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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 03:59   #1
Troll
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Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

The way of the dinosaur. I wonder if the dinosaurs ever came to the realization that they were no longer up to date with the world around them. If that T-Rex lifted his head one day looked around at the ever changing world and said to himself I think our time is about over. Well today this old warrior looked in the mirror and saw a dinosaur looking back at him and it dawned on me that I am no longer relevant in today’s PA universe. I can’t stop myself from playing with a value orientated mindset, I like to attack large targets, I like to outwit my opponents, I also like to defend my gains and make my opponents pay for every inch the take from me. I don’t always win, and I don’t always succeed but I get enjoyment from trying and the pay off with every smart attack or crafty defense is very rewarding. I even get a rush when I get massive incoming as I work out way to make them suffer with each landing normally not looking for ways to make them recall as much as make them take losses which in turn gain me a profit, this is the Value or Zik way of thinking.

Let me take the time to explain how this realization came over me.

Last night I was attacked by a well structured attack against my greatest weakness, corvette incoming, I quickly ascertained my loses and organized the galaxy to make a stand against the many waves I was about to face with the intension of hurting as many as I could. When I crunched the numbers down of me spending my large stockpile of resources to steal a ship class that would be rather useless to me in attacking and defense. That this gain in ships would be like dead weight, bloating my value and sitting in the base slot for the rest of the round limiting who I could attack and most importantly my scoring potential. Here is where I started to look more deeply into why what my instinct told me to do (steal ships gain value, punish the attacker) was indeed wrong.

I started by looking at what was sent at me, then looked at the planets that had sent them. Low value, high scoring planets with very well focused attack fleets. I didn’t see any real dedicated defense fleets or balanced fleet composition. I saw uninspired, thoughtless planets that’s target selection was mostly automated. Normally I would scoff at such tactics, as being short sighted and not seeing the long term benefits of a well rounded game plan. But then why is it that there scores are equal if not exceeding mine? Surely in the long term I will prevail over such a limited one trick strategy?

I looked at my graph on Sandman’s (awesome site btw) and saw why not only was my plan flawed from the start but I was doomed into a spiral in which I would eventually be overtaken by a planet that started 2 weeks late. In my chart I am top 100 in Xp in the opening stage of the round and a top launcher. I credit this to my good activity and the ability to pick targets in a devious what can I steal manner. Quickly my roid count grows and I invest into several stealing home defenses catching attackers off guard. I lose roids but gain what at the time I thought was valuable ships to create secondary strong attack fleet. My value soars as I successfully steal CR and FR and even CO. I catch numerous planets off guard early using these fleets and landing attacks netting me even more asteroids. The fleets are not large mostly because of my inability to build the right ships needed to assist them in attacking so I keep saving and spending to steal from my attackers. The smaller more crafty fleets tend to land with great success as people seem to not see them coming but due to there limited ability the targets that they can successfully land on consistently are of a value lower than mine. To be fair to myself however my value was rather high so for the most part that was going to happen regardless. Now I have value but it’s spread out amongst several fleets each good in it’s own part but the sum of which is failure to be able to gain XP. This leads to me starting a downward trend in the graphs. You can clearly see my value going up and my xp slowly but surely diminishing to the 300 range. Right now I am set up for the big dirty.

The big dirty.

So now bloated with value, and many asteroids my fate is now sealed to my ability to remain a hard target. This is a hopeless cause. I am such a good target for XP and with the stats being inclined towards XP, I am just a sitting duck smiling, unknowingly, for the moment where all the hard work will be taken away. Not by a better opponent who has out worked me, out thought me, or out played me. No, it’s by XP planets that require very little time and effort to run. Planets where the odd crash is not a set back but an advantage as it lowers there value even more giving them even more targets to gain XP from.

Now this is not true bitterness, I have never won a round, I have never been part of a winning alliance (ok fury once) I have played since round 3, and given a lot of time and thought to the game, and how I play it. I have enjoyed most rounds immensely even when I finished well out side of the top 100. But I was out worked, out played, and out thought by players. What I saw was nothing of the sort. I do not blame the players however. They are doing what is need in order to succeed. They have adapted to the change in Planetarion well I have trudged along ignorantly. Perhaps these changes are good, but they are not for me. It’s not from a refusal to change, I was in DLR when they XP whored a round, but more of a refusal to play something that doesn’t challenge me. Oh I know playing a value planet isn’t easy but it is not a challenge. A challenge for me is something that is difficult, but rewarding, and with the deck so clearly stacked against you, well there is no longer and incentive or drive to try and climb the mountain. I am not quitting the round or walking away in a pout. I will continue to fight, but my heart will no longer be in it. This is the beginning of me heading toward the tar pit, to join others like me that have moved on.

The Future

I can see a future for Planetarion where there are no alliances. They will be called alliances, but they won’t be, not in the way I have known them. There will be little point in defense, so these alliances will mostly be large attack groups, much like Ascendancy is now. Fleet catches and wars will become obsolete because where is the point and gain in catching a fleet of an XP whore. Wars mean little as they will just be an exchange of asteroids between two groups of planets, and XP is far better suited towards constantly picking the best target regardless of alliance for maximum XP gain. This could lead to the erosion of the community as people no longer need to be so tightly associated with anyone group. Isolation and the lack of needing anything but a scanner will be the beginning of the end of a game that prides it’s self and survives on it’s community. I no longer feel connected to the game or the community. I maybe just one out of the thousand. Time will tell.

