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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 08:51   #1
-Blue Moon-
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suggested stats fixes

copied from beta forums where we were discussing the pure-kill Zik FR and the overall ability to help each race hit every other race:


Tietäjä has pointed out to me that though these stats might balance, it does make Xan FI too reliant on FI, and makes FR redundant. I'm now looking at ways to overcome that

right i thought of a whole bunch of changes which still sit in with monroe's 'every race must be able to roid every other race' thing:

Terran:
Phoenix changes to FI>CO 5
Cathaar:
Scarab changes to DE>CR 1
Xan:
Bomber changes to FI>FR 5
Wraith changes to FR>FI 8
Shadow changes to BS>CR 7
Zik:
Cutlass changes to FI>FR 20 (steal)
Corsair changes to CO>FR 6 (normal)
Thief changes to FR>FI 4 (normal)
Cutter changes to FR>CO 20 (steal)
Buccaneer changes to DE>FI 20 (steal)
Rogue changes to BS>DE 21 (steal)
Etd:
Merchant changes to FI>CO 2 (EMP)
Voyager changes to CO>FI 4 (cloak)


Now these changes only work if you do them all. it results in the following:

Terran:
Can be hit with:
ter bs (dragon>syren)
cat co*(if they have enough stunners for both FI class(flack))
cat cr** (if they have enough stunners to both anti-CR)
xan fi (banshee>pegasus)
zik fr (thief>harpy)
etd co (voyager>phoenix)

Cathaar:
Can be hit with:
ter de (if they have enough to get through EMP)
cat co/cr (if they have enoughto get through EMP)
xan fi/fr (if they have enough to get through EMP)
zik fr/de (if they have enough to get through EMP)
etd co (if they have enough to get through EMP)


Xandathrii:
Can be hit with:
ter bs (wyvern>spectre)
cat co* (if they have enough to stun the FI/FR flack)
cat cr* (if they have enough to stun the shadow(bs))
xan fi (Bomber>Wraith)
zik fr (thief>bomber)
etd bs (if they have enough to stun the DE flacks)

ZIKONIAN:
Can be hit by:
cat cr (if they have enough to stun the BS flack)
cat co (if they have enough to stun the FR+flack)
ter bs (wyvern>de)
xan fr (ngihtmare>corsair, wraith>cutlass)
zik de (pirate>steals before>marauder)
etd co (vendor>cutter)
etd bs (if enough to stun DE+flack)

ETRAIDES:
Can be hit by:
ter de (if enough to get through EMP)
cat co (if enough to get by EMP)
cat cr (if enough to stun FR+flack)
xan fi (phantom>voyager)
zik de (if enough to get through EMP)
etd co (if eoough to get through EMP)


Hooray!
It works :-)

Not many 'major changes' and it makes every ship useful.
It also gives the Zik FR fleet a stealer!
And sticks to yuor criteria of race-on-race action.

Resulting in class/targeting of:

Name Class Target Type Init
Harpy Fighter Frigate Norm 7
Phoenix Fighter Corvette Norm 5
Chimera Frigate Cruiser Norm 6
Drake Destroyer Destroyer Norm 5
Pegasus Destroyer Fighter Norm 6
Syren Cruiser Battleship Norm 9
Wyvern Battleship Destroyer Norm 5
Dragon Battleship Cruiser Norm 8
Demeter Destroyer Roids Pod 30
Leviathan Battleship Roids Pod 30
Behemoth Cruiser Struct Struc 40

Spider Fighter Destroyer Emp 1
Viper Corvette Frigate Emp 2
Beetle Corvette Fighter Emp 2
Black Widow Frigate Corvette Emp 1
Scarab Destroyer Cruiser Emp 1
Tarantula Cruiser Battleship Emp 1
Roach Cruiser Frigate Emp 2
Scorpion Battleship Battleship Norm 9
Mosquito Corvette Roids Pod 30
Hornet Cruiser Roids Pod 30
Termite Battleship Struct Struc 40

Banshee Fighter Destroyer Cloak 5
Phantom Fighter Corvette Cloak 3
Bomber Fighter Frigate Cloak 5
Wraith Frigate Fighter Cloak 8
Shadow Battleship Cruiser Cloak 7
Nightmare Frigate Corvette Cloak 4
Ghost Destroyer Destroyer Cloak 6
Spectre Destroyer Battleship Cloak 10
Illusion Fighter Roids Pod 30
Vampyre Frigate Roids Pod 30
Haunt Destroyer Struct Struc 40

Cutlass Fighter Frigate Steal 20
Corsair Corvette Frigate Norm 6
Thief Frigate Fighter Norm 4
Cutter Frigate Corvette Steal 20
Buccaneer Destroyer Fighter Steal 20
Pirate Destroyer Battleship Steal 20
Rogue Battleship Destroyer Steal 21
Marauder Battleship Cruiser Steal 20
Privateer Frigate Roids Pod 30
Ironclad Destroyer Roids Pod 30
Galleon Battleship Struct Struc 40

