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Unread 8 Jan 2008, 23:19   #51
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Maybe Y. A. G. is a Mormon?
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Unread 9 Jan 2008, 05:01   #52
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Often, polls are a political tool and not a representation of reality.

When people start to believe polls then polls contort reality i.e. people believe X will win an election, what issues are most important, etc. There we go. Answered.
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Unread 9 Jan 2008, 05:11   #53
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

I can't say I know much about the candidates, but I was rather hopeful obama would win over hilary
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Unread 9 Jan 2008, 11:44   #54
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Why?

Mitt Romney;

* Started up his own very profitable company. He was asked to return to the employer he had after graduating University. That company was facing collapse. He turned it round without layoffs etc and made it profitable within a year.

* Was brought in to run the 2002 Winter Olympic games at a time when they were facing a budget defecit and allegations of corruption. Despite additional, unplanned though necessary, security costs the games made a profit without any scaling back.

* Became a Governor and turned a $1.2billion deficit into a $700million surplus. Also introduced health reform law.

Basically he has a very good track record of "running things" and with the way the American economy is at the moment (massive deficit and credit / housing market problems) the country needs someone with his kind of experience. Crucially his health reform law needs extending across the country as a whole. Also i think he would be able to do something similar with medi-care.

As to his opponents:

Obama - Charismatic but light on experience. America has just had a charismatic leader (although Obama is smart)

Clinton - Would probably be a good leader. International relations wise she's the best choice. She does have the Hilary Aid baggage to contend with though at a time when reform is needed.

McCain - Too old (and ill?)

The rest aren't reasonable options.

That answer your question?
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Unread 9 Jan 2008, 12:10   #55
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
are you suggesting they fabricate the polls?
I think all he's saying is that the polls influence themselves as well as the outcome of the actual elections, whether there's intentional manipulation or not. People like being winners, or being with winners, or (in this case) having voted for winners.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 9 Jan 2008 at 15:23.
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Unread 9 Jan 2008, 15:07   #56
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
are you suggesting they fabricate the polls?
I read this a while ago doing research for an essay. You might find it interesting.
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Unread 9 Jan 2008, 18:45   #57
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You Are Gay
That answer your question?
Sure.


However, it's become increasingly common to suggest that only people with executive experience (as a Governor or Vice-President) are fit to run the country, as opposed to Senator/Representatives. Hence my question.
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Unread 9 Jan 2008, 19:31   #58
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Exclamation Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I have experience of spreading government lies, so I am already well ahead of the rest of you
Can I be your First Lady?
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 05:39   #59
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Exclamation Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I imagine its the people who have that experience who are suggesting that.
Well, that and history. In the past 100 years, only one President has been elected to office with only Legislative experience (JFK, 1960).

It's been very rare for candidates to win the Presidency without some sort of executive experience. I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss that trend.
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 12:59   #60
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Exclamation Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
It's been very rare for candidates to win the Presidency without some sort of executive experience.
How is being Vice-President (I assume this is what you're refering to) 'executive experience'? In case you've forgotten, the Vice-President doesn't actually do anything. (At least, not historically - they didn't even attend cabinet until FDR's day.)

You'd get more executive experience from managing a Radio Shack.
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 13:10   #61
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
How is being Vice-President (I assume this is what you're refering to) 'executive experience'? In case you've forgotten, the Vice-President doesn't actually do anything. (At least, not historically - they didn't even attend cabinet until FDR's day.)

You'd get more executive experience from managing a Radio Shack.


Executive experience as in being a Governor.
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 13:13   #62
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Exclamation Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You Are Gay
Executive experience as in being a Governor.
Ford, Nixon, Kennedy, Johnson, Eisenhower and Truman were never Governors. Those are just the post-war Presidents that I can think of.

Edit: Daddy Bush as well.

Tacitus is actually quite wrong; the main basis for a run at the Presidency in the 20th century has generally been either experience as a Governor or experience in the Senate. Of the above lot, all of them served in the Senate apart from Eisenhower and Ford, and Daddy Bush would have done so as well if he hadn't lost an election.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 10 Jan 2008 at 13:26.
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 13:28   #63
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Or being incredibly rich.
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 13:29   #64
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Exclamation Re: Annoying election process begins.