Who knows maybe this is good, I don’t find it entertaining nor stimulating. I await next round but I feel like it will be my last if this trend continues.

Please don’t get me wrong I am not so much anti XP as you might think. I think players should be able to do well with out being in a top alliance. But being in the top 100? This should be something the dedicated and driven can only obtain. It should be something you can say with pride. Instead of being a joke as others have made it by laughing how they make the top 100 with out any effort. Think about that.

To Caj

I hope you win this round as a value player. It shows the amount of time and resources it takes to perform as a top value planet regardless of whether or not you’re a def sucking flag ship. Your only a def sucking flagship because you have no choice but to be one. Your competitive nature and your drive to want to be the best in a game where the cards are so clearly stacked against you is admirable. I hope all of PA looks at what it takes to stay ahead of an XP planet and it dawns on them that it shouldn’t require that immense amount of work in comparison to your XP whore brethren. Also I hope that your mates in des can take pride in your win, because your win will be a team win. People can say anything they want but that’s what it will be. Your win will be shared with your entire alliance because with out their dedication, support and belief in you it would never happen. That’s what PA is suppose to be about, being part of a TEAM.

Steps off the soap box.

Thank you for your time and thank you for all the entertainment of the past rounds

Troll
Ex-DLR HC
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 04:59   #2
Jezz84
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Talking Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

All so very true. I have returned from an extended break and returned to a game i once loved. I have put in so much time activity wise and yet i am battling to stay in the t100. I have people in my gal that are online for about 2 hours a day and have comparable scores to me.

There are so many changes since i last played and i thought i was doing my best to adapt to these but when i sit back and look at the long hours i put into the game to make sure i defend against my hostiles or hostiles of my alliance and gal mates all i see is a pointless battle. If i hear the words "roids dont matter just keep ur fleet safe" one more time i may slaughter the first born of everyone in my gal. If i watch another etd suicide 90% of his attack fleet for 1k xp again i may cry.

I was hesitant to return to the game and now that i have i wonder every day, wtf is the point?
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 05:36   #3
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quite honestly the point is not so much in the final score or if you won or not. It is the struggle and your achievements. I play for value and score and have had little success with either this round. But I go for the largest targets I can land on and often I am faced with having to recall due to defense. I also offer up as much defense for my alliance and my gal mates as I have to offer. My fleet is not balanced because the stats have left me with gaping holes only others can possibly fill.

What keeps me in this game is when you finally hit paydirt and have that awesome landing or outstanding defense and really achieve what you had hoped for or better. I guess too many of these and it gets old but if you don't get one often enough you get burned out. Having people share your success and glory is also whay makes this game so much fun. They tell you about their awesome landing or defense and you both enjoy the telling as much as the rewards.
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 06:02   #4
Jezz84
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

I've had the same luck but i know exactly what you mean about the perfect landings. That is still the PA of old. The thing is with XP players running riot they get their perfect landings every single day and what i was griping about is that the ppl playing for xp dont need to worry about it they can happily sit and get 0 defense all round loose thousands of roids and have their fleet caught and crushed several times over, because at the end of the day they'l just rebuild and their score never goes down. Its not the XP that pisses me off its the lack of negative XP for doing something retarded like crashing 90% of your fleet for a few XP points..
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 07:27   #5
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

I applaud the time, effort and thinking you've put into this, but I disagree on a couple of things. Disagree might not be the right word, but I don't feel the same about all of it. Though, I do agree that xp is horribly broken right now, and the shipstats are worse than terrible. The game mechanics are pretty bad as well, but all of this should be quite common knowledge, and easy to see for someone who has some experience and intelligence.

After reviewing what I wrote, I've realised that I'm going largely besides the post and possibly off-topic, but I'll post it anyway.

These are my thoughts on PA and playstyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
The way of the dinosaur. I wonder if the dinosaurs ever came to the realization that they were no longer up to date with the world around them. If that T-Rex lifted his head one day looked around at the ever changing world and said to himself I think our time is about over. Well today this old warrior looked in the mirror and saw a dinosaur looking back at him and it dawned on me that I am no longer relevant in today’s PA universe. I can’t stop myself from playing with a value orientated mindset, I like to attack large targets, I like to outwit my opponents, I also like to defend my gains and make my opponents pay for every inch the take from me. I don’t always win, and I don’t always succeed but I get enjoyment from trying and the pay off with every smart attack or crafty defense is very rewarding. I even get a rush when I get massive incoming as I work out way to make them suffer with each landing normally not looking for ways to make them recall as much as make them take losses which in turn gain me a profit, this is the Value or Zik way of thinking.
So do I. I don't play zik, but I do play for value. I can't make myself crash tons of value just for a profit in xp - if it takes ages for the landing to pay back in value, I simply won't land. I have defenseships which I give to my alliance every now and then, I defend ingal nearly every night, quite simply put I play for value. Two or three nights ago now, my galaxy was being raided , and we had something like 35 or 40 fleets incoming hostile. I took control of ingal defense, and we managed to cover most of it. 16 fleets landed, out of which at least 3 were nearly completely destroyed, and another 4 had minimal gains (attacks that I would never have landed myself). I think we all enjoyed that night/morning. It was good fun, we tried to make the most out of the little resources we had, and it was a good challenge.

