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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 11:23   #1
wakey
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
Is it more effiecient to target enemy planets without exception? or is a combination of targetting and gal raids more beneficial?
In my experience the tactics of war depend very much on the type of alliance. There are not many alliances in the game with the resources to be able to successfully pull of the ‘shock and awe” tactic that’s needed with an exclusive targeting tactic, certainly not without targeting an alliance significantly smaller than themselves. Such a tactic needs to inflict significant damage on the alliance quickly as a drawn out war of this style will ultimately hurt both alliances by reducing daily gains and bringing a number of other alliances into a range where they can take pot shots at you. And to do significant damage you need to be attacking the key planets with enough ships to overcome not only the alliance defence but also the fact that you have at least 10 other planets with ETA 5 defence who can throw a spanner in the works as they don’t have their own defence issues to worry about.

If you don’t have the top class resources in your alliance to pull this off and you try you destined for going backwards in the rankings pretty quickly while the alliance your ‘at war with’ just gets stronger and stronger.

This happened a few rounds back when Rock declared war on F-Crew. Rock choose to go for an exclusive targeting strategy but when they did actually get the intel right and land on an F-Crew planet they almost always got caught out by either alliance defence and if not that galaxy defence. At F-Crew we guessed that a shock and awe tactic wasn’t going to be one either alliance would be that successful with and it would end up more a war of attrition we went down that route from the start. It was playing more to our strengths so we continued to do galaxy attacks with the only change being that we focused a little more on choosing galaxies with Rock in them. In the end, most days saw F-Crew cover their lost roids and increase their score by a significant amount while Rock were struggling to cover their losses and had much lower gains.

The only other way that a shock and awe tactic becomes viable for the masses is if the aggressor teams up with another alliance(s). Infact at times even the best alliances really need ‘team ups’ to pull of a shock and awe attack. Numbers can overcome some of the problems you might have if you go it alone and makes the tactic more viable.
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 22:40   #2
gzambo
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Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey

This happened a few rounds back when Rock declared war on F-Crew. Rock choose to go for an exclusive targeting strategy but when they did actually get the intel right and land on an F-Crew planet they almost always got caught out by either alliance defence and if not that galaxy defence. At F-Crew we guessed that a shock and awe tactic wasn’t going to be one either alliance would be that successful with and it would end up more a war of attrition we went down that route from the start. It was playing more to our strengths so we continued to do galaxy attacks with the only change being that we focused a little more on choosing galaxies with Rock in them. In the end, most days saw F-Crew cover their lost roids and increase their score by a significant amount while Rock were struggling to cover their losses and had much lower gains.
oh i am going to have so much fun picking this apart and correcting your errors

fact 1
rock hit f-crew heavy gals for 4 nights before the declaration of war to test your defences

fact 2
we landed 80% of those attacks with success

fact 3

after the declaration of war we spent 4 nights exclusivley hitting f-crew planets we landed successfully on 75% of them with significant gains

fact 4
your alliance didnt target rock in anyway shape or form you continued with galaxy raids

fact 5

during the war your alliance attacked 3 galaxys which contained rock members (4 rock members got f-crew incoming in total)

fact 6

your alliance members landed on 1 rock member during the war


if your gonna post crap at least try and have some truth in it

big long posts are al well and good wakey but if they aint the truth you can write till your fingers bleed but it dont mean a thing
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 23:22   #3
wakey
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
oh i am going to have so much fun picking this apart and correcting your errors

fact 1
rock hit f-crew heavy gals for 4 nights before the declaration of war to test your defences

fact 2
we landed 80% of those attacks with success

fact 3

after the declaration of war we spent 4 nights exclusivley hitting f-crew planets we landed successfully on 75% of them with significant gains

fact 4
your alliance didnt target rock in anyway shape or form you continued with galaxy raids

fact 5

during the war your alliance attacked 3 galaxys which contained rock members (4 rock members got f-crew incoming in total)

fact 6

your alliance members landed on 1 rock member during the war


if your gonna post crap at least try and have some truth in it

big long posts are al well and good wakey but if they aint the truth you can write till your fingers bleed but it dont mean a thing
You cant have landed on 75% of your exclusive F-Crew targets seeing as your target lists were constantly littered with none F-Crew targets. We were receiving your target list from a number of independent sources throughout the war and it was always comedy to see how badly wrong they were. I seem to recall your best night was something like 2 F-Crew planets and 4 planets in F-Crew galaxies. Actually during the war our members received about 4 times the amount of incoming from 1up than they did Rock. I actually commented that it seemed more like we were at war with 1up than yourselves.

The intel people had on F-Crew that round was pretty weak even from some of the best alliances as was shown by the amount of false claims of bashing that were made against the alliance that round and during the DDoS attack issue DJet admitted that Rocks intel on F-Crew was limited to a tint fraction of our members and I doubt many of those were correct either

Also if you had significant gains why was it that we outperformed you every day and while you were struggling to increase your roid count ours was growing night after night and we were in the top5 for total roids.

As for targeting it depends how your classing it, Ive said we stuck to galaxy raids although we did put priority on galaxies containing suspected Rock members but it wasn't our only criteria for target choosing.If your intel had been better and you were actually hitting our planets regularly and well we may have focused a little more but there wasnt any need
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Unread 23 Oct 2006, 23:58   #4
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Re: Making the War

What is this shit!
1. I was BC in F-crew when the "war" was going on, and I can honestly not say that we hade any more incoms then usaly!
2. How can you post this post, and tell Wakey that you are going to correct all his errors? Rock decleard war, and we never saw the war, only on forum! We did not really feel any heavy incoms in this period!
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:03   #5
gzambo
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey

The intel people had on F-Crew that round was pretty weak even from some of the best alliances as was shown by the amount of false claims of bashing that were made against the alliance that round and during the DDoS attack issue DJet admitted that Rocks intel on F-Crew was limited to a tint fraction of our members and I doubt many of those were correct either

Also if you had significant gains why was it that we outperformed you every day and while you were struggling to increase your roid count ours was growing night after night and we were in the top5 for total roids.

As for targeting it depends how your classing it, Ive said we stuck to galaxy raids although we did put priority on galaxies containing suspected Rock members but it wasn't our only criteria for target choosing.If your intel had been better and you were actually hitting our planets regularly and well we may have focused a little more but there wasnt any need
ah yes the ddos accusations you made and never apoligised even when you knew it wasnt anyone from rock

djet at the time was only a member and didnt have full access to our arby

your intel officer said differantly so how could you know who hit u

[00:59] <[FC]Cm> how you collect them?
[01:01] <[FC]Cm> i get told to do it every round and can never really be bothered

can we expect another large post of drivel from you soon
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:08   #6
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
ah yes the ddos accusations you made and never apoligised even when you knew it wasnt anyone from rock
Yeah, let's change the topic because you're obviously losing on this one
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:11   #7
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Re: Making the War

think u will find he did mention it furball so how am i changing the subject
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:14   #8
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
think u will find he did mention it furball so how am i changing the subject
:shrug:


That doesn't mean that you're not trying to divert attention away from your lack of F-Crew intel and onto the ddos incident.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:16   #9
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Re: Making the War

his claim to our lack of intel was from a member of rock who didnt have arby access , did ya miss that bit as well
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:17   #10
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
:shrug:


That doesn't mean that you're not trying to divert attention away from your lack of F-Crew intel and onto the ddos incident.
No, it means that he wants to stress yet again that Rock had nothing to do with the ddos attack, which wakey seemed to imply that they did. At least that was how I interpreted wakey's post.