Merchant Fighter Corvette Emp 2
Voyager Corvette Fighter Cloak 4
Vendor Corvette Frigate Norm 5
Ranger Frigate Battleship Steal 20
Dealer Frigate Cruiser Norm 8
Investor Cruiser Battleship Norm 9
Tycoon Battleship Frigate Norm 8
Broker Battleship Destroyer Emp 2
Rambler Corvette Roids Pod 30
Baliff Battleship Roids Pod 30
Liquidator Cruiser Struct Struc 40


-tux
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Last edited by -Blue Moon-; 18 Jun 2007 at 12:39.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 08:59   #2
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Re: suggested stats fixes

sorry to monroe - i wanted to paste the conversation we had on beta forums here so people could see his side of it also :

he suggested that having 3 FI in the xan fleet makes the Xan FI too strong offensively, and gives them too many defensive advantages (by turning a bomber (co) into a fi).

i said that people attack with fi-co often, so he should never disregard that from xans and that having 3 fighters means Xan have to specialise their FI attack fleets to hit a specific race.

(i.e. banshee for terran, phantom for etd, bomber for xan)

because they'd have to specialise their FI attack fleets there's more potential for fun and faking ( both for attackers and defenders - making the FI more vulnerable to certain ddefenses depending on their attacking fleet's composition)etc...

i also pointed out that if an attack ship is a defense ship it will mean Xan players need to decide what to keep at home etc... increasing tactical decisions. (instead of moving all FI to Fleet 1)

what's your position on this argument?
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 09:57   #3
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Re: suggested stats fixes

There are two insights into this sort of an arrangement.

First, the Planetarion team is known to be very stubborn and admant in defending their choices whether good, bad, or disastrous. Now that it's apparently official that the given stats have been finalized (have they?), there's unlikely to be any changes. Monroe as a personality fits to the scheme good. Yet, I agree with him to an extent that granting a third fighter will give them more edge in respects you fail to acknowledge in your logic. Combined fighter-corvette fleets have one huge difference to fullbred fighter fleets. It's called initiative and flak. In your stats, merchant would fire at corvettes at initiative 2, rendering it nigh totally useless against beetles, as it can't be combined in defences effectively (to prevent beetles from firing EMP blows). Oh, I sidetracked. Well, first of all, the beetle shoots at fighters. Given a pure fighter fleet, beetles will suffer because there are more fighters. Same would happen to voyager, given it was co-fi EMP.

Second, you are performing a large amount of changes, and such that break the "stats plan", for example the xandathrii battleship that hits cruisers. You could, equally well, just do a whole new set from scratch and avoid several issues related to this setup. Again, the Planetarion team is probably strongly against this.

To go back to your argument, the xandathrii fighter fleet would do the following if it was your way:

Defend against terran and zikonian destroyer fleets.
Defend against cathaar and eitrades corvette fleets.
Defend against xandathrii frigate fleets.

Hit terrans with initiative priority over pegasus.
Hit cathaars with the ability to produce large flak through 3 different fighters.
Hit xandathrii with initiative priority over wraith.
Hit eitrades with initiative priority over voyager.
Hit low-thief zikonians with initiative priority over buccaneer.
(The last on line would follow from the fact that zikonians would have to elect either being able to steal or being sufficiently self-protective: if you want to be self-protective, you won't be hit by xandathrii fighters, but you won't be stealing any either).

Overpowered?

Noooo.

Very balanced. I vouch for tux to fix the stats.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 10:31   #4
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Hit cathaars with the ability to produce large flak through 3 different fighters.
Hit xandathrii with initiative priority over wraith.
Hit eitrades with initiative priority over voyager.
Hit low-thief zikonians with initiative priority over buccaneer.

(The last on line would follow from the fact that zikonians would have to elect either being able to steal or being sufficiently self-protective: if you want to be self-protective, you won't be hit by xandathrii fighters, but you won't be stealing any either).

I can defend all of those decisions should anyone need an explanation:

Xan Fr can't hit Terran, so Xan FI can. (hense the banshee) Zik FR can hit Xan, so in effect the banshee gives Xan an IMMUNITY to DE incommings. Unfortunately for Xans the Zik DE and FR fleets have the same eta - if people keep their FI home and get wasted by a clever Zik with Thief - now that's interesting. Also combine it with the idea that banshee would be out attacking Terrans AND defending the Fi-attack fleet against the Buc de>fi stealer in-gal (because of the big bpacks). i think its a good compromise.

Xan FI flack won't be much different to be fair - perhaps 10-20% larger fleets/resources should Xans decide to concentrate on FI fleets. As a result the emp efficiencies would/could/SHOULD reflect this. we can calculate empres and guns to make this disadvantage/advantage lessen on average (especially since the Beetle is the only FI stunner and the Xan FI fleet is the only FI attack fleet - this makes balancing easier).

