User Name
Password

Go Back   Planetarion Forums > Non Planetarion Discussions > General Discussions

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 20 Jan 2008, 20:45   #1
Hebdomad
I ♡ ☠
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Hebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Polls

Re our previous discussion, Bad Science has a good article about statistics used in newspapers. You should also note that I doubt the Guardian or the Independent would have commissioned this poll. They would have introduced their own selection bias and poor methodology.

I could go onto a more philosophical point how it doesn't really matter as long as you never view social science polls as objective because belief begets action and action begets reality. And then I'd go onto to argue there is very little truth. And then you'd ask me if London buses are red. And then I'd say not if you're colour-blind. And then you'd ask me if a bus is a bus. And then I'd say not if you're godzilla because then they're more of an inconvience than a method of transportation. But I am not discussing that.

Your comment, horn, riled me so much that last Friday night I found myself arguing how most polls are propaganda masquerading as science to a group of inebriates (my friends). But now a website and a book agrees with me I am calm like an internet-enabled zen monk.

Welcome to the end of this post.
Hebdomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 20 Jan 2008, 21:00   #2
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Polls

'propaganda' is an over used word. mostly by small minded spastics who need to pretend there is some sort of order in the world
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 20 Jan 2008, 21:38   #3
KaneED
Motherfracker
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,985
KaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Polls

Propaganda simply refers to the attempt to change the opinions of the masses, in this sense, propaganda is really more about persuasion and not the dark art most people believe it to be.

If we see propaganda as simply an attempt to persuade, then propaganda is less potent and thus nothing to be feared.
KaneED is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 20 Jan 2008, 22:21   #4
Hebdomad
I ♡ ☠
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Hebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldHebdomad spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: Polls

I was going to make the same point (or link to thefreedictionary.com), KaneEd, but I thought it better to ignore yahwe.........................
Hebdomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 20 Jan 2008, 22:25   #5
Yahwe
I am.
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Yahwe has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Polls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I was going to make the same point (or link to thefreedictionary.com), KaneEd, but I thought it better to ignore yahwe.........................
yeah. we really need to agree to diagree on that

p.s. i remain your most underappreciated fan
__________________
hi
Yahwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jan 2008, 15:29   #6
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Polls

I hope that article isn't lying.

That book is in the uni library so I shall check it out in a couple of days and you should have a report on it (possibly) by the end of the week.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jan 2008, 15:34   #7
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Polls

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Propaganda simply refers to the attempt to change the opinions of the masses, in this sense, propaganda is really more about persuasion and not the dark art most people believe it to be.

If we see propaganda as simply an attempt to persuade, then propaganda is less potent and thus nothing to be feared.
Well that sounds ok. Except of course, this is a process that occurs 24 hours a day seven days a week. It is a process by which you are bombared constantly every time you leave the house (and an increasing amount of time spent in your home).

Like saturated fats, they are tolerable in monderation and you may even realise how bad they are for you. But when it's one of the cornerstones of modern society then it might require a reevaluation of the effects.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jan 2008, 16:12   #8
KaneED
Motherfracker
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,985
KaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Polls

ASG I think you're neglecting the fact that it's not the propaganda that forms the opinion, it's you that does the opinion forming, whether you're bombarded by propaganda constantly or not (which you are but not in rhe form you suggest, for instance you are using propaganda in trying to change my view).

All types of advertising, newspaper articles, tv programs etc must be seen as propaganda because they are trying to convert you in some way or other, but to view it as something intrinsically malevolent is misguided.

The intent of the propaganda plays an important role in what it does, but the interpretation of the propaganda is where the important processes happen.
KaneED is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jan 2008, 21:36   #9
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Polls

It depends by what you mean by malevolent. I would describe the promotion of consummerism, mediocrity and the status quo as malevolent.

Apart from the fact the application of critical thinking to the world at large (or in any serioius form) is missing from the education system at large, there are other factors.

What we know in an intellectual capacity does not necessarily effect the subconsious. I might know that the common house spider can do me no harm and that in compairions I am a God. Nevertheless, this knowledge does not necessarily mean that I can wish away the fact that they scare the shit out of me.

So whilst we may be able to look at something and go 'that's a load of nonsense' there may be other processes at work. When these forces are being applied constantly in a very intense way (whether on the internet or walknig down the street or enjoying the good old family tradition of watching TV.)

A very important aspect of propaganda is that it doesn't have to be true. Even though advertisements are (supposed to be) subject to scrutiny, there are a lot of dubious claims made. The abuse of statistics is pretty terrible to be honest as well as advertising cars from £9,995 and showing one worth £35,000 in the same advert. Whilst this is not a lie as such, there is a great deal of purposeful misleading and this alone can be enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goebbels
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 21 Jan 2008, 21:59   #10
KaneED
Motherfracker
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,985
KaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Polls

First, successful propaganda is based on the truth. Propaganda doesn't necessarily have to be a lie. There are in fact shades of propaganda, from white to black. White being from open sources and truthful, grey being from hidden sources but truthful, and black where either the source is hidden or intentionally deceptive or the content is a complete fabrication or a lie.

I think you've taken a very negative idea of propaganda from Goebbels' points of propaganda or whatever it is. He was of course Propaganda Minister in a repressive Nazi regime so perhaps referencing him as an example of propaganda in its entirety is somewhat slanted towards your view that propaganda is bad.