Having been Rock in my youth, that really is the last thing I would ever expect from anyone there. No more than I would expect 1up to come visit me with baseball bats in real life to make sure I didn't play. Both are less likely than being eaten by a snowbear, in my opinion.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:29   #11
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
No more than I would expect 1up to come visit me with baseball bats in real life to make sure I didn't play. Both are less likely than being eaten by a snowbear, in my opinion.

LOL! WTF haha! I just have to say it! good one!
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:33   #12
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Re: Making the War

[Joa] please shorten your sig to 10 lines, or i'll have to shorten it for you.

Cheers.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:43   #13
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Talking Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
[Joa] please shorten your sig to 10 lines, or i'll have to shorten it for you.

Cheers.
Better? And by the way, how should you done it for me mate?:P
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:46   #14
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Re: Making the War

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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 00:48   #15
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Re: Making the War

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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 03:12   #16
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
ah yes the ddos accusations you made and never apoligised even when you knew it wasnt anyone from rock
I think you'll find that he did apoligise for making the accusations against Rock command for the ddos attack.

Anyway, i really didn't want this to turn into a debate of the F-crew vs Rock war, just a general debate on the best tactics for going to war with another ally.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 11:39   #17
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Also if you had significant gains why was it that we outperformed you every day and while you were struggling to increase your roid count ours was growing night after night and we were in the top5 for total roids.
Wow big words... Every day(!) you outperformed Rock every day during the war? I don't even think you believe in that yourself (My memory tells me that Rock gained more(/lost less) but ofc I'm just as biased as you...)

The war was for fun, but the fun was destroyed by the flame-war that started on the forum... what I wonder is if and why you're just trying to stir it all up again?


back to Ceadraths original question which is much more interesting:
Edit: Took away this part as it belongs in the other thread... /Tyroka
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 13:11   #18
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
ah yes the ddos accusations you made and never apoligised even when you knew it wasnt anyone from rock

djet at the time was only a member and didnt have full access to our arby

your intel officer said differantly so how could you know who hit u

[00:59] <[FC]Cm> how you collect them?
[01:01] <[FC]Cm> i get told to do it every round and can never really be bothered

can we expect another large post of drivel from you soon
Cm wasn’t even a HC that round let alone intel office. He supposedly took the round off HCing so he could focus on playing although he somehow managed to do alot worse

In fact go read the declaration thread and on page 2 he says

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
1) I am not HC this round.
2) On my first post I was refering to blocks forming
3) In my second post I said that tof would have attacked them to gain rank if Rock had declared war or not so not really affecting the war.
4) I said that not wakey
5) ffs read furball (showing your forum greatness we have discussed before) and Mek.
I was doing intel that round and had collected every members panic lists, had done news scans on all the obvious rock members, had collected the co-ords of all the eta 7 defence they had received, did the same to these defenders and had launched investigatory attacks on these planets with fi/co to see what out of galaxy defence was sent. We also suplimented it with intel gathered from allies although that was used more to validate our own against. And most importantly “WE HAD YOUR TARGET LISTS NOT LONG AFTER YOU DECIDED ON THEM EVERY DAY”

As for the apology, I did apologies to the Rock HC for accusing them of knowing about it. You lot just choose to ignore it because I wouldn’t extend the apology to cover the whole of Rock. On Rocks past behaviour I was willing to accept that the HC didn’t know but being able to claim that you 'know' its was not one of your members actions was a claim too far. It wasn’t an ingame action and as such you can not guarantee me that one of your members wasn’t behind and seeing as the available evidence points towards someone in Rock or someone affiliated with Rock I stand by not apologising to the alliance as a whole. If you have a problem with that then quite frankly I couldn’t care less


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyroka
Wow big words... Every day(!) you outperformed Rock every day during the war? I don't even think you believe in that yourself (My memory tells me that Rock gained more(/lost less) but ofc I'm just as biased as you...)
There’s a deleted thread which has the details of the war in it. At Tick 1 the alliances stood as follows

Quote:
Alliance: F-Crew Members: 70 Size (Avg): 22,078 (315) Score (Avg): 36,473.157 (521,045)
Alliance: Rock Members: 65 Size (Avg): 18,373 (283) Score (Avg): 31,361.388 (482,483)

This translates to F-Crew leading by the following amounts
Members: 5 members
Size: 3,705 Roids
Average Size: 32 Roids per member
Score: 5,111,769 Score
Average Score: 38,562 Score per member
And a 9 days later the alliances were as follows

Quote:
Alliance: F-Crew Members: 74 Size (Avg): 26,012 (375) Score (Avg): 56,450.158 (806,002)
Alliance: Rock Members: 68 Size (Avg): 21,894 (327) Score (Avg): 50,372.045 (740,765)

This translates to F-Crew leading by the following amounts
Members: 6 members
Size: 4,118 Roids
Average Size: 45 Roids per member
Score: 6,048,113 Score
Average Score: 65,237 Score per member
Now which alliance increased their lead, that would be F-Crew
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 14:28   #19
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

There is so little difference I find it hard to believe you had a war. Either that or you are so incompetent it didnt make a difference anyway.

So what have we learnt about Rock and F-crew?

+ Neither of you have good intel
+ Neither of you know how to fight a war
+ Your both just as petty as everyone else

Reading all this makes me sad for PA. With people like you guys 'training' new players there is no hope at all.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 14:49   #20
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

I'm afraid i'm with zoofje on this one, the only interesting thing which came out of that war was the ddos thread, which I personally found entertaining to say the least.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 14:52   #21
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zo0f
Reading all this makes me sad for PA. With people like you guys 'training' new players there is no hope at all.
I think what you fail to understand is that teaching someone how to wage war on an alliance scale is not what one would consider to be normal 'training'.

Alliances such as F-crew and Rock do a vital job in teaching players how to play Pa, but due to the nature of the players they take on it's foolish to presume that they have the same activity or capabilities of more elitist alliances.

As such their wars, if they get involved in them, are going to be of a much lesser intensity then of the better alliances.

Expecting huge changes in score or roids then is unreasonable.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 15:02   #22
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zo0f
There is so little difference I find it hard to believe you had a war. Either that or you are so incompetent it didnt make a difference anyway.

