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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 01:36   #1
LordBlackheart2000
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Xan ships Major problems

Having just returned back to the game after an extended leave of 8 rounds or so, i some what distressed at what has happened to the once good race that is xan. Now i will put a few facts and figures down to get my point across.

Having played xan this round there was a trend to the type of ships attacking xan's which are impossible for a xan player to even have a slight chance of defending him/her self. which when compared to the xan's victims the stats are somewhat anti-xan.

Typical xan fleet:

Phantoms
Apparition
Banshee
Wraith
Illusions

Now for some stats for attacks & defence against each of the races

Xan vs Terran

Xan have a hard time taking down a larger or even slightly smaller Terrans if they have built enough Harpys & Phoenix unless u can get enough Wraiths & Phantoms in ur attack fleet

Yet when a Terran attacks a Xan with his BS (say 100 of each ship type(300 in total)) fleet they xan's only hope to take down his attacker is the useless Shadow which in this case would need just over 5000 of them, which just aint gonna happen due to the threat from ETD attacks. Which is easy enough for a Terran to counter just by sending some syrens along which shoot before the shadow (for some reason)(xan being cloaked & as such should be firing first due to element of surprise)

Xan vs ETD

Now during this round my main attacker has been ETD with their BS ships now if xan attacks an etd he has a chance to defend himself with the vendor it gets to fire first as its emp which gives him an above average chance to repell his attacker. Now the Etd has one steal ship which steals other BS making their BS fleets very hard to take down, but even the standard ships are more than a match against a Xan, As the Tycoon targets our one & only defence ship (shadow) & fires before we do as well.

Now we will use the same figures as before 100 of each type = 300 BS.
100 tycoons will kill 900 Shadows, so in order for the xan to defend himself he would need to be able to build 4280 shadows + the 900 additional that he will automatically lose which gives us 5180 Shadows to be built before the Etd attacker arrives which means he would need to have 10.36Million of each resource laying around just to defend against this one attacker.

Now if the Etd has managed to get his hands on some rogues then the xan faces losing a lot more of its attack fleet.

Xan vs Cathaar

For xan's to attack a cathaar its somewhat harder than the Basic Etd due to the cost eff of the Beetle vs Xan FI, so again taking someone larger that knows how to build a cath fleet becomes a lot harder.

Cath Cr attack fleets vs a xan can be very effective what with the widowmaker targeting are trusty Wraiths & the Roaches taking out our one possible defence (against the CR attack) Ghosts, which we would need around 1200 to defeat 100 of each CR (400 in total) Which of course would destroyed the first time a terran BS fleet attacks hence no point in keeping them around. Somewhat better value than the shadow as we would only need to keep 5.4Million of each resouce spareto take down the Cathaar.

Xan Vs Zik (standard)

Only viable if Zik has none or very small numbers of rogues & corsairs & thief(yes the thief dosen't target Fi but would need to be killed as well to finish off the cors before they have a chance to fire. As just 100 cors will take down almost 2k of your FI. with you losing a further 4k to the 100 rogues.

Again we have another CR fleet which in this case doesn't target our only hope though due to reasons above we are unlikely to have ghosts available, if we did we would only require around the 600 mark to kill our attackers. But due to the nature of being Zik's they would have a far better fleet for roiding Xan's with, after collecting a few other races ships.

Xan vs Xan

Last one, this is generally not done due to the heavy cost on both sides. If a xan is attacking another Xan Planet, instead of defending against a xan attacking a different race.

Summary

Xan vs Terran - No Chance to defend against Terran BS
Xan vs Etd - Even Less of a chance to defend against BS fleet
Xan vs Cath - Slim to none chance of defending against CR
Xan vs Zik - Very unlikely to able to defend against
Xan vs Xan - Just not done. But generally the best defence against a xan.

As you can hopefully see from my ramblings above xans have limited targets at which to hit but still enough to do well rank wise. But are screwed the minute anyone attacks them.

