Official Prehistoric Monkeys Announcement

[Ceadrath]

hey hey

i'm Cead something

i did speak to Chonox, a f-crew friend from last round told me he was joining them and if he could get an op to speak to me about joining, so i did. We had a little chat, i asked a few questions, he was polite and everything. I told him i was happy where i was, and he left it at that.

I have no problem with him then, and i'm sure noones else does for that, i did after all say i would speak to him for a friend after all.

The bit where it starts getting a bit dodgy is when we have members asking who this Chronox fella is as he's pm'ing them, which is a bit out of order.

And about imp, we were talking about the member joining pMonkeys and he saw the recrutment thread, he then joins the public channel and says

<Imperial> just came to idle a bit
<idle chat>
<Imperial> just been reading your forum..
<Imperial> think its a shame what some people say in recruitment threads

which sorta shows his intentions.

[gzambo]

Originally Posted by Rc mayhem

Actually if I remember right they did have a spy in us, proved by reasons I wont go into here.

gonna have to stop u there m8 we have never bothered putting a spy in f-crew and i would know because it would have been me who would have put them there

[Clogg]

oh dear god. Leave it to the f-crew lot to get a thread off topic :S

Well Monkeys, may the battlefield decide who was right here, cause it's the winner which will write history!

And good luck Kitty & Co!

[voodoo]

i doubt it is history they will be writing. best case scenario id say would be a dusty blog forgotten in some corner of the internet with 10 hits/year.

[Makhil]

I fail to understand what's wrong in a little bit of headhunting ? When you start a new ally it is normal to seek experienced players and those most of the time already have an ally. Chronox did what any half decent Recruitment Officer should do, contact a maximum of players and see if they wanted to join a new home.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Makhil

I fail to understand what's wrong in a little bit of headhunting ? When you start a new ally it is normal to seek experienced players and those most of the time already have an ally. Chronox did what any half decent Recruitment Officer should do, contact a maximum of players and see if they wanted to join a new home.

It wasn't just head hunting, it was spamming of people in our channel. If he wants to head hunt then fine but doing this isn't on. If I went into anyone else's channel and did this then these alliances would be understandably pissed off so before saying "there's nothing wrong with it" then think about it as if it is me doing it to your alliance.

Anyway My list of 11 never included Cead and I'm willing to remove Imp from the list but I'm also adding myself to the list of those that got offers. Due to me forgetting to set a different alt nick for the bot it was defaulting to bob, if it couldn't get its actual name and when it was under this name it wouldn't op itself. I went to check my debug logs for the bot after all if he was spamming like people in #f-crew have claimed there's a chance he may have messaged the bot and guess what I found in the log (I'm supplying the raw logs and not the parsed ones so they aren't as readable)

Jan 14 17:57:36 IRCMESSAGES: received :: ChronoX|PM ([email protected]) : PRIVMSG :: "Hi Bob, just wondering if your happy in F-Crew or if your intrested in joining another alliance"
Jan 14 17:57:36 MESSAGEPARSER: irc_nick: "ChronoX|PM" ident: "ChronoX" host: "ChronoX.users.netgamers.org" type: "4" from: "ChronoX|[email protected]"
Jan 14 17:57:37 MESSAGEHANDLER: calling internal method irc->privmsg (by string)

and the day after

Jan 15 21:07:13 IRCMESSAGES: received :: ChronoX|PM ([email protected]) : PRIVMSG :: "Are you around as I was wondering if you had considered my offer yet?"
Jan 15 21:07:13 MESSAGEPARSER: irc_nick: "ChronoX|PM" ident: "ChronoX" host: "ChronoX.users.netgamers.org" type: "4" from: "ChronoX|[email protected]"
Jan 15 21:07:13 MESSAGEHANDLER: calling internal method irc->privmsg (by string)

Now I wasnt around on these days or for about 5 days either side of these dates and the only way the bot could have joined pmonkeys channel was if I added it to the access list which would have been hard as I wasnt around and the fact i didn't even know who you guys were at the time and im still not 100% sure what your channel is

[aNgRyDuCk]

umm...if your ppl are loyal, they'll tell him no

who cares, he's recruiting, get over it... you don't like it kick their ass on the battlefield

[qebab]

Having played with ChronoX last round, and having talked a lot with him, I'm willing to call those "raw logs" forgeries. I'm going to read through my logs again, but I'm pretty sure that's something ChronoX would never write. In fact it seems more wakey-style to me.

Edit: I've read through my logs again, and I'm calling you a liar, wakey.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by qebab

Having played with ChronoX last round, and having talked a lot with him, I'm willing to call those "raw logs" forgeries. I'm going to read through my logs again, but I'm pretty sure that's something ChronoX would never write. In fact it seems more wakey-style to me.

Edit: I've read through my logs again, and I'm calling you a liar, wakey.

Fine if you want to believe that its your perogative .I know they are original and untouched and the netgamers mask suggests its ChronoX and not someone pretending to be him I could if you want supply the complete log if you want although its pretty large and id have to edit out alot of info as its the debug log and contains some stuff I obviously don't want made public

tbh I'm getting to the point where I'm tempted just to get my members to sit in their channel and keep pming people to join us. After all they seem to think its fine for them to do it, the community thinks its fine for them to do and as such its only fair that its fine for us to do the same

[Mighteh]

cought red-handed poaching !

hee hee...

someone teach your, supposedly, HC how to poach successfully and leaving no tracks.