So what have we learnt about Rock and F-crew?

+ Neither of you have good intel
+ Neither of you know how to fight a war
+ Your both just as petty as everyone else

Reading all this makes me sad for PA. With people like you guys 'training' new players there is no hope at all.
Keep in mind that it was two evenly-matched alliances going to war over 9 days. It'd be a grievous mistake to assume that scores/roids of both alliances didn't swing to and fro each day, even if by the end of the war there wasn't a huge amount of difference in it.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 15:28   #23
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
As such their wars, if they get involved in them, are going to be of a much lesser intensity then of the better alliances.
There was no intensity!

Planetarion is not a vastly complex game and waging wars is a very important part of the game on an alliance level. Small alliances that can effectively target the people above them do an awful lot better than others around and above themselves. Not only in roids/score but it can also make the game more fun and increase activity/enjoyment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Keep in mind that it was two evenly-matched alliances going to war over 9 days. It'd be a grievous mistake to assume that scores/roids of both alliances didn't swing to and fro each day, even if by the end of the war there wasn't a huge amount of difference in it.
These were the figures he used to 'prove' F-crew did better. In the end im sure it changed more day-to-day but that could of been due to the random incomming from other alliances and not Rock/F-crew strategy.

Ive seen and been part of wars between two evenly-matched alliances that had far biggers changes. A bit of strategy goes a long way, they had none and that was very obvious from the outcome.

I have been part of large successful alliances and I have been part of smaller far less active alliances too. I saw (and used) mostly the same strategies in both. While you are correct in some form, the activity is far lower, you can still make a far bigger impact than you would otherwise. A defeatist attitude like yours is only going to take you one way, and it isnt up.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 15:48   #24
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zo0f
These were the figures he used to 'prove' F-crew did better. In the end im sure it changed more day-to-day but that could of been due to the random incomming from other alliances and not Rock/F-crew strategy.

Ive seen and been part of wars between two evenly-matched alliances that had far biggers changes. A bit of strategy goes a long way, they had none and that was very obvious from the outcome.

I have been part of large successful alliances and I have been part of smaller far less active alliances too. I saw (and used) mostly the same strategies in both. While you are correct in some form, the activity is far lower, you can still make a far bigger impact than you would otherwise. A defeatist attitude like yours is only going to take you one way, and it isnt up.
I'm still failing to see how a war can't end up with a similar outcome to how it started, aside from changes in value/XP (which wakey doesn't cite).

I've been part of several wars, in particular one between Vengeance and TGV (r16) that Kargool will remember well. The most common theme was that we both slipped down the rankings while other alliances (who were busy doing gal raids) rose past us.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 16:10   #25
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

The war between F-Crew and ROCK reminded me about that movie about the moonlanding claiming that the moonlanding was filmed in a hollywood studio.. Nothing really really happend...
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 16:38   #26
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

No-ones saying it was an intense war, infact as I’ve stated here we barely noticed any incoming from them. We had more incoming from 1up the days before, during and after the war than we saw from Rock and the 1up incoming wasn’t even that unusually large (accounted for around 5% more of our nightly incoming that a few weeks before and a few weeks after the war). Its hard to really get motivated to go all out to attack an alliance which claims to be at war but isn’t doing any real damage especially if doing so means sacrificing fleets that should be used to defend your usual incoming just to smash another alliance into oblivion, especially when that alliance is a like minded alliance who you don’t want to really damage.

Could we have inflicted more damage on Rock, for sure but the only gainers would have been 1up and the other alliances that attacked us in their normal routine as they would have had less resistance to their attacks and it would have been a situation like furballs talking about where both alliances get weaker

Also I think the score gains on our part dont show the full picture
  • there the ‘limit’ issue which masks the score gains slightly. While we added 1 more member in that period than Rock the alliance score system was link this rounds but with the top70 counting. Our 4 new members didn’t ‘add’ any score where as Rock’s 3 did which probably accounted for at least 400-500k (just a guess the members could have been smaller)
  • Before the war also we had 4 members on the brink of leaving. 2 of them were worth a total of around 2million and came as a pair, their galaxy mates had been working on them for weeks and we knew they were considering it and despite trying to persuade them they left. The other 2 who left were worth around 1.8mill and were long standing BC’s who had already told us they were leaving next round for a new challenge but were given the age old “now or never” ultimatum by their first choice alliance and left. That’s ~3.8mill lost in members alone. which we were going to lose anyway no matter the alliances war status. We recovered just over 300k of that with our replacements. While I know Rock did also lose some members to ND I don’t know how much they did lose
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 18:39   #27
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
<snip (one of those (too) long posts again from you wakey)>
It wasn’t an ingame action and as such you can not guarantee me that one of your members wasn’t behind and seeing as the available evidence points towards someone in Rock or someone affiliated with Rock I stand by not apologising to the alliance as a whole. If you have a problem with that then quite frankly I couldn’t care less
I can agree that Rock HC can't claim that none of their/our members did it. But(!) get in your mind that there were NO evidence at all (that we've received at least) pointing towards anyone affiliated with Rock... only a motive.
...and if I'm being nice some circumstances.

An analogy: I dislike Bush (president of United States), hence I have a motive to kill him. If I go to the USA, and even Washington and the White house and Bush gets killed the same day I doubt anyone would say there are evidence that I killed him... But there is circumstances and motive. I cannot be excluded from the list of suspects, but there's no evidence! See the difference?
I think this is enough on this matter. This discussion and the accustations took all the fun out of the war for me... Maybe that was why you made accusations and claimed evidence although (almost) noone agreed with you. I won't debate here on AD more on this matter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
There’s a deleted thread which has the details of the war in it. At Tick 1 the alliances stood as follows
Quote:
Originally Posted by some thread that I'm gonna assume exists
Quote:Alliance: F-Crew Members: 70 Size (Avg): 22,078 (315) Score (Avg): 36,473.157 (521,045)
Alliance: Rock Members: 65 Size (Avg): 18,373 (283) Score (Avg): 31,361.388 (482,483)

This translates to F-Crew leading by the following amounts
Members: 5 members
Size: 3,705 Roids
Average Size: 32 Roids per member
Score: 5,111,769 Score
Average Score: 38,562 Score per member
And a 9 days later the alliances were as follows
Quote:
Quote:Alliance: F-Crew Members: 74 Size (Avg): 26,012 (375) Score (Avg): 56,450.158 (806,002)
Alliance: Rock Members: 68 Size (Avg): 21,894 (327) Score (Avg): 50,372.045 (740,765)

This translates to F-Crew leading by the following amounts
Members: 6 members
Size: 4,118 Roids
Average Size: 45 Roids per member
Score: 6,048,113 Score
Average Score: 65,237 Score per member
The war went on for more than 9 days... and(!) even with these nice numbers you can't proove that you outperformed us every day... For that you would need numbers for every day!!!