Or being related to a former President.
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 13:36   #65
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Potateo, Potarto.
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 13:38   #66
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

OK my bad.
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 18:28   #67
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Exclamation Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
How is being Vice-President (I assume this is what you're refering to) 'executive experience'? In case you've forgotten, the Vice-President doesn't actually do anything. (At least, not historically - they didn't even attend cabinet until FDR's day.)
But as FDR himself so aptly demonstrated, the Vice-President is only a cerebral hemorrhage away from the Presidency. Vice-Presidents have become far more important and far more engaged than they used to be. Witness the fact that a number of Democrats want to impeach Dick Cheney--they obviously seem to think he's doing something! Consequently, I would argue, the Vice-Presidency has proven to be a very significant qualification for those who would be President. So much so, in fact, that Vice-Presidents are now the presumptive Presidential nominees for their party when their terms end (assuming they don't accede to the office directly and that they actually want to run for President). In my lifetime, only Dan Quayle has failed to parley the Vice-Presidency into at least a Presidential nomination.
Quote:
You'd get more executive experience from managing a Radio Shack.
Possibly, yet we see a lot of Vice-Presidents becoming President. Radio Shack managers--not so much.
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 20:28   #68
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Ford, Nixon, Kennedy, Johnson, Eisenhower and Truman were never Governors. Those are just the post-war Presidents that I can think of.

Edit: Daddy Bush as well.
Truman - Roosevelt's VP
Eisenhower - Supreme Allied Commander in Europe
Johnson - Kennedy's VP
Nixon - Eisenhower's VP
Ford - Nixon's VP.
Bush senior - Reagan's VP



Spot a theme?
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 20:32   #69
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
But as FDR himself so aptly demonstrated, the Vice-President is only a cerebral hemorrhage away from the Presidency. Vice-Presidents have become far more important and far more engaged than they used to be. Witness the fact that a number of Democrats want to impeach Dick Cheney--they obviously seem to think he's doing something! Consequently, I would argue, the Vice-Presidency has proven to be a very significant qualification for those who would be President. So much so, in fact, that Vice-Presidents are now the presumptive Presidential nominees for their party when their terms end (assuming they don't accede to the office directly and that they actually want to run for President). In my lifetime, only Dan Quayle has failed to parley the Vice-Presidency into at least a Presidential nomination.
Possibly, yet we see a lot of Vice-Presidents becoming President. Radio Shack managers--not so much.
To be fair Cheney is a special case. It is perfectly natural that even the usually irrelevant office of VP becomes important when the President can't tie his own shoe laces
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 23:17   #70
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Another ad hominem attack on my boy George!

Tsk. Tsk.
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Unread 10 Jan 2008, 23:52   #71
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Another ad hominem attack on my boy George!

Tsk. Tsk.
I taught you better than that.

An ad hominem is entirely different from deliberate criticism
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 00:32   #72
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

As so your problem with Bush has to do with the manner in which he ties his shoes. Now I see.
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 04:03   #73
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
As so your problem with Bush has to do with the manner in which he ties his shoes. Now I see.
I believe the chap after bush's core voters has even distanced himself from bush...

I do, darling honestly i do, find it ever so curious how americans only allow themselves opinions during elections. Is this perhaps why you have them so often? it's a serious question as every 4 years seems a bit too often to me - perhaps you secretly agree and this is why most modern presidents get 2 terms?

yet OUTSIDE of elections you all defend the president to the hilt - from even the slightest of criticism.

This is most curious. Divine right of kingship?
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 10:35   #74
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
are you suggesting they fabricate the polls?
Unless you're on the wrong end of Mao's barrel you are most easily pliable when you acquiesce to perception and belief.

If someone can make you believe that this is the ideal personality, that these are the ideal friendships, that this is what you should wear, that this is whom you should revere, that whomever is socially higher than you, that this accent is better, that these people are more intelligent than yourself, that this politician is better supported, that these are the major issues then they control how you behave.

Once this this happens this someone no longer needs a gun because those who have taken this belief system for truth will fight, violently or not, against those who have taken on (similarly mindlessly) an alternative belief system for the benefit of what they now believe to be themselves.

Politicians do not need adverts detailing what kind of body you should have, what kind of body your better half should have, what kind of clothes you should wear, or what kind of relations you engage in, what products you should buy - they need a way to convince you of what and whom the rest of the country believes, thinks, wants and trusts because surely that is, then, what and who you believe, think, want and trust. Do you really wish to be that aberrant?

If you've ever tried to do any social research hopefully you will have found out that, because of the subject matter you chose to research, you're hopelessly biased. I find it hard to believe the Guardian, the Times, the Telegraph, the Daily Mail and the Express - all of whom have a agenda as do all - undertake their research, with the various companies that to a large extent make their living from such newspapers, with selfless scientific rigour.

