Get paid to improve America

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Wait, I'm not a racist. I have plenty of rich black friends that could live in my paradise with me. I just want to take care of my own without any problems that I have no wish to be involved in. Also I'm sure my ultra-rich friends who own the various media corporations can suppress any incriminating evidence. Plus it's not like the media can actually do anything other that increase the disapproval of poor people, who aren't invited anyways so I fail to see a downside there. It's a fool-proof plan you see.

There is a down side though . All of your friends may not be as wealthy as you and therefore will think you owe them something because you have more money. They will most likely barrage you with guilt in order to get you to share your wealth so that they to can be on your level.

If you do share your wealth, they will laugh at you and call you a sucker and it will eventually lead to their resentmentof you. You will of course want a say in how they spend your money in order to make sure that they can reach your level and they will hate your for interfereing with their business.

If you dont share your wealth, you will be harrassed morning, noon and night by the media of your ultra rich friends, calling you an isolationist who doesnt do enough to help his fellow man.

[JonnyBGood]

Actually they don't think I owe them anything for what I have I achieved I achieved on my own. This is the american dream is it not? Individual achievement? Respecting others for who they are and what they have done? And don't worry, those who own the media corporations are far richer than I am.

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

You mean one of the following, or all of the following?
a) The war against Spain (this is how the U.S gained the Philipines as a colony/puppet btw).
b) The wars against Mexico
c) The slaugher of the native population
d) Importing slaves to get cheap labour
I could go on forever, but hey.

A) The annexation? of the phillipines was a military move and not much of economic value.
B) The wars against mexico was done in the name of manifest destiny (Show me one of the worlds super powers who has not committed the same expansion)
C) Once again, manifest destiny. Do I agree with it? Heavens no. But It is a historical fact that a conquering nation will/attempt to enslave and slaughter the aboriginal inhabitants (still no excuse)
D) Slavery was a world wide problem at the time with many nations adhering to the same policy. Slavery was abolished in the states in the 1860's yet was still used for cheap labor in the 20th century by countries such as Japan and Germany

All in all your 4 points arent anything that other nations have not done before or after the United States have. I have to seriously laugh at your first example as the united states took the phillipines from spain who took the phillipines from its aboriginal inhabitants (see the irony)

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

If you havent got it by now, this is how the U.S became a world power and got rich. By feeding off others. By meddling in other countries affairs.

You are 100% right here. The united states wealth has nothing to do with its vast natural resources which for the most part is able to sustain itself with no help from the outside. It has nothing to do with the explosion of the industrial age whose technologies were at the fore front of the worlds leap into the 20th century. All of its wealth definitely is due to its manipulation of other countries, and there would be no united states without said manipulation.

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

And the U.S have never spent much money on foreign aid. Also most of that foreign aid is used as a tool to extract favours etc. During the cold war the U.S foreign aid was less than 5% of the military budget. Today, U.S foreign aid is about 10% of the Norwegian foreign aid relative to BNP. And supplying arms to the army in Guatemala so they could kill of 2-300.000 people is not foregin aid. Neither is supplying Israel, Egypt or Colombia with arms.

From what I can gather the united states spends about 9 billion per year in humanitarion foreign aid. I dont have any numbers on the amount it spends in military aid. ( 9 Billion is a paltry sum in the grand scheme of things, but who are you to critizise what the US gives out?) Why should US tax payers be stradled with supporting other countries who can never seem to get their shit together?

In regards to your condemnation of supplying military aid to guatamala, i could have sworn it was done to prevent the spread of communism. Once again, I dont agree with the role we are playing with our military aid, but i doubt there was much criticism when the united states tried to help finance the stoppage of national socialisms spread.

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Your right about the republicans, but claiming deomcrats wants to create a semi-socialist state is just funny. Im sure the big american corporations would give millions of dollars to a party advocating socialism!

If you look at the political agendas of the 2 parties you will see that democrats are more inclined to goverment sponsered subsidies for the have nots where as the republicans want less governmental intervention into the lives of the american people.

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

I admit that Im not the easiest to impress and that Ive studied history at university, but still.

I dont usually try to give advice to people, but in your case Ill make an exception, I advise you to drop what ever it is you are doing at this moment. Put on a pair of shoes, and march down to the registrars/bursers office at your university and DEMAND a refund for your history credits. Then again maybe it is not the class itself but your inability to see the whole picture and your inherant bias which might cause you not to see things as clearly as you should.

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Actually they don't think I owe them anything for what I have I achieved I achieved on my own. This is the american dream is it not? Individual achievement? Respecting others for who they are and what they have done? And don't worry, those who own the media corporations are far richer than I am.

There in lies one problem with America today. Many americans feel they are owed something for nothing. And many poorer nations feel that America owes them something yet they still try to bite the hand that feeds them.

[Yahwe]

Why does Fyodor think that this Forum needs another prattling, overly sensitive, delusional fool who will bore us all to death in order to correct percieved insults on america rather than even consider for a second that 'perhaps america is to blame for america's current problems'?

has he not seen that he is a carbon copy of Texan? of Whitetrash? of QuazokRogue5 et el et al et al?

Is the a factory somewhere in america producing these IDENTICAL clones? Are they genetically engineered to say such stupid things? Or is it rather a case of country wide indoctrination?

This is the worst sort of fanaticism the world knows!

The sort that clutters up my forum with constant streams of garbage.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

There in lies one problem with America today. Many americans feel they are owed something for nothing. And many poorer nations feel that America owes them something yet they still try to bite the hand that feeds them.

So why stop at America? If we're correcting problems surely we should limit ourselves to the best possible group with the best possible opinions rather than concentrate on some bizzare land boundaries drawn up hundreds of years (hyperbole lol!) before the very system we are communicating via was invented? I don't find that the concept of the nation-state or the even more horribly insane one of national self-determination have any value in them. Are people not people where-ever you encounter them? Should they not enjoy the same rights and liberties? I think so. Welcome to radical libertarianism. Population, most definitely only you.