I give private lessons, but theyre cost money. Usually costs you 1 credit per 10 lines of my wisdom

[ChronoX]

Originally Posted by Clogg

And good luck Kitty & Co!

CO?

ChronoX, Kitty will do!

oh.. and Dexter

[aNgRyDuCk]

I ofcourse didn't poach pre round 20

seriously, quit whining, it's recruitment as I said above... if your people are loyal they will stay put... if not, they will haul ass..all part of alliance command

[Buly]

Originally Posted by horn

the f-crew paradox:

"we are a community alliance that trains players to better themselves within the game"
"we dislike our members leaving the training ground"

Don't forget

"and almost every round our HC makes a whining thread on the forums that everyone just laugh at"

[wakey]

Originally Posted by horn

the f-crew paradox:

"we are a community alliance that trains players to better themselves within the game"
"we dislike our members leaving the training ground"

And thats a paradox why?

As I've said over and over and over again. F-Crew is a training alliance Not a feeder alliance. We want to do as well as we can both as a group and as individuals while still keeping a fun and enjoyable community and while helping people improve at the game (especially people who are new to the game)

Now if we were a feeder alliance then we wouldn't mind not getting the best out of people or building a good community as our only goal would be to ship people off to another alliance asap . As a training alliance though we rely on membership being a two way street, we need those who reach a certain level to help pass on their training to the next batch of people and hopefully willing to take their training to the next step so they can give back in other ways And from a community pov you need to keep a core to keep the community going otherwise your constantly trying to build a community rather than maintain it.

But we have never stepped in the way of people leaving and except for the rare occasions where something particularly bads gone on (for example theres been a couple who we upgraded only to have themselves persuaded by galaxy mates to leave us and join their alliance) they have all left on good terms and often pop into the public channel after leaving.

When we do complain on these forums about players leaving its always not about the players themselves or the fact they have left BUT the tactics employed by the alliances to get them. They are 9/10 tactics that are fairly questionable and which the alliances wouldn't dream on employing on the on other alliances but which for some reason they deem acceptable to use on alliances like F-Crew and those alliances well outside the top10. It shouldn't matter if its F-Crew, 1up, Omen, New Dawn, Hidden-a, Exil, Angels if it wouldn't be acceptable to do it to one or if you wouldnt find it acceptable to have done to you then it shouldn't do it to others

Originally Posted by Buly

Don't forget

"and almost every round our HC makes a whining thread on the forums that everyone just laugh at"

More often than not its on a subject that doesn't directly affect us but is bad for the game as a whole, we then get attacked by the usual crowd and told what idiots we are and then 3 weeks later the same people who attacked us for raising an issue start bitching about the issue because its finally effecting the upper end of the game.

Last round it was the merging for rank issue for example. I raised the issue when it started well outside the top 10 to gain ranks easierly (well actually i raised it a number of rounds earlier when no-one else was bothered as top10 alliances couldn't merge and you couldn't merge into a top10 position) and i was talked down to by the likes of angryduck. The likes of angryduck then all of a sudden started throwing his toys out of the pram the minute it stopped his alliance being #1.

If i post something stupid then I don't mind being attacked and laughed at but when I raise legitimate issues that may not always directly effect F-Crew or the alliances of most of us on these forums it would be appreciated if you would engage your brains instead of looking to take cheap shots. It may not effect you now, it may never effect you directly but it doesn't mean everyone should just ignore things that are going on that are ultimately bad for the game as a whole

[Wandows]

Tbh, i don't see your problem wakey. If you play for fun and community and to train, i personally wouldn't mind anyone person leaving on the first poach attempt from a random alliance. Good riddance if you ask me, since they apparantly weren't to loyal or happy anyway. I somewhat understand you being annoyed, but you should have a little faith in the loyalty of your members since F-Crew seems to be a quite solid alliance in terms of memberbase (and rank somewhat). You win some, you lose some, as do all alliances.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Tbh, i don't see your problem wakey. If you play for fun and community and to train, i personally wouldn't mind anyone person leaving on the first poach attempt from a random alliance. Good riddance if you ask me, since they apparantly weren't to loyal or happy anyway. I somewhat understand you being annoyed, but you should have a little faith in the loyalty of your members since F-Crew seems to be a quite solid alliance in terms of memberbase (and rank somewhat). You win some, you lose some, as do all alliances.

Again as I said in the post above, when I complain its not about the member leaving but the manner which the other alliance went about it. Theres certain tactics that alliances wouldn't dare try against other alliances as its pretty underhand and which the alliances doing it would be up in arms about if it happened to them but when it comes to F-crew and other alliances that in the eyes of the snobby but vocal minority in this game are less worthy anything goes.

And whats most annoying is that alot of these alliances won't venture on these forums so raising the issues comes down to the likes of myself and cm and everyone gets behind the other party because it isn't affecting them and they like getting in cheap shots at us to discredit us in future

[MAsta_MArk]

They are 9/10 tactics that are fairly questionable and which the alliances wouldn't dream on employing on the on other alliances but which for some reason they deem acceptable to use on alliances like F-Crew and those alliances well outside the top10. It shouldn't matter if its F-Crew, 1up, Omen, New Dawn, Hidden-a, Exil, Angels if it wouldn't be acceptable to do it to one or if you wouldnt find it acceptable to have done to you then it shouldn't do it to others

Only one of those alliances listed actually finishes regualry outside of top10...

but when I raise legitimate issues that may not always directly effect F-Crew or the alliances of most of us on these forums it would be appreciated if you would engage your brains instead of looking to take cheap shots.