Yes I think they're quite often, if not fabricated, heavily biased in methodology and/or results. I don't think this general concept - working to make someone believe something - is such a revelation; I think it's what anyone does when they wish dominion over another without the use of a gun.

I find religion hard to stomach because it, ninety percent of the time, forces a group of individuals to mindlessly take on a belief system and then carry out a number of instructions with zeal. But such systems are not limited to beliefs about deities. As soon as you acquiesce to whatever someone else's believes about society, behaviour, who you are and who they are you are going through the same motions.




Plus, don't you find it a bit odd how newspapers loudly exhort these figures?
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 14:02   #75
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Exclamation Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacitus
But as FDR himself so aptly demonstrated, the Vice-President is only a cerebral hemorrhage away from the Presidency. Vice-Presidents have become far more important and far more engaged than they used to be. Witness the fact that a number of Democrats want to impeach Dick Cheney--they obviously seem to think he's doing something! Consequently, I would argue, the Vice-Presidency has proven to be a very significant qualification for those who would be President. So much so, in fact, that Vice-Presidents are now the presumptive Presidential nominees for their party when their terms end (assuming they don't accede to the office directly and that they actually want to run for President). In my lifetime, only Dan Quayle has failed to parley the Vice-Presidency into at least a Presidential nomination
My point was not so much regarding the growth of the electoral importance of the Vice-Presidency, as, rather, that it hardly counts as being 'executive experience.' It is also both innacurate and misleading to say that this notion is some sort of requirement for the Presidency; as I pointed out, many of the most notable Presidents of the last fifty years had their basic grounding in the Senate. The basis for their political standing and the prime influence of their formative political years was legislative, not executive.

Nor is there anything which should be disquieting about this. A basic feel for compromise, bipartisanship and persuasion in Congress is an essential element in a successful Presidency. Knowledge of this simple fact can, I'm sure, only be increased the more time a person spends in Congress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Spot a theme?
Yes. You're not paying attention.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 11 Jan 2008 at 14:10.
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 14:19   #76
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Does anyone really care if the President flunked 'kindergarden' as long as they have a nice smile and a violent foreign policy?
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 16:49   #77
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Is this perhaps why you have them so often? it's a serious question as every 4 years seems a bit too often to me - perhaps you secretly agree and this is why most modern presidents get 2 terms?
The past 3 parliamentary elections that have taken place in the UK had 4 years between them, and the maximum time between elections is 5 years is it not?
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 16:51   #78
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
The past 3 parliamentary elections that have taken place in the UK had 4 years between them, and the maximum time between elections is 5 years is it not?
there are different reasons for our having elections too often and my post was about the reasons. it was not about listing ever country which has elections every 4 years.

BUT WAY TO GO!!!
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 18:13   #79
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Obama's speeches are genuinelly painful to listen to; theyre pretty much the epitome of tabloid-rhetoric and populist platitudes. I tried to listen to his victory speech after Iowa but had to stop after about 5 minutes because I couldnt take any more. I realise the other mainstream candidates are probably just as bad, but the people who think that Obama is more sincere than typical politicians, or represents anything other than the latest movement in image-politics, strike me as delusional.

I see a lot of similarities between his campaign and the advertising campaigns that Apple have been running over the last 10 years; despite the fact that macs/iPods are the epitome of consumerist capitalism (in the sense that the product being sold is primarilly image/fashion rather than something functional), fanboys seem to view Apple products as being cool and an alternative to the multinational hegemony of Microsoft/Intel/whoever. Similarly, Obama's main appeal seems to be his image (hay guys its a well-spoken black man not some dumb Texan redneck) and in that sense hes pretty much an intensification/continuation of the last ~25 years of American politics since Reagan rather than the change of direction that his supporters are trying to make out.

I can understand the desire that Americans have to move away from the overly confrontational "my side vs your side" approach to politics that pollutes their country/media and stifles any non-superficial debate, but electing someone who seems to be running almost entirely on image rather than substance probably isnt the best idea. It's pointless to focus on the ending of partisan politics unless youre replacing it with genuine debate and will-to-understand rather than more soundbites and populism.

I would have voted Ron Paul

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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 18:31   #80
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Coverage of American politics is dominated by the tabloid media. The vast majority of people who vote buy into tabloid journalism. Why then would you expect any candidate to do anything other than pander to this? I've seen highly articulate speeches given by the likes of Obama, Clinton, McCain et al. in Washington but I wouldn't expect them while they are on the campaign trail. The Presidential race is a popularity contest and the way to win (ie. reach the most people) is with tabloid rhetoric and populist platitudes. Or do you think there is a candidate running a more highbow campaign? If so, who?

