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Unread 31 May 2007, 19:13   #1
Tietäjä
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Rules enforcement

Dear, this must be one of my favourite topics, as I'm ranting about this again. There was a discussion on the other thread regarding whatnots and wherenots of a case where the closed planet felt treaten harshly, and it struck to me as very similar to my own case. Actually, superficially, it is very similar. Where differences arise, is where the two people, one dumb, hasty, and anxious, another cooler, more planning, and with resourceful friends, go different. The first faces the police about his infridgements, and talks hastily and carelessly, and gets closed. The second takes caution, asks advice from his experienced friends, and knows how to sweet talk himself out of it.

Looking at it on perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kileman
Dear B|nTaRa,

Please crash into me - I could use the salvage.

Regards,
Kileman
Quote:
Originally Posted by B|nTaRa
dear sir,

i know im alone attacking u , may i ask a favour from u ? could u please let me land ? please send away ur anti fr , with ur help , i can boost my score ALOT , thats all im asking from u cause i know deep inside ur heart , u r a kind man. i attack u because u can boost my score , atm im just top 700 , i really need this land , which can boost me to top 300 or less , please sir , help me .

Regards,
B|nTaRa
The key parts for those who didn't follow the conversation here.

The basic idea is, that B|nTara suggested Kileman a rules breach in order to gain advantage. On this case, B|nTara was closed. No actual farming happened.

The rule that sealed B|nTara's fate:

Quote:
[20:32:16] <Fiery> trying to get someone else to cheat is another rule
Quote:
Originally Posted by arc
I've got some of my co trapped. Mind if you recall your nightmare and Ill offer you a max cap. Thanks.
The key part of the other instance. On this case, neither myself nor arc got closed. I did recall my attack, though, mainly because it was of vamps only, and was set as a fake attack just for giggles, while the whole of my fleet was defending fAst. So, once I received the mail, I went to the multihunters to discuss the incident. I reported the mail, and aptly decided to mail back to arc (after he had landed on me, and I had recalled my fleet, so the situation was at that point resolved).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keizari
Ok. When do i get my max cap?
A reply came.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arc
just send enough fi pod tonite
After this, I asked the multihunter if I am to test if he is actually going further to the rules breach. At this point, arc had already commited a rules breach twice. He could defend himself by stating it's "standard mail tactics" (although B|nTara could equally use this excuse), but it wouldn't resolve why he replied to my bait later on, after the situation had resolved (and yes I am aware of my actions, feel free to close my account).

Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
18.6. Miscellaneous cheating
(a) Attempts to encourage other planets to break the rules will be considered
a breach of this agreement
So, the multihunter replied.

Quote:
[18:59:55] <Keiz`afk> check
[18:59:57] <Keiz`afk> i reported another mail
[19:00:29] <Keiz`afk> do i need to build fi-pods and launch at him for us both to get closed for roid farming or will he get closed?
[19:04:36] <Fiery|cranky> you don't need to do anything else
[19:04:46] <Keiz`afk> k, good, that'd get me on the cheating line too!
This is where the second case ends. No actual farming happened, the situation was resolved as a dead end as was the first case. After I had read about the B|nTara case at work, I was baffled. I decided to purge more into it, and asked the multihunter in question, why, with the given evidence, the descisions ran like they did. The answer was manyfold. I'll clip quotes, as I'm not allowed to turn the thread into an IRC quote drivel. So I was enquirying, why arc wasn't closed, but B|nTara was. It took a little bit of pushing.

Quote:
[20:34:30] <Fiery> arc gave a passable excuse
[20:35:30] <Fiery> arc was smarter
What's intriguing here, is that B|nTara has "admitted" to breaking this rule, and arc has "pleaded not quilty". It's strange, really, why for the exact same ingame actions two people are judged different. The lesson learned. Whenever you're closed by a multihunter, you should contact someone experienced and someone who has been dealing with the multihunters for long. Your actual rules violations mean nothing, as you might be slashed off purely based on a bad choice of words. It's a strange allegory to real life, or, at least Hollywood films. Never talk to the clever cop without a lawyer, they'll try trip and trick you into a confession that will throw you in, when you could have, by talking to a smarter friend of yours for advice, gotten with a minor warning and a shoo shoo.