My point is, if things like that is what you enjoy about the game, why let xp-whores stop you playing your way? Do you need to get a good rank, or massive gains every day to prove that you are a better, or a smarter player? Do you need to receive testament to your achievements to enjoy the game?
It took me a while, but I realised that I don't. No matter what you say or do, no matter how you play, facts are that this is a game. If you don't enjoy it, you should not play it - games are for entertainment, and enjoyment. As much as I like winning, as much as I like challenges, I'd rather have fun without ruining my life to get it. If you play hardcore, like only a very few people do now, sleeping in shifts of no more than 4 hours, sitting awake at nights and putting your real life on hold, I think you have misunderstood something. From that point and on, you make PA a lifestyle, not a game. The sheer effort you put into it to win means that you are very unlikely to enjoy it if you don't. Is that a good way to play? Realise now, I am not playing for xp, I'm going value - but in a rather laidback manner.

On the other hand, what fun, or what challenge is there in playing for xp this round? Or round 16? It seems utterly dull and repetitive to me. If people play for ranks, sure, go for xp. However, going exclusively for xp seem to me as no better than burning out from the effort it takes to play hardcore. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't enjoy it overly much, at least. And enjoyment is what the game should be all about, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
Let me take the time to explain how this realization came over me.

Last night I was attacked by a well structured attack against my greatest weakness, corvette incoming, I quickly ascertained my loses and organized the galaxy to make a stand against the many waves I was about to face with the intension of hurting as many as I could. When I crunched the numbers down of me spending my large stockpile of resources to steal a ship class that would be rather useless to me in attacking and defense. That this gain in ships would be like dead weight, bloating my value and sitting in the base slot for the rest of the round limiting who I could attack and most importantly my scoring potential. Here is where I started to look more deeply into why what my instinct told me to do (steal ships gain value, punish the attacker) was indeed wrong.
This is mainly due to shit shipstats, in my opinion. The fact that the corvettes are entirely useless to ziks has nothing to do with xp. I hope, for the love of god that this will change before next round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
I started by looking at what was sent at me, then looked at the planets that had sent them. Low value, high scoring planets with very well focused attack fleets. I didn’t see any real dedicated defense fleets or balanced fleet composition. I saw uninspired, thoughtless planets that’s target selection was mostly automated. Normally I would scoff at such tactics, as being short sighted and not seeing the long term benefits of a well rounded game plan. But then why is it that there scores are equal if not exceeding mine? Surely in the long term I will prevail over such a limited one trick strategy?
That's indeed my chief worry about the xp-whore style. It doesn't require any thought or strategy, it is repeating, and a simple bot could probably do it just as well as a human being. This is wrong, PA shouldn't be like that. It shouldn't be a measure of how much boredom you can take, it should be a measure of a number of variables, most importantly; intelligence, stamina (not activity), and vision. That is of course, entirely my own opinion.

About having a game plan - I have used that at times, I don't like it. I do like making them, but I prefer to take decisions in the moment, and to change from one path to another all the time. That's probably the chief reason why I was never a good player, in terms of ranks. But then again, making a plan and then sticking to it for the entire round sounds very one-dimensional, doesn't it? Almost like xpwhoring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
I looked at my graph on Sandman’s (awesome site btw) and saw why not only was my plan flawed from the start but I was doomed into a spiral in which I would eventually be overtaken by a planet that started 2 weeks late. In my chart I am top 100 in Xp in the opening stage of the round and a top launcher. I credit this to my good activity and the ability to pick targets in a devious what can I steal manner. Quickly my roid count grows and I invest into several stealing home defenses catching attackers off guard. I lose roids but gain what at the time I thought was valuable ships to create secondary strong attack fleet. My value soars as I successfully steal CR and FR and even CO. I catch numerous planets off guard early using these fleets and landing attacks netting me even more asteroids. The fleets are not large mostly because of my inability to build the right ships needed to assist them in attacking so I keep saving and spending to steal from my attackers. The smaller more crafty fleets tend to land with great success as people seem to not see them coming but due to there limited ability the targets that they can successfully land on consistently are of a value lower than mine. To be fair to myself however my value was rather high so for the most part that was going to happen regardless. Now I have value but it’s spread out amongst several fleets each good in it’s own part but the sum of which is failure to be able to gain XP. This leads to me starting a downward trend in the graphs. You can clearly see my value going up and my xp slowly but surely diminishing to the 300 range. Right now I am set up for the big dirty.
Yeah, I can't imagine playing PA without sandmans. Sometimes I spend more time playing with sandmans than playing with PA.

Again, this is more due to silly shipstats, in my opinion. I'm right inside top 200 value, and well, I do find it a bit difficult to find viable xp targets, mainly because of a terrible and very unfocused fleet, so my scoregrowth is terrible. I was inside top 100 score briefly tonight, for the first time in ages, after miraculously landing two high xp targets earlier, and gaining nearly 300 roids in a day. Sure, it was cool to boast a bit to Stoom and Alki, but my planet isn't different, aside from receiving more incomings than earlier. Roids aren't that important to me, I have my share of refineries built up from early round, so even should I go down to half my current roidcount, I will still have a very decent income and be able to grow score and value nicely. I just won't finish top 100. The thing is though, it hasn't been my goal to do that, I simply haven't had any goals this round. Nothing to concentrate on, no strings attached, free hands to do anything I would like to do.