ok over to your numbers :

well firstly... look at the first numbers you present:
F-Crew Members: 70 Size (Avg): 22,078 (315)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
the alliance score system was link this rounds but with the top70 counting
top70 counting... so the average for your roids when having 70 members should be correct... 315*70 = 22050
Very weird. it says "Size: 22078". This leads me to question your source of these numbers... But even ignoring that (some typo or something) :


Percentually on size (as you say that avg isn't correct):
F-Crew : 22078 -> 26012 => approx 17.82% increase
Rock : 18373 -> 21894 => approx 19.16% increase

and on Score:
F-Crew : 36,473.157 -> 56,450.158 => approx 54,77% increase
Rock : 31,361.388 -> 50,372.045 => approx 60,68% increase

and hence I've shown that you can turn statistics to your own advantage if you want (percentual calculating is common in todays soceiety as it according to some shows more fair numbers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Now which alliance increased their lead, that would be F-Crew
Hmm, percentually you did not... so...
anyways there are many more sides to a war then just statistics
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 19:26   #28
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by [Joa]
What is this shit!
1. I was BC in F-crew when the "war" was going on, and I can honestly not say that we hade any more incoms then usaly!
2. How can you post this post, and tell Wakey that you are going to correct all his errors? Rock decleard war, and we never saw the war, only on forum! We did not really feel any heavy incoms in this period!
1 JAO YOU ARE NOTHING AND YOU WERE NOTHING.
Just an inactive cnut trying to look important.

You have no idea what happened 4 rounds ago in a specific week
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 19:39   #29
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyroka
The war went on for more than 9 days... and(!) even with these nice numbers you can't proove that you outperformed us every day... For that you would need numbers for every day!!!
I hate to interject, but wakey didn't claim that he outperformed you every day - merely over the course of the war from beginning to end.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 20:20   #30
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by General1
1 JAO YOU ARE NOTHING AND YOU WERE NOTHING.
Just an inactive cnut trying to look important.

You have no idea what happened 4 rounds ago in a specific week
Are we talking about the same thing?

4 rounds ago would make it round 15.

The Rock vs. F-crew war happened in round 17.

And i'd argue that Joa was in an ideal position to judge the level of incoming.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 20:27   #31
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I hate to interject, but wakey didn't claim that he outperformed you every day - merely over the course of the war from beginning to end.
I hate to interject (well not in this case ;p), but he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Also if you had significant gains why was it that we outperformed you every day and while you were struggling to increase your roid count ours was growing night after night and we were in the top5 for total roids.
Note: The emphasis (bold) in the quote is done by me... Also it's only a fraction of wakeys full post (post #3 in this thread).
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 20:32   #32
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyroka
I hate to interject (well not in this case ;p), but he did.


Note: The emphasis (bold) in the quote is done by me... Also it's only a fraction of wakeys full post (post #3 in this thread).
Oh well. Serves me right for only checking up to 10 posts back, not that I really care.
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 20:40   #33
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
Are we talking about the same thing?

4 rounds ago would make it round 15.

The Rock vs. F-crew war happened in round 17.
General1 has just been sleeping too much lately I would guess. He still thinks that sleeping 8 hours means 2 or 3 nights and thinks that more rounds has been played since he quit.

And does it matter who outperformed most days when it seems that hardly anything really happened and the situation after that 9 day period propably would have been the same even without that so called "war".
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 20:58   #34
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by ^Miksu^
General1 has just been sleeping too much lately I would guess. He still thinks that sleeping 8 hours means 2 or 3 nights and thinks that more rounds has been played since he quit.

And does it matter who outperformed most days when it seems that hardly anything really happened and the situation after that 9 day period propably would have been the same even without that so called "war".
Sleep is good.
Playing no PA anymore is even better
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Unread 24 Oct 2006, 21:52   #35
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Oh well. Serves me right for only checking up to 10 posts back, not that I really care.
Why do you post then?
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Unread 25 Oct 2006, 10:50   #36
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Can everyone stop with calling fcrew/rock training alliances? We had a thread about this earlier, and we all concluded (except wakey) that they just use that as excuse to not get hit so much and to explain bad rankings, and boast when their rank is higher
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Unread 25 Oct 2006, 12:15   #37
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
Can everyone stop with calling fcrew/rock training alliances? We had a thread about this earlier, and we all concluded (except wakey) that they just use that as excuse to not get hit so much and to explain bad rankings, and boast when their rank is higher
What?

Way to change the subject. Nobody mentioned that fcrew/Rock were training alliances in this thread.

But whatever you want to call them, it cannot be denied that they take a much higher percentage of new or returning players then most other allies, and as such they could be classed as a 'training alliance'.

What wakey was saying in the last thread (iirc) was that fcrew was still an alliance in its own right, but just that it had a much higher percentage of new players, which would mean he sort of agrees with your point.
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Unread 25 Oct 2006, 14:19   #38
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Not being able to recruit good players or organize an alliance does not make you a training alliance. wakey has always used the "training alliance" as an excuse for the fact that F Crew are a poor alliance. It's similar to how your old mates IPC used to pretend to be a force for good and training alliance, when really they just weren't very good and irrelevant after the first half of Round 2.

Alliances like this are usually run by self important cretins who use the the phrase "training alliances" to play up their own delusions of grandeur. They hope that people will respect them for training new players when in reality they're doing nothing of the sort, most of their alliance is made up of casual (bad) players who've played a few rounds and "training alliance" is just a mask for badly organized. Harsh but pretty fair in my opinion.
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Unread 25 Oct 2006, 15:07   #39
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
Not being able to recruit good players or organize an alliance does not make you a training alliance. wakey has always used the "training alliance" as an excuse for the fact that F Crew are a poor alliance. It's similar to how your old mates IPC used to pretend to be a force for good and training alliance, when really they just weren't very good and irrelevant after the first half of Round 2.

Alliances like this are usually run by self important cretins who use the the phrase "training alliances" to play up their own delusions of grandeur. They hope that people will respect them for training new players when in reality they're doing nothing of the sort, most of their alliance is made up of casual (bad) players who've played a few rounds and "training alliance" is just a mask for badly organized. Harsh but pretty fair in my opinion.
couldnt have said it better myself
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Unread 25 Oct 2006, 16:05   #40
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
Not being able to recruit good players or organize an alliance does not make you a training alliance. wakey has always used the "training alliance" as an excuse for the fact that F Crew are a poor alliance. It's similar to how your old mates IPC used to pretend to be a force for good and training alliance, when really they just weren't very good and irrelevant after the first half of Round 2.

Alliances like this are usually run by self important cretins who use the the phrase "training alliances" to play up their own delusions of grandeur. They hope that people will respect them for training new players when in reality they're doing nothing of the sort, most of their alliance is made up of casual (bad) players who've played a few rounds and "training alliance" is just a mask for badly organized. Harsh but pretty fair in my opinion.
You mean like hardcore alliances are filled with insecure retards that have to put others down just to make themselves feel special?