Tough luck, B|nTara, next time you have to deal with the multihunters, contact someone, me, for example. I'm okay to give advice on how to deal with them, and I have some experience of it, too. Good one, arc, having wielklem work your case out. Enjoy the last day of the round! Back to my drivel. This is "yet" another view why the rules enforcement squad, the multihunters, really seem to be getting lost out there. I used to think that cheating is something that happens in the game, and that you're judged under your in-game actions, not your verbal talent. Many may come up with lots of examples regarding 1up and eXilition duo that has obviously been treaten different, perhaps due to multihunter bias, perhaps due to incompetence. One multihunter may choose to close a planet on the same grounds another planet goes off with a warning. Really, the punishment regarding cheating shouldn't rely on how dumb you are on an IRC conversation, or do we really need rules lawyers around to help players around with the multihunter tantrums?
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Unread 31 May 2007, 19:42   #2
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Re: Rules enforcement

/me eagerly anticipates the mh reply. Nice posting!
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Unread 31 May 2007, 19:51   #3
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Re: Rules enforcement

Tbh, I'm still surprised that Fiery was made head of MH department
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Unread 31 May 2007, 19:55   #4
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Re: Rules enforcement

what these rules can only be enforced subjectively?
what?
that'd make no sense
(lo support planet rule)
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Unread 31 May 2007, 20:02   #5
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Re: Rules enforcement

Smudge is against woman in power!
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Unread 31 May 2007, 20:08   #6
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Re: Rules enforcement

Nope, if she was up to the job I'd back her but she gets too, well, tempermental easily and has always had a bias towards different players / groups of players, even when I was in MH team.

And I never dissed Appoco when he was running the show ;p
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Unread 31 May 2007, 20:11   #7
Tietäjä
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
And I never dissed Appoco when he was running the show ;p

Assassin was the master bias too.
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Unread 31 May 2007, 20:23   #8
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Re: Rules enforcement

Tietaja uses far too many commas, but his post speaks volumes.

I stand by this summary of Bintara's closure:

He's been closed for a non event which has been sensationalised by the MH staff. A warning and fleet recall would have been the most appropriate action for an event which didn't and wouldn't have even taken place.
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Unread 31 May 2007, 20:31   #9
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Re: Rules enforcement

If she had boobies like Appocco i doubt she would be dissed
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Unread 31 May 2007, 20:54   #10
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Re: Rules enforcement

Indeed.

Appoco has manboobs which are indeed the definition of FTW
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Unread 31 May 2007, 23:44   #11
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Re: Rules enforcement

When bringing this up, we could probably also bring up alliance politics.

If your alliance have a nap with another alliance. And you launch on a planet from that alliance, not knowing your doing it, but doing it without checking with anyone who can verify that your target is not friendly.
Basically you will get 2 choises, recall right away. Land and we let the friendly alliance roid you without yuo getting defence.

So you can then decide, recall and not get roids, land get roided and maybe lose ships if you want to fight them. Something who probably wount be very much liked by the friendly alliance.

Whats the difference on this and other farming ?
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 06:09   #12
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Re: Rules enforcement

Those are standards set by alliance HC. If you get roided by a friendly alliance because you landed on them, it's because your alliance decided not to defend you--not you personally consenting. You have the "option" of saying FO to your alliance, and leaving.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 07:02   #13
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Re: Rules enforcement

I really think this is a lot simpler than a lot of you are making out.
Sure the rules are stated, but just like real life laws (was it REALLY premeditated murder or was it actually self defense?) there are often extremely murky gray areas and some interpretation is required. Given the nature of this game, and the sort of posts that have been made in these two threads, thats obviously an extremely painful, tedious and thankless task.

Under those circumstances (and in real life sadly) the way the accused behaves is obviously going to affect that process.

Yes there may be a few innocent hotheads with potty mouths and trout slapping twitches that get closed, but they enjoy a very valuable life lesson, and by the same token there will be guilty players that are able to smooth talk their way out of it which sucks a lot more in my opinion, but what can you do?

It happens in real life too!

Its not fair, but letting everyone off / busting everyone are clearly retarded ways of dealing with it (and these are normally the closest thing that threads like these come to dealing with what is a real problem).

Quote:
He's been closed for a non event which has been sensationalised by the MH staff.
That is blatantly not true. The MH were not the ones that made stupid threads about this, or spammed numerous alliance channels on IRC by way of some horribly misguided attempt at an appeal. Plus, would you HONESTLY bet one of your testicles that this guy wasn't actually daft enough to really be trying to make a deal with Kileman? On the basis of what Ive seen I'd not risk mine, and god knows I don't get much use out of them.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 07:05   #14
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Re: Rules enforcement

its been oversensationalised by those rallying to his cause.
The only agenda here is that carried by those people trying to 'stick it to the man', not of any genuine concern or belief that he is entirely innocent and indeed intelligent.
Its one big bandwagon for everyone who has a grievance about individuals, or a general disdain for authority to jump on.