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

Why does Fyodor think that this Forum needs another prattling, overly sensitive, delusional fool who will bore us all to death in order to correct percieved insults on america rather than even consider for a second that 'perhaps america is to blame for america's current problems'?

has he not seen that he is a carbon copy of Texan? of Whitetrash? of QuazokRogue5 et el et al et al?

Is the a factory somewhere in america producing these IDENTICAL clones? Are they genetically engineered to say such stupid things? Or is it rather a case of country wide indoctrination?

This is the worst sort of fanaticism the world knows!

The sort that clutters up my forum with constant streams of garbage.

First of all how often have you seen me post pro america or anti any other country? Heres a clue, never. The thread asked for ideas to improve america and I responded quite thoughtfully for which I was attacked by a anti american ....shall I use your words...clone. To which I responded again. Now we seem to have a bandwagon gathering to which the only people allowed to monopolise the GD thought process are people who all agree with each other and give each other nice little green dots. God forbid somone posts something contrary to your opinion. Rather than discussing while im wrong you call me overly sensitive.

To be quite honest I agree with alot of GD's posts on the state of America and am quite critical in RL of my own country. The problem with people like you Yahwe and Zukoff is that in cases like my post, you are being stereotypical and trying to put the kibash on a rational train of thought with nothing more than a smear.

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

So why stop at America? If we're correcting problems surely we should limit ourselves to the best possible group with the best possible opinions rather than concentrate on some bizzare land boundaries drawn up hundreds of years (hyperbole lol!) before the very system we are communicating via was invented? I don't find that the concept of the nation-state or the even more horribly insane one of national self-determination have any value in them. Are people not people where-ever you encounter them? Should they not enjoy the same rights and liberties? I think so. Welcome to radical libertarianism. Population, most definitely only you.

Libertarianism is a beautiful concept, but in my lifetime with exception to a limited basis, that is all it is, a concept. Land Boundries are now and always have been one of the of the driving forces in how one identifies ones self. And to rip national/tribal identities from a persons conciousness would leave a void that is not easily filled.

National and religous Identity are the main foes of the "live and let live mentality" because although the libertarion practices what he preaches, there is usually a force totally opposite to the libertarion value system, which in turn will try to supress your ethical point of view.

In a single person situation this is fine as usually you will have the abilty to walk away. But in a global extreme when someone tries to push their moralistic agenda on the masses the libertarions philosophy would not get involved.

Till the time comes where the moralistic agenda is being imposed upon the libertarion. (reminds me of a yiddish parable about a jew living in a small town hearing that the nazis were entering the neighboring towns and taking away his fellow jews. Hed say, "Ahh but this has nothing to do with me" Then they came to his town and took some of his neighbors away and when they asked him for help he replied "ahh but this has nothing to do with me" When they finally came to take him away, he looked around, but there was no one left to ask for help"

Yes people should enjoy the same liberties and freedoms the world out. But what is to be done about the people who wish to enjoy these freedoms, but are restricted under whatever regime controls said boundries. Trying to enforce libertarion beliefs upon these countries goes against the libertarion concept.

[JonnyBGood]

And now for something completely different.

-Revoke all work visas so euros/eastern hemisphere natives who come over for the high paying jobs can bitch about america from the comforts of their own country

I find this amazing. I have a few relatives myself who emigrated to the US and they all are full of praise for it. Is this a recent phenomenon? Both myself and my brother visited the US for 3 months, both of us worked although he in a slightly better paying job than I heh, and I don't remember doing that much bitching about it. The USA is supposedly the land of opportunity, your ancestors themselves most likely emigrated from a particular country at some time in the past. Immigration is what made the US what it is today. If you really love it so much, maybe you should look at what led to the country you're living in being brought about.

-Kick all illegal immagrants from the eatsern hemisphere out of the country and give illegals from the Americas legal status so they can start paying taxes for the public infrastructure they are so dependent on

I don't quite understand the drawing of lines between those from the americas and those who are not. What on earth will we do with the half-mexican half-europeans immigrants in the US? Surely everyone is dependent on public infrastructure (I doubt you'd function well without electricity or roads) so I'm not sure why you felt the need to point that out. Do you know what your immigration policies actually involve? Up until fairly recently I had no idea what my country's (hi I'm Irish) policies were. I'd advise looking up yours.

-stop giving financial support to every third world country who is in need. Straighten out america first, mexico second and south america third. Let the other "wealthy" coutries worry about the eastern hemisphere

Personally I am not a huge fan of foreign aid. Firstly there's a huge amount of corruption so it's extremely difficult to get aid to those who really need it without bribing half the government of whichever tin pot dictatorship is currently in charge. Secondly I don't really support taxation (I make various exceptions along the way, rigid philosophies aren't usually a good way of approaching life, police are definitely one thing I support taxation for education and child health care are others), so this being used for foreign aid is not something I'm a huge fan of, it's slightly better than mass subsidization of various corporations though.

However I am not inhuman and I do sympathise with those in dire poverty. The vast majority of people who are staggeringly poor (I am talking about those in say Mozambique) were born into this situation or found themselves trapped in it due to government policies of which they had very little to no say in. I am well aware of my own abilities and I wouldn't be that confident of my chances of fighting my way out of that particular poverty trap. It is difficult for people to part with money they feel they have earned, especially when they do not clearly see any results. I'm sure I could give more money myself but to be honest I do not wish to part with more than I already do.I really don't think people should be forced to hand over their money and, while I give money myself (to Trocaire) and I would encourage everyone else to consider their fellow human beings in this matter, I do not think the government should have any power to do this for their citizens. It's not exactly one of the worst excesses of modern western governments though, and in terms of emergency aid it's often more efficient.

-Get out of nato and let europe deal with its own messes

I'm not quite sure if you understand the purpose or the history of NATO. Not to patronise you but it stands for North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and the last time I checked the US was on the other side of the North Atlantic. NATO was created for the purpose of defending the free world against totalitarianism (and whether or not this has been badly aimed at times) I find that a worthy goal. Incidentally do you know when Article V (the bit that says everyone in NATO agrees to treat an attack on one as an attack on all) was first activated? September 12th 2001. I'll leave it up to you to guess who activated it.