The Bomber/Wraith combination could easily be given the same initiative and make it very messy with attackers/defenders running (i'm not for or against this) HOWEVER according to monroe's thing one has to beat the other or Xans will be unable to roid Xan. Simple. The problem with monroe's way means that if Xan has to hit Xan (as with all the other races) one ship from each race will be able to defend against their own race. this ship has been carefully selected in each case to try and ensure these ships are in attack fleets - thusly not making them (ALWAYS) viable defensive options.

the reason behind the merchant initiative of 2 is three fold. firstly etd are not an emp race so it seems unfair to give them an init 1 ship. secondly the cath cr fleet has a hard time stunning enough FR (because etd have two fr) and thusly they will most likely need to attack with co - keeping them the same init and stunning isn't pointless because the merchant will still be able to use a proportion of guns on the Pods (which characteristically have a poor ish empres). as most people would have fleets of 9k co to 1k co pods (example), or similar, the merchant would be able to send 10% of the guns towards the poor empres CO pods... using a combination of any of the factors above could make Cath CO/CR fleets better or worse against Etd. thirdly it's obviously a useful ship deterring etd co (a little).

you're 100% right with the Ziks in their FI warding-off (or deterring) abilities. zik need to decide if they want to steal Xan Fi or kill them. as a result those with large thief (for attacking xans) would likely have few bucs (unless they were doing de fleets for cath and ziks also...) - this again makes one fleet very dependant on the other. if you were a clever zik you'd have half of each and try to entice fi onto you, or build all thief and ignore the buc as both an offensive and defensive ship.

lastly the reason behind making the Xan Spectre a bs>cr is simply to make the tarantula more important, and to force Xan to have additional research to perform. you COULD leave the Xan FR>CR as it was - but this would result in two 3 shipped attack fleets - making 6 of the 8 xan ships potentially offensive - and meaning cath CR would have an insanely hard time freezing all the xan fr flack. it still elaves the anti-cr as 2 fr>cr(ter/etd) and 2 bs>cr(zik/xan) - meaning the Cath cr fleet needs to be balanced with both. the cath de>cr change is to take the scarab out of being used for flack reasons - it already has the init advantage and i believe it would become TOO useful if it stayed a FR (and would mean the cath cr would need to stun both scarab and BW when attacking cath).

hope it makes better sense now :-)

-tux

p.s. i agree PAT are extremely stubborn about these things unfortunately :-(
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 10:36   #5
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Re: suggested stats fixes

i think that tux's stats looks like a very attack oriented set of stats, while i personally have no problems against that I think the general population of PA will have slight problems with it.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 10:52   #6
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
i think that tux's stats looks like a very attack oriented set of stats, while i personally have no problems against that I think the general population of PA will have slight problems with it.
yeah i'm a very attack minded player despite spending the whole of last round in-gal defending only. i believe monroe is also an attack minded individual which is why editing these stats for the balancing and zik-kil-fleet reasons was pretty easy (because they already were attack minded - the key principle behind his stats was that every race could attack every other race - so it was pretty obvious).

I'd say that while he believes his stats are fine - these additions and slight changes can enhance them (while at the moment every race CANNOT roid every other race, and this fixes that).

in addition, with the inability for most players to self-cover (because of changes to production) ingal defense is going to be SO important this round (especially with bpacks of 5 floating about). these changes also reflect this need for co-operation in defense (i.e. xan and zik trading their anti-fr ships to cover eachother)... in that sense, i'd like to think that these changes also have the element of defense worked in since i spent the whole of last round doing that :-)

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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 10:56   #7
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Re: suggested stats fixes

I have to be honest and say I prefer these changes as if nothing else they seem to offer a better balance between the races themselves. That said xan may be very slightly overpowered in this iteration.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 11:00   #8
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Re: suggested stats fixes

I think that Monroe's stats look pretty okay.

There are a lot of unknown variables (ie the production/research changes) I would prefer a round with the changes monroe already has put forward as I have spent a lot of time on analyzing these already, a change in the stats now will just mess up what i've done so far and I don't have time to go in depth on the suggestion from tux. however, we might go with the changes tux suggests next round if Monroe's stats doesnt work out.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 11:01   #9
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
hope it makes better sense now :-)
Yes, it makes more sense, yet it doesn't make xandathrii fighters any less powered. Explain to me, what sense would there be for a xandathrii to elect the path of building frigates instead of fighters? Or splitting it even? There is the YAY WE HITZ ZIKSENIANZ WITH FRIGATEZ -option but clearly being able to target four races instead of one is a dominant strategy.

What comes to merchants, zikonians, and other gadgets yes, the choices make "sense", but it doesn't mean I'd find them particularily smart choices. On third hand, it's not like they're going to change the statistics irregardless, no matter how torrid they are, so we can just cringe and whinge all we want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
we might go with the changes tux suggests next round if Monroe's stats doesnt work out.
The downside in this plan is, that there have been suggestions that are in some sights better than tuxed0's set proposed here. Granted, the set isn't complete so it leaves some holes (as in efficiencies et cetera). Besides, it'd still be ackward to repeat the same mistake just for shits and giggles and then come back with "okay monroe ****ed up twice let's change the scheme now" instead of just realizing the mistake after the first time you push your genitalia down the meatgrinder.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 11:06   #10
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä



The downside in this plan is, that there have been suggestions that are in some sights better than tuxed0's set proposed here. Granted, the set isn't complete so it leaves some holes (as in efficiencies et cetera). Besides, it'd still be ackward to repeat the same mistake just for shits and giggles and then come back with "okay monroe ****ed up twice let's change the scheme now" instead of just realizing the mistake after the first time you push your genitalia down the meatgrinder.
You might be right, you might be wrong, can you guarantee that tux's stats will be better? Stats making is no black and white

I find this slating process against monroe unfortunate and it does set yet another example on that people who come in from the community to do a job for PA get so much gripes that they wont do more work. Monroe's stats last round was not that bad and I think that his changes improves the stats and make the races more balanced.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 11:23   #11
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Not that bad?