Fact is he broke a rule, had evidence provided which showed him breaking that rule and was punished for it. End of story
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 07:26   #15
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
its been oversensationalised by those rallying to his cause.
The only agenda here is that carried by those people trying to 'stick it to the man', not of any genuine concern or belief that he is entirely innocent and indeed intelligent.
Its one big bandwagon for everyone who has a grievance about individuals, or a general disdain for authority to jump on.

Fact is he broke a rule, had evidence provided which showed him breaking that rule and was punished for it. End of story
Okay, so can you tell me where in the rules it says you have to be intelligent to avoid being closed for breaking the rules?
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 07:27   #16
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Okay, so can you tell me where in the rules it says you have to be intelligent to avoid being closed for breaking the rules?
It doesnt, the intelligence part comes into it for those who want to believe "he isnt stupid enough to have actually been trying to do it for real"
Personally, i think that part is entirely irrelevent. Regardless of motive there was a rule broken and he was punished for it. Its only in my previous post to cater for those grasping at straws
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 11:57   #17
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
Those are standards set by alliance HC. If you get roided by a friendly alliance because you landed on them, it's because your alliance decided not to defend you--not you personally consenting. You have the "option" of saying FO to your alliance, and leaving.
You're disagreeing with yourself. First you say you're not responsible, because it's alliance HCs who decide if you get defended from a retal or not. Then you say it's your own fault, because if you really didn't want to get roided, you could leave your alliance, thereby implying that not doing so makes one guilty of farming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
The only agenda here is that carried by those people trying to 'stick it to the man', not of any genuine concern or belief that he is entirely innocent and indeed intelligent.
You're making it seem as if we have some kind of secret agenda. This thread is not about whether person X or Y is guilty or not, it's about the fact that the current rules are either hard to enforce, or are not being enforced correctly. The two examples Keiz gave are just that, examples. Therefore your comments are just useless babbeling. But feel free to discuss the conspiracy further in that other thread.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 1 Jun 2007 at 12:03.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 12:01   #18
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
its been oversensationalised by those rallying to his cause.
The only agenda here is that carried by those people trying to 'stick it to the man', not of any genuine concern or belief that he is entirely innocent and indeed intelligent.
Its one big bandwagon for everyone who has a grievance about individuals, or a general disdain for authority to jump on.

Fact is he broke a rule, had evidence provided which showed him breaking that rule and was punished for it. End of story
Fact is MH's ****ed it up. You're a ****ing moron Phil^.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 12:02   #19
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Fact is MH's ****ed it up. You're a ****ing moron Phil^.
How diplomatic of you
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 12:13   #20
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You're making it seem as if we have some kind of secret agenda. This thread is not about whether person X or Y is guilty or not, it's about the fact that the current rules are either hard to enforce, or are not being enforced correctly.
That may have been the *intent* but as i pointed out, bintaras case has simply become a bandwagon for people to jump on.

Currently in this thread, you have smudge railing against fiery, keizari railing against assassin, shyne railing against all multihunters, stoom taking the opportunity to troll me, and no doubt there will be others later on in this thread taking the opportunity to jump on.

This isnt about the rules, their applicability or enforcability. this is about people taking the opportunity to push their own agendas - using the pretense that bintara has somehow caused a precident when infact its a simple open and shut case.

This thread cannot be constructive imo while it cites recent example in an attempt to form policy ( and affect change on bintaras behalf ) via the forums. It was doomed from the beginning to fall into this predictable pattern
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 12:20   #21
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Re: Rules enforcement

you do think a lot of yourself dont you
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 12:24   #22
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Re: Rules enforcement

while there is some more or less subtle trolling included in this thread you fail to see something, or just chose not to see it: the rules are beeing enforced inconsistently which pisses a lot of ppl off. i think that is the reason why Stoom made his post, so don't play the poor victim who got flamed by Stoom out of nowhere and try to understand the complaints that are made here.