-Retreat from globalization

Globalisation isn't really a policy you can "retreat" from. What exactly do you propose? That american companies are not allowed to operate outside the US? I think you'd find a lot of intelligent businessmen would quickly work out that there are better opportunities for profit abroad. I think we both agree that banning emigration is not a viable alternative if you have any respect for the core principles on which the USA was founded. Free trade is a central characteristic of the US.

-Take all the money saved by the above and invest it in education

How exactly do you imagine a retreat from globalisation can save the United States money?

-Abolish outsourcing

Do you mean international outsourcing by this (as the words have popularly come to mean) or just outsourcing in general? Outsourcing is just an investment decision, of which the freedom to make is a core component of any capitalist system. The jobs lost to foreign countries are frequently made back up, albeit imperfectly. It's just creative destruction.

-in a nutshell, take care of itself first and its neighbors second. To hell with the rest of the world.

I think the old model of the nation-state as something which supports it's citizens from birth to death has become outdated. Taking care of it's own is not the responsibility of the government. If governments have shown us much, it's that they're corrupt, aggressive and inefficient at the best of times. Limit governmental power. To hell with the rest of the world? If it really is true that terrorists are currently attacking the United States because they hate your freedom or success (I don't actually believe for a second that this is the case but many of your countrymen seem be of this belief) do you think they'll stop when you withdraw from all international relations?

Instead of extreme isolationism perhaps the more sensible approach would be to examine what aspects of old organisations and modes of thought have shown themselves to have aged badly and to re-examine the place of the US in the world today. You cannot erect walls around your country. That is not the way the world works, that is not the way people work. And thank god for that.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

Libertarianism is a beautiful concept, but in my lifetime with exception to a limited basis, that is all it is, a concept. Land Boundries are now and always have been one of the of the driving forces in how one identifies ones self. And to rip national/tribal identities from a persons conciousness would leave a void that is not easily filled.

I have accepted it. I don't view myself as somehow intellectually or culturally superior to the rest of mankind. It's just a matter of education. Cultural identity, while of value, is not the most sensible or the most productive lines around which to base a country. I am not saying abolish history but national and tribal boundaries are not absolute and they are not worthy of saying "these men are my brothers, these and no others".

National and religous Identity are the main foes of the "live and let live mentality" because although the libertarion practices what he preaches, there is usually a force totally opposite to the libertarion value system, which in turn will try to supress your ethical point of view.

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. Why do the absolutists and the totalitarianists have to dominate? Do you have that little faith in people?

In a single person situation this is fine as usually you will have the abilty to walk away. But in a global extreme when someone tries to push their moralistic agenda on the masses the libertarions philosophy would not get involved.

I propose the free exchange of ideas and opinions without fear of repression. This is probably the only belief I don't think I could ever abandon. From it springs everything else. I honestly think that if I sat down and talked to anyone for long enough I could convince them of the value of this concept.

Till the time comes where the moralistic agenda is being imposed upon the libertarion. (reminds me of a yiddish parable about a jew living in a small town hearing that the nazis were entering the neighboring towns and taking away his fellow jews. Hed say, "Ahh but this has nothing to do with me" Then they came to his town and took some of his neighbors away and when they asked him for help he replied "ahh but this has nothing to do with me" When they finally came to take him away, he looked around, but there was no one left to ask for help"

I frequently speak out when I see what I view as tyranny occurring around the world. Unfortunately due to my present circumstances it is difficult for me to do more than this. And your yiddish parable is actually a quotation by martin niemoller, a german protestant pastpr who was put into the concentration camps for speaking out against the Nazi regime. His original quotation was

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—
and there was no one left to speak out.

Yes people should enjoy the same liberties and freedoms the world out. But what is to be done about the people who wish to enjoy these freedoms, but are restricted under whatever regime controls said boundries. Trying to enforce libertarion beliefs upon these countries goes against the libertarion concept.

The libertarian concept is not quintessentially democratic, although I'm fairly sure it has so far always taken this path. I do not believe in the tyranny of the majority and while I don't think we have to change the world tomorrow I do hope that when I die we will all be in a better situation than when I was born. I don't think a man can ask for much more than that.

Hay long posts on the internet, it seems that I have lost the

[Fyodor]

Bah, I wanted to watch some TV

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I find this amazing. I have a few relatives myself who emigrated to the US and they all are full of praise for it. Is this a recent phenomenon? Both myself and my brother visited the US for 3 months, both of us worked although he in a slightly better paying job than I heh, and I don't remember doing that much bitching about it. The USA is supposedly the land of opportunity, your ancestors themselves most likely emigrated from a particular country at some time in the past. Immigration is what made the US what it is today. If you really love it so much, maybe you should look at what led to the country you're living in being brought about.

And I have quite a few friends who are here from wherever and happily earn income within these borders yet bad mouth the country at every opportunity. I guess it all comes down to perspective, you know somebody and I know somebody.

Yes the United States has always been the land of opportunity, give me your tired, your poor etc, but where/when does it stop? Emigration to the States was needed way back when in order to fill a void. That void has since been filled, yet people still stream here for a better life. I don’t blame them but as long there is a un employment problem in the states, we should not be accepting new immigrants until we can sustain those that are already here. Besides the unemployment issue, illegals drain public resources. I have a feeling within the next decade you will see the city of New York go in to bankruptcy due in part to the inability to cope with the amount of resources needed to spend on its illegal population

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I don't quite understand the drawing of lines between those from the Americas and those who are not. What on earth will we do with the half-Mexican half-Europeans immigrants in the US?

If two people in your town needed financial help or a place to stay, who would you help first if most things were equal the person who lived next door, or the person who lived across town?

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Surely everyone is dependent on public infrastructure (I doubt you'd function well without electricity or roads) so I'm not sure why you felt the need to point that out.

Someone who is here illegally does not have a social security number and therefore, if working is paid off of the books, hence, no taxes are collected from this individual. Therefore they become a drain on the rest of tax paying society. If we legalize these people, and collect taxes from them, we are apt to better support the infrastructure.

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Personally I am not a huge fan of foreign aid. Firstly there's a huge amount of corruption so it's extremely difficult to get aid to those who really need it without bribing half the government of whichever tin pot dictatorship is currently in charge.