There was 1(!!!!) Terran in the t100, and edt was CLEARLY the best race. Decent stats my arse. There are loads of other experienced players eager to develop sets of stats, shame they dont get the chance(some even have made stats yet they are discarded for some reason).
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 11:37   #12
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Xan FR would be for Zik and Cath - and for Etd who are out attacking with their Tycoon and to retal Xan attackers who will hit you with their FI.

The FI may be considered 'overpowered' individually but as a whole nobody will be able to afford to have the option of hitting all 4 races for the simple fact that each fi fleet will need to be specifically tailored to beat that particular race. in addition to this they need to be aware that they need to defend their FI against the other anti-FI - banshee to protect against the bucs for example - which will cost a lot.

in addition the efficiencies of beetles can be placed wherever we chose them to. if we want beetles to stun 1:3 value on xan fi then we can do that no problem. it's the only ship which will have anti-fi emp guns so it really doesnt matter. other races' anti-fi ships are then balanced appropriately
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 12:04   #13
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
Xan FR would be for Zik and Cath - and for Etd who are out attacking with their Tycoon and to retal Xan attackers who will hit you with their FI.
A very circumstance-specific instance. You're far better off building phantoms and hitting them with fighters. Also, when their voyagers are out attacking, you can retal them with fighters too! Same applies for cathaars. When they're out attacking with beetles you can retal them with fighters, and as you yourself said, the corvettes needed to be a stronger attack fleet so there'll probably be quite an equal spread of corvette and cruiser cathaars. Invalid point. Edit: did you also notice, that when a zikonian has his thieves out, you can also retaliate him with fighters? Oh the sheer brilliance! Plus, given that your frigate fleet doesn't target the roach, you're rather bad off already when you launch at a cath. D'h.

Quote:
The FI may be considered 'overpowered' individually but as a whole nobody will be able to afford to have the option of hitting all 4 races for the simple fact that each fi fleet will need to be specifically tailored to beat that particular race.
With this argument, you can give xandathrii a fighter to hit each class of ships, and claim that it will never be overpowered because it will specifically need to be tailored to beat a particular race. Why don't you do it, then? You will still need banshees to hit buccs, even if shadows were a fighter-cruiser...


Quote:
in addition to this they need to be aware that they need to defend their FI against the other anti-FI - banshee to protect against the bucs for example - which will cost a lot.
And it will cost even more to defend against those banshees, as whatever the case is (given there's no killship that'd fire before the xandathrii fighters save the thief, which is again the sole problem and only applicable ingal, and isn't steal so it can be discussed whether it will be as "common" as buccaneer - my guess is it'll go about 50-50 with bucc and thief players, the firsts also owning a bunch of thieves), the banshees will be hitting first. In addition, you will need the banshees not only to protect your attack fleet from buccaneer defences, you will be needing them to protect yourself against terran destroyers (and to a lesser, alternative extent, zikonian destroyers). So you'll be building them anyways. The same applies to the fighter-frigate bob. You'll be needing them to protect yourself against both frigate fleets, so you'll be building them whether you want them in your attack fleet or not. So the optimal behavior is to build them! It's hard to tell whether a xandathrii, being cloaked, then uses them to attack or not.

A bit like round 18, tux. Remember that? The zikonian battleships weren't overpowered either.

Quote:
in addition the efficiencies of beetles can be placed wherever we chose them to. if we want beetles to stun 1:3 value on xan fi then we can do that no problem. it's the only ship which will have anti-fi emp guns so it really doesnt matter. other races' anti-fi ships are then balanced appropriately
Yeah, just remember not to make xandathrii EMP resistances 5 and zikonian EMP resistances 80 with ten times heavier ships. It'll prove nigh impossible to stun any cutlasses! (an incident which occurred rounds 18 and 19).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
You might be right, you might be wrong, can you guarantee that tux's stats will be better? Stats making is no black and white
To be honest, I never claimed tux's stats are better. And I've spent quite a bit of time analyzing different sets of statistics, so I know that it's not black and white, other factors than just the numbers affect it, and the crunching can be difficult. Check the link I posted on the R21 Stats analysis thread regarding my analysis of round 21 statistics - it elaborates the mechanics I used to analyze the situation. While the bottom line is that I made a bad error in my analysis there, the generel view is that it will be hard to argue that I did not claim that the stats are poorly balanced and that once we agree that I claimed so it will be hard to claim I was wrong. To sum up, it isn't necessarily so difficult to say a given set of statistics is grossly unbalanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isildur
There are loads of other experienced players eager to develop sets of stats, shame they dont get the chance(some even have made stats yet they are discarded for some reason).
I could name a group of interested, experienced players to build a set of statistics right now. What the results would be, is harder to predict, but I don't think you can go much more downwards from last round. Why it will not happen is, because at the moment the PA team feel that stability and reduced variability in the statistics between rounds is a priority over balance. This happened in a bad time, admitted - had they decided it after round 17, we'd have our nuts far better. Too bad they insist on using a bad set of statistics as a baseline for this new era. I reckon tux mentioned somewhere, that the fundamental idea of Monroe's statistics restricts building the set around them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tux
HOWEVER according to monroe's thing one has to beat the other or Xans will be unable to roid Xan. Simple. The problem with monroe's way means that if Xan has to hit Xan (as with all the other races) one ship from each race will be able to defend against their own race
One of the few things I agree with tux about, is the named problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I find this slating process against monroe unfortunate and it does set yet another example on that people who come in from the community to do a job for PA get so much gripes that they wont do more work. Monroe's stats last round was not that bad and I think that his changes improves the stats and make the races more balanced.
I think Isildur already stated enough regarding the quality of last round's stats. How many eitrades were there in top10? Nine? I can't even be arsed to count how many the top100 included. What baffles me, is the fact that you try defend a set of statistics that has been, not only by me, found about awful, and say that it's sad that people slate the person who is responsible of them. First, to let you know, the person is being slated not only because he made a poor set of statistics but also because he experiences severe issues listening to comments on his statistics and again is found (not only by me) to be largely ignorant in a fashion that damages the statistics creation process. Secondly, he is definately, as we see here, with tux's and Game's efforts, not the only person in the community stepping up with the stats (it's not like Jerome hasn't made a variety of stats during the rounds either).