they are very valid and as long as the rules are enforced inconsistently, depending on how smart you are, how good your rhetorical skills are, or if you got friends in the PA crew or the MH department more ppl will get pissed off. in my opinion this hurts the game and i can not understand why you, a former member of the PA crew, who (i think) wants this game to stay alive, keeps defending this absolutly shitty set of rules and how they are enforced.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 12:27   #23
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Re: Rules enforcement

what the **** phil, x got closed for doing z, whilst y didn't. that's wrong, there's no two ways about it. there's no bullshit around, there's no more need for any sort of your idiocy - the mh's screwed up, there's no denying it. what should be looked at it is how to avoid such situations ever again.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 12:28   #24
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
This isnt about the rules, their applicability or enforcability. this is about people taking the opportunity to push their own agendas - using the pretense that bintara has somehow caused a precident when infact its a simple open and shut case.
No, really. This thread is about discussing the enforcement of the rules. At the state of issues at the moment, as was said, it seems that the better verbal talent and fast talking skills you have, the more likely you are to get away with "it". I find this unfair. Cheating is something that happens in the game, when people break the rules set by the administration. A bore run of real life allegories comes down to a scenario where the naughty person who can afford to get the best attorney to defend him (an example how the given cases went: wielklem was advicing arc, B|nTara was obviously standing for himself) beats the justice. What might further elaborate the incident, is, that my case was dealt by Fiery, and the other case by Ace - this can also come down to a discussion whether the which multihunter you are dealing with has an effect on the outcome. A lot of people may have an opinion this, and if they're interested in representing them, please do so with some words to back it up.

If the rules are too complicated to be enforced with a static level instead of the dynamic "who is your attorney, who is your judge" sceme, there may be a solid reason to start working on the rules. Especially when a player gets closed for something as meager as an ingame mail (with no warnings whatsoever), and another gets away with it (and the bottom line seems to be the one was smart with an experienced advisor and the other one was an utter idiot with no help). If it comes down the line that the outcome is decided by factors other than the actual violation, it does need to be discussed.

ps. The person who feels I don't like Assassin because he was right about my alliance (which one, and what was he right about?) could perhaps elaborate more specifically. I've spent the current round in the same alliance with Assassin, and I have no "problem" with him as person. I just found his multihunting lacking.

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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 12:37   #25
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kileman
Dear B|nTaRa,

Please crash into me - I could use the salvage.

Regards,
Kileman




Quote:
Originally Posted by B|nTaRa
dear sir,

i know im alone attacking u , may i ask a favour from u ? could u please let me land ? please send away ur anti fr , with ur help , i can boost my score ALOT , thats all im asking from u cause i know deep inside ur heart , u r a kind man. i attack u because u can boost my score , atm im just top 700 , i really need this land , which can boost me to top 300 or less , please sir , help me .

Regards,
B|nTaRa
If the formal sarcastic tone in this message isnt enough to see the joke.. Im not sure what is..

I am sure there is a reasoning behind the closure, but personally I think its appalling that it was done
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 12:49   #26
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
while there is some more or less subtle trolling included in this thread you fail to see something, or just chose not to see it: the rules are beeing enforced inconsistently which pisses a lot of ppl off.
Of course i can see that inconsistancies are annoying, i find them annoying too but its an imperfect world.
It would be great if they could be enforced 100% in all cases equally - this is a highly desirable outcome, but i dont think they are being enforced all that inconsistantly, personally.

Everyone on the recieving end of punishment - hates it. It is an obvious reaction to assume that they are being picked on and one perpetuated by others in an attempt to claim bias even if its a load of nonsense. It makes life difficult for the multihunters and much easier for others who may be caught in the future to evade punishment

There are going to be times when one hunter does things differently to another, but thats why theres a leader for multihunters - they make the final call on cases, everything rests with them if you think your case hasnt been handled well by another.
Ive posted in the other thread about how i would have handled the case, personally but im not the one who warned him, or closed him. All i can give is an opinion ( and a bit of reasoning as to how the 'abusive language' reason appeared on the email )

Something else to keep in mind, closure is not the end of the process - it is the middle. Once closed you have an appeal against the decision, this is where those who are more skilled at making excuses can get off when they really shouldnt have. Its really irritating but hard to prevent if you want people to have a reasonable chance to prove their innocence. Gathered evidence can go a long way to mitigate the chance of a guilty party getting away without punishment but it is not without problems of its own - for instance there is a limit to what you can actually gather in a browser based game and there are ( moderately well ) known ways to avoid detection completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
i think that is the reason why Stoom made his post, so don't play the poor victim who got flamed by Stoom out of nowhere and try to understand the complaints that are made here.
Not quite. Stoom saw an opportunity to have a laugh and took it.
See above rg understanding of complaints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
they are very valid and as long as the rules are enforced inconsistently, depending on how smart you are, how good your rhetorical skills are, or if you got friends in the PA crew or the MH department more ppl will get pissed off.
Yes, complaints about inconsistancy are valid, if they have merit. I dont think they do since I cant see evidence that one hunter treats different people in different ways, or that certain groups of people are being ignored and others deliberately picked on.
I see absolutely no bias, or evidence that having friends in pateam helps you in any way. The only ones claiming any form of bias are those who have something to gain from it or mistakenly think they are being picked on ( see above ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
in my opinion this hurts the game and i can not understand why you, a former member of the PA crew, who (i think) wants this game to stay alive, keeps defending this absolutly shitty set of rules and how they are enforced.
Indeed i do want this game to stay alive, and i believe that it requires rules to maintain order and prevent one subsection of the community from turning it into a farce. Such a thing would imo drive others ( who do play by the rules and understand the need for them ) away for good.