This is the whole point to my negativity towards foreign aid. I am not heartless enough to not be moved by the pictures of extreme poverty that many of the world lives in. But how does one help them? My uncle had adopted a child through UNICEF and religiously sent money once a month. One day he read a report that most of the food that was sent in relief to the country in question sat on docks rotten due to the leaders of the said country trying to use it as a bargaining chip. Why bother to waste money if it does no good?

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I'm not quite sure if you understand the purpose or the history of NATO. Not to patronise you but it stands for North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and the last time I checked the US was on the other side of the North Atlantic. NATO was created for the purpose of defending the free world against totalitarianism (and whether or not this has been badly aimed at times) I find that a worthy goal. Incidentally do you know when Article V (the bit that says everyone in NATO agrees to treat an attack on one as an attack on all) was first activated? September 12th 2001. I'll leave it up to you to guess who activated it.

While NATO is a worthy goal, I don’t believe it serves any purpose for us in America and goes against my isolationist views. Europe’s problems are their problems. With the exception of Great Britain, who in NATO has had the United States Back time and time again? The US is the hub of NATO and to put it in Planetarion terms, what alliance would stick by another alliance who time and time again undermined its goals. The United States is far from always right, but if you look on the face of the last few decades military excursions, for the most part we’ve tried to do the right thing all while receiving limited emotional backing from our allies.

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Globalisation isn't really a policy you can "retreat" from. What exactly do you propose? That american companies are not allowed to operate outside the US? I think you'd find a lot of intelligent businessmen would quickly work out that there are better opportunities for profit abroad. I think we both agree that banning emigration is not a viable alternative if you have any respect for the core principles on which the USA was founded. Free trade is a central characteristic of the US.
How exactly do you imagine a retreat from globalisation can save the United States money?

I propose that rather then letting US based jobs go over seas while the head quarters of said job is based in the US, we tax the hell out of any company that sends more than say 15% of their man power needs over seas.

We retreat from globalization by not using tax payers money to finance countries like India’s IT infrastructure so that it can turn around and compete and demolish Americans ability to get IT jobs with US based companies.


Your next few paragraphs are very well said and fairly stuck to one point, so ill break my response down piece by piece

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Do you mean international outsourcing by this (as the words have popularly come to mean) or just outsourcing in general? Outsourcing is just an investment decision, of which the freedom to make is a core component of any capitalist system. The jobs lost to foreign countries are frequently made back up, albeit imperfectly. It's just creative destruction.

Tell that to the gentleman whose quality of life has eroded to the point where he has to work two jobs instead of one in order to make ends meet.

Tell that to the factory worker who now has to work double shifts at Wal-Mart in order to afford the things he once made that are now being made in a inhumane sweatshop in Bangladesh.

These are the jobs that are being made back up. And the capitalist system you speak of is what has become outdated.

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I think the old model of the nation-state as something which supports it's citizens from birth to death has become outdated. Taking care of it's own is not the responsibility of the government. If governments have shown us much, it's that they're corrupt, aggressive and inefficient at the best of times. Limit governmental power. To hell with the rest of the world?

It’s not about supporting its citizens, it’s about not taking away the ability of its citizens to support themselves in order to appease a small group of special interests.

The United states is slowly becoming a two class nation, the rich and the poor. The middle class is being split into either side, with more falling top the poor category. This doesn’t affect me to much as I work hard and constantly re educate myself to stay a head of the curve. But It does affect the 50 year old man with 2-3 kids in Uni and a wife who cant get a full time job at the local convenience store as all the jobs are taken by illegal immigrants.

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

If it really is true that terrorists are currently attacking the United States because they hate your freedom or success (I don't actually believe for a second that this is the case but many of your countrymen seem be of this belief) do you think they'll stop when you withdraw from all international relations?

I assume that terrorist are attacking my country for our meddling in middle eastern affairs. I assume they are waging war against us in order to defend their homeland. I don’t think that they should be called terrorists, I believe they should be called (to use an american revolution term)patriots.

So being this is my answer to the terrorist question, I also have to follow this with the idea that if we removed our noses from their business, yes they would stop.

What is your opinion as to why terrorist are attacking the states and what do you think it would take it to get them to stop?

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

You cannot erect walls around your country. That is not the way the world works, that is not the way people work. And thank god for that.

It may not be the way the world wants it to work, but a growing number of Americans who feel disenfranchised with our governments working, are beginning to want it to work this way.

If you look at our last 2 elections you will see that the country is almost evenly split as to which path it wishes to continue down (not in regards to globalization or isolation but in regards to political and moral views)

We have a growing number of American citizens calling themselves the Minutemen patrolling the california/texas/arizona and New Mexico borders hunting down illegal immigrants. We have pro immigration calling these minutemen racists and criminals. These 2 factions have clashed a few times already and all across the country, both sides gain support.

We have 4 states where Caucasians are now a minority yet the majority is disgustingly under represented in national government.

We have a republican President whose approval rating is at an all time low yet he now gets to put two of his cronies into the highest court in the land there bye putting roe vs. wade into a sense of jeopardy. This issue in itself is enough to cause an up roar on either side.

We have a displaced city/disaster after disaster, we have a horrible education system, and we have corruption on all fronts.

I can go on and on for hours about the civil problems of the United States, but what it all comes down to is we are in trouble. And before we can continue to get involved with the worlds mess, we need to clean our own house first.

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I have accepted it. I don't view myself as somehow intellectually or culturally superior to the rest of mankind. It's just a matter of education. Cultural identity, while of value, is not the most sensible or the most productive lines around which to base a country. I am not saying abolish history but national and tribal boundaries are not absolute and they are not worthy of saying "these men are my brothers, these and no others".

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. Why do the absolutists and the totalitarianists have to dominate? Do you have that little faith in people?

I propose the free exchange of ideas and opinions without fear of repression. This is probably the only belief I don't think I could ever abandon. From it springs everything else. I honestly think that if I sat down and talked to anyone for long enough I could convince them of the value of this concept.