Last edited by Tietäjä; 18 Jun 2007 at 12:15.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 12:16   #14
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Re: suggested stats fixes

right i see where you're coming from now..... i'll leave this thread open for discussion and try to work it out.... not that it matters i suppose, but i'd like to know there's a solution.

i still feel these are better though ;-(
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 13:15   #15
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Without commenting if the suggested setup is actually "better" than the excisting setup, the whole discussion is very much in vain if we know that no matter how blissfull a set of statistics we produce in common harmony, hugging each other of sheer joy, the game team will still prefer the worse set of statistics in order to ensure less changes in statistics between the rounds.

Which makes me figure, if it'd be better to forfeit the whole trying to fix the statistics, and generating a better set of statistics from scratch, and completing the changes into the "figured to be better" set gradually. If it's a question about the amount of changes made, not about the quality of the results, this sounds like an ample plan that will under the current combat engine probably see us with a set of stats with a whole fresh different approach somewhere maybe round 25.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 16:16   #16
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Re: suggested stats fixes

For the record, several things are NOT true about me that some on this thread continue to propigate.

1. I do listen to every perspective I am given on stats and carefully weigh each one and consider how it effects not just the race in question, but the entire set of stats. I then decide given my objectives with stats (attack oriented like tux) whether or not I feel it is a good change. I then either accept or reject the change based on that criteria. There are people who have posted in this thread who have given me good suggestions, and I have made those changes.

2. Tux's above listed attempt is a very admirable one, and I applauded his attempt when he made it. The reason I chose not to impliment it on Thursday was two fold. One by solving one problem he created another one with Xan FI. Whether or not this was an improvement or not is debatable. Second given how late Tux joined the beta (why I am not sure) his suggestion came at the 11th hour and I decided rather then make a fairly radical change late in the game to continue on the track we were on. If Tux had been around in the beta a week earlier it is fairly likely we would have at least tried his suggestion, or some varient on it.

So to conclude, I do listen, and I do make changes when suggested as long as they pass the 'don't cause more problems then they solve' test. I do tend to be a bit conservative when it comes to changes, especially late in the development process, but this is because I believe that small changes can have big consequences if not carefully thought through. For r23 there is a real possibility of starting over with stats, given that there are some fundimental deficiencies with this set that I believe would be easiest to fix simply by starting over. Stats are a complex interaction of a number of dynamic principles, therefor there are no simple solutions as some would suggest, that give an elagent result. This is why we can debate back and forth and come to very few hard conclusions. I continue to welcome the debate, regardless of how nasty some of those on these forums become towards me personally.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 16:30   #17
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Re: suggested stats fixes

yeah but you dont listen, you're doing what you think is best, rather than the majority who play this ****ing game
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 17:06   #18
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
1. I do listen to every perspective I am given on stats and carefully weigh each one and consider how it effects not just the race in question
It's amusing how many people seem to disagree with you on this, and the person who managed to throw in the first reply wasn't even on top of my mind on the list of people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
For r23 there is a real possibility of starting over with stats, given that there are some fundimental deficiencies with this set that I believe would be easiest to fix simply by starting over.
For the sake of the game, I hope you are not in charge of that project. (To the moderator-person: feel free to edit, delete, ban, or mutilate this post as you please, I'm actually looking forward for you to do it). Your current approach of "fixing it" hasn't gained much applause in the community (and to be honest, I've paid more attention to tux's fixes than your actual set).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
For r23 there is a real possibility of starting over with stats, given that there are some fundimental deficiencies with this set that I believe would be easiest to fix simply by starting over
Indeed. Starting over the whole combat engine? That's maybe exaggerating. It's not like the current set of statistics or the method of production doesn't seem to involve fundamental deficiencies that would be easiest to fix by simply starting it over. There have been decently balanced sets of statistics. There's little reason to try fix something that can't be fixed, instead of doing it all anew, save for you and apparently some parts of the game team relishing the "don't change the stats" over "shitly balanced stats".
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 17:14   #19
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Funny, reminds me.