This has allowed me to concentrate on my galaxy when I want to, my alliance when I want to, and myself when I want to. Shouldn't it be like that to everyone? Isn't the freedom and possibilities of games one of the reasons why they can be so much fun? How many (strategy) games are played exactly the way the developers intended them to? To me, one of the signs of a good game is that I can come up with some strategy or tactic that the creators didn't even consider the possibility of. That's creative freedom, and I like to have as much as possible of that. Playing without setting myself a goal that limits my way of playing is a way to maximise that for myself - instead of maximising my score, I aim to maximise my fun. Admittedly it's a bit harder during this round due to shit shipstats and shit top alliances, but it's well possible. I intended this to be my last round of PA, but I'm tempted to play another round the way I'm playing right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
The big dirty.

So now bloated with value, and many asteroids my fate is now sealed to my ability to remain a hard target. This is a hopeless cause. I am such a good target for XP and with the stats being inclined towards XP, I am just a sitting duck smiling, unknowingly, for the moment where all the hard work will be taken away. Not by a better opponent who has out worked me, out thought me, or out played me. No, it’s by XP planets that require very little time and effort to run. Planets where the odd crash is not a set back but an advantage as it lowers there value even more giving them even more targets to gain XP from.
The hard work will only be taken away if you didn't enjoy doing it in the first place, which suggests that you shouldn't be playing the way you do. The fun isn't lost, the good moments aren't lost (though they will eventually be forgotten), all that is lost is the chance to have your name in a list of 100 nicks of people you haven't met, in a database that doesn't matter. Is that really so much of a loss? I used to consider it so, but at some point I stopped caring. Sure, it would be nice to finish top 100 once... To have done it. But most of the people I have played with consider me a better-than-average player, a dedicated and hardworking officer/HC, and a nice guy. I don't need more recognition than that, personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
Now this is not true bitterness, I have never won a round, I have never been part of a winning alliance (ok fury once) I have played since round 3, and given a lot of time and thought to the game, and how I play it. I have enjoyed most rounds immensely even when I finished well out side of the top 100. But I was out worked, out played, and out thought by players. What I saw was nothing of the sort. I do not blame the players however. They are doing what is need in order to succeed. They have adapted to the change in Planetarion well I have trudged along ignorantly. Perhaps these changes are good, but they are not for me. It’s not from a refusal to change, I was in DLR when they XP whored a round, but more of a refusal to play something that doesn’t challenge me. Oh I know playing a value planet isn’t easy but it is not a challenge. A challenge for me is something that is difficult, but rewarding, and with the deck so clearly stacked against you, well there is no longer and incentive or drive to try and climb the mountain. I am not quitting the round or walking away in a pout. I will continue to fight, but my heart will no longer be in it. This is the beginning of me heading toward the tar pit, to join others like me that have moved on.
Then we have something in common. I have never been a part of a winning side either. Not once. I complain about it quite often, as I would really have liked to see how it is.

However, you have to understand that you didn't necessarily get outsmarted, our outplayed all of those rounds. More than likely, there was nothing you could have done differently. That's the charm and the downfall of playing oldstyle PA. You have to rely on so much to work, so many other people to do their job, so much to go your way in order to do well. That's not only good. It means a lot of good players go unnoticed, it means a lot of people never get the recognition they deserve, and it means that a lot of people quit because they can't achieve their goals - not because of themselves, but because of others. Should a player who has the support of a 60 man alliance and a 15 man galaxy always do better than one who only has his galaxy to rely on? Should you be forced to rely on a lot of other people to do 'well', to meet goals? That's something I am not in favor of.

And why should you adapt to something that does not suit you? I mean, if you can't enjoy the game, then by all means, I understand you. There is no point in playing the game in a way you don't enjoy, or playing a game you don't enjoy. But there are other ways to enjoy it, and in all honesty, the game functions more as a base for the community than as the main attraction to netgamers. Playing with people you like, talking about everything ranging from PA, to beer, to necrophilia - anything, it's good enough if it can keep me in contact with the people I've learned to like, and maybe even find new people I like. One of my favorite things that happened this round, comes from the people in my galaxy. I've taken upon myself to save the community one person at a time, starting with those in my galaxy. I am "teaching" PA, telling stories for the fireplace, helping people find alliances and get to know each other, and I enjoy it. I have found a couple of unpolished gems in the newbie playerbase of PA during the rounds, and that's very satisfying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
The Future

I can see a future for Planetarion where there are no alliances. They will be called alliances, but they won’t be, not in the way I have known them. There will be little point in defense, so these alliances will mostly be large attack groups, much like Ascendancy is now. Fleet catches and wars will become obsolete because where is the point and gain in catching a fleet of an XP whore. Wars mean little as they will just be an exchange of asteroids between two groups of planets, and XP is far better suited towards constantly picking the best target regardless of alliance for maximum XP gain. This could lead to the erosion of the community as people no longer need to be so tightly associated with anyone group. Isolation and the lack of needing anything but a scanner will be the beginning of the end of a game that prides it’s self and survives on it’s community. I no longer feel connected to the game or the community. I maybe just one out of the thousand. Time will tell.
Let's investigate how an alliance works and what constitutes an alliance then.

First take a look at a galaxy. What do all the players there have in common? They share two sets of coordinates, x and y. If you have a buddypack, you will have chosen to play with at most 2 of the other people in the galaxy. Otherwise, you are randomly put together with a bunch of people you don't know. You will, unless you are shit, interact with your galaxy, be it by crossdefending, attacking together with them, planning, teaching et al.