I frequently speak out when I see what I view as tyranny occurring around the world. Unfortunately due to my present circumstances it is difficult for me to do more than this. And your yiddish parable is actually a quotation by martin niemoller, a german protestant pastpr who was put into the concentration camps for speaking out against the Nazi regime. His original quotation was


The libertarian concept is not quintessentially democratic, although I'm fairly sure it has so far always taken this path. I do not believe in the tyranny of the majority and while I don't think we have to change the world tomorrow I do hope that when I die we will all be in a better situation than when I was born. I don't think a man can ask for much more than that.

Hay long posts on the internet, it seems that I have lost the

While I agree with your prinicples I dont have faith in the people. History has proven itself time and time again, and it take a great man, or great group of men to come together to opose the face of tyrany. Humanity is by and large lazy, under educated and prone to believe what they are told.

A long while ago I read something that sums up my view of a majority of humanity. From the brothers karamazov i believe. In discussing jesus, the grand inquisitor says in summary, "the people dont need jesus, the people only need their daily bread."

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—
and there was no one left to speak out.

thanks for this, i did a search for the parables origins but didnt get a hit.

[Phang]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

While NATO is a worthy goal, I don’t believe it serves any purpose for us in America and goes against my isolationist views. Europe’s problems are their problems. With the exception of Great Britain, who in NATO has had the United States Back time and time again? The US is the hub of NATO and to put it in Planetarion terms, what alliance would stick by another alliance who time and time again undermined its goals. The United States is far from always right, but if you look on the face of the last few decades military excursions, for the most part we’ve tried to do the right thing all while receiving limited emotional backing from our allies.

Oh my

[Ste]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

Why does Fyodor think that this Forum needs another prattling, overly sensitive, delusional fool who will bore us all to death in order to correct percieved insults on america rather than even consider for a second that 'perhaps america is to blame for america's current problems'?

has he not seen that he is a carbon copy of Texan? of Whitetrash? of QuazokRogue5 et el et al et al?

Is the a factory somewhere in america producing these IDENTICAL clones? Are they genetically engineered to say such stupid things? Or is it rather a case of country wide indoctrination?

This is the worst sort of fanaticism the world knows!

The sort that clutters up my forum with constant streams of garbage.

Sorry Yahwe I disagree - He seems a much better poster than Texan (of late), whitetrash, qazokrouge5, qdeathstar etc.
He may be putting forward similar views but they're at least legible, not full of complete bollocks and backed up with some sort of argument.
We need posters with different opinions to keep the discussions alive.

[sigrid]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

Why does Fyodor think that this Forum needs another prattling, overly sensitive, delusional fool who will bore us all to death in order to correct percieved insults on america rather than even consider for a second that 'perhaps america is to blame for america's current problems'?

has he not seen that he is a carbon copy of Texan? of Whitetrash? of QuazokRogue5 et el et al et al?

Is the a factory somewhere in america producing these IDENTICAL clones? Are they genetically engineered to say such stupid things? Or is it rather a case of country wide indoctrination?

This is the worst sort of fanaticism the world knows!

The sort that clutters up my forum with constant streams of garbage.

You know Yukwe, i cant say it enuff, you disgust me. When other ppl post on this forum, and have an opinion different from yours (thank god), they have just as much right to post here as any other poster.
After reading your first lines in this post i could swear you would end it by saying...THEY HAVE ME ALREADY.
Whatever somebodys opinion is, you are not the one who decides if ppl can post here or not. And as far as cluttering up YOUR FORUM...since when is it yours? Its the GD forum of a game I PAY TO PLAY, I seem to recall you dont even play this game so who the fk are you to tell anybody?
If it was not for players of this game, this whole forum wouldnot excist and you would have no place to dump YOUR garbage. There are only a few ppl who actually make GOOD posts, and i may not be one of them but you are certainly not either.

[Marilyn Manson]

I'm curious about this obsession with NATO, since NATO has been an essentially irrelevant institution for over a decade.

Saying "Pull out of NATO and let Europe sort out it's own problems" would have actually meant something in 1975. Now it's a meaningless statement.

Oh, and you can't stop globalisation. No-one can.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

And I have quite a few friends who are here from wherever and happily earn income within these borders yet bad mouth the country at every opportunity. I guess it all comes down to perspective, you know somebody and I know somebody.

What do you mean by bad mouth? Do they disagree with it's foreign policy decisions? Constititution? General cultural and social outlook (where-ever exactly they are)? Do they propose not paying taxes until these changes come about? Is not the free exchanges of ideas something to be praised and not repressed?

Yes the United States has always been the land of opportunity, give me your tired, your poor etc, but where/when does it stop? Emigration to the States was needed way back when in order to fill a void. That void has since been filled, yet people still stream here for a better life. I don’t blame them but as long there is a un employment problem in the states, we should not be accepting new immigrants until we can sustain those that are already here. Besides the unemployment issue, illegals drain public resources. I have a feeling within the next decade you will see the city of New York go in to bankruptcy due in part to the inability to cope with the amount of resources needed to spend on its illegal population

There's been unemployment in the USA since christ was a carpenter and somehow it's made it this far with a fairly high number of immigrants. Illegal immigrants are a different matter altogether. There will always be an unemployment problem in the US, ie the unemployment rate will never reach 0%, due to the fact that full employment is not zero unemployment (I think the range is from about 4 to 6%).

If two people in your town needed financial help or a place to stay, who would you help first if most things were equal the person who lived next door, or the person who lived across town?

I probably wouldn't know about the person across town, however if I was fully aware of both I'd help whoever needed my assistance more, assuming that person showed any sort of willingness to attempt to get out of whatever unfortunate situation they were in.

Someone who is here illegally does not have a social security number and therefore, if working is paid off of the books, hence, no taxes are collected from this individual. Therefore they become a drain on the rest of tax paying society. If we legalize these people, and collect taxes from them, we are apt to better support the infrastructure.

Obviously, I asked why you felt the need to point this out?

This is the whole point to my negativity towards foreign aid. I am not heartless enough to not be moved by the pictures of extreme poverty that many of the world lives in. But how does one help them? My uncle had adopted a child through UNICEF and religiously sent money once a month. One day he read a report that most of the food that was sent in relief to the country in question sat on docks rotten due to the leaders of the said country trying to use it as a bargaining chip. Why bother to waste money if it does no good?