A reasonable chunk of the rules have come about because of people, not satisfied with playing on an even footing with others trying to gain what has been considered as an unfair advantage over other players. Subsequently a rule has been drafted to prevent it.
You could get rid of them all and ask people to play fairly but do you honestly think they would, if there was an increased probability of winning by not doing so?
I dont, therefore i think the rules must remain and be applied. Simply removing them and claiming its fair because all people can do it isnt a reasonable action to take since not everyone considers it fair to do so.
Anarchists may love it, but not everyone is an anarchist.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 12:50   #27
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
what the **** phil, x got closed for doing z, whilst y didn't. that's wrong, there's no two ways about it. there's no bullshit around, there's no more need for any sort of your idiocy - the mh's screwed up, there's no denying it. what should be looked at it is how to avoid such situations ever again.
what should be done is clear. If bintara feels his case hasnt been handled well, he should take it to fiery as head of the department for a final say. Not to the forums in an attempt to get mob justice done

furthermore, it is up to her to enforce consistancy and identify inconsistancy within the mh department, not any of us
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 13:08   #28
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Not quite. Stoom saw an opportunity to have a laugh and took it.
See above rg understanding of complaints.
Not quite, since everyone else in here is responding to your rants with more rants, I tried to make you see it in 1 simple line.
You're being a complete idiot Phil^ by justifying this kind of shit. It also shows how you acted as a MH if you indeed condone this shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
what should be done is clear. If bintara feels his case hasnt been handled well, he should take it to fiery as head of the department for a final say. Not to the forums in an attempt to get mob justice done

furthermore, it is up to her to enforce consistancy and identify inconsistancy within the mh department, not any of us
What should be done is MH's taking responsibility for once and either close arc or open B|ntara. Mob justice doesn't have anything to do with it, since Keizari already pointed this out on IRC to Fiery herself.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 13:17   #29
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Not quite, since everyone else in here is responding to your rants with more rants, I tried to make you see it in 1 simple line.
You're being a complete idiot Phil^ by justifying this kind of shit. It also shows how you acted as a MH if you indeed condone this shit.
I really do wonder at times if you are capable of forming a logical, coherent thought without giving up and just resorting to insults instead.
try reading with an open mind, no preconceptions or a thought process that goes "omg its phil, must...insult...".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
What should be done is MH's taking responsibility for once and either close arc or open B|ntara. Mob justice doesn't have anything to do with it, since Keizari already pointed this out on IRC to Fiery herself.
and it is up to fiery to do this as the head of the department. The thread bintara made is a very transparent attempt to enlist the community for the mob justice you say has nothing to do with it. This thread is an attempt to force policy ( and a specific outcome ) through vaguely similar means but also tries to form a reasonable discussion on the matter. Unfortunately while recent example is cited, as i have said before, this second outcome isnt likely to occur well - it acts as a distraction to the real topic at hand. It would probably be better to split the thread into two and move the reasonable discussion side to the suggestions forum
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 13:24   #30
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Re: Rules enforcement

stoom made an excellent point with the whole "You're being a complete idiot Phil^ by justifying this kind of shit. It also shows how you acted as a MH if you indeed condone this shit." thing to be fair with you
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 13:34   #31
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
stoom made an excellent point with the whole "You're being a complete idiot Phil^ by justifying this kind of shit. It also shows how you acted as a MH if you indeed condone this shit." thing to be fair with you
No jer, he didnt.
Had he actually tried to read my posts with an open mind he wouldnt have come to the conclusion that im trying to justify what the mh did or did not do.