Why wasn't there an opportunity to really start over for r22? What makes r23 so special?
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 18:05   #20
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Re: suggested stats fixes

I remember there being a discussion in which the majority argued for tweaking stats for r22, rather than starting over. I guess the order for this round was 'tweak these stats without starting over', which demonstrates how well the forces that be misinterpreted the idea.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 18:07   #21
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Re: suggested stats fixes

r22 is a free round so its ok to be shit and crappy stats doesnt matter somehow r23 is paid again, all 300 who are left after r22 or so
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 18:10   #22
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I remember there being a discussion in which the majority argued for tweaking stats for r22, rather than starting over. I guess the order for this round was 'tweak these stats without starting over', which demonstrates how well the forces that be misinterpreted the idea.
I guess we've tweaked them good now with lots of complaints about them already.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 18:40   #23
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Re: suggested stats fixes

[20:07:20] <Monroe> I don't feel that the stats are _totally_ out of wack like you do, and simply put, the "average" PA player really doesn't care
[20:07:31] <Monroe> it's just those of us who are very stats minded who do
[20:07:44] <Monroe> and I really don't think the total number of people who REALLY care is more then 50

hai hai!
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:09   #24
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Why am I not at all surprised.

Maybe next round will have decent stats not made by such a self involved person.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 00:12   #25
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I remember there being a discussion in which the majority argued for tweaking stats for r22, rather than starting over. I guess the order for this round was 'tweak these stats without starting over', which demonstrates how well the forces that be misinterpreted the idea.
I believe the majority's argument was actually for "resolve the present issues by tweaking the stats rather than completely starting over". Judging by the content of this thread (before and after its moderation), the issues haven't been properly resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
[20:07:20] <Monroe> I don't feel that the stats are _totally_ out of wack like you do, and simply put, the "average" PA player really doesn't care
[20:07:31] <Monroe> it's just those of us who are very stats minded who do
[20:07:44] <Monroe> and I really don't think the total number of people who REALLY care is more then 50

hai hai!
If this is the case then Monroe is completely wrong. In fact, I'd say more than 25% of the total playerbase has an active interest in the stats each round, in particular in choosing which race to go (i.e. avoiding choosing a useless race). The ideal world would be one in which every race can equally compete so that players are free to choose their favourite races.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 06:02   #26
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
For the sake of the game, I hope you are not in charge of that project. (To the moderator-person: feel free to edit, delete, ban, or mutilate this post as you please, I'm actually looking forward for you to do it). Your current approach of "fixing it" hasn't gained much applause in the community (and to be honest, I've paid more attention to tux's fixes than your actual set).
You might think of me as a bad person, but i'm not a huge fan of editing or deleting posts - the great thing about Strategy is that it is so rare that i actually need to do anything . I'd much rather leave them like they are, and let the reader decide whether you're on the money or a complete muppet. Anyway, i dont see anything wrong with your post - monroe brought up the issue and its conceivable that a 'suggested stats fixes' might include the person/people doing them, so its on topic.

So, why did you think it was worth moderating? (please reply in PM so i/we dont derail this thread further. )
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 09:18   #27
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
If this is the case then Monroe is completely wrong. In fact, I'd say more than 25% of the total playerbase has an active interest in the stats each round, in particular in choosing which race to go (i.e. avoiding choosing a useless race). The ideal world would be one in which every race can equally compete so that players are free to choose their favourite races.
I'm pretty certain each paying customer is interested; if they aren't interested by the point where they decide which race to go, they will definately be interested if they get the feeling that their race choice has utterly ruined the round for them - it's not like many terrans felt the joy of owning 500+ roids for more than 24 hours last round. Taking into account that terran is the default race, such torrid statistics building that makes the "default" race unplayable beyond words may, and probably will, deter new players from entering the game - the feeling of constant incomings from everyone comes unnecessarily strong when you pick the "wrong" race.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 11:22   #28
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Hah, good point, I hadn't actually thought of that.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 11:25   #29
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Re: suggested stats fixes

everybody reads the stats when they begin. Even new players will do, and are trying there best to pick the best race there is.

Only some people will pick the same race every round again, and after last round I doubt many will pick as a standart Terran or Xan again.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 11:37   #30
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Bullshit Walldo, new players don't read shit, and even if they did, they likely wouldn't be able to figure out the stats at their first go anyway.



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Offtopic, but, "Conspicary"?
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 11:44   #31
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Bullshit Walldo, new players don't read shit, and even if they did, they likely wouldn't be able to figure out the stats at their first go anyway.
Considering stats are probably the most important factor in learning how to play the game i think it's fair to say that the majority of new players do at least look at them, even if they don't totally understand them. Even if the extent of this is 'So who is good to attack with my fr fleet' or something in that manner, which then leads to explaining how initiative and targetting works.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 12:13   #32
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
even if they don't totally understand them. Even if the extent of this is
Taking into account how difficult it is for a "statistics-minded" person to predict how the race balance will fall out, a new player will definately have no clue beyond what they probably seem to be able to attack well. Besides, the stats reading probably happens after the race choice, and as we saw from the terran counts of last round, it's not likely to hit in to them until they realize that unlike the eitrades next to them, they're getting arseraped all the time pretty heavily.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 12:23   #33
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Bullshit Walldo, new players don't read shit, and even if they did, they likely wouldn't be able to figure out the stats at their first go anyway.