It's not all that different on this side of the pond to be honest and it's getting worse.
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 18:50   #81
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
It's not all that different on this side of the pond to be honest and it's getting worse.
I agree, but at least the British tend to accept this and display a healthy cynicism towards politics and politicians (although bafflingly they often still vote for the mainstream parties they express jadedness towards). But the Obama campaign seems to have caused a lot of people who should know better to believe that he represents a genuine alternative to the current system. If people were just voting for him because he's the least-bad candidate then it would be understandable, but it seems to be more than that. I suppose there are similarities to the initial New Labour campaign back in the 90s though, especially as both were portrayed as marking the end of a period of darkness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Coverage of American politics is dominated by the tabloid media. The vast majority of people who vote buy into tabloid journalism. Why then would you expect any candidate to do anything other than pander to this?
This is true and I agree. Anyone who wants to have a chance of being elected in the current climate will need to run a campaign based around populism, talking points, and an avoidance of both serious debate and non-superficial speech. Obama isnt any different in this respect, but again, it's his supporter's attitudes I dont understand; it baffles me how hes made so many educated people believe that he's anything other than the latest product of a fundamentally broken system.

Quote:
Or do you think there is a candidate running a more highbow campaign? If so, who?
Theres a few, mainly the fringe candidates who dont have a serious chance of being elected and as such can focus on more fundamental politics rather than on the issues which are currently fashionable. Ron Paul/Ralph Nader/Kucinich are recent examples (I'm not necessarily saying I agree with these people and I generally dont think they go far enough, but they still represent a vast improvement over mainstream politics).

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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 21:45   #82
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

What nod says is mostly true but I want obama to win anyway because he seems to be better than the alternatives (apart from Kucinich who is just awesome but can't win ).

This is mostly because a) Hillary clinton doesn't seem to be particularly great either and i don't like the idea of dynasties in american politics being overly successful and b) a black man as president would be pretty cool for image reasons.

Also, don't you think the fact that he is getting so many (young especially) voters galvanised and interested in politics to be a good thing regardless? Although i guess getting them to buy into the corrupt system isn't too great.
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Unread 11 Jan 2008, 23:51   #83
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

He's not getting people interested in politics. He's getting them interested in a media sensation. Like a black Paris Hilton.
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Unread 12 Jan 2008, 00:06   #84
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

You mean Naomi Campbell you racist.
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Unread 12 Jan 2008, 01:31   #85
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I believe the chap after bush's core voters has even distanced himself from bush...
Just because people distance themselves from you or just because your policies are unpopular does not mean you are wrong. You of all people I would think would be aware of this.

Quote:
I do, darling honestly i do, find it ever so curious how americans only allow themselves opinions during elections. Is this perhaps why you have them so often? it's a serious question as every 4 years seems a bit too often to me - perhaps you secretly agree and this is why most modern presidents get 2 terms?
Americans are over flowing with opinions. That is why we have opinion polls almost daily in the papers about this and that. The president's popularity, whether congress is doing a good job, the support for the war, you name it there is a poll taken about it and while the amount of no opinions is often hight it never reaches 50%. The sad thing is that there has been a growing trend toward taking a poll before the political leadership is willing to commit to any position. Once having taken a position then if the polls shift then the commitment begins to shift as well. Not exactly leadership. One of the things I have always liked about Bush is that he frequently takes stands because he believes them to be correct even if the polls tell him that the stand is costing him popularity.

Quote:
yet OUTSIDE of elections you all defend the president to the hilt - from even the slightest of criticism.
There is a strong strain of "My country right or wrong" in the collective American character. Loyalty is much prized.

However, someone portraying the leader of our country as an idiot is not "the slightest criticism."



This is most curious. Divine right of kingship?[/quote]
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Unread 12 Jan 2008, 01:33   #86
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
However, someone portraying the leader of our country as an idiot is not "the slightest criticism."
I think it is when your leader is George Bush
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Unread 13 Jan 2008, 12:46   #87
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Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
He's not getting people interested in politics. He's getting them interested in a media sensation. Like a black Michael Jackson.
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Unread 14 Jan 2008, 17:55   #88
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Exclamation Re: Annoying election process begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
However, someone portraying the leader of our country as an idiot is not "the slightest criticism."
True. I wouldn't even say it was criticsm. More like a fairly banal and well-established fact.
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