So aslong as they dont frequent the forums its ok?

[demiGOD]

People arguing over Prehistoric Monkeys?

Hmm..

[Rc mayhem]

Originally Posted by horn

i can't help but think the "training alliance" self branding is simply a cop out excuse for the supposed underachievement of your alliance. (i.e. not a top tier alliance). i don't think you should be ashamed at wanting to do better at the game. just don't hide behind such faux principles when you don't manage it.

The HC at F-crew rounds ago discussed if we should try and change into an elite alliance and it was decided that it was just not feasible or something we wanted to go for. Therefore we dont feel we are underachieving, instead achieving highly compared to simular alliances

[wakey]

Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk

Only one of those alliances listed actually finishes regualry outside of top10...

Your point being?

So aslong as they dont frequent the forums its ok?

As long as you don't frequent the forums its ok for what? Its as if your running what I say through an English to Spanish translator, then a Spanish to French and then French to English and then replying to the output as your whole reply didn't make much sense in relation to what I posted

[MAsta_MArk]

My point being you mention that the tactics wouldnt be used on any alliance outside of the top10, and yet you only mention one of such alliances...

And im pulling what you said apart, you implied that it doesnt matter about the allianceas that dont frequent the forums...

[Kargool]

Save the rainforest, stop this thread!

[wakey]

Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk

My point being you mention that the tactics wouldnt be used on any alliance outside of the top10, and yet you only mention one of such alliances...

And im pulling what you said apart, you implied that it doesnt matter about the allianceas that dont frequent the forums...

Point 1: learn to read please. To paraphrase what I said "All alliances should be treated equally no matter how trendy they are, Just because they aren't for example 1up doesn't mean they should be treated worse"

Point 2: Again learn to read. I said when myself and others I raise issues that are often of no direct effect to F-Crew or the alliances of those people on these forums it shouldn't just be ignored until the issue starts effecting the top alliances like continually happens

[MAsta_MArk]

i did read it and i read it literally, and you still only mention one alliance out of top10.

and as for the second 1 i give you that one.

[demiGOD]

Who's MAsta_MArk?

[MAsta_MArk]

i am who i am and if you have read my signiture you will know i am HC of Orbit. One of those "small" alliances that wakey loves to talk about so much.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk

i did read it and i read it literally, and you still only mention one alliance out of top10.

Perhaps because it wasn't a statement aimed at those outside the top10. It was aimed at the members of this community who regularly ignore issues that are initially outside the the scope of their alliance concerns and would rather take cheap shots until it finally effects them when they suddenly start acting like its a new problem that they have discovered. The point was that no matter what the level the issue is at and if its affecting alliances of the level of 1up or alliances of F-Crew level or of the level of hidden-a (or orbit if you want) then it should be treated the same and not just used to take cheap shots while they bury their heads into the sand till its too late and inflicts its problems across the board

[Membrivio]

Wakey, wakey, wakey...

Wake up ffs! Get a life and stop annoying people... and get off ChronoX back, he may be an annoying arse sometimes, he is honest and knows where to draw the line. So bugger off!

Kind Regards

[_Kila_]

LETS HIJACK THIS THREAD!!

Oh wait, Fcrew have already done so

[Veedeejem!]

let's not blame F-crew for wakey's forum posting

[MAsta_MArk]

F-crew ftl

Perhaps because it wasn't a statement aimed at those outside the top10.

those alliances well outside the top10

i just love it when people prove themselves wrong

[_Kila_]

well, it's 2 of their HC posting drivel so...

[Veedeejem!]

I only see wakey really, rc mayhem posted 1 thing and masta mark is orbit hc

[wakey]

Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk

F-crew ftl




i just love it when people prove themselves wrong

I haven't proved myself wrong, what has happened is you have shown that you cant read or comprehend the English language

They are 9/10 tactics that are fairly questionable and which the alliances wouldn't dream on employing on the on other alliances but which for some reason they deem acceptable to use on alliances like F-Crew and those alliances well outside the top10

The important part is the but which for some reason they deem acceptable to use on alliances like F-Crew and those alliances well outside the top10 Notice the world ON thats important as thats not aiming the post at those ouside the top 10.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Membrivio

Wakey, wakey, wakey...

Wake up ffs! Get a life and stop annoying people... and get off ChronoX back, he may be an annoying arse sometimes, he is honest and knows where to draw the line. So bugger off!

Kind Regards

Strange how we offered a solution which would have been mutually beneficial for both parties but which he blanked thus deciding to not draw a line under it. So before making ChronoX to be all sweetness and light get your facts straight.

BTW ChronoX and kitty at our end we are still open to the proposal to end the hostilities although

[demiGOD]

Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk

i am who i am and if you have read my signature you will know i am HC of Orbit. One of those "small" alliances that wakey loves to talk about so much.

Well seeing that this round is named after your alliance (or you might like to think so) and with it being on your signature that I'm supposed to read, I guess I'm supposed to know who you are.