P.S.
Offtopic, but, "Conspicary"?

Erm, do you realy think, we only get players who never played a game like this? many "new" players are comming from other games, who will and can judge stats.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 12:28   #34
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Re: suggested stats fixes

So because we're probably not getting quite as many new players as we'd like to, it's a good slot to make it harder for the few that might come by making the default race nigh unplayable? That's a warm welcome, and will definately send a positive image about the game and help it survive - which sounds impossible irregardless.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 12:31   #35
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Re: suggested stats fixes

a thought on the stats from a Caths point of view:

with only 1 killship and the totally ****ed up production system in place Cath is unplayable unless you are in an alliance who provides excellent def.

everyone and their mama will hit you with FI/CO/FR/DE/CR and you can't do shit about it. you can't build yourself out of the incs, you can't scare them away with having enough kill ships that makes enough damage to them to think twice about launching.

give Cath 2 more kill ships or you will see at max 2 Cath in the top 100
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 12:32   #36
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Re: suggested stats fixes

The default race should always be the easiest way to play, Easy to self defence, but harder to attack other planets.

Its no fun that a new player get bashed over and over again, A new players wants to keep his roids. I even think they will be glad if they steal some, but not so many, but can protect the onces they have.

Maybe build a 6th race for it, a easy to play default race, only 1 pod class etc. More ships to defend his home planet, but harder to attack.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 12:36   #37
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Imo thats what edt should have been, instead its some kind of uber race.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 12:41   #38
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Its bull that everyone reads stats, last time i did was round 2.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 13:02   #39
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
a thought on the stats from a Caths point of view:
The cathaar point of view was discussed after the cathaar collapse of last round. At least two identifiable factors were found, and some of them agreed about (well, I think myself, Gate, and Achilles agreed, Monroe may have disagreed).

1. Latent defence ships. Cathaar still have both of their attack fleets hosting an anti-frigate. This means, you'll either have to pick and focus on a strong attack fleet or severely limit your attacking options. Why would it help to have two? The better attack fleet coverage cathaar have, the more the EMP fits the scheme: if you can only cover half classes with your attack fleet ships, you'll be forced to diversify your resources heavily.

2. Zero-loss defence ships. This sort of overlaps with the previous. You're left with a choice: either you'll find it easier (should you invest in a cruiser fleet, which you don't necessarily have to do) to hit zikonians with tarantulas, or you'll find better self-defences with scorpions. Having to build both forces the hand in an already difficult situation. Your only killship overlaps your attack fleet. Instead what you should have, is rounds 17/19 -like structure. I liked 17 specifically: the cathaar format fitted the universe oddly well then - my memories might be golden, though.


Yes, I agree. Cathaar will be splatted, even harder than last round. Easily predictable, but it won't be changed either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Isildur
Imo thats what edt should have been, instead its some kind of uber race.
Whoever came up with the best race -concept? First of all, they were given insane racial abilities. Strangely, this wasn't compensated for in the ship statistics. Quite the contrary - they were given picks and pieces of the best. The better-than-zikonian ability to steal fleets for your attack fleet with a zero-loss defenceship. The ability to stun with your podguards. The ability to kill with your cloaked defence ships. Pick the best of each race, give it +50% salvage, faster construction, and faster production, with no disadvantages, and voila, eitrades.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 13:23   #40
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Given the lack of significant upgrades to cath, their poor construction and prod times (which remember now the first one will impact on) and the resultant overall inability of cathaar to prod out of incs anyone going cath needs to be a serious masochist.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 13:28   #41
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Re: suggested stats fixes

yeah i have petitioned for them to remove ETD in favour of a more original idea... (or to add a 6th race for easier balancing, or to return to 4 races).... Only problem is that this original idea has eluded me thusfar...

Cath should definately be given two immunities - currently they have one in the Anti-BS scorpion (i.e. 2 of the 10 attack fleets). Personally I'd like to give them two immunities e.g. FR/DE (4/10 fleets)... but i dont know if that'd happen.

monroe did say that he'd consdier removing the cath SK to add another edit: i didnt mean roider, my head is crazy with a deadline i'm working on - i meant a zero-loss kill-ship... damn that was stupid... who knows?

i'm still working on trying to un-nerf my suggestion :-s
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 13:42   #42
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
monroe did say that he'd consdier removing the cath SK to add another roider... who knows?
You're joking right? What will that solve?
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 14:53   #43
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Surely you meant another zero-loss def ship? I mean, it's even a non-sequitur in the context of your post

Original ideas are difficult, otherwise we'd all be running massively successful online games. If you're looking for something in terms of new race approaches I'd imagine reading (speed-reading really) vast amounts of sci-fi and looking for ideas there would help.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 14:53   #44
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Re: suggested stats fixes

a second zero loss non-emp defship would be nice, they need to be able to keep their roids for some ticks instead of beeing bashed to pieces every night due to the lack of scary def ships.

i absolutly agree on the two points you made Keizari!

i love cath, i won r18 with cath, i will play cath again and i am pretty sure i will bang my head against the wall at tick 200 or so, coz of my choice.

who is this monroe guy, why is he allowed to do the stats again after last rounds weak set of stats? sounds like he is PA crew material :/

i normally ain't such a whining bitch, but this is just frustrating. i want to play Cath again with proper stats.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 15:00   #45
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Re: suggested stats fixes

If the problem with cath is that they cannot hold onto their roids, why not give them killing def ships, and thus make them like every other race in terms of cost to attack?