And do you really think I’d want the respect from people like yourself, I mean why would anyone be so insecure that they need to gain the respect of people like yourself to feel worthwhile. And besides you would have to be extremely stupid to think this is the place to gain respect unless you’re willing to be completely elitist and to backstab other alliances left right and centre (except ofc the alliance containing the majority of the ‘celebs’ who you need to cosy up to). So before you start taring everyone with the same brush please get a clue and realise that most people who run ‘training alliances’ or contribute to a ‘training alliance’ because they believe that doing something to help the game grow (especially at the entry point for most players) and doing well/having fun isn’t mutually exclusive.

People put way to much weight on training alliance tag anyway. It isn’t a ready made excuse and it isn’t saying we aren’t a real alliance. It’s simply a statement of recruitment focus and policy when it comes to supplementing our core. We could play the round on our fairly solid core of 40ish members and do earn respect for our excellent average score in the way that the like of SiN and ToT have in the past or TGV seem to be this round but we make a choice not to go the hardcore route and instead use our surplus room to take a training route where anyone no matter what score or experience they have stands an equal chance of getting in.

And you can call us a poor alliance if you want hicks, that’s your prerogative but we can’t be that bad. Other so called better alliances are constantly after both our command and our members, we haven’t ever imploded no matter the pressure we were under unlike other alliance and our retention rate suggests our members feel we are doing a good job. Not to mention the fact we have played every single round and are still able to attract members (and receive regular referrals from respected people in this community) and the fact for the last 5 rounds we have finished the round in the top10 so I don’t think we can be that bad. Ok we are no Fury/1up but then not many alliances are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Error
couldnt have said it better myself
There’s this old saying that goes something like “People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones” which is apt for you. You sit there wearing your “proud to be Subh” signature while agreeing with hicks that those running these alliances are “self important cretins” with “delusions of grandeur”. If there is one alliance in PA that the phrases “self important cretins” and “delusions of grandeur” are most fitting, it’s Subh. An alliance who had certain parties in their command who’s self importance managed to rip the alliance into two leaving both parts weaker than the whole
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Unread 25 Oct 2006, 17:07   #41
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Hey hicks... make sure you're well stocked up on toilet paper.

I figure you're going to need it after you're done pissing all over the little guys here

Geesh.
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Unread 25 Oct 2006, 22:39   #42
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
Not being able to recruit good players or organize an alliance does not make you a training alliance. wakey has always used the "training alliance" as an excuse for the fact that F Crew are a poor alliance. It's similar to how your old mates IPC used to pretend to be a force for good and training alliance, when really they just weren't very good and irrelevant after the first half of Round 2.

Alliances like this are usually run by self important cretins who use the the phrase "training alliances" to play up their own delusions of grandeur. They hope that people will respect them for training new players when in reality they're doing nothing of the sort, most of their alliance is made up of casual (bad) players who've played a few rounds and "training alliance" is just a mask for badly organized. Harsh but pretty fair in my opinion.
Lots of (ex) top players have a Background in F-crew, those players werent accepted into other alliances at the stage when they started playing.
Several rounds back when I was helping out f-crew 1 round, I did a little survey at the start of a new round.
Lots of players were (20 out of 75ingame member) were approached by at that stage alliances out of the top7.

During that round we had a total of 125 players in the alliance on and going, and out of those 125 60% never was in an alliance before they joined F-fcrew.

Ofcourse there is a core in fcrew which is there for years already, these guys don't play for score though but for fun.
F-crew just wants a round without being in a war, well let them, that was nothing to do with crap people.
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Unread 26 Oct 2006, 00:30   #43
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Both are less likely than being eaten by a snowbear.
The likeliness of being eaten by a snowbear is very high if you hit it on the nose!
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Unread 26 Oct 2006, 03:06   #44
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Re: Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
The likeliness of being eaten by a snowbear is very high if you hit it on the nose!
Let's say it is less than being eaten by a snowbear (that you did not hit on the nose) in Sahara.
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Unread 26 Oct 2006, 04:20   #45
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
We could play the round on our fairly solid core of 40ish members and do earn respect for our excellent average score in the way that the like of SiN and ToT have in the past or TGV seem to be this round but we make a choice not to go the hardcore route and instead use our surplus room to take a training route where anyone no matter what score or experience they have stands an equal chance of getting in.
I'd just like to point out that we're in no way playing "hardcore" this round - and have taken in a number of new & returning players who haven't played in while...including a number who had scores of less than 10% of our average & were still in protection when they joined. In fact the only people we've turned away were done so for reasons that had nothing to do with their score or experience.
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Unread 26 Oct 2006, 07:47   #46
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
You mean like hardcore alliances are filled with insecure retards that have to put others down just to make themselves feel special?

And do you really think I’d want the respect from people like yourself, I mean why would anyone be so insecure that they need to gain the respect of people like yourself to feel worthwhile. And besides you would have to be extremely stupid to think this is the place to gain respect unless you’re willing to be completely elitist and to backstab other alliances left right and centre (except ofc the alliance containing the majority of the ‘celebs’ who you need to cosy up to). So before you start taring everyone with the same brush please get a clue and realise that most people who run ‘training alliances’ or contribute to a ‘training alliance’ because they believe that doing something to help the game grow (especially at the entry point for most players) and doing well/having fun isn’t mutually exclusive.

People put way to much weight on training alliance tag anyway. It isn’t a ready made excuse and it isn’t saying we aren’t a real alliance. It’s simply a statement of recruitment focus and policy when it comes to supplementing our core. We could play the round on our fairly solid core of 40ish members and do earn respect for our excellent average score in the way that the like of SiN and ToT have in the past or TGV seem to be this round but we make a choice not to go the hardcore route and instead use our surplus room to take a training route where anyone no matter what score or experience they have stands an equal chance of getting in.

And you can call us a poor alliance if you want hicks, that’s your prerogative but we can’t be that bad. Other so called better alliances are constantly after both our command and our members, we haven’t ever imploded no matter the pressure we were under unlike other alliance and our retention rate suggests our members feel we are doing a good job. Not to mention the fact we have played every single round and are still able to attract members (and receive regular referrals from respected people in this community) and the fact for the last 5 rounds we have finished the round in the top10 so I don’t think we can be that bad. Ok we are no Fury/1up but then not many alliances are.



There’s this old saying that goes something like “People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones” which is apt for you. You sit there wearing your “proud to be Subh” signature while agreeing with hicks that those running these alliances are “self important cretins” with “delusions of grandeur”. If there is one alliance in PA that the phrases “self important cretins” and “delusions of grandeur” are most fitting, it’s Subh. An alliance who had certain parties in their command who’s self importance managed to rip the alliance into two leaving both parts weaker than the whole
The problem is wakey that Hicks in some way is right (if slightly arrogantly put).