Possible Solutions

Change the Shadow's Stats

Make it CO class reduce its init to 6, reduce the cost to 1000 or 1250 of each resource. Reduce its armour down to 12 or 10. Reduce its fire power down to 16, Emp res down to 60.

Change the Ghost Stats

Make it FR class. Init reduced to 6, Armour down to 30, Fire power down to 33, emp res up to 65 & costs reduced by 50% to 2250 of each resource.

Now the changes to the Ghost dont have a huge impact due to it being still outside a normal xan fleet, but does bring it into a xan that wants to build Fr pods, plus the reduced cost makes it somewhat more worth while to build as an anti-CR (though in practice i doubt it will be built that much). As for the Shadow changes it no falls into a normal Xan fleet & as such would be worth building, even though the changes haven't improved its poor effectiveness against BS that much, it does mean that a xan has a small chance of defending himself against the BS pods races.

I have gone through the other races making small changes that help the xan but also gives improvements to other aspects of their respected races, but i'm not going into them now - due to much waffle on here already.

But i would like some feed back on these thoughts but only if its constructive and not just a cheap flame.

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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 01:44   #2
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

to be honest i was terran and hit xans with pegs and other de as flak, i had around 1.6k pegs 900 chims 900 drake 500 dems, i found there wasnt a xan i couldnt take, my point is that even with the 'weaker' option for the terran i could hit xans
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 02:13   #3
LordBlackheart2000
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
to be honest i was terran and hit xans with pegs and other de as flak, i had around 1.6k pegs 900 chims 900 drake 500 dems, i found there wasnt a xan i couldnt take, my point is that even with the 'weaker' option for the terran i could hit xans

Which strengthen's my points above that the stats are very much anti-xan, Though i do believe that the Terran BS are weaker than they used to be.

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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 02:37   #4
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

I found xan very playable. After a couple of fleet crashes I formed a half FI and half FR attack fleet. This gave me 2 fleets per night. It took some calcing but was very successful.

With the XP nature of the game I took the approach of attacking and letting myself get roided. This yielded a surpring amount of value though as with a mixed fleet only CR fleets were easy to get through (ghost sucked).

I put to you that the stats were not wrong but the tactics may have been harder than normal.

(For some context I finished 270ish after spending most of the round about the 550 mark.)
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 02:48   #5
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
I found xan very playable. After a couple of fleet crashes I formed a half FI and half FR attack fleet. This gave me 2 fleets per night. It took some calcing but was very successful.

With the XP nature of the game I took the approach of attacking and letting myself get roided. This yielded a surpring amount of value though as with a mixed fleet only CR fleets were easy to get through (ghost sucked).

I put to you that the stats were not wrong but the tactics may have been harder than normal.

(For some context I finished 270ish after spending most of the round about the 550 mark.)
You actually built xan fr? Did you find a planet you could attack that actually just hadn't bothered building whatever ship they needed?

Personally I felt the stats for xan would have been much improved by the simple expedient of having the anti-bs and anti-cr the same class. The tycoon/roach etc then has to get through a lot more before they can kill enough to make it worth landing.
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 03:17   #6
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You actually built xan fr? Did you find a planet you could attack that actually just hadn't bothered building whatever ship they needed?
Amazingly yes. Every night I found 1-2 targets that were perfect, probably because noone built anti FR. I attacked Ter, Cat and Xan I think.

p.s. yes I am not the Head of Military for F-crew for some reason... don't know why...
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 03:52   #7
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

I found that the real advantage this round for xans was not so much their attacking but their defensive capability. Apps vs etd fr, banshee vs ter and zik de, wraith being the best bet vs xan fi and spectre for anti co in cluster and gal. This however did lead to the problem that your attack fleet was weakened significanty if any of these ships were out, cloaking went some way to covering this up though.