Your alliance is different. You choose to play with your alliance. You can, if you have some contacts and experience, choose your alliance at will. While this doesn't mean that you choose who's in it, it goes a long way towards just that. Your alliance will most likely at least partly share the common style of play, you will be one organisation, and try to act more or less as a unit. You will not attack each other, and you will defend each other when you have the possibility. In short; your alliance is the group that you choose to play with. I don't see how defining alliance as "group of people who defend each other" is meaningful.

This brings me to the next point. What makes Ascendancy different from other alliances? That we don't defend? But we do defend.

The answer is that we don't exert control over our members, they are free to play exactly how they like. If you want to play with effort, go ahead, you'll be teased for it, but you're free to do it, and some of us do. If you want to xpwhore, go ahead, you'll be teased for it, but you're free to do it, and some of us do. If you want to planetnap other alliances, go ahead, you'll be teased for it, but you're free to do it, and some of us do.

Repeat ad infinitum. Ascendancy is about maximising fun, maximising your score in a way that suits you. It's about complete openness, every member has access to check, add, and remove intel. I'm willing to say that we have the best community in the game. Certainly the best that I have been in, by quite far. Our community prospers, and I see other alliances communities 'eroding'.

You see, in a conventional alliance (and you already know this), it is all about control. You need to be able to direct your alliance in its entirety as a unit, you need to be able to focus your ships where you want, when you want them, you need to be able to control as many aspects as possible of your members planets. This is more similar to a bot than it is to Ascendancy. I know what I prefer. Running a conventional alliance is a lot of work, running a planet in a conventional alliance is a lot of work, and it can be mind-numbingly boring. You have a set of rules you need to follow, a lot of dos and don'ts, and you have very little freedom. I think that is a more significant reason to people quitting than xp will ever be, the one-dimensional playing in almost every alliance in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll
Who knows maybe this is good, I don’t find it entertaining nor stimulating. I await next round but I feel like it will be my last if this trend continues.

Please don’t get me wrong I am not so much anti XP as you might think. I think players should be able to do well with out being in a top alliance. But being in the top 100? This should be something the dedicated and driven can only obtain. It should be something you can say with pride. Instead of being a joke as others have made it by laughing how they make the top 100 with out any effort. Think about that.
With like 1000 thousand players playing properly, top 100 means little. Making top 10 without effort, or indeed thinking is a bit worrying though. The current xp-whore style is, as I already said, repetitive and in my opinion quite destructing. I do hope you play next round, and enjoy it. Good luck.

I won't comment on the last part of your post, as I disagree quite a lot with what you have written. My thoughts on it are probably well known anyway.
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 08:01   #6
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

wot he said
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 12:03   #7
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

I agree with Troll, XP whoring is just to easy. Stats do have a large impact on it, and it is important PaTeam realises they are killing the core of the game with stats like this. I know XP players will probably disagree, but lets not forgot it ain't the XP players who defend the roid gains, they only attack and end up with a high rank for being able to build a attack fleet (which is ridicilously easy anyway). It basicly means the return of r16, no defence fleets needed, just 3 solid attack fleets and launch attacks (there isn't enough defence in the universe anyway). I realise landing attacks for alot of XP is/can be fun, but it is easy compared to being able to stock value and far too much rewarded. And with defence rendered useless you only need attack coorperations, which will remove any need or willingness for interaction. I see it even now with 'new' players who 3-fleet every day and do nothing apart from attacking, it doesn't help to build a community which is the base of the game.
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 13:37   #8
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Please tell me why you can't build a community without defending?
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 15:55   #9
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Please tell me why you can't build a community without defending?

Because at the very least it forces people to interact with each other. It may be very well and good for people that already know each other for a long time to hang around in an alliance with little or no attack/defence coordination, but for a new player? do we really want to be saying that you can do well with little to no interaction with other players? no. i don't think we do. If a new player signs up and finds he can do well with no help from others then their is no reason for them to join an alliance, to make the effort to support others so that they can in return be supported. Everyone says that the community aspect is the best part of this game, but if you take away the need for a new player to interact with this community then it won't be long before they leave, and the existing player base is diminishing enouh as it is.
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 17:09   #10
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

I would agree, the stats need to be better suited so that it is a bit harder to land and so that defence matters and that value players are the ones that matter. That is what an alliance is based on. XP is good and I like that it get's limited by the score being higher... but either the xp formula needs to be tweaked and/or the ship stats need to be less xp whore friendly for next round.
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 17:45   #11
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

I too play for value, as playing for xp (imo) is dull.

Either the formula needs to be looked at, or better yet, the entire xp system (and how it fits in--or doesn't) within current game dynamics.
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 18:03   #12
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

I might have slective memory but wasnt this to be a round where real score was derived from value? If u base alliance rankings on value it would offset the damage done by flawed xp stats over the last few round. Then a solo player could still play xp if he wanted to but wouldnt be of much use to an alliance so wouldnt get accepted. A team player could carry on playing value based in the knowledge that his alliance stands a good chance of winning.
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 18:32   #13
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
I might have slective memory but wasnt this to be a round where real score was derived from value? If u base alliance rankings on value it would offset the damage done by flawed xp stats over the last few round. Then a solo player could still play xp if he wanted to but wouldnt be of much use to an alliance so wouldnt get accepted. A team player could carry on playing value based in the knowledge that his alliance stands a good chance of winning.
It was going to be but that feature was dropped shortly before the round started in favour of an xp/value combined score system for alliances.
See http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=193415
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Unread 28 Feb 2007, 22:58   #14
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

its all about the armour of the pods that decide if its a xp or value round
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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 00:03   #15
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese
I too play for value, as playing for xp (imo) is dull.