But it did not do "no good" did it? Most of the food sat on docks rotting away but some of it does get through. When it does it saves human lives. Work towards economic and political pressure being put on those governments so that corruption decreases.

While NATO is a worthy goal, I don’t believe it serves any purpose for us in America and goes against my isolationist views. Europe’s problems are their problems. With the exception of Great Britain, who in NATO has had the United States Back time and time again? The US is the hub of NATO and to put it in Planetarion terms, what alliance would stick by another alliance who time and time again undermined its goals. The United States is far from always right, but if you look on the face of the last few decades military excursions, for the most part we’ve tried to do the right thing all while receiving limited emotional backing from our allies.

But NATO was not formed to combat "Europe's problems". It was formed to combat the Soviet Union. It aims at being a collection of free states who will defend each other if one is attacked. I think you're overstating the "limited emotional backing" due to recent events. Bar the invasion of Iraq, the US has generally received full backing from NATO (obviously there are occasionally policy differences but those are part of the nature of any unrepressive political organisation), and seeing as American support for the war on Iraq is hardly skyrocketing I think some people may have had a valid point on that one.

I propose that rather then letting US based jobs go over seas while the head quarters of said job is based in the US, we tax the hell out of any company that sends more than say 15% of their man power needs over seas.

We retreat from globalization by not using tax payers money to finance countries like India’s IT infrastructure so that it can turn around and compete and demolish Americans ability to get IT jobs with US based companies.

Those companies will frequently just leave if you introduce excessive taxation. I think you've been misled on the negative effects of outsourcing. I would advise reading The Outsourcing Bogeyman. The United States gains between $1.12 and $1.14 for every dollar spent on outsourcing to India.

Tell that to the gentleman whose quality of life has eroded to the point where he has to work two jobs instead of one in order to make ends meet.

Tell that to the factory worker who now has to work double shifts at Wal-Mart in order to afford the things he once made that are now being made in a inhumane sweatshop in Bangladesh.

These are the jobs that are being made back up. And the capitalist system you speak of is what has become outdated.

When cars became more popular, hundreds of thousands of people lost their jobs in industries related to the horse and carriage. You need skills if you want to reap the benefits. When your skills become outdated it is not a sign that the system is failing, it is a sign that you need new skills, if the government organises educational courses that's perfectly fine. However artificially bolstering up the economy until eventually you're left behind economically and technologically is not an acceptable alternative.

It’s not about supporting its citizens, it’s about not taking away the ability of its citizens to support themselves in order to appease a small group of special interests.

The United states is slowly becoming a two class nation, the rich and the poor. The middle class is being split into either side, with more falling top the poor category. This doesn’t affect me to much as I work hard and constantly re educate myself to stay a head of the curve. But It does affect the 50 year old man with 2-3 kids in Uni and a wife who cant get a full time job at the local convenience store as all the jobs are taken by illegal immigrants.

As I stated above I don't support illegal immigration (not just for the fact it's against the law heh). Governments should enable people to reach their potential, not pull them up towards it. Current social welfare systems are not sustainable long-term, and while emergency aid has value protectionism has shown itself to be largely self-defeating.

I assume that terrorist are attacking my country for our meddling in middle eastern affairs. I assume they are waging war against us in order to defend their homeland. I don’t think that they should be called terrorists, I believe they should be called (to use an american revolution term)patriots.

So being this is my answer to the terrorist question, I also have to follow this with the idea that if we removed our noses from their business, yes they would stop.

What is your opinion as to why terrorist are attacking the states and what do you think it would take it to get them to stop?

I think the US is experiencing an increase in terrorist attacks because people have realised that they can hit back. I doubt that in the forseeable future a government will be elected in the US which supports the total abandonment of the state of Israel. It would be political suicide. Plus it would not be nice to see an anti-west islamic fundamentalist government take over all the Gulf states. Might become a little bit expensive to drive to work in the morning. Ignoring the impracticality of it all while I largely agree with the idea of fighting back when you are repressed. I disagree with the idea of national self-determination though. If we can acknowledge that human beings deserve to be treated the same across the world differences in legal systems should mostly become a thing of the past. To get them to stop I would advise informing them (broadly) why they should stop.

It may not be the way the world wants it to work, but a growing number of Americans who feel disenfranchised with our governments working, are beginning to want it to work this way.

If you look at our last 2 elections you will see that the country is almost evenly split as to which path it wishes to continue down (not in regards to globalization or isolation but in regards to political and moral views)

We have a growing number of American citizens calling themselves the Minutemen patrolling the california/texas/arizona and New Mexico borders hunting down illegal immigrants. We have pro immigration calling these minutemen racists and criminals. These 2 factions have clashed a few times already and all across the country, both sides gain support.

We have 4 states where Caucasians are now a minority yet the majority is disgustingly under represented in national government.

We have a republican President whose approval rating is at an all time low yet he now gets to put two of his cronies into the highest court in the land there bye putting roe vs. wade into a sense of jeopardy. This issue in itself is enough to cause an up roar on either side.

We have a displaced city/disaster after disaster, we have a horrible education system, and we have corruption on all fronts.

I can go on and on for hours about the civil problems of the United States, but what it all comes down to is we are in trouble. And before we can continue to get involved with the worlds mess, we need to clean our own house first.

If you abandon it the world's mess will quickly enough become your mess.

While I agree with your prinicples I dont have faith in the people. History has proven itself time and time again, and it take a great man, or great group of men to come together to opose the face of tyrany. Humanity is by and large lazy, under educated and prone to believe what they are told.

A long while ago I read something that sums up my view of a majority of humanity. From the brothers karamazov i believe. In discussing jesus, the grand inquisitor says in summary, "the people dont need jesus, the people only need their daily bread."

I disagree. By and large humanity is overworked and lacks the time to educate themselves or discover alternative points of view. Enable people to learn and see where that takes us.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Oh, and you can't stop globalisation. No-one can.

Jesus could

[Marilyn Manson]

Yeah, but Jesus was a Communist.

'Socialise everything.'