key points of what ive said, summarised :
  • this thread is being used as a bandwagon for those who have an agenda to push it.
  • the thread may have started with the best of intentions but cannot achieve its goal so long as recent example is cited in order to affect a change on bintaras behalf
  • inconsistancies are bad
  • not everyone claiming there is bias against them is correct
  • there is a procedure for when there is inconsistancy with multihunters - it leads directly to the head of the department for a final say
  • being closed is not the end, there is the appeal process to consider
  • it is very hard to prevent those skilled at making excuses from getting away, but keep it possible for those who are genuinely innocent to prove themselves
  • I dont see any evidence that bintara was picked on for who he was or what section of the community he belonged to
  • rules = good, no rules = bad
  • what bintara needs to do is appeal his case to fiery, not come running to the forums
  • it is fierys job to manage the multihunters, not the forums
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 13:55   #32
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
  • rules = good, no rules = bad
Volatile, unpredictable, unreliable, inconsistent enforcement of the rules depending on a bad/good/average hair day = facism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
furthermore, it is up to her to enforce consistancy and identify inconsistancy within the mh department, not any of us
Not being allowed or being discouraged from issuing a rounded opinion with facts about the undergoing events = facism?
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 13:59   #33
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Volatile, unpredictable, unreliable, inconsistent enforcement of the rules depending on a bad/good/average hair day = facism.
Pretty much, their game, their server - their rules.
the same could be said of any game really which has a multiplayer component, or any forum for that matter on the internet.
You play/post on their servers, they have a final say over what happens on them and it is they who make the determination - it can be on any basis that they want too.
There is no democracy on the internet or free speech on privately owned servers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Not being allowed or being discouraged from issuing a rounded opinion with facts about the undergoing events = facism?
Whos stopped you from posting? All im saying is that it is not any of us who make the determination in the end.
We dont have a magic button which can change what the multihunters do, or what access people have to the game - they do.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 14:06   #34
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Pretty much, their game, their server - their rules.
Yeah. Indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
There is no democracy on the internet or free speech on privately owned servers
We're not pleading for democracy. We're questioning the consistency and reason behind the multihunter descisions, trying to find reasons to them (perhaps a badly made EULA, perhaps inconsistency between the judgement of different multihunters), and attempting to discuss what can be done about it. Even if democracy is obviously a feeble option, I thought that the game is currently being run more or less with community feedback taken into account. I apologize if it's different, and the game administration team wishes the community to shut the **** up (or at least if they wish to sweep topics they don't like under the carpet), and I'll not post another critique again. I sure hope, though, that critique is welcome. What I ment with facism, is the Soviet-like tendency to "silence" the sources of critique, in order to allow only a selected group of people to "identify inconsistencies" and "flaws", resulting in an illusion of a happy happy world.

ps. after your edit; point regarding "stopping from posting" dealt with above; you although hinted that the population isn't allowed to point out inconsistencies and issue critique on them ("furthermore, it is up to her to enforce consistancy and identify inconsistancy within the mh department, not any of us"). in my opinion, if there is gross inconsistency and misconduct observed in the rules enforcement, it needs to be taken up. by your suggestion, i'll think through formulating a post summarizing the recent developments (and beyond) and coming up with some ideas on it on the suggestions forum.

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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 14:14   #35
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I thought that the game is currently being run more or less with community feedback taken into account.
It is, to an extent. Things are suggested, discussed and then pateam decide if they want them in the game or not - they implement them in the way they see fit too.
Its not the case that the game or its policies are designed exclusively by the community.
Assuming facism and comparing pateam to a soviet style administration is daft since there would be no listening in the first place under such a regime.
I dont see anything that would indicate that you or bintara are being silenced by the administration over this. You're still posting arent you?
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 14:30   #36
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Assuming facism and comparing pateam to a soviet style administration is daft since there would be no listening in the first place under such a regime.
I dont see anything that would indicate that you or bintara are being silenced by the administration over this. You're still posting arent you?
Yes, it was a bit of an exaggeration as was yours "no rules = bad", "rules = good", where you realise it's daft to say rules equals good in all scenarios. Please allow a little bit of flexibility and common sense in the conversation, so I don't need to feel the necessity to bite you on any "rules is always good we need more to achieve bliss" -type comments.

I am posting.