Either the formula needs to be looked at, or better yet, the entire xp system (and how it fits in--or doesn't) within current game dynamics.
The solution is so easy, give more xp for defenses and less xp % for attacks.
And as a result, more people defending and less mass suicide
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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 00:09   #16
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

A far more pressing concern than how xp is ruining pa is how to stop troll and qebab making insanely long posts like that in the future.

Guess I'd need to know the infastructure of the code for these forums to offer up suggestions though But surely it'd be possible to slap a word-limit-per-post on them?
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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 01:44   #17
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
its all about the armour of the pods that decide if its a xp or value round
In fairness this is the first round I've seen in a while (maybe as far back as my memory stretches for rounds I've played) where there are two pods with less armour than their accompanying flak.
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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 01:49   #18
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

well zik manage ok anyway as most of them dont go xp
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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 02:11   #19
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

There are certain aspects of the game right now that are very broken. Last round was excellent fayre but this one just hasn't worked out, in terms of the stats, or politically. Ascendancy's community is what keeps me interested at least, it's a great place to be at the moment because of that freedom and the fact I am under no pressure whatsoever. Planetarion is enjoyable for me right now because of it. But I can verily imagine that in other alliances, things are not so rosy.

I support XP because it encourages people to be ambitious in their attacking, it makes them want to go for top planets. XP has it's place in planetarion, but it must always be value first and xp a near second.
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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 02:19   #20
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

stop being so god damned reasonable
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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 05:01   #21
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

hahaha this is so funny. I just logged in and checked the top planets and saw that I was bigger than the #2 planet. Whats comical is that I never had over 180 roids, and when I did I couldn't mine them. This was like 100 ticks ago. I was mining only 50 roids for like the first 500 ticks. I only landed like 2 attacks all round.
happy I didn't waste my time. xp playing is a tactic though, just as any other.
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Unread 1 Mar 2007, 18:33   #22
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Let's all play for XP !!!
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 00:26   #23
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Something clearly has to be done about XP, this is a clear example:

3 CO fleets attacking
I had 3 Phoenix fleets defending, 1 Widowmaker fleet, and 3 Spectre fleets:

http://game.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=4306

250,000 value lost for 240 roids

Just crazy in my opinion that those Caths decided to land, and loose 250k value between the 3 of them, for 240 shared roids.
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 00:52   #24
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Caj, your alliance has been doing that a lot this round too. It sucks imo.
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 00:56   #25
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Xp needs to be lowered by about 30% to balance out value play vs Xp play. I really don't want to see overly defensive stats, but at the same time Xp is ruining the game in many ways from my point of view.
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 01:05   #26
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Why are you people still whittering on about this? Some of you take this game way too seriously.

Anyway, half of the top10 are value players? by the end of the round that'll be 9 or 10.
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 01:23   #27
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Because newt, there is a trend forming of no wars, no need for player interaction. Boredom is going to take place, can PA survive another round like this. I don't think so and nor do others. This means that if something isn't done the games withering player base will speed up.

Whats concerning is no one from PA Team wants to come out and say that Xp is an issue and that they are currently looking into ways to find a balance between the two playing styles. Nor does anyone want to pony up and say "we made a mistake with these stats". Lack of accountablility leads me and others to believe that it's just going to be more of the same pandering to the small clique thats in with the PA Team.
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 01:29   #28
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

the problem extends beyond pateam into those alliances that argued for and pushed so strongly for xp to be a larger part of the game. Their combined lack of foresight coupled with extreme arrogance is also to blame.
The stats simply made a bad situation worse and this round has turned out pretty much as i had predicted thusfar.
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 01:53   #29
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

So then Phil are there plans to correct these issues in the works?

I might also add that alliance HC’s are not elected officials representing their said alliances. More than likely they are just those who have the time to dedicate to running an alliance. This does not make them stats genius’s or grant them any particular insight into game mechanics and balance theory. A democracy of the unelected then is to blame for the state this current round is in. If pandering to the audience is how PA is going to run, off the backs of volunteers. Then why not have people post their ideas for stats and game mechanic changes and have the masses, debate the merits’ and vote on a set to take into action. With the current system it’s basically PA being held hostage by an aristocratic group of as you say arrogant players.

Of course I am a firm believer that democracy’s in gaming communities are doomed to fail. So will someone with enough conviction take a hold of this game and turn it into a functioning dictatorship. At least with a dictatorship everyone knows where the buck stops.
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 01:55   #30
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Not that im aware of. Nor do i see people overcoming their pride/arrogance and trying to do so
I would be averse to attempting another move at dictatorship in the game - you saw what happened with mrbrick after all. Its too much for one person to handle and when they break - the game as a whole suffers for it because of the reliance on them. God knows how spinner managed
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 02:00   #31
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

You’re not exactly filling me to the brim with confidence here. The game is in a dire state of imbalance and is teetering on the edge of oblivion. I guess we will learn soon enough if someone can rise from the ranks and lead this game into the future.
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 02:02   #32
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

im not filled with confidence myself, I currently think the game is doomed to die out at present - and forcing it to limp on for the sake of it just ruins memories and nostalgia
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 02:24   #33
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
im not filled with confidence myself, I currently think the game is doomed to die out at present - and forcing it to limp on for the sake of it just ruins memories and nostalgia
it died some rounds ago its only us morons who have figured it out yet
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 07:36   #34
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

First off, Wonderful post Troll.