That's the policy of Mr Christ.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

I propose that rather then letting US based jobs go over seas while the head quarters of said job is based in the US, we tax the hell out of any company that sends more than say 15% of their man power needs over seas.

We retreat from globalization by not using tax payers money to finance countries like India’s IT infrastructure so that it can turn around and compete and demolish Americans ability to get IT jobs with US based companies.

The beauty (and problem) with economics is that it assumes land, labour and capital (LLC) are flexible and can be shifted easily.

Using this theory, there is nothing wrong with outsourcing to places like India, China etc.. where the labour is cheaper and often better. It gives the LLC the opportunity to shift resources into something they can better compete at. The yanks aren't simply as good or as cheap as certain sections in the service market. This was evident in the manufacturing sense, since half of the work is now done in china and other countries.

The problem with modern economic systems is that the average Joe american thinks that a given salary of $40k a year or whatever they pay you is the minimum he should expect for writing a piece of software code. The fact that they are unwilling to take a pay hike to compete against cheaper labour does not help him or his economy. He should bite his lip, realise there are better people out there than him who are willing to do it for a lot less and use his time and resources to do something better. Hence himself and the economy will gain.

The economy will gain because 1) What would have cost a company(s) $40k a year to write 10 pieces of code, now costs them $10k a year to write 20 pieces of code, hence greater savings, cheaper consumer goods, more money for investment etc... 2) The now redundant worker can spend his time learning and researching into a new field, either forcing him to better his IT knowledge such that he is better than the foreign competition and is a service benefit to his country, or to scrap the IT field and shift his skills into something else that is needed and hence make a contribution to the economy there.

Tell that to the gentleman whose quality of life has eroded to the point where he has to work two jobs instead of one in order to make ends meet.

Why should he be guaranteed payment? What gives him that right? As above he should bite lip and realise he simply isn't good enough to compete in this world and should look for alternative ways to exercise his knowledge and labour productive.

Tell that to the factory worker who now has to work double shifts at Wal-Mart in order to afford the things he once made that are now being made in a inhumane sweatshop in Bangladesh.

This is a common used excuse by western workers who are upset that their jobs are being shifted over. Do you think the Bangladeshis really cares about the conditions he is working in? Do you think a person who is currently working in a sweatshop being paid $1 a day is going to make that sort of money trying to sell rubbish to equally poor people on the street? At least he is making income - he chooses to work in these places and that is better for him and his family than making no money sitting on his fat ass. So stop worrying about the conditions and his poor pay - he doesn't care.

The United states is slowly becoming a two class nation, the rich and the poor. The middle class is being split into either side, with more falling top the poor category. This doesn’t affect me to much as I work hard and constantly re educate myself to stay a head of the curve. But It does affect the 50 year old man with 2-3 kids in Uni and a wife who cant get a full time job at the local convenience store as all the jobs are taken by illegal immigrants.

You americans complain even when white collar professionals come in. "So and So immigrants are taking our sons jobs", "so and so immigrants are working for less than we are willing to work for". Illegal immigrants are a problem but at the end of the day, much of the american economy depends on them. America should be thankful that so many immigrants, illegal and legal are coming in. It is one of the factors keeping the working population of america young and growing. The problem facing europe is that the working population is shrinking and ageing. This is going to hit us hard in a decade or so when there aren't enough young to support the ageing. So tell the 50 year old mans wife, to again bite her lip and go find another job. Stop thinking that it is your god given right to be guaranteed the nicest and best jobs.

Economic studies also show that generally illegal immigrants do not have a detrimental economic effect on the economy - yes even after all the welfare they may claim, they still manage to have a slightly +ve effect on the economy. It is a common misconception that they are an overall drain. However of course being economics it doesn't explore the social side of the argument and this is where the argument should stand - on the social problems rather than economical ones.

It seems that after all this there is going to be a lot of people biting their lips.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Ste

Sorry Yahwe I disagree - He seems a much better poster than Texan (of late), whitetrash, qazokrouge5, qdeathstar etc.
He may be putting forward similar views but they're at least legible, not full of complete bollocks and backed up with some sort of argument.

I see you've not been reading his posts.

[G.K Zhukov]

Since Im not getting paid for this, I won't bother telling you about all your mistakes here Fyodor.
But I will try to correct you on your worst (oh where to start..)

Originally Posted by Fyodor

A) The annexation? of the phillipines was a military move and not much of economic value.

Eh, becouse a country does a military move without thinking about the economical consequences? And for your information, there is several things in the Philipines that is worth something, the most well know resource beeing natural rubber. The country is still under semi-colonial rule, in the hands of the U.S.

Originally Posted by Fyodor

D) Slavery was a world wide problem at the time with many nations adhering to the same policy. Slavery was abolished in the states in the 1860's yet was still used for cheap labor in the 20th century by countries such as Japan and Germany

As slave trade was mostly outlawed during the begining of 1800 in Europe.. The blacks were still slaves in all but name, long after the end of the civil war in 1864. "Reconstruction" (if you are familiar with that term/project) was shut down, and the north led the landowners of the south continue as not much have happened. And segrationn still existed in the 1960's. Its correct that Japan and Germany used slave labour during WWII, but then we call the regimes for facism and nazimsm. Not "home of the free and brave".

Originally Posted by Fyodor

From what I can gather the united states spends about 9 billion per year in humanitarion foreign aid. I dont have any numbers on the amount it spends in military aid. ( 9 Billion is a paltry sum in the grand scheme of things, but who are you to critizise what the US gives out?) Why should US tax payers be stradled with supporting other countries who can never seem to get their shit together?

In regards to your condemnation of supplying military aid to guatamala, i could have sworn it was done to prevent the spread of communism. Once again, I dont agree with the role we are playing with our military aid, but i doubt there was much criticism when the united states tried to help finance the stoppage of national socialisms spread.

So killing 2-300.000 people is okey, as long as its done in the name of anti-communism.
I also wonder what you mean by "national socialisms spread". No, the people killed in Guatemala (or Vietnam, Laos, Zaire etc) wasnt "national socialists" (are you aware it's called nazims for short), most of them have hardly heard about Adolf Hitler. Most of them were not communists either (Karl Marx who?), but simply people who supported the guerrias in hope of a better life, or who was opposed to the local dicator.
And 9billion dollars per year is hardly much, compared to the 280 million people living in the US, is it. When it comes to the damage your country have done in the world, the repayment will take "some time".