I was Blackdeath HC round 3 and we trained vast amounts of players, however if we considered them not to be active enough or did not follow HC rules they were kicked. At the end of round 3 we were big enough to make some decent attacks on fury which few alliances could actually say or do at the end of round 3.

However the majority of training alliances did not take this approach and were left with players who come online the minimum amount of hours a day and just don't care. The alliances these players are attached too usually have reasonably poor organisation, crap intel and generally badly run. The type of players usually attracted to such a position are people using it for a power trip.

What you have to remember about the arogant self important members of the big alliances is that they have all started in the smaller alliances. Few were in since round 1 and even fewer were started as new players within one of the biggies straight away as a first alliance.

You retention rate to me suggests you have a few players who are happy with there lot and are probably more social players as opposed to PA hardcore, but try not to let your own arrogance and bias against the bigger alliances mask a sensible discussion
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Unread 26 Oct 2006, 11:28   #47
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
The problem is wakey that Hicks in some way is right (if slightly arrogantly put).

I was Blackdeath HC round 3 and we trained vast amounts of players, however if we considered them not to be active enough or did not follow HC rules they were kicked. At the end of round 3 we were big enough to make some decent attacks on fury which few alliances could actually say or do at the end of round 3.

However the majority of training alliances did not take this approach and were left with players who come online the minimum amount of hours a day and just don't care. The alliances these players are attached too usually have reasonably poor organisation, crap intel and generally badly run. The type of players usually attracted to such a position are people using it for a power trip.

What you have to remember about the arogant self important members of the big alliances is that they have all started in the smaller alliances. Few were in since round 1 and even fewer were started as new players within one of the biggies straight away as a first alliance.

You retention rate to me suggests you have a few players who are happy with there lot and are probably more social players as opposed to PA hardcore, but try not to let your own arrogance and bias against the bigger alliances mask a sensible discussion
  1. ‘Power trip alliances’ aren’t something which is restricted to the lower half of the game. The whole ‘Leadership’ thing is something which attracts just as many people who have an ego and a ‘dictator’ mentality as it does people who are Leaders and aren’t being driven by a desire for power. I mean how many ‘top10’ contenders have we seen that ride on other alliance coattails only to disband when things don’t go completely to plan. Its too many to count and these alliances rarely have any real leadership qualities in them, they lack structure, they aren’t run very well and tactically cant think for themselves

  2. Most alliance no matter the status will generally kick a member for repeated bad behaviour. Do they kick on the first incident, probably not but I doubt the most hardcore alliances do that either. Also inactivity will generally see you removed from the alliance and while a ‘training’ alliance might be more lenient and give people a bit more time than they would get elsewhere if they don’t contribute they will get kicked as your not going to keep wasting resources on someone who doesn’t give back. At F-Crew all our new recruits go through a trial of 5-7 days where if they don’t show some desire to help themselves they will be removed without warning. For people who pass the trail and then go inactive without informing us we will generally Mail them warning of their low activity and ask for a reply stating why they have become inactive so we can try and find a way to help them improve it. If we don’t get a response/Reason isn’t deemed valid/the fail to live up to promises after we talk to them then we will generally do the following
    1) Defence Blacklist them forcing them to get online and contributing if they want to get defence
    2) Reduce their access level so they cant join attacks without getting online and talking to a hc/bc

  3. Pretty much any ‘training’ alliance that’s able to build up some kind of ‘substance’ the alliance and continues to return round after round isn’t going to be someone on a power trip. The amount of work it takes on a day to day basis just to keep the alliance going is immense and is quite possibly more intense than running a top alliance. If your after a power trip your after the glory without any graft.

  4. The fact that most players in top alliances have been in ‘smaller’ alliances is often what’s most disappointing about their attitude. They know first hand the struggles lower down and if they have gone through the ranks of any half decent alliance that gives new players a chance they know the time and effort that the people running them put in to try and help them be better players. And then a few rounds down the line they start belittling these alliances and the smaller players in general. Some people need to remember where they came from and stop acting like retards. They know its tough and being belittled by those higher up who act like they have always been in the upper half of the game is moral sapping so they should know better. If they have something to say about the alliances tactics or such like then fine say it especially if you can be constructive but if people are just going to resort to personal insults then it helps no-one. I mean just look at The_fish's unuseful comments on the eXilition thread

  5. If your part of a core of a Training alliance then trust me your unlikely to be a ‘social’ player as such. Yes you may prefer the environment and the type of challenge such an alliance gives but they are as dedicated, focused and knowledgeable as anyone. Infact when we have lost members of the core to more hardcore alliances wanting an ‘easier’ and less ‘intense’ time has often been a chief reason as being a small fish in a big pond offers you more ‘freedom’
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Unread 27 Oct 2006, 06:21   #48
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
  1. ‘Power trip alliances’ aren’t something which is restricted to the lower half of the game. The whole ‘Leadership’ thing is something which attracts just as many people who have an ego and a ‘dictator’ mentality as it does people who are Leaders and aren’t being driven by a desire for power. I mean how many ‘top10’ contenders have we seen that ride on other alliance coattails only to disband when things don’t go completely to plan. Its too many to count and these alliances rarely have any real leadership qualities in them, they lack structure, they aren’t run very well and tactically cant think for themselves

  2. Most alliance no matter the status will generally kick a member for repeated bad behaviour. Do they kick on the first incident, probably not but I doubt the most hardcore alliances do that either. Also inactivity will generally see you removed from the alliance and while a ‘training’ alliance might be more lenient and give people a bit more time than they would get elsewhere if they don’t contribute they will get kicked as your not going to keep wasting resources on someone who doesn’t give back. At F-Crew all our new recruits go through a trial of 5-7 days where if they don’t show some desire to help themselves they will be removed without warning. For people who pass the trail and then go inactive without informing us we will generally Mail them warning of their low activity and ask for a reply stating why they have become inactive so we can try and find a way to help them improve it. If we don’t get a response/Reason isn’t deemed valid/the fail to live up to promises after we talk to them then we will generally do the following
    1) Defence Blacklist them forcing them to get online and contributing if they want to get defence
    2) Reduce their access level so they cant join attacks without getting online and talking to a hc/bc

  3. Pretty much any ‘training’ alliance that’s able to build up some kind of ‘substance’ the alliance and continues to return round after round isn’t going to be someone on a power trip. The amount of work it takes on a day to day basis just to keep the alliance going is immense and is quite possibly more intense than running a top alliance. If your after a power trip your after the glory without any graft.