Not that people know who I am.

I thought this whole thread was about ChronoX.

Originally Posted by wakey

BTW ChronoX and kitty at our end we are still open to the proposal to end the hostilities although

You sure you want to do that?

Originally Posted by Membrivio

and get off ChronoX back, he may be an annoying arse sometimes, he is honest and knows where to draw the line. So bugger off!

Our beloved ChronoX spammed half of Veneratio's coordinates in public channels, including #Planetarion, during R12 when Arfy kicked him out for obvious reasons. Not to mention his encounters with ND, HR, Insomnia, Subh, etc. I'm sure with a history like that makes him honest and knows where to draw the line.

Of course this was 8 rounds ago, so with the benefit of the doubt, he's probably newly-improved, learned something, and gave personality growth a chance after jump-shipping, I don't know, 8 alliances at least, the last 8 rounds? And now HCing his own: I'd say, "we'll see, the eyes of the whole community is upon him", I guess.

[Willzzz]

Hello everyone. Seems i have been inactive a lot the past few days and havent had chance to respond to this thread But thought i would keep an update as to what has happend the last few days. Now. Sunday nite (or was it monday nite?) The Fcrew HC team (cm and wakey) got my HC Team (Chronox and Kitty i dont think dexter was here) To speak about all this and try to come a conclusion. Although, Wakey being the great person that he is mentioned another member my HC Team apparently 'poached' Here is a look at what was said:

Originally Posted by MEETING LOG

(20:59:18) <wakey|afk> you invited him via pm when you were in fcrew
(20:59:25) <Cm> ok we need to susspend this for an hour
(20:59:25) <ChronoX> invited who?
(20:59:31) <ChronoX> we invited Vomit?
(20:59:49) <wakey|afk> he decided to check it out with no intention to join the alliance ingame or join your channels, which he didnt
(20:59:56) <wakey|afk> anyway top gears on
(20:59:59) <wakey|afk> so im off

So Chronox to prove this wrong in this meeting dug up the logs of when we supposidly poached this 'member' of fcrew. Here is the outcome of what took place when HE pmed us.

Originally Posted by LOG OF 'Fcrew member' pming us

Session Start: Tue Jan 02 00:10:37 2007
Session Ident: Vomit
(00:10:37) Session Ident: Vomit ([email protected])
(00:10:37) <Vomit> lo m8, you recruiting for next round?
(00:17:54) <ChronoX> lo
(00:17:56) <ChronoX> yeah
(00:17:59) <Vomit>
(00:18:13) <ChronoX> played pa before?
(00:18:23) <Vomit> 16 rounds
(00:18:39) <ChronoX> lol, so not new to the game ;D
(00:18:42) <Vomit> 7 as BC / DC and HC
(00:18:50) <ChronoX> nice, I dont remember you
(00:18:54) <ChronoX> what alliance you've been HC?
(00:19:13) <Vomit> Been in fcrew all along
(00:19:21) <ChronoX> oh
(00:19:28) <ChronoX> and why did you leave f-crew>
(00:19:53) <Vomit> time for a change, fed up with silly N00bs and Wakey
(00:20:03) <ChronoX> wakey :>
<ChronoX> read this log will ya

(00:24:16) * Joins: Vomit
(00:24:16) * Joins: Vomit ([email protected])
(14:17:35) <Vomit>
(14:17:45) <[m]Dany> lo vomit
(14:17:50) <Vomit> lo m8
(14:18:01) <[m]Dany> u in this alliance?
(14:18:06) <Vomit> yep

Now. As you can see Vomit pmed us. So to me there is 3 outcomes to this log mentioned above. 1) He was sent in to spy for fcrew and Wakey is lying (still waiting for your apology about ANOTHER person you falsley accused us of 'poaching'.) 2) He really was interested in joining us 3) He came in on his own accord to spy.

Now. The other nite CM pmed me and i had my own convosation with CM about this whole thing. We came to this outcome:

Originally Posted by CM and Willzzz Log

Start of Cm buffer: Mon Jan 29 18:54:13 2007

Session Ident: Cm ([email protected])
[17:11] <Cm> tbh from our point of view the way he is acting is cos we have him now.
[17:12] <Willzzz> From what i can see, when ever you put an argument up for discusion we prove
it wrong and then another appears. Its now beggining to get like a playground debate.
[17:12] <Cm> yes
[17:12] <Cm> maybe
[17:13] <Cm> but we have a log that you cant beat!
[17:14] <Willzzz> If i could be bothered to keep this debate going on the forum (as i said i
wouldnt after my last post) i could post the log of the member wakey mentioned in the first
place. Which to me would destroy most of your aguments. But i cant be bothered to keep this
going.
[17:15] <Cm> well as i have said
[17:15] <Cm> perhaps the origional member was wrong
[17:15] <Cm> but we have more
[17:15] <Cm> and the bot which is indisputable
[17:16] <Willzzz> The dispute will be that Wakey was wrong in the first encounter. Which would
mean why should i take you seriously in the next? And then once that is detabed another will
appear.
[17:17] <Cm> no
[17:17] <Cm> the debate is your hc did something wrong
[17:17] <Cm> anyway
[17:17] <Willzzz> A HC speaking to people isnt 'wrong'. Whats wrong is then coming onto the
forums and trying to make out it is poaching.
[17:18] <Cm> it was
[17:18] <Willzzz> And forgive me, wasnt fcrew always saw as a training alliance?
[17:18] <Cm> ?
[17:19] <Cm> and...
[17:19] <Willzzz> Then i am right in saying i havw saw Wakey speak several rounds about fcrew
being an alliance to train members, and has no problems with them then taking that experience
and moving onto other places? Or was i mistaken in that speech.
[17:20] <Cm> mistaken i believe
[17:20] <Cm> but have to ask him
[17:20] <Cm> i cant comment on what he says
[17:21] <Cm> think you are skrewing with the meaning at least
[17:22] <Willzzz> not at all. Just stating if he did say that, then the members have a choice to
where they of course play as all do. And from the logs i have saw produced so far, Chronox
hasnt done anything other then offer them the option. Once they say no, the end of the
discusion. Which i said on the log which wakey pasted first.
[17:22] <Cm> so we can do that in #monkeys then?
[17:22] <Cm> we have your consent?
[17:23] <Willzzz> to pm them and ask them if they considered being a member and helping out a
new alliance? 1) Your not a new alliance to make a statement like that and of course 2) I dont
mind at all. If you can word it in the same way as a social chat.
[17:24] <Cm> well we can ask them if they are happy with pMonkeys or want to join another ally
[17:24] <Cm> as long as we dont push them
[17:26] <Willzzz> go ahead. I have no problems with that at all. If you feel you need to take
that step i have no problem with that. However, actions from an alliance that speaks about
being involved with PA since the beggining would be saw with more disrespect then a new
alliance looking for a steady memberbase to start playing PA with.
[17:27] <Cm> lol
[17:27] <Cm> sorry
[17:27] <Cm> i am just amazed by this
[17:28] <Cm> well
[17:28] <Willzzz> by What? I am not standing in your way of doing what you feel is necesery
[17:28] <Cm> you dont have permission to do it in our channel
[17:28] <Cm> i find it amazing that you have had to resort to this
[17:28] <Cm> anyway
[17:28] <Cm> get your hc to stop shouting at mine
[17:29] <Cm> this is in reference to dexter shouting at imp
[17:29] <Cm> thanks
[17:29] <Cm> bye
[17:30] <Willzzz> resort to what? So far wakey started this debate regarding chronox apparently
spamming your public channel for members. We shot that down last nite with the log chronox has
regarding the member YOU mentioned pointed members toward chronox, and was at the time in our
public channel. Then we move onto other debates. You brought this up, and now you (in this
convo) are asking me permision for you to try and speak our members to going to fcrew.
[17:30] <Willzzz> Turning out quite well.
[17:31] <Willzzz> Bassicaly fcrew tried propoganda and its backfired.
[17:31] <Cm> no
[17:31] <Willzzz> just look at the thread for example, people outside of both alliances dont
understand the arguments of Wakey at all. And now your trying to force chronox to appologise
becuase you know its made fcrew look bad.
[17:31] <Willzzz> Especially after the rock incident.
[17:31] <Cm> this convo was merely me wondering what you would resort to
[17:32] <Cm> we have no reason to propogander against pmonkeys
[17:32] <Cm> and last night was before wakey found this new log
[17:32] <Cm> this proves he did do it
[17:33] <Cm> therefore he was wrong
[17:33] <Willzzz> You know as well as i do cm, the reason why the meeting took place between you
guys and my HC team, and the convo now with chronox fcrew is coming out worse from this debate
which you started. Might be best to leave it.
[17:33] <Cm> imo we were yes last night
[17:33] <Cm> with the new log you come out worst
[17:33] <Cm> even ppl that dont like us normally agree
[17:34] <Cm> oh well
[17:34] <Cm> your turn to make a move now i exdpect
[17:34] <Cm> bye
[17:34] <Cm> oh
[17:35] <Willzzz> CM, if you want to continue the debate on the forums ill be happy to make the
log chronox has public. I dont want to rsort to that but im fed up of wakys imature actions.
This will shoot down any credibility he has left with any evidence left. So, if wakey posts
the logs and wants to keep this anoying thing going ill be happy to start again.
[17:35] <Cm> he posted them last night...
[17:35] <Willzzz> sigh
[17:35] <Cm> and how do we know chronoX's logs are true
[17:35] <Cm> that was your whole defence against our latest
[17:36] <Willzzz> of course. But thats not my decision to make. Its the communities
[17:36] <Willzzz> i know they are real
[17:36] <Cm> as we know ours are
[17:37] <Willzzz> then this debate will continue all round i presume. Id rather settle it on the
battlefield, becuase words mean nothing to me.
[17:37] <Cm> lol
[18:09] <Cm> [17:51:36] <Wakey||afk> and tell willzzz that even if i had said what he said that
doesnt make coming into our channels to leach members right. And its that thats annpyed me NOT
the fact they have poached members
[18:10] <Willzzz> I didnt state it did. But thanx for the claification
[18:10] <Willzzz> sigh i cant type.
End of Cm buffer Mon Jan 29 18:54:13 2007

Since i gave persmission for CM to hang out in our channel Wakey has of course been busy himself pming every member he can sitting in it asking them if they are members of the alliance (i might add i thought was a bit silly, due to the fact this can also be saw as the worst intel gathering i have ever witnessed). Ive had 3 people not even in our alliance who were in that channel at the time telling me hes been asking them. I have pasted that log above to state i didnt mind them speaking to them. However, i didnt say they could try and receuit them which CM later told kitty in our public channel i said. Not once did i say in that log above the word 'recruit'. I cant stop other HCs from speaking to our members, anyone can do that. But at the same time as i said in my log above to CM i find it petty, the alliance known as Fcrew, a 'training alliance' now would resort to doing the same thing it complained we were doing. As i said this debate has now turned into a playground debate and quite frankly its boring me.