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Since Im not getting paid for this, I won't bother telling you about all your mistakes here Fyodor.

Like all good communists.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

Like all good communists.

There is about 270million uneducated americans out there. I hardly have the time to do 1 to 1 traning session with em.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBGood

I have accepted it. [liberalism] I don't view myself as somehow intellectually or culturally superior to the rest of mankind. It's just a matter of education. Cultural identity, while of value, is not the most sensible or the most productive lines around which to base a country. I am not saying abolish history but national and tribal boundaries are not absolute and they are not worthy of saying "these men are my brothers, these and no others".

The world isn't a paradise where everyone is working their hardest for the betterment of man kind and everyone gets along. Most individuals are actually working to meet their own wants or needs, not to achieve a fair and equal distribution of global ressources. The strong cultural and historic diffrences between countries naturally leads to conflict as these groups have diffrent ideas on how to run things and how to live. You also ignore the struggle for limited power different groups and individuals tend to partake in.

The main reason the first world hasn't been clamoring to break down borders and completely distrubte wealth to the rest of the world or treat the rest of humanity 'as their brothers' is because of the extreme sacrfice and lifestyle change the people currently living in first world borders would have to make. This type of behavior is rarely seen, even within a country where there's more then enough to go around.

Do you even practice what you preech? I'd like to know more about your secure, high paying job and how much you give to your fellow man.

But it did not do "no good" did it? Most of the food sat on docks rotting away but some of it does get through. When it does it saves human lives. Work towards economic and political pressure being put on those governments so that corruption decreases.

But it would better for americans to invest foreign-aid money in their own, less corrupt country. People are still in need there. Distribution would be much easier and more food would reach starving mouths. Keep in mind Fyodor’s orginial suggestion was based on how best to improve America, not third world countries

Those companies will frequently just leave if you introduce excessive taxation. I think you've been misled on the negative effects of outsourcing. I would advise reading The Outsourcing Bogeyman. The United States gains between $1.12 and $1.14 for every dollar spent on outsourcing to India.

Doesn't that profit come from people working like pack mules in miserable conditions and for inhumane wages? Doesn't that profit mainly benefit the upper crust of american society at the expense of other americans? I can see how numerically, the rich make alot more then the middle and lower classes lose due to outsourcing... but overall, becoming dependent on other countries for your means of production seems like a bad idea to me.

When cars became more popular, hundreds of thousands of people lost their jobs in industries related to the horse and carriage. You need skills if you want to reap the benefits. When your skills become outdated it is not a sign that the system is failing, it is a sign that you need new skills, if the government organises educational courses that's perfectly fine. However artificially bolstering up the economy until eventually you're left behind economically and technologically is not an acceptable alternative.

Using that example, there was a sizable new intustry that offered jobs to replace the ones lost. When you outsource an industry, it's not being replaced, cheaper labor is being found elsewhere.

If you abandon it the world's mess will quickly enough become your mess.

When they try a hands on approach they're hated anyways. :|
I think their choice to only deal with messes that America can potentially profit from is the best one. For America anyways.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Duncan

The world isn't a paradise where everyone is working their hardest for the betterment of man kind and everyone gets along. Most individuals are actually working to meet their own wants or needs, not to achieve a fair and equal distribution of global ressources. The strong cultural and historic diffrences between countries naturally leads to conflict as these groups have diffrent ideas on how to run things and how to live. You also ignore the struggle for limited power different groups and individuals tend to partake in.

The main reason the first world hasn't been clamoring to break down borders and completely distrubte wealth to the rest of the world or treat the rest of humanity 'as their brothers' is because of the extreme sacrfice and lifestyle change the people currently living in first world borders would have to make. This type of behavior is rarely seen, even within a country where there's more then enough to go around.

Do you even practice what you preech? I'd like to know more about your secure, high paying job and how much you give to your fellow man.

I don't really support and sort of social welfare or widespread health services or anything like that so don't worry I'm hardly proposing some sort of economically left-wing utopia here. I'm currently looking for a job (i've taken a year out from college). Most of my disposable income I gain from playing poker (I still live at home due to the horribly overpriced nature of renting a flat in Dublin so have few base costs to worry about). I'd hesitate before putting forward a definite figure but I'd guess about 20-30 euro a month. Whenever I have a big win I like to give a bit more though.

But it would better for americans to invest foreign-aid money in their own, less corrupt country. People are still in need there. Distribution would be much easier and more food would reach starving mouths. Keep in mind Fyodor’s orginial suggestion was based on how best to improve America, not third world countries

There aren't exactly a huge (comparatively) number of people dying of starvation in the US are there? Of course deal with these first. I don't think you can improve a country in isolation in the modern world, not to mention I obviously disagree with most of the concepts inherent in the word "country".

Doesn't that profit come from people working like pack mules in miserable conditions and for inhumane wages? Doesn't that profit mainly benefit the upper crust of american society at the expense of other americans? I can see how numerically, the rich make alot more then the middle and lower classes lose due to outsourcing... but overall, becoming dependent on other countries for your means of production seems like a bad idea to me.

Not exactly, IT support centres are not quite sweat shops. It's not really just "the rich" making more money from outsourcing. Nor is there any meaningful dependence on other countries (it's not like it's excessively difficult if you have to relocate these jobs back home).

Using that example, there was a sizable new intustry that offered jobs to replace the ones lost. When you outsource an industry, it's not being replaced, cheaper labor is being found elsewhere.

Both are just examples of skills becoming less valuable than they once were. Outsourcing is a bit of an economic bogey man anyways. Something like only 16% of economists surveyed by the Wall Street Journal said that outsourcing had a significant impact on the overall employment scene.

When they try a hands on approach they're hated anyways. :|
I think their choice to only deal with messes that America can potentially profit from is the best one. For America anyways.

I'd agree. I just think that most events can have good or bad effects on the US.