  4. The fact that most players in top alliances have been in ‘smaller’ alliances is often what’s most disappointing about their attitude. They know first hand the struggles lower down and if they have gone through the ranks of any half decent alliance that gives new players a chance they know the time and effort that the people running them put in to try and help them be better players. And then a few rounds down the line they start belittling these alliances and the smaller players in general. Some people need to remember where they came from and stop acting like retards. They know its tough and being belittled by those higher up who act like they have always been in the upper half of the game is moral sapping so they should know better. If they have something to say about the alliances tactics or such like then fine say it especially if you can be constructive but if people are just going to resort to personal insults then it helps no-one. I mean just look at The_fish's unuseful comments on the eXilition thread

  5. If your part of a core of a Training alliance then trust me your unlikely to be a ‘social’ player as such. Yes you may prefer the environment and the type of challenge such an alliance gives but they are as dedicated, focused and knowledgeable as anyone. Infact when we have lost members of the core to more hardcore alliances wanting an ‘easier’ and less ‘intense’ time has often been a chief reason as being a small fish in a big pond offers you more ‘freedom’
I agree in some way with what you say, but there are a few things. Firstly those in smaller alliances must be there for a reason and I seriously doubt that the reason is training. You can train newer players from anywhere - not necessarily from within the alliance. Also if you look at the levels of defence available and the likelihood of the types of score someone will get with a smaller alliance than you would get with an "elite" alliance, you have to have certain things. One is you are happy with your alliance mates so will stick with it, or you are happy with the amount of hours you play so will stay as you are. So why do people manage this type of people? Part of the answer has to be the social and the lack of activity. However, part of me has to say its part of the credence involved with managing an alliance as oppose to "just" being a member.

I never said that these people running the alliances were arrogant, just that they are powermongers which does not nexessarily mean arrogant, nasty or manipulative (but probably the latter).

You are also assuming that when I talk about powertripping ego's that I am talking about with members (which seems to be your post bias). You have an arrogance - maybe not with your members, but on the boards and with perhaps the way you talk to others on irc? Again, I have not dealt with you but your posts are usually littered with anti-big alliance propaganda and a bitterness I usually reserve for Kj

I also don't think that players forget there roots when they make comments about smaller alliances - I would say that most remember there roots. However, that does not excuse "slagging off" a smaller alliance, however, that has been the way of AD since round 2 and I doubt that will ever change. The trouble is the majority of players will look back and say "I remember this so this must still be the fact", in my opinion is that with this approach the apple never falls that far away from the tree. They are only able to do this because they compare there new alliance with there old alliance which is why they should not "slag off" any smaller alliance. The smaller alliance will never be a exilition or a 1up, nor do they try to be, so regardless of the reasons for that alliance to be set up or run, at least give them respect for what they do.

Finally I never said your members were not knowledgeable, just social. They probably spend more time on irc talking and having a laugh than actually playing the game. This is not a bad thing, just that they will often have a different in game attitude to a "serious" player who will spend each tick religiously checking there planet and making decisions accordingly (which may take calculations and even strategic ideas into account). This is not to say every player is like this or that all small players are like that, but in general it is a true comment.

I stand by the comments about poor organisation, crap intel, but perhaps the badly un part is a bit of a generic stereotypical comment.

Good reply btw - made me think
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Unread 27 Oct 2006, 12:44   #49
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
Not being able to recruit good players or organize an alliance does not make you a training alliance. wakey has always used the "training alliance" as an excuse for the fact that F Crew are a poor alliance. It's similar to how your old mates IPC used to pretend to be a force for good and training alliance, when really they just weren't very good and irrelevant after the first half of Round 2.

Alliances like this are usually run by self important cretins who use the the phrase "training alliances" to play up their own delusions of grandeur. They hope that people will respect them for training new players when in reality they're doing nothing of the sort, most of their alliance is made up of casual (bad) players who've played a few rounds and "training alliance" is just a mask for badly organized. Harsh but pretty fair in my opinion.
I think you can take players and try and make them into solid alliance and train them that way and build an alliance up, but it takes a lot of time and a reputation to build to let you further your ambitions and actually attract good players to what you've got. The problem is that eventually there is a ceiling that is very very tough to break through and you wonder whether it's worthwhile trying. Do not forget that in planetarion, the incumbents at the top are pretty much all consuming.

F-Crew's problem (if it is a problem, maybe it is a characteristic of them) is that they seem content to stay at the same level. Even so, training or not, F-Crew are giving newer players their first taster of alliance play, getting them some experience and everyone has to start somewhere. This is not a bad thing, even if they aren't great, simply because they are providing some kind of useful function. Let's get that out of the way first. I think you are being harsh in this aspect.

Developing players to be 'successful' is not a way to win planetarion. To do well in planetarion is possible but it is very tough to progress because as you get players who get better faster than your alliance does (and there will always be some) and their ambition to do well comes ahead of your progress in their minds and them leaving just puts you a step back. This is just frustrating, so maybe they think why bother to improve? We tried training players in BlueTuba, we improved to become a pretty solid but unspectacular alliance that was politically active but eventually we hit a wall and decided that instead of staying in a straight line, we'd rather stop there as we realised we'd taken things as far as we can (and the Planetarion equivalent of a roadblock is pretty OK from less than nothing in 3 rounds).

If there is a criticism of F-Crew you could fairly level at them it's that they seem to be training, but never improving their own alliance, as surely the point of an alliance is to be as successful as possible. But the problem is mud sticks, players move on faster and outgrow your alliance.
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Unread 27 Oct 2006, 16:15   #50
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Re: Rock/F-Crew Split from Making the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
I agree in some way with what you say, but there are a few things. Firstly those in smaller alliances must be there for a reason and I seriously doubt that the reason is training. You can train newer players from anywhere - not necessarily from within the alliance. Also if you look at the levels of defence available and the likelihood of the types of score someone will get with a smaller alliance than you would get with an "elite" alliance, you have to have certain things. One is you are happy with your alliance mates so will stick with it, or you are happy with the amount of hours you play so will stay as you are. So why do people manage this type of people? Part of the answer has to be the social and the lack of activity. However, part of me has to say its part of the credence involved with managing an alliance as oppose to "just" being a member.

I never said that these people running the alliances were arrogant, just that they are powermongers which does not nexessarily mean arrogant, nasty or manipulative (but probably the latter).

You are also assuming that when I talk about powertripping ego's that I am talking about with members (which seems to be your post bias). You have an arrogance - maybe not with your members, but on the boards and with perhaps the way you talk to others on irc? Again, I have not dealt with you but your posts are usually littered with anti-big alliance propaganda and a bitterness I usually reserve for Kj

I also don't think that players forget there roots when they make comments about smaller alliances - I would say that most remember there roots. However, that does not excuse "slagging off" a smaller alliance, however, that has been the way of AD since round 2 and I doubt that will ever change. The trouble is the majority of players will look back and say "I remember this so this must still be the fact", in my opinion is that with this approach the apple never falls that far away from the tree. They are only able to do this because they compare there new alliance with there old alliance which is why they should not "slag off" any smaller alliance. The smaller alliance will never be a exilition or a 1up, nor do they try to be, so regardless of the reasons for that alliance to be set up or run, at least give them respect for what they do.