I do not feel Bintara is being silenced, but in your behavior, you are continously trying to disencourage people from critisizing the actions of the multihunter team. In the wake of recent events, it seems that there are plenty of people in the community who would welcome an open discussion regarding the rules, even incorporating the multihunters to a further extent than just "We won't talk about it, it's our COC".
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 14:36   #37
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I do not feel Bintara is being silenced, but in your behavior, you are continously trying to disencourage people from critisizing the actions of the multihunter team.
If thats what you are interpreting from me, then it is a bit off from what my intentions were.
All im trying to do is point out the procedures to go through for certain situations and ultimately who to go to for it all.
the forums arent a good place to go for individual cases, but they are good for discussing general things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
In the wake of recent events, it seems that there are plenty of people in the community who would welcome an open discussion regarding the rules, even incorporating the multihunters to a further extent than just "We won't talk about it, it's our COC".
something for the suggestions forum as you hinted earlier?
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 14:39   #38
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Currently in this thread, you have smudge railing against fiery
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
this is about people taking the opportunity to push their own agendas

Note the "retired" under my username.

And for the record, yes the MH Team is one of the most under valued areas of PA where people expect them to be right all the time and when something goes wrong they expect an apology and re-opening, however it appears that some people may be too stubborn to apologise.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 14:47   #39
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
And for the record, yes the MH Team is one of the most under valued areas of PA where people expect them to be right all the time and when something goes wrong they expect an apology and re-opening, however it appears that some people may be too stubborn to apologise.
the multihunters always have been undervalued / hated / insulted / etc. Its a nasty job which only ever grinds you down. Very unrewarding work :/
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 16:35   #40
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Re: Rules enforcement

Firstly and most importantly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfather
If she had boobies like Appocco i doubt she would be dissed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
Indeed.
Appoco has manboobs which are indeed the definition of FTW
There might be some excuse for Allfather, but unless Smudge thinks I've been eating like Jamie and Oliver there's no way I have huge manboobs, and that's even before we take Fiery's attributes into consideration.

The situations referenced above aren't the same, despite the information that has been organised. I will attempt to paraphrase the situations and clarify the issue, despite fact this breaks the defacto rule about not discussing cases.

As referenced, B|nTaRa mailed Kileman to ask to land for XP. He sent several in-game e-mails, a few of which were replied to carefully by Kileman telling him all B|nTaRa would get was his ships turned into salvage. He said he was willing to lose the roids again, but wanted the XP, even to the MH.

This is against the rules, so he got closed.

arc said he was being fleet caught and requested that Keizari pull his fleet in return for roids. Keizari reported this (with parts of what was apparently a fair few converstations with Fiery quoted above) and pulled his fleet. arc never actually let Keizari steal the asteroids, and later explained that he was actually happily waiting to steal the Fi sent having already saved his ships. Keizari would have therefore pretty much lost the fleet catch and the roids, and his Fi fleet.
Apparently something which wasn't mentioned was Fiery apoligising to Keizari for not letting him send his Fi fleet and letting arc have the oppertunity to let himself be roided instead of stealing the ships. It's therefore an unproven issue, but it's very much in doubt as to whether arc was lying himself out of trouble or agreeing to a lesser evil of losing free roids instead of the loss of ships, hence arc still being open.

Hopefully this helps to clear up some of the issues.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 16:58   #41
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Of course i can see that inconsistancies are annoying, i find them annoying too but its an imperfect world.
It would be great if they could be enforced 100% in all cases equally - this is a highly desirable outcome, but i dont think they are being enforced all that inconsistantly, personally.
Though most of your points have already been addressed by Almeida and Keizari, I found this one unanswered, and especially strange. It's almost as if you're saying we might as well give up on trying to improve things, because then nothing will ever be perfect, so why bother doing anything at all.

Anyway, before this derails into a philosophical discussion, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this thread, and it seems to me that if you disagree (which is fine, of course), the best course of action would be to stop posting in it. You may have noticed you are currently the driving force behind the conversation.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 17:04   #42
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Though most of your points have already been addressed by Almeida and Keizari, I found this one unanswered, and especially strange. It's almost as if you're saying we might as well give up on trying to improve things, because then nothing will ever be perfect, so why bother doing anything at all.
You have misinterpreted.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 18:53   #43
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Re: Rules enforcement

well my personial opinion is that it was a bit hard punishment for a minor offense i mean it was no harm done really and what i can read out here that arc dude did more or less the same shit here, if arc is keept open then let the other dork be ópent too or close them both.


ps phil^ is a moron for keeping replying bs here
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 19:02   #44
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
phil^ is a moron for keeping replying bs here
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 20:10   #45
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Re: Rules enforcement

After reading those logs I'd say Arc's case was worse than Bintara, so if Bintara is closed so should Arc. None of them should however be closed though, no crime was committed (yet).
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 21:33   #46
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Re: Rules enforcement

It is more an issue of actual rules than the individual cases. While the inconsistency with the cases is obvious, the rules which in essence rely on reading and second-guessing players' minds allows for that inconsistency to happen.