Secondly, I prefer value. I've played either as a: deadbeat running an alliance, consistantly top 100 player when I cared about my planet, or (for the first time ever) XP whore in round 20. As a value player, I've played with ever type of cons structure: maxing out amps, maxing out dists, maxing out FCs, or mass-mines. But easier to play than the rest, XP whoring is looking pretty good this round, for me personally, compared with other rounds. Well, even though I was Ascendency in round 16, I was one of the few Asc players r16 who decided to play for value instead of XP. I was fleetcaught 3 times that round without def from gal or Asc, (including one FC which dropped me from t30 to 65th within 10 ticks of final rankings) but ended up not so bad. Considering I didn't have defence at all that round, was fleetcaught so often, and played in an alliance that didn't defend, I wasn't so bad off. I ended the round 61st with 3.1m value 7.6m score, and 2k+ roids, (nowhere near my top rank), but still great considering circumstances. Playing for value without an alliance isn't hard if done correctly.

That being said, playing for XP is very easy. This round, I've spent mabye at most 20mins total per day in the game itself playing. I've spent more time talking on IRC than actually playing--the community which I find more fun than the actual game--but have managed to stay pretty well off. I'm about t350 at the moment, spending very little time on the game--crashing a lot, not getting defence, and attacking only 3-4 days of the week--but haven't managed to do so bad. I'm about 400k away from a t100 score, which is my GC has bitched about considering he's playing for value and has had to spend much more time playing to maintain his score.

It's a shame (to me, at least), but I basically agree with you as to where the game is going being more XP oriented. But I guess XP hasn't attracted new players to the game, so it's bound to die anyway.
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 09:46   #35
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

look the reason why xp is so "powerful" this round is there isn't enough roids around in the universe hoisted up on planets other than the good few where roids pay off more than the xp. now add that along to the fact that this round is 7 weeks, which i believe is the shortest since r9.5 - that's a good 200-400 ticks less time of roids to mine and xp players to sweat it and keep trying to desperately land. there's the game play reasons that show that the pateam are idiots.

stats aren't really related that much in other than that these are the worst stats i've played with since i came back to pa in r11, these are awful. appoco and paisley are absolute retards of course, but the stats are actually not so strongly correlated with the power of xp. instead it is the shape of alliances; you see this round we have 3 mediocre and around-equal alliances at the top, every round bar 16 we've seen an alliance run away with it and thus possessing big planets with a lot of roids - so the top planets were all mostly value planets, but this didn't mean that xp wasn't the same as this round or any other. it was just less noticeable, the winner of this round i guesstimate will be around 5-6mil score, last round was 13mil, the one before that 17mil or so. see my point? with only so little score needed to be a high ranker due to a/ lack of stealing gains - **** you pateam, **** you b/ roids around condensed to the top planets in smaller counts. because if a planet were to ever run away with it they'd likely have 2 enemy top alliances to contend with to bring them down a notch back to size.

about who i'd like to win? for obvious reasons, i'd prefer one of the several ascendancy contendors but i honestly don't care which out of the value players win especially since i found out caj and truhatred had an "avoidance agreement" with each other. i've never really cared about a rank except for the purpose of whining and it won't change now

the future of planetarion needs to be somewhat more value based yes, but i have genuinely got to a point where i dislike logging in. i'm not sure what would entice me back but it's definitely not a round of xpwhoring or 'valuewhoring' in a game where the imbeciles in charge's idea of a new race is combining the elements of every other race AND giving them superb salvage AND bare minimal trade costs. not to mention they took away the only reasonably fun or viable option of gaming for the small time player by reducing zik to a glorified and improved version of terran - all for what exactly?

as far as suggestions go, i've got a good few ideas about changing the game in terms of the races and xp but i hope you can all see after all my rounds of persistence i no longer have an interest in discussing pipe dreams
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 22:00   #36
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

heh

i attacked truhatred with my gal m8 and we died badly lol

and then i been chatting with truhatred on IRC and like.. he is such a nice guy .. he even offered to defend me and he is Vengeance lol
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Unread 3 Mar 2007, 22:05   #37
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caj
and then i been chatting with truhatred on IRC and like.. he is such a nice guy .. he even offered to defend me and he is Vengeance lol
War, it's fan-tastic.
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Unread 4 Mar 2007, 04:59   #38
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

lol :<
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Unread 4 Mar 2007, 09:40   #39
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caj
heh

i attacked truhatred with my gal m8 and we died badly lol

and then i been chatting with truhatred on IRC and like.. he is such a nice guy .. he even offered to defend me and he is Vengeance lol
grow a ****ing spine, jesus christ
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Unread 5 Mar 2007, 02:27   #40
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

not possible!
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Unread 5 Mar 2007, 10:27   #41
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Please tell me why you can't build a community without defending?
Ascendancy is different

We are mostly old-timers, we don't need the 'initiation ritual' of staying up all night running defence because we've all been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Other than that, NitinA and jer are correct. Value is more fun, but it's very hard to play for value with the current formulae. Coming up with a better system is a complex task, and I'm not sure that we currently have an organisational system capable of inventing something genuinely better; we have PAteam, the suggestions forum, various community liaison groups and a core development team, but I'm not sure if we have the resources of time and effort necessary to coordinate everything properly.