Finally I never said your members were not knowledgeable, just social. They probably spend more time on irc talking and having a laugh than actually playing the game. This is not a bad thing, just that they will often have a different in game attitude to a "serious" player who will spend each tick religiously checking there planet and making decisions accordingly (which may take calculations and even strategic ideas into account). This is not to say every player is like this or that all small players are like that, but in general it is a true comment.

I stand by the comments about poor organisation, crap intel, but perhaps the badly un part is a bit of a generic stereotypical comment.

Good reply btw - made me think
  • There’s no doubt that you can train players while being in an ‘elite’ alliance. However at the same time there’s a limit on how much help you can do from such a situation. Your alliance won’t have that many in their ranks and your galaxy probably aren’t going to hang onto such players for long unless they immediately tick enough boxes. Hence if you want to help a large number of players from an elite alliance you have to think outside the box, but even that’s made tougher today. The help you can now give is restricted to advice by the eta system and the support account rules which make it harder to not only help them but earn their trust.

  • One of the reason people choose to train new/inexperienced players via their own alliance is the freedom it gives them to do so. As a member of an alliance you have very little say in the ‘operations’ of the alliance. You also have a lot of commitments you have to carry out for the alliance which can interfere with your ability to help others out. By starting an alliance the only people they have to answer to about use of their time, effort and resources are the people they are trying to help. Plus you don’t find yourself in a conflict of interest due to your alliance in some way undermining those you’re helping. You have a single agenda and that’s to help those in your alliance, not two often competing agendas

  • I’m not sure I’d class myself as arrogant really. Having an arrogance would suggest that I think I know better than everyone else and I freely admit that that’s not the case. Its just that the nature of these forums means that its pretty much solely the domain of those from an elite alliance background and through no fault of their own their views are often very ‘elite allaince’ focused which makes it look like certain views are the majority view and hence the correct one. There’s also a pack mentality at times that sees anyone disagreeing, especially if they are an ‘unknown’ set upon and intimidated off the forum. As such it requires the few regulars on these forums who do have a lower level background to stand up and be counted and to not buckle at the first sign of resistance. If that comes across as arrogance when I post then I’m sorry about that but we can’t afford to have the ‘lower end’s’ voice to be drowned out and until we have a forum where both ends of the game can discuss issues on a level playing field without ridicule and intimation then I’ll continue to try and make them be heard.

    Also when I’m posting on Suggestions it’s often with my mod hat on. It may seem that I’m at times saying “this is rubbish” and hence suggest arrogance due to the amount of seemingly ‘negative’ comments I make. However this is often just me playing devils advocate as I feel part of the role of suggestions mod should be to stimulate ideas to take them from a rough idea with some problems to one which is well formed. If I have a suggestion on how to sort it myself then I’ll post it, if not I’ll highlight problems I can see so the OP can address them or others can come up with solutions.

  • I’m not really anti big alliance. I know they have a place in pa and are as important to its success as the entry point alliances are. What I have an issue with is more the large number of members and commanders in these alliances with the ‘selfish’ attitudes. There’s quite often a ‘screw the little guy’ mentality which isn’t good for anyone. The game needs both ends of the game to be strong and vibrant and I’m sure both ends of this game would like to see to see a pa that’s growing and we shouldn’t have people with a “We are bigger and hence more important attitude”


    I’m not expecting the hardcore alliances to suddenly become clones of F-Crew, nor do I want that. And I don’t expect every alliance to start taking in significant numbers of new players (although if you have the odd spare place free taking some risks on new players who are alliance less would be nice. If there’s something I’ve learnt that while there’s new people out there who will never make the grade at even the lowest PA level there’s a lot of diamonds just waiting to be unearthed if someone just gives them a chance) and I don’t want to see alliances given a free ride just because they are a ‘training’ alliance.


    What I do expect though is for people to be more social aware and to stop using the ‘war game’ factor as a reason for acting like complete twats. In game they need to treat them with a bit of respect and not just as a punching bag that can be kicked and punched and bounced around the universe. They are real people who want to play this game and have fun. And out of game they are real people who play a game that’s very different to the game at the top but who’s views are just as important and their needs require addressed as much as your hardcore players

  • On the ‘forgetting where they came from’ the problem is time is a great mask of reality. Details are forgotten and you get the rose tinted glasses effect on the good times and hightened sense of hell on the bad times. And when you have others knocking an alliance and the players at that level its easy to start believing that its not simply because of lack of desire by the player/alliance to get better but something that anyone going through that as a player its easy to get stuck at that level without a committed alliance that can help get you further

  • I think you would be surprised tbh about the core of our alliance. I’m obviously not going to say too much for intel reasons but the average score of our ‘core’ 40 members is extremely respectable and not one of those playing socially. And yes they do take part and enjoy the social side as well as the game but are still highly active in game. These 40 are serious players and are players we could play as a smaller numbered alliance with and do very well with. Infact if we were to do that I think we would probably have a easier time recruiting players as we would have access to players who while we are an alliance that are willing to use the extra space to give people a chance it puts a lot of good players off joining us so its.

  • There’s no denying that there are some poor alliances lower down that are poorly run ego trips. There alliances who I refer to as ‘black holes’ as players go in and are never seen again. There a pet hate of mine and there the single reason why I’m firmly against a the kind of quick dramatic drop in alliance member limits that a lot of people want as these would be the alliances which would have to take the excess players and we don’t want to push anyone towards these. But you shouldn’t let these alliances cloud your judgement as there are also some very good alliances out there for taking and training new players and they don’t need people lumping them in with these black holes.

    [For the Record on the alliance limit, while I agree that it needs reduced I think a radical drop will do more harm than good. We need keep growing the quality lower down that can take the excess by steady drops rather than suddenly have a load of players without an alliance and with limited options so they end up being stuck in an ego trip. I think this is especially important after this round which to a degree has undone the work of the last few rounds to increase quality and depth in alliance]



Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
F-Crew's problem (if it is a problem, maybe it is a characteristic of them) is that they seem content to stay at the same level. .
The vital part in that sentence is the word 'seems'. From the outside it may well seem that we aren’t making any progress and are just happy at our current level but that’s far from the case. The improvements aren’t normally radical from round to round so it may seem we are standing still a lot of the time but it is there. The reasons the progress isn’t ‘radical’ are probably two fold 1) Turnover of key personnel. While its not as bad as it was when you lose people like BC’s and you have to spend time finding replacements and training them it sets you back a little bit from the off a and 2) While others have in the past been willing to change their ways upon hitting the top10 so they become a standard top10 alliance we aren’t willing to do that. It may make progress slower but we would rather achieve the improvement playing our way than to imitate others.

But trust me the alliance is better than it was in round 1, is better than it was in our first top10 round (R14) and is better than it was last round and we are constantly striving to improve the quality of the alliance just not by abandoning the core beliefs that make F-Crew F-crew and not just another alliance
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