I know you understand that propaganda pervades our lives everyday, but I still think you are of the opinion that propaganda is bad. It is not, it is an inherently neutral activity in terms of morality because it is not the propaganda that determines its nature but its intent which I said previously.

While some propaganda may encourage consumerism and the status quo (who said the status quo was a bad thing?) there is other propaganda that encourages us to give to charity, stop climate change and prevent car crashes etc.

Therefore it seems clear that there are degrees to which propaganda is benificial and detrimental to everybody and thus, I repeat, that viewing propaganda as some nasty human activity that only promotes things that some may find distasteful, is flawed.


PS. This post is propaganda.
KaneED is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 22 Jan 2008, 18:11   #11
Nodrog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Polls

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
ASG I think you're neglecting the fact that it's not the propaganda that forms the opinion, it's you that does the opinion forming, whether you're bombarded by propaganda constantly or not (which you are but not in rhe form you suggest, for instance you are using propaganda in trying to change my view)..
I think this kind of naive individualism is hard to take seriously when you take into account that most people in a society end up buying into the propaganda* being put out by the system they live in. Its a bit hard to believe that 90% of people all 'freely choose' to form the same opinion when this opinion has dubious validity.


* I dont like the term 'propaganda' because its too intentionalistic and implies that the person who created it is conscious of the belief system hes propagating, which probably isnt true in many cases, but whatever.

Quote:
I know you understand that propaganda pervades our lives everyday, but I still think you are of the opinion that propaganda is bad. It is not, it is an inherently neutral activity in terms of morality because it is not the propaganda that determines its nature but its intent which I said previously.
Well in some sense the value of propaganda depends on what its being used to promote, but I think you can go deeper than that. To use an analogy, bad arguments that are filled with rhetoric and emotional manipulation lower the tone of debate even when they are being used to argue for something 'good', and people who have been overexposed to these kind of arguments will often pick up this broken style of thinking. So I think you can say that certain types of bad argument are dangerous in themselves, indepently of the position which they are arguing for. Similarly, I think the language of modern advertising with its soundbites, bright colours and oversaturation of images is destructive in itself regardless of what it happens to be promoting, due to the style of thinking and world-view which it encourages

Quote:
While some propaganda may encourage consumerism and the status quo (who said the status quo was a bad thing?) there is other propaganda that encourages us to give to charity, stop climate change and prevent car crashes etc.
I think the fact that advertisements for charity/climate change/etc currently use the same language as adverts for new brands of soap powder and luxury cars is reflective of a fairly serious social problem. This ties in with the above; in a society where propaganda is so ingrained into daily life, almost everything ends up taking the form of propaganda. Our society is pathological obssessed with the langauge of marketing/advertising, not only when it comes to consumer goods, but also when talking about political positions, science, art, or even individuals (the idea of people 'selling themselves' is a standard part of our language now, and people are encouraged to market themselves to potential employees/spouses in much the same way that a company would market a new product). And all of these things tie together on some level.

Last edited by Nodrog; 22 Jan 2008 at 18:47.
Nodrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 22 Jan 2008, 18:47   #12
KaneED
Motherfracker
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,985
KaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond reputeKaneED has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Polls

You've marketed yourself to me nod <3
KaneED is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 23 Jan 2008, 18:24   #13
Baron Morte
Blatantly overcooked
 
Baron Morte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,575
Baron Morte has much to be proud ofBaron Morte has much to be proud ofBaron Morte has much to be proud ofBaron Morte has much to be proud ofBaron Morte has much to be proud ofBaron Morte has much to be proud ofBaron Morte has much to be proud ofBaron Morte has much to be proud of
Re: Polls

Conclusion
14 The trend in the graph is not simply a trick of the eye. The null hypothesis of differences in opinion direction among blacks by year of the survey can be rejected at the .35 level.
The results offered in this paper deepen our understanding of biases in opinion polls in particular, and political participation more generally. The balance in the volume and salience of elite rhetoric on given issues may greatly impact the shape of aggregate opinion in politically consequential ways. In the case presented here, analyses that use very different data sources converge to the same conclusion. A significant – though admittedly small – dovish segment ofthe population was excluded from opinion concerning Vietnam in the early part of the war. However, this bias shrank over time as anti-war messages became more common in the public sphere. Over time, as the flow of elite rhetoric reached a balance reflective of the underlying considerations of the American public, a more complete picture of the public’s views were expressed. Thus, the increase of elite anti-war messages cues not only that segment of the mass public who consistently answer survey questions (Zaller 1992) but also allows an important segment of the public to give voice to their politically relevant wants, needs, and desires.
In sum, while opinion polls may serve as important complements to traditional measures of political participation, they cannot substitutive for them. The point here is not that polls are inegaliatarian; perhaps they are the most egalitarian possible measures of the public’s will. However, it is important to recognize that they may suffer from the same biases as other forms of political expression.
__________________
Bizarrely overrated
Baron Morte is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 23 Jan 2008, 22:52   #14
dda
USS Oklahoma
 
dda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,500
dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.dda has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Polls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
most polls are propaganda
When I first read this phrase I thought it said "pornoganda" which would have given an entirely different meaning to the pharse "taking a poll."
__________________
Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not.
dda is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018