Fcrew tried to use propoganda as they did with other alliances in the past. It didnt work. If i have to continue to come on here shooting down every bit of 'evidence' you keep finding i will do so till i get an apology from yourselves Fcrew. This alliance has nothing to appologise for. From where i am standing Fcrew has 3 things to appologise for. 1) Coming on these forums throwing around pointless acusations. 2) Claiming we poached a certain member which we can even prove came to us and 3) For acting childish and now trying to recruit our members in our channel.

If you still have some strong feelings toward us then simple. Meet us on the battlefield. I am fed up of consantly coming on these forums and seeing another 'log' you have appear. If you had pasted them all at the same time maybe that would be easier. Anyway. There is an update i thought the community should know. Take it as you will.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Willzzz

Now. As you can see Vomit pmed us. So to me there is 3 outcomes to this log mentioned above. 1) He was sent in to spy for fcrew and Wakey is lying (still waiting for your apology about ANOTHER person you falsley accused us of 'poaching'.) 2) He really was interested in joining us 3) He came in on his own accord to spy.

Your missing the first Private message. The one ChronoX sent him while he wasn't at his PC inviting him to you guys. The same message alot of people in #f-crew got. Also the log itself of his 'interview' shows hes taking the piss. Anyone who knows Vomit knows the amount hes done for new players in this game is immense and he wouldn't seriously call them N00bs (For the record he upgrades a significant number of new players every round, including this round)

Also ChronoX seems to have forgotten the pnote he sent Vomit asking him WHY he was logging into IRC but not joining your channels. ChronoX sent an unsolicited invite and not surprisingly someone decided to waste his time by pretending to want to join.

Since i gave persmission for CM to hang out in our channel Wakey has of course been busy himself pming every member he can sitting in it asking them if they are members of the alliance (i might add i thought was a bit silly, due to the fact this can also be saw as the worst intel gathering i have ever witnessed). Ive had 3 people not even in our alliance who were in that channel at the time telling me hes been asking them. I have pasted that log above to state i didnt mind them speaking to them. However, i didnt say they could try and receuit them which CM later told kitty in our public channel i said. Not once did i say in that log above the word 'recruit'. I cant stop other HCs from speaking to our members, anyone can do that. But at the same time as i said in my log above to CM i find it petty, the alliance known as Fcrew, a 'training alliance' now would resort to doing the same thing it complained we were doing. As i said this debate has now turned into a playground debate and quite frankly its boring me.

You stated that you didn't think recruiting in other alliances channels was ok if it was done in a friendly chat way. HOWEVER thats beyond the point as I didn't try and recruit anyone. As I didnt want to potentially annoy other alliances the only question I asked the 10 or so people I selected from the channel relating to pmonkeys was "Are you in pmonkeys", those that said no go a "sorry for wasting your time" and the rest of them I had a conversation which went one of two ways

1 - If they were new to the game it revolved around why the choose pa and their first impretions
2 - If they weren't new it revolved around their background in the game, and what issues they thought the game had, what they would like changed and such like.

In all cases after the initial question nothing about pmonkeys was mentioned and you can go and ask all those who I talked to. Its actually a simerlar conversations I have with alot of members of everyday as well as a number of bc and hc from these alliances

Now I knew it would annoy ChronoX and the initial thought he would have would be that I was trying to recruit their members and yes i abused that fact so as to show him how annoying and underhand it was. The big difference is that at no point did I mention f-crew, ask them if they were happy in pmonkeys or try and recruit them

Fcrew tried to use propoganda as they did with other alliances in the past. It didnt work. If i have to continue to come on here shooting down every bit of 'evidence' you keep finding i will do so till i get an apology from yourselves Fcrew. This alliance has nothing to appologise for. From where i am standing Fcrew has 3 things to appologise for. 1) Coming on these forums throwing around pointless acusations. 2) Claiming we poached a certain member which we can even prove came to us and 3) For acting childish and now trying to recruit our members in our channel.

If you still have some strong feelings toward us then simple. Meet us on the battlefield. I am fed up of consantly coming on these forums and seeing another 'log' you have appear. If you had pasted them all at the same time maybe that would be easier. Anyway. There is an update i thought the community should know. Take it as you will.

As Kitty can confirm I was willing to apologies for my part in making this small issue bigger than it needed to be if we got an apology also. The apology I even agreed to didnt even have ChronoX admitting he did anything wrong. We also agreed that we would get a third party of either Furball and Lokken to post our statements so neither go the chance to backout and both of these can confirm this as I approached them so they were ready when pmonkeys had talked it over.

[Crowly]

I get so tired of seeing Wakey use his training alliance spiel as a sword and a shield for whatever he needs justifying today. 'We're doing well, for a training alliance' and 'it's not that we're doing badly, we're a training alliance.'