Etd bs was easily the biggest threat to xans. I ended the round with 3k shadows, and not once did i actually leave them at base when i got bs incs.
Either changing them to the same initiative as the tycoon or keeping the anti cr and anti bs would have given them a chance of keeping some of them at bay.
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 06:36   #8
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Xan was very playable, attack wise it was fine!

Ships to use against Xans, Phantoms, Apps, Banshee, Illusion, either attack a smaller xan or a xan with less wraith, remember that most xans either attack with their wraiths, or defend others with them. So a late launch and u can often not hit Wraiths

Ships to use against Terran, Phantom, Wraith, Banshee, Illusion, it was by far my best race to hit, Phantoms kill phoenix, wraith kill harpy, banshee kill pegs, again you might have to hit smaller target, but the rewards are there.

Cath i dont think i attacked once this round, Beetle are far too good, this needs to be addressed, Beetle>Phants

Ships to attack ETD, any FI, the more the better, but i got through on most attacks.

Ziks, didnt hit much at all, Rogues were far too popular and were far too good.

----

Defence was another thing, i had alot of Banshee, Wraith and Phants, with enough Apps to deter FR also, 99% of my incs were ETD BS, Xan FR is just basically shite, there was no point in me even building it, because by the end i'd have to have about 10k even to stop most ETD BS, and even if i did have it, if ETD BS landed, id lose most of it anyway, while not causing much dmg to the ETD neway!!!

Ships stats sucked this round, but i think every1 knows that anyway
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 07:48   #9
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

And to wrap it all in a cute little nutshell, eitrades was probably the biggest problem of the round, creamed with rogues. I remember rogues having been a problem before too, though, some witty person just decided to repeat the same mistakes. No biggie, though, the cloak is a very powerful ability.
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 09:32   #10
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

this is the first round i played as xan havign played terran every round before, i found it very easy to play, just targetted etd and cathaar with all my fi,

38k phantom
7k apps
24k banshee
22k illusion

I could hit all but about 10 etd/cathaar planets with that attack fleet.

My defence consisted of 4k wraith that never got used and 1750 ghost which kept away cathaar.

My only incs were etd bs, however i did get alot of them and I got very little defence from ally however I was top100 before crashing and suiciding my fleet at the end while in a not very galaxy and a not very big alliance.

I had no major crashes just a couple of "fleet catches" on me when i had 3 fleets out and my 2k shadow that i built VERY early on got caught at home and mauled after that i gave up on them.

I think the only thing that was actually needed to improve them was to make a change to the shadow iniative so it was before that of the tycoon, it was weak enough to force you to need a fair few to do any damage but the fact it died before doing anything made it useless. I think that would of made xan a neutral par race if that had been the case, ghost were fairly good and useful.
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 09:36   #11
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Xan's were very playable as an attack option or if u needed to defend ur gal m8 or alliance, but for actually defending yourself they sucked big time, hench the spill up there. At least with what improvements i was suggesting you could have a chance at detering some of the races bigger ships from hitting you, where as at the moment you dont.

Give me the option to defend myself like every other race has thats all i ask

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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 09:46   #12
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juffled

I had no major crashes just a couple of "fleet catches" on me when i had 3 fleets out and my 2k shadow that i built VERY early on got caught at home and mauled after that i gave up on them.

I think the only thing that was actually needed to improve them was to make a change to the shadow iniative so it was before that of the tycoon, it was weak enough to force you to need a fair few to do any damage but the fact it died before doing anything made it useless. I think that would of made xan a neutral par race if that had been the case, ghost were fairly good and useful.
Then you were lucky you didn't get a terran come knocking while you were out & your ghosts were home, as they would of gone the same way as your shadows.

Now being that game does include XP atm which is crap (I prefer to play for roids & values, which i did ok with roids, but did far better with value (top 400 without an alliance) But the game become very boring for me due i'd attack a few targets a nite for a few days build meself up just for a etd to come along every 3 days or so and take all my hard work away in 1 attack with me being defence less against it unless the rest of the gal wasn't under attack & if they had enough def to cover me.