Clearly, checking to make sure that offensive EMP + killing defships arent overpowered, i dont really see why Cath has to be effectively all EMP in order to distinguish themselves from the other races.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 15:26   #46
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
monroe did say that he'd consdier removing the cath SK to add another edit: i didnt mean roider, my head is crazy with a deadline i'm working on - i meant a zero-loss kill-ship... damn that was stupid... who knows?
sorry for the confusion guys and girls, my head's a bit screwy and i just checked in again to see if i had replies and saw that stupid mistake... :-S
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 16:07   #47
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
If the problem with cath is that they cannot hold onto their roids, why not give them killing def ships, and thus make them like every other race in terms of cost to attack?
This was done succesfully in rounds 19 and 17, the latter one having better balance overall hence coming with even "better" results. It was discussed during last round, and by now a lot of people have agreed that it should be done as suggested several times.

Swapping a pair of killships for cathaar as they were done in the mentioned rounds is an easy procedure which would ease the balancing out of the race a lot.

I can't see any logical reason why this point has been ignored further to round 22. It has been discussed on a thread in which the creator of the statistics actively participated in, so it can't be he's never heard of the idea. It must be that he has refused the idea either because he thinks it's bad, or because it doesn't fit. I'd bet for the later. (after the moderator edited this, the latter part lost half it's meaning: it's not because it wouldn't fit the statistics in general, but because it wouldn't fit the "fundamentals" the creator of statistics finds it more important to pursue than a balance over races).

As we've witnessed, the race for the grand plan (and experimental statistics) mentioned is a priority over balance. It's because he ignores discussion which reaches a goal that the "experts" discussing seem to agree on about (in this case, I don't think anyone would argue that giving cathaar another killship and making them like mantis-scorpion were rounds 17 and 19 would wouldn't make cathaar more balanced against other races; in a certain other case, a famous thief-harpy scenario, which resulted in a harpy that never really got to fire against thieves without support).

There were better suggestions edited from Monroe's last round's stats.

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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 16:54   #48
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Re: suggested stats fixes

heh, i suggested to him change the termite to a kill ship. Basically giving cath the 2 kill ships. Possibly, make it hit Co. so BS hitting co.

but **** knows these stats are horrific,
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 19:03   #49
Koks
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Cant see how suggested stat fixes turned into a slagg match :/ but anyway i have some suggestions

Make ETD battleship constant in appearance. Keep the A/C D/C similar, maybe a little weaker due to their race bonus' especially the salvage bonus, but either lower the cost of the baliff and lower damage/armour so that they are around the same cost as the other BS, or bring the other etd BS upto the value of the Baliff ships.

Could swap the steal/normal with the bucc and the thief.
This would cause more variance in what the ziks can steal as the clear fi steals with the bucc would be merchant (makes the cutlass useless) or spider.
With a (fr)fi steal ship there is more insentive to creative playing and ziks able to hit xans to steal FI. Also allow ziks to steal fi collections off of each other if they are carless.

Dont think xan should have 3 fi class ships as they will start to overpower caths and etd.

Drastic one i can see is make the Roach a kill ship and make it INT 7. Also increase armour.
That way they can hit etd/zik still, they cant hit terran that easily (good thing for starter players) and they can hit most xans as they would have to stockpile nightmare. Dont think this one will go down very well but limits the cath cr targets so they cant mass CR and hit everyone. Gives Cath another Kill ship and from the opinions sounds like alot of caths want another kill ship. Should stop zik fr fleets and only daring xans will hit caths. Terrans have a good anti CR ship but this can be overpowered by the roach.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 20:54   #50
Satyr
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Re: suggested stats fixes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
a thought on the stats from a Caths point of view:

with only 1 killship and the totally ****ed up production system in place Cath is unplayable unless you are in an alliance who provides excellent def.

everyone and their mama will hit you with FI/CO/FR/DE/CR and you can't do shit about it. you can't build yourself out of the incs, you can't scare them away with having enough kill ships that makes enough damage to them to think twice about launching.

give Cath 2 more kill ships or you will see at max 2 Cath in the top 100
For once I'm forced to agree with an eXi :s Nah j/k , u r completely right about everything Almeida, I said about te exact same things before i read this post, the only difference was that i said im sure there wont be a single cath (maybe that one great cath xp whore exclusive) in top100, there's just no way a cath can keep his roids (thus build up value) for one day. If they dont change the production formula they might as well remove cath imho.
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