Now, I'm not a law expert, but (recorded) conversations between people can't be used as the only evidence towards a crime even in reality. And I'm saying "even in reality", because people get killed in reality - so the stakes are much higher and consequences much more fatal.

You are playing (or running) a game here. I think that whoever thought of the rule which can get people closed for sending (non-abusive) messages wasn't quite aware of that.

Specifically, in the Bintara/Kileman case, no one should've been either warned or closed until (or unless) Kileman actually sent away his anti-FR in a suspicious direction and Bintara landed - in which case the deal would be obvious, and then both would be closed. Which would not happen anyway.

So we're talking about a case which has nothing to do with actual cheating and everything to do with EULA and the MH lacking common sense.

Is it so difficult to actually wait until the offense actually happens, and then close the people involved? You know, the universe won't explode if a few roids actually get farmed, and the players involved would be closed after it anyway.
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Unread 1 Jun 2007, 23:36   #47
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
As referenced, B|nTaRa mailed Kileman to ask to land for XP. He sent several in-game e-mails, a few of which were replied to carefully by Kileman telling him all B|nTaRa would get was his ships turned into salvage. He said he was willing to lose the roids again, but wanted the XP, even to the MH.
The Xp farming which never happened in true fashion, there was a mere suggestion of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
arc said he was being fleet caught and requested that Keizari pull his fleet in return for roids. Keizari reported this (with parts of what was apparently a fair few converstations with Fiery quoted above) and pulled his fleet. arc never actually let Keizari steal the asteroids, and later explained that he was actually happily waiting to steal the Fi sent having already saved his ships. Keizari would have therefore pretty much lost the fleet catch and the roids, and his Fi fleet.
Which never happened, so we can't be sure if his actual intent was to admit the roids or not. What you have, is him saying so after he's been advised to say so. Check my post regarding the rules attorney part. Also, I never recalled my fleet, saying so is blatant lies. All what's left of the incident is a suggestion to asteroid farm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appoco
Apparently something which wasn't mentioned was Fiery apoligising to Keizari
This was not mentioned to me, either. Actually, reading through my queries with the person in question, I don't find an apology. So you have me puzzled there. Let me know when you find the apology, so I can accept it. If Fiery apologized to me through you, I did not get that either. The facts are, we'll never know how the case would truly have resolved because of this. Although, the suggestion to roidfarm still remains. As does the suggestion of Bintara's, which was never resolved either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
It's therefore an unproven issue, but it's very much in doubt as to whether arc was lying himself out of trouble or agreeing to a lesser evil of losing free roids instead of the loss of ships, hence arc still being open.
So trying to talk yourself into landing a big hit is unapprovable, but trying to talk yourself out of loosing fleet isn't, through the same means of suggesting cheating to a second party? I'm still failing to see the point. The issue with arc is unproven, but it's clear there was a suggestion to roidfarm. The issue with Bintara never resolved in actual farming either, but there was a suggestion to roidfarm. It's bintara's suggestion being made worse by the fact that he tried to get himself land by suggesting formal cheating, and arc's case being made less worse by him suggesting himself being farmed? If it's so, then I've finally understood it, but it still puzzles me why this was worth getting a planet closed for and another totally off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
After reading those logs I'd say Arc's case was worse than Bintara, so if Bintara is closed so should Arc. None of them should however be closed though, no crime was committed (yet).
I don't know which one was worse, I find them rather similar. I agree, however, that neither should have been closed. A crime was commited on both cases (the EULA statement where it talks about encouraging people to cheat), but it's really hardly serious enough to get a planet closed for (given the amount of abusive language rules breaches a lot of people commit in their in game mails, for example).


edit. also, what is this fleetcatch we're talking about? I never noticed one.
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Unread 2 Jun 2007, 20:11   #48
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Re: Rules enforcement

I was thinking about posting something usefull here.. I reconsidered after the amount of text that was in the other posts. Cba to read it all at a saturday evening!
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Unread 2 Jun 2007, 21:59   #49
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Re: Rules enforcement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
No jer, he didnt.
Had he actually tried to read my posts with an open mind he wouldnt have come to the conclusion that im trying to justify what the mh did or did not do.
The same open mind you yourself often use to read other peoples posts yeah?
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Unread 2 Jun 2007, 22:02   #50
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Re: Rules enforcement

I have pointed out for a long time (in particular with respect to the support planet rule) that how a rule is enforced should not be down to how good you are at defending yourself.

This current case is the perfect demonstration why.
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