Anyway need to go work running way behind

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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 17:32   #13
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

I hit some Caths that had gone for more CR over CO, and had just few enough beetles I could squeak by.

Otherwise, it was Terran-bashing :/


Their Frigate fleet definetly needs beefing up, or reduce it (scrap the De class) and add more Corvettes.
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 19:05   #14
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Xan Fr was playable. Xan De was worthless. Why was there a whole research and construction required to build the SKs? That never seemed right to me. Not that I ever build them.
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 19:26   #15
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

In my case I had one 'cath-co' attacker (who probbaly forget about Spectres) and for the rest CATH-CR, ETD-BS and Terran BS/CR attacks.

Whenever I had incomming BS, i just ran my fleet, hoping that I would receive ingal def. The result that everytime I was reaching 800 roids (which was fairly easy to do, but took some efforts) I received an couple of ETD_BS waves and lost almost all of them.

Selecting targets was quite easy.. Just pick an Cath/ETD, check out his number of scanners, make sure your total fleet was big enough to overwhelm your enemy and launch.. Do an JPG and recall if the defender has non-cath/etd defense...

At the end attacking ETD_XP whoring planets was the safest bet, but its also the reason why it took me an couple of days to regain my roids as they had multiple attackers whole day.

OTOH, my apps and banshees where very much appriciated ingal and in alliance, for those poor suckers who had DE's/FR incomming. Also an typical xan recalled when he spotted my Wraiths.

The most pointless ship was the Nighmere.. it was 100% pointless, i never built any of them.. and because of the poor stats of the frig-fleet I never bothered to built an single frig-roider.

Tbh I never understood why a non-cloaked ship was able to shoot before an cloaked ship.. :-(
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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 21:48   #16
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Tycoon 1364
Broker 371
Baliff 300
Total Ships: 2035

Well now its havoc period this is what im getting attack after attack normally from the same two guys. then i have retal them to gain some of my roids back as he has very small but its alot easier for him to get defence against xan fi, where as for me to defend against the above mentioned fleet i would need almost 50k of shadows to take them costing me 200 million in resources to take that little 2k of ships down, plus i have accept that i will lose 12.5k of my shadows before i even get a chance to fire. Which again annoys the hell out of me...How can something shoot my cloaked ships before i've had a chance to fire.

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Unread 20 Mar 2007, 22:48   #17
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Yeah, i know it sucks, and its really really stupid. I promissed myself not to play Havoc, but somehow i logged on, and launched some fleets. Now, I got about 6k of roids and I got incomming. I still got about 70mil of res (each type) so an whooping 210milion in total, but I am not bothering to do anything with it.
I *could* built another 35k shadows and start fleetcatching ETD's (and even kill off some) but with the salvage they just built a new fleet
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Unread 23 Mar 2007, 01:14   #18
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Terrans were the easiest targets (since they cant stop you without taking huge losses and attack with their de). Etd were usually easy unless they invested a lot into their anti fi. Zik were pretty much pointless to even scan due to high rogue #s and Cath could be hit occassionally if they had pure cr fleets and no beetles.

As for defence, I basically had incomings of cr/bs all round and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it.
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Unread 23 Mar 2007, 22:23   #19
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

Just wish we would get some better testing of stats done between rounds, it doesn't need to take long, as long as you got the right people in all you would need is an hour, with 1 min ticks & bucket full of resources and a good idea of what parts of the stats that you want tested.

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Unread 24 Mar 2007, 02:39   #20
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Re: Xan ships Major problems

I also played Xan, but to be fair was pretty inactive most of the round:

My 130 Distorters kept out most random attackers/noobs 3 attacks landed when the gal was waved by 3 different alliances in one night.

I did not build a single frigate until 2 weeks before the end of the round and no DE until havoc started.

My round consisted of hitting Etd with overwhelming numbers of fi and running from BS when it came the few times I was attacked.

Xan pretty much sucked tbh, tho my one achievment was to end the round with the highest roid count in-gal.
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