Another patch on the XP system won't do. Something more fundamental is needed, but the only way it will get done is if it is done properly, in the context of a plan for the game (a plan which is more than 'managed decline', the idea of trying to keep the game alive with less than 2000 planets). The lack of ambition, and the permanent deadline-shifting (big new features are always 'the round after next') is extremely frustrating to watch.

Phil^'s criticism of XP is misplaced. XP isn't the problem, and there aren't any alliances merely saying 'XP should be a big part of the game'. Perhaps because of r16, I automatically assume he's talking about Ascendancy, but most of us are reluctant XP players at best. I'm playing for XP this round and it is utterly boring; I wanted to play for value, but the solo-ish value method (Zik with 'proper' stealing) has been nerfed.

I think that the principle of XP, as a reward for playing the game (but one which does not rely on being active at certain times, or on having a large pool of people to defend you) is a good one. That is the extent of my (and I think most of Ascendancy's) support for XP. It does need change, and I don't think that there is any conspiratorial plan by alliances lobbying PA team to keep XP as it is.
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 09:24   #42
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

well, i started to ply in r13, i had a great time then,, made friend with most of my gal mates (which i have on msn), and got quickly draw the the calling of bcing.. i never consider suiciding ships for roids a tactical sane strategy.. cause once your fleet is gone, what do you defend with??

i m a value player than fight tio gain his xp through attack near my value or higher, if possible.

one thing i have seen a few times now , is a tendency for alliance to attack within there galaxy frienfdly, where they got members in, just for the sake of getting roids for the others, not considering 1 moment that those they attack also provide defense to those in that gal!!

i could name a few who had or have that policy going.. but it would fall on deaf ears, and they would deny it .

suffice to say i m against such idea as suiciding fleet, raiding friendly gals, or bashing defenseless planets.

but who will put their feet down and say enough is enough??!!
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 10:28   #43
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
well, i started to ply in r13, i had a great time then,, made friend with most of my gal mates (which i have on msn), and got quickly draw the the calling of bcing.. i never consider suiciding ships for roids a tactical sane strategy.. cause once your fleet is gone, what do you defend with??

i m a value player than fight tio gain his xp through attack near my value or higher, if possible.

one thing i have seen a few times now , is a tendency for alliance to attack within there galaxy frienfdly, where they got members in, just for the sake of getting roids for the others, not considering 1 moment that those they attack also provide defense to those in that gal!!

i could name a few who had or have that policy going.. but it would fall on deaf ears, and they would deny it .

suffice to say i m against such idea as suiciding fleet, raiding friendly gals, or bashing defenseless planets.

but who will put their feet down and say enough is enough??!!
i personally believe that no galaxy should be off limit during times of war (and sometimes at all times). its this kind of mentality that leads to galaxies exileing players to get the alliances they want so they cant be touched by any alliances out there. its cowardly and imho if more alliances did target their own galaxies then we wouldnt be faced with the top 5 galaxies getting 0 incomming all round and fence sitting their way to the win like it is now
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 15:02   #44
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
i personally believe that no galaxy should be off limit during times of war (and sometimes at all times). its this kind of mentality that leads to galaxies exileing players to get the alliances they want so they cant be touched by any alliances out there. its cowardly and imho if more alliances did target their own galaxies then we wouldnt be faced with the top 5 galaxies getting 0 incomming all round and fence sitting their way to the win like it is now

i know the top 3 allies have targetted the top 3 gals, dispite the fact they have their members in
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 15:46   #45
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

come on caj, stop defending your gal, we all know how it is in your gal everyone can see no need to deny it, but hey at least it paid off amirite?
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 16:48   #46
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caj
i know the top 3 allies have targetted the top 3 gals, dispite the fact they have their members in
oh please caj knock off the bullshit. your galaxy has lost roids once in the last 15 days. either your galaxy gets alot of defence (could be that your galaxy are a massive def sink for their alliances) or your just not getting targetted because your fence sitting bastards
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 16:58   #47
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
oh please caj knock off the bullshit. your galaxy has lost roids once in the last 15 days. either your galaxy gets alot of defence (could be that your galaxy are a massive def sink for their alliances) or your just not getting targetted because your fence sitting bastards
even if, whats wrong with that ?

Fence sitting is not something that is avoidable. What is your proposition to him ? Exile one alliance's members so they can finally get some incomings for fun ?
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 17:03   #48
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
even if, whats wrong with that ?

Fence sitting is not something that is avoidable. What is your proposition to him ? Exile one alliance's members so they can finally get some incomings for fun ?
a war game is about war, and the top galaxies dont have any real concept about how to fight as they barely do any. its all about who can get the most allys ingal to avoid getting incommings nowadays and that imho is totally wrong
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 17:05   #49
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
its all about who can get the most allys ingal to avoid getting incommings nowadays and that imho is totally wrong
'Nowadays'? It wasn't like that last round
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Unread 8 Mar 2007, 17:07   #50
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Re: Calling all Dinosaurs! Tar pit this way ---->

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
'Nowadays'? It wasn't like that last round
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