*Yawn*

[Rc mayhem]

Originally Posted by Willzzz

Since i gave persmission for CM to hang out in our channel

A permission ChronoX has revoked on several occassions, although I admit that there was perhaps grounds for a small kick last night if you have no sence of humour, which judging from the fact I have had only 1 calm line from ChronoX he hasn't.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Crowly

I get so tired of seeing Wakey use his training alliance spiel as a sword and a shield for whatever he needs justifying today. 'We're doing well, for a training alliance' and 'it's not that we're doing badly, we're a training alliance.'

*Yawn*

Both you and horn have claimed I do this. Find me a post where I have said that.

At best your probably find me explaining that our total score is more of a real reflection of the alliance than our average which our recruitment policy does drag our average down fairly significantly. In the two rounds where only the top xx members have counted our average has been a fairer reflection and showed we deserved our top10 finishes.

Originally Posted by horn

if your definition of a "training alliance" is simply "we train our members", then it's a pretty pointless tautology to grandstand about, everyone trains their members.

but if you mean by a "training alliance", what i take it to mean, that you're alliance is on a virtuous crusade, more concerned with helping new players when they join the game and helping remedy the declining member base of planetarion as a whole then fair enough. but then this kind of alliance differentiating between what you term as a "feeder" and a "training" role would seem like a false dichotomy in relation to any kind of meaningful difference in policy.

i can't help but think the "training alliance" self branding is simply a cop out excuse for the supposed underachievement of your alliance. (i.e. not a top tier alliance). i don't think you should be ashamed at wanting to do better at the game. just don't hide behind such faux principles when you don't manage it.

In PA we basically have two (well 3) kinds of alliances

1. None Serious
2. Serious
3. Asc - who seem to be able to switch between the two on a whim

The none serious alliances are the feeder alliances and the groups of friends. Feeder alliances basically don't care about doing well and the whole aim is just to have a quick turnover of players as a way of sorting the wheat from the chaff. Traditionally they normally have ties to a particular alliance but theres been some who have fed a number of alliances.

The Serious alliances fall into two groups (well actually 3, theres a select number of alliance like 1up and exil who are able to put together an alliance pretty much made up of only core members)

The two types are Hardcore and Training alliances. The similarities between the two are fairly extensive. They both live and die around their core, cores which generally fall in the range of 20-40 members and both types want to do the best they can and take the game seriously,

The difference comes down to the attitude of dealing with the remaining spaces. A hardcore alliance will often only take on additional members of a proven level only as it increases the likelihood that they will be useful members for the alliance. In turn that probably reduces the workload somewhat as the members will normally be up to level and will need less hands on help.

A Training alliance however takes a different view. They largely ignore experience and a proven background and take the view that with some effort they can help make the players into valuable assets to the alliance and can help them achieve good ranks. It doesn't always happen that way, even with time, effort and patience a training alliance probably has a higher rate of recruit failures than a hardcore but gems are uncovered.

The important thing to note though is that the core is whats vital in both cases, if the core fails in a hardcore alliance it will struggle (theres a number of these outside the top10 each round) and if it fails on a training alliance it will struggle. And the reverse is true, if the core works it a hardcore alliance will do well and if the core works on a training alliance it does well.

[Crowly]

Thankyou, Lord Wakey, for defining the multitude of alliances/players attitudes so concisely for me. There's no room for greys in your black and white world, is there?

[Smudge]

Wakey, I'm not sure if I speak on behalf of people who have posted in this thread, people in different alliances but I sure as hell know I'm speaking for myself when I say

Shutup

Your supposed to be a moderator which means, even not in your Modship forums, you have to hold some form of credability with the community, which with replies your making in this thread, is something which is going down very fast.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Crowly

Thankyou, Lord Wakey, for defining the multitude of alliances/players attitudes so concisely for me. There's no room for greys in your black and white world, is there?

Well the fact that I included a 3rd main type (Labeled Asc) should suggest to you there is grey areas.

And yes in the serious group you do have differing scales along the axis but you will almost always find that no alliance sits in the exact middle of two of the groups. Some Training alliances will be at the far end of the scheme and only recruit new and inexperienced players to add to their core and some hardcore alliances will basically be at the other extreme and only recruit those with bags of proven experience and then between these points the other alliances can be found. But ultimately they are all slanted to one end or the other and their core beliefs and attitudes hence associate them with one of the two groups.

Basically if you plotted every alliance onto an axis you would find no alliance occupied the same place on it but there would be a middle point with some alliances on the left and some on the right thus showing the balance of their attitudes to be most closely associated with one or the other group

[JonnyBGood]

Ascendancy is really just an extended in-joke that got out of control

[Crowly]

Originally Posted by wakey

Perhaps if the likes of you Orbit HC didn't just sit back with your heads in the sand letting all the game issues, especially those that effect alliances like yours pass them by and instead spent your time taking pot shots at the few of us who do try and fight your corner it wouldn't have to come across like that as we wouldn't have to be speaking up for the lower end of the game almost exclusively.

Pardon? Does posting near incessantly on this message board actually make that much of a difference? If you look I've been a member here for ages and regularly read topics, I just don't find assuming a self righteous stance and pissing everyone off with relentless forum trolling a good way to 'fight my corner.'

It's not even like I don't know or speak to some of the more powerful HC or that I stay out of politics completely, I just don't feel the need to broadcast my problems in the same manner as RadioWakey.

We at Orbit are playing our game and improving ourselves in the manner we see fit, I understand that from your vantage point as God Emperor of the weak it must seem odd that some people do things their own way, but it happens, you know.

[MAsta_MArk]

Wakey you say you fight in our corner and that no one would listen if you dont, 90% of the time people dont even pay attension to the 2000 word essays you post. We can stick up for ourselves.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Crowly

Pardon? Does posting near incessantly on this message board actually make that much of a difference? If you look I've been a member here for ages and regularly read topics, I just don't find assuming a self righteous stance and pissing everyone off with relentless forum trolling a good way to 'fight my corner.'

It's not even like I don't know or speak to some of the more powerful HC or that I stay out of politics completely, I just don't feel the need to broadcast my problems in the same manner as RadioWakey.

We at Orbit are playing our game and improving ourselves in the manner we see fit, I understand that from your vantage point as God Emperor of the weak it must seem odd that some people do things their own way, but it happens, you know.

One of PA's biggest problems is that whenever PAteam take a look at what the community want all they see is a set of views coming from the same general direction because thats what makes up the forum and the other outlets for view in this game. However these views account for just a fraction of the community, theres at least the same amount of players who the general view of the forum population comes no where near covering.

Now while its true that the forums have always been slanted to the upper echelons its got worse over time as those willing to speak up have gradually dissapered and their replacements haven't had the guts to take up the reigns. Now if orbit choose to themselves bury their heads in the sand and just focus on themselves well that your own choice and I respect that but what I don't respect is what you keep doing.

I expect to get negative comments even personal insults from the groups higher up as alot of what I post is aimed at making the game better at the lower end which obviously makes their job harder and it often attacks their methods of doing things. However when groups like yourself who are too scared to say anything at the risk of upsetting the 'status quo' start joining in with the cheap shots because you think its trendy and makes you popular your doing the game a great disservice. So you have a choice either join the fight to make the level of the game your playing at better and more inviting for future players or stay out of it completly. Choosing to do neither and just sit there throwing cheap insults just makes it easier for it to be ignored and you do damage to the many alliances who whenever I raise issue effecting them I receive alot of thank yous from for being willing to put my head on the chopping block for them

I certainly don't do it for ego reasons, getting abuse for putting alot of time and effort into things that have no direct impact on myself is certainly not the way to build an ego. If I wanted to do that id be sitting doing what your doing thinking to myself "arent I clever"

[Crowly]

Originally Posted by wakey

One of PA's biggest problems is that whenever PAteam take a look at what the community want all they see is a set of views coming from the same general direction because thats what makes up the forum and the other outlets for view in this game. However these views account for just a fraction of the community, theres at least the same amount of players who the general view of the forum population comes no where near covering.

Now while its true that the forums have always been slanted to the upper echelons its got worse over time as those willing to speak up have gradually dissapered and their replacements haven't had the guts to take up the reigns. Now if orbit choose to themselves bury their heads in the sand and just focus on themselves well that your own choice and I respect that but what I don't respect is what you keep doing.

I expect to get negative comments even personal insults from the groups higher up as alot of what I post is aimed at making the game better at the lower end which obviously makes their job harder and it often attacks their methods of doing things. However when groups like yourself who are too scared to say anything at the risk of upsetting the 'status quo' start joining in with the cheap shots because you think its trendy and makes you popular your doing the game a great disservice. So you have a choice either join the fight to make the level of the game your playing at better and more inviting for future players or stay out of it completly. Choosing to do neither and just sit there throwing cheap insults just makes it easier for it to be ignored and you do damage to the many alliances who whenever I raise issue effecting them I receive alot of thank yous from for being willing to put my head on the chopping block for them

I certainly don't do it for ego reasons, getting abuse for putting alot of time and effort into things that have no direct impact on myself is certainly not the way to build an ego. If I wanted to do that id be sitting doing what your doing thinking to myself "arent I clever"

All of this ramble can be narrowed down to 'if people don't agree with me, it's not what's best for the game.'

You'd still seem like as much of a self righteous pillock, but you'd save us the trouble of having to read your nonsense.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk

Wakey you say you fight in our corner and that no one would listen if you dont, 90% of the time people dont even pay attension to the 2000 word essays you post. We can stick up for ourselves.

I didn't say "no one would listen". I said if myself and the few others who will speak out didn't then no-one else would.

And you say you can stick up for yourselves, well the orbit HC's combined post counts seem to suggest otherwise. You have been registered for what 18months and made 49 posts and Crowly for 6 months and has 36 posts. When you consider the amount of threads created each day on PD, PS and AD relating to various game issue then thats really not that good.

Theres threads there which if you went through them now you could both double your posts counts with your take and from your pov on the ideas, situations and such like and you would make valuable contributions to the game

Originally Posted by Crowly

All of this ramble can be narrowed down to 'if people don't agree with me, it's not what's best for the game.'

You'd still seem like as much of a self righteous pillock, but you'd save us the trouble of having to read your nonsense.

I haven't asked for people to agree with me, what I asked is for you to get off your arse and put in some actual input into the community rather than lame arse insults and attacks on my character.