out there in various mid to low ranking alliances get to avoid incoming while hitting you and stirring up others against you. It is one of the most satisfying parts of the round when you get to crush them.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:46   #77
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Re: Round 34 officially over

And you're underestimating just how great the desire in both alliances is to see DLR/Euphoria take a big beating. As for HR and ASS being in our block... please share the bong around so we can all take a hit.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:47   #78
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Except you're wrong. This happened in r31 and we kept the NAP the whole way (although I did pretend to break it at the end just to troll santa). Frankly I know cardi better than you. He might offer Ascendancy a straight-up war when everyone else is dead but that's about it.
so who in your opinion will win this round?

and round 31 was a different situation to this so a little hard to compare to be honest. You offered the NAP to xVx who, to be honest, were quite a significant bit weaker than asc that round and you guys coasted the win. I think a part of you knew, when offering that nap, that you could easilly outroid xVx to the round win. The nap gave you the ability to break the incs on you down so you could be free to roid the smaller BG's (who had good roid/value) and benefit from the score their roids would give you.

Am i far off the mark with this presumption JBG?
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:48   #79
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Re: Round 34 officially over

JBG I'm quite sure you know what my point is, but just in case you don't and for all those 'cold readers' out there I'll explain it again.

We got ourselves into a situation where we couldn't possibly win by keeping up what we were doing (are we agreed here?). We then tried to manipulate vision to drop out, understanding this was unlikely, but still gave us a better % of winning than carrying on our attack on Ascendancy. It failed, we're back in a similar situation to 2 nights ago, boo hoo.

Got it yet?

Quote:
It's not really any more "moot" than the issues over hitting Vision are. Thinking that it is probably explains a lot about why a lot of people seem to make the same mistakes round after round after round after..
Actually at this stage it is a moot point. In the context of the whole round you can look back and say it was a mistake but it's pretty irrelevant to this particular discussion.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:51   #80
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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This is certainly the first time I've heard anyone even suggest HR and ASS were involved in this war. To be honest I'm going to assume this is just total horseshit that you either made up completely to justify your position, you have no idea what targeting actually looks like (which given that I just newsied a few planets from each alliance is pretty true) or you've totally forgotten that alliances like that are pretty unlikely to hit the big gals (where ascendancy and apprime have most of their members). Possibly a combination of all three. That said I have no evidence on this either way (it just smacks of the same old retarded bullshit I've seen quite a bit of over the years) and I'd be delighted to be proven wrong on this point.
It was was from second hand information I'll admit, but I do believe HR will be attacking with your block tonight at least (again second hand information and I'll happily concede the point if you can prove it incorrect). Either way I don't believe anybody in Ascendancy or Apprime ever considered this a fight they couldn't win.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 01:53   #81
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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so who in your opinion will win this round?
Out of Ascendancy or Apprime. Obviously that depends on what you guys do and I have no clue what you'll go for. Ascendancy are slightly further ahead, Apprime look like better roiders and I don't think you guys really know who you want to hit so it's about as close to a coinflip as it gets. I'd pick Ascendancy partly for the institutional experience of what it takes to close out a round and partly because of that really silly crash today by Apprime.

Quote:
and round 31 was a different situation to this so a little hard to compare to be honest. You offered the NAP to xVx who, to be honest, were quite a significant bit weaker than asc that round and you guys coasted the win. I think a part of you knew, when offering that nap, that you could easilly outroid xVx to the round win. The nap gave you the ability to break the incs on you down so you could be free to roid the smaller BG's (who had good roid/value) and benefit from the score their roids would give you.

Am i far off the mark with this presumption JBG?
It's not really that different in what I was referring to, namely that the two strongest alliances allied in order to defeat a larger block and kept that alliance even when their opposition was defeated. Obviously it's different in other details. I knew it'd give us a decent chance to end up #1 yeah. I don't honestly recall how I rated our chances exactly. I did know that it wasn't my primary concern. My primary concern was demonstrating to the various BGs involved that I wasn't going to let Ascendancy be manipulated by them.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:01   #82
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Since this thread is just full of wrongs and twisted "facts" ill just post a small thing to all you readers out there who is "out of the know"

From the Apprime side of view, we couldnt care less as long as the other side gets beaten down as hard as possible.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:01   #83
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Quote:
Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
JBG I'm quite sure you know what my point is, but just in case you don't and for all those 'cold readers' out there I'll explain it again.

We got ourselves into a situation where we couldn't possibly win by keeping up what we were doing (are we agreed here?). We then tried to manipulate vision to drop out, understanding this was unlikely, but still gave us a better % of winning than carrying on our attack on Ascendancy. It failed, we're back in a similar situation to 2 nights ago, boo hoo.

Got it yet?
I'm sure we're all thinking of a certain Homer Simpson quote right now concerning trying.

Anyways your point seems to have changed from WE ONLY HAD 3 OPTIONS WHAT COULD WE DO HELP US OBI-WAN to we tried something with a really low chance of success and it didn't work so sue us and given that I don't really care about anything bar everyone ending up at least trying to make a reasonably sensible point. You're never going to agree in a bazillion years that anything else had a higher chance of success so I'll leave it at that and let the readers decide.

Quote:
Actually at this stage it is a moot point. In the context of the whole round you can look back and say it was a mistake but it's pretty irrelevant to this particular discussion.
Given the title of this thread is "round 34 officially over" and the logical run-on from that title is "is it really and if so why" I'm going to disagree with you on it being irrelevant.

Quote:
It was was from second hand information I'll admit, but I do believe HR will be attacking with your block tonight at least (again second hand information and I'll happily concede the point if you can prove it incorrect).
I pmed someone, hanzi, and he said they were not attacking with HR. And don't try to shift the burden of proof. You're the one making the assertion that HR are working with Apprime/Ascendancy. You didn't just assume this out of thin ****ing air (unless you're a liar) so you show your proof.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:03   #84
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by Turtle View Post
And you're underestimating just how great the desire in both alliances is to see DLR/Euphoria take a big beating.
And you're underestimating just how great my desire is to actually be launched on rather than see you say this in every post you make. Why do you think the foundations of the "block" began in the first place? Because we had a great desire to see app take a beating and decided the best way was to brainwash AD through repetition? (Though arguably, and weakly so, you could trace the origins back to the first app gangbang of the round).
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:03   #85
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Re: Round 34 officially over

im also bumbuddies with Turtle so atleast the 2 of us wont hit eachother! question is, will it stop asc and apprime from waring eachother in havoc?
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:07   #86
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra
Why do you think the foundations of the "block" began in the first place?
I imagine cardinal called you all shit again. And again. And again. And probably used illustrations to make his point.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:12   #87
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'm sure we're all thinking of a certain Homer Simpson quote right now concerning trying.

Anyways your point seems to have changed from WE ONLY HAD 3 OPTIONS WHAT COULD WE DO HELP US OBI-WAN to we tried something with a really low chance of success and it didn't work so sue us and given that I don't really care about anything bar everyone ending up at least trying to make a reasonably sensible point. You're never going to agree in a bazillion years that anything else had a higher chance of success so I'll leave it at that and let the readers decide.
No shit, and that was one of the 3 options. I'm not an unreasonable guy, give me option 4 and I can happily accept we didn't pick the best course of action, I'm not the kind of person that's going to lie to keep up an image on a browser based game forum. Out of those 3 though I'm comfortable that we chose the best one.

Quote:
Given the title of this thread is "round 34 officially over" and the logical run-on from that title is "is it really and if so why" I'm going to disagree with you on it being irrelevant.
And given that the body of the OP concludes that the round is only over cause we hit VisioN I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you disagreeing, so there we are.

Quote:
I pmed someone, hanzi, and he said they were not attacking with HR. And don't try to shift the burden of proof. You're the one making the assertion that HR are working with Apprime/Ascendancy. You didn't just assume this out of thin ****ing air (unless you're a liar) so you show your proof.
OK here's the deal, if I have no proof tomorrow morning I'll come here and acknowledge it. I really don't give a shit as it was something of a tangent to what I was saying anyway in that I don't think Asc/App believed they couldn't win.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:22   #88
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
No shit, and that was one of the 3 options. I'm not an unreasonable guy, give me option 4 and I can happily accept we didn't pick the best course of action, I'm not the kind of person that's going to lie to keep up an image on a browser based game forum. Out of those 3 though I'm comfortable that we chose the best one.
I did give you one. I'm trying not to sound condescending here but seriously try and think outside the box. Do something cunning and unexpected for goodness' sake!

Quote:
And given that the body of the OP concludes that the round is only over cause we hit VisioN I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you disagreeing, so there we are.
Right, if you're seriously going to limit yourself to the question of "is the first post right or wrong", especially when that original poster is CBA, I'd advise avoiding posting altogether.

Quote:
OK here's the deal, if I have no proof tomorrow morning I'll come here and acknowledge it. I really don't give a shit as it was something of a tangent to what I was saying anyway in that I don't think Asc/App believed they couldn't win.
I'd agree, I believe they could win without them too (mainly because they are).
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:28   #89
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Re: Round 34 officially over

In a game so restricted as this there is very little oppurtunity to do anything outside of the box. I'm not denying there were other, possibly better, options though. Maybe I'm just too dense to see them, whatever.

To be honest you could say the same thing about the topic, but as our discussion was pretty much solely based around our decision to hit Vision, I considered the original formation of the block to be moot at that point. I'd be happy to discuss that too though.

Well quite, I just looked to see where my info came from and it was just based on the fact both ASS and HR galraided heavy ND gals on what I believe was NDs first night of real incs. I guess you can read into that whatever you want so to save any ridiculous arguments over that I'll just concede it was coincidence.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:35   #90
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
In a game so restricted as this there is very little oppurtunity to do anything outside of the box. I'm not denying there were other, possibly better, options though. Maybe I'm just too dense to see them, whatever.
I would not dream of implying such.

Quote:
To be honest you could say the same thing about the topic, but as our discussion was pretty much solely based around our decision to hit Vision, I considered the original formation of the block to be moot at that point. I'd be happy to discuss that too though.
Sure, it seems more interesting than this. From your perspective why did the block emerge?
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:54   #91
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Re: Round 34 officially over

I suppose there are 2 parts to it, Euphoria and DLR began co-operating in an attempt to stop Apprime completely dominating the round. We saw them as the strongest alliance by some way (still do I guess) so figured if left to grow unchecked after their initial beat down they'd fast become unreasonably powerful. We did a reasonable job I suppose though their def was pretty insane at times we managed to stunt their growth to some extent.

While this was going on Ascendancy built up in relative peace. Obviously can't be sure what incs they got but I suspect it wasn't much. Since they were becoming more of a threat by the day it was decided that continuing to hit Apprime would just lead to an easy Ascendancy win. I think we played it alright up to here, apart from the occasional crash ofc.

The block was seen as the best way to make sure we could keep both Ascendancy and Apprime under control. Obviously in hindsight we should have attempted to play the 2 best alliances against each other rather than forcing them into an alliance. I suppose we didn't because we overestimated the resistance Subh - and to a lesser extent ND, who we've allied before - would put up when targeted and underestimated the amount of crashes.

Anyway as Subh crumbled and we couldn't roid Ascendancy well enough we ended up in this rather sad looking position.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 02:59   #92
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by zebra View Post
And you're underestimating just how great my desire is to actually be launched on rather than see you say this in every post you make. Why do you think the foundations of the "block" began in the first place? Because we had a great desire to see app take a beating and decided the best way was to brainwash AD through repetition? (Though arguably, and weakly so, you could trace the origins back to the first app gangbang of the round).
The block is like an onion, you peel off the outer layers first. We could hardly put a credible attack when half our ships are grounded for def could we.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 03:04   #93
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Quote:
Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney View Post
I suppose there are 2 parts to it, Euphoria and DLR began co-operating in an attempt to stop Apprime completely dominating the round. We saw them as the strongest alliance by some way (still do I guess) so figured if left to grow unchecked after their initial beat down they'd fast become unreasonably powerful. We did a reasonable job I suppose though their def was pretty insane at times we managed to stunt their growth to some extent.

While this was going on Ascendancy built up in relative peace. Obviously can't be sure what incs they got but I suspect it wasn't much. Since they were becoming more of a threat by the day it was decided that continuing to hit Apprime would just lead to an easy Ascendancy win. I think we played it alright up to here, apart from the occasional crash ofc.

The block was seen as the best way to make sure we could keep both Ascendancy and Apprime under control. Obviously in hindsight we should have attempted to play the 2 best alliances against each other rather than forcing them into an alliance. I suppose we didn't because we overestimated the resistance Subh - and to a lesser extent ND, who we've allied before - would put up when targeted and underestimated the amount of crashes.

Anyway as Subh crumbled and we couldn't roid Ascendancy well enough we ended up in this rather sad looking position.
There was a fair bit of hostility between Apprime and Asc that could have been fed off quite easily, but you backed Asc into a corner, they saw a coalition of alliances beating Apprime up and drew a quite logical conclusion that Asc would be next if we didn't jump in and help Apprime before they were roided to nothing.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 03:07   #94
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said here

Quote:
Obviously in hindsight we should have attempted to play the 2 best alliances against each other rather than forcing them into an alliance
Though at the same time I believe that Apprime and Ascendancy would have put aside their apparent contempt for each other if they saw an 'inferior' alliance heading for the round win.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 03:25   #95
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Re: Round 34 officially over

Quote:
Obviously in hindsight we should have attempted to play the 2 best alliances against each other rather than forcing them into an alliance
I think this is along the lines of what DLR tries to do every round, and while it's often efficient for keeping the bigger allies off our backs, it has lately led to some of our most boring rounds. I personally thank cardi (and to a lesser extent CBA) for blatantly hitting us and giving us someone to attack outright.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 03:30   #96
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Re: Round 34 officially over

I personally, together with a lot of other Asc and App I guess, love hitting freeriders like DLR.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 03:42   #97
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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I personally, together with a lot of other Asc and App I guess, love hitting freeriders like DLR.
We like hitting freeriders too, hence your incs over the past few days.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 05:36   #98
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Re: Round 34 officially over

takes a whole alliance to hit one planet amirite
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 09:28   #99
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Re: Round 34 officially over

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
im also bumbuddies with Turtle so atleast the 2 of us wont hit eachother! question is, will it stop asc and apprime from waring eachother in havoc?
I think this question is important enough to be worth a topic of its own.
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Unread 3 Dec 2009, 10:26   #100
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Re: Round 34 officially over

I see Alki got some roids again.
Can someone